Episode #22 "Lombard"

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, Vincent Hanna said:

The first season of the original Star Trek was pretty damn good too.

Yep. I can think of a few others, too, but they're mostly early FX shows.

[Augusta]

On 3/27/2022 at 11:57 AM, Vincent Hanna said:

The first season of the original Star Trek was pretty damn good too.

LOL, that's so true!  

Hey, but I was too young to remember whether Star Trek was considered so good right off the bat during it's first season (Like Miami Vice obviously was), or if Trek's recognition of 1st season quality caught on more in the rerun life, than in it's premiere life.  

Anyone know?  You've got me curious.

[Augusta]

Haha, it's almost a needless effort to compliment this Season-1 episode.  If it's Season-ONE, you can blindfold yourself, stuff cotton in your ears, and have your sister tie your ankles so you can't go to the bathroom or fridge for the whole hour----you could feel the vibrations of the tv speakers coming up through the carpet, and it would STILL FEEL LIKE THERE'S A STELLAR EPISODE coming up through your toes.  

I don't like mobster-themes, (really, I can't even stand Casino, or Goodfellas, Donnie Brasco, etc).  But Lombard I have to give respect to, well earned.

[king77]

45 minutes ago, Augusta said:

LOL, that's so true!  

Hey, but I was too young to remember whether Star Trek was considered so good right off the bat during it's first season (Like Miami Vice obviously was), or if Trek's recognition of 1st season quality caught on more in the rerun life, than in it's premiere life.  

Anyone know?  You've got me curious.

The original Star Trek was almost canceled after the first season until fans wrote NBC in support. Even then it was it only lasted 2 more seasons before being canceled.

[Vincent Hanna]

I kind of wish MV kept the slightly-serialised format they used in S1. It was pretty groundbreaking and much prefer that to the purely standalone episodes of S2 or serialised shows like Breaking Bad that feel like a 60 hour movie broken up into chunks.

It felt like a real interconnected world where they're constantly referring back to past events over multiple episodes like Crockett's relationship with his ex-wife and kid, Calderone, New Lt. Castillo butting heads with C&Ts, Golden Triangle two-parter. Lombard etc.

Season 2 hardly had any of that besides Pam Grier and Angelina.

[Robbie C.]

23 minutes ago, Vincent Hanna said:

I kind of wish MV kept the slightly-serialised format they used in S1. It was pretty groundbreaking and much prefer that to the purely standalone episodes of S2 or serialised shows like Breaking Bad that feel like a 60 hour movie broken up into chunks.

It felt like a real interconnected world where they're constantly referring back to past events over multiple episodes like Crockett's relationship with his ex-wife and kid, Calderone, New Lt. Castillo butting heads with C&Ts, Golden Triangle two-parter. Lombard etc.

Season 2 hardly had any of that besides Pam Grier and Angelina.

Actually the semi-serialized format had been done before, most notably at this time with Hill Street Blues (where Yerkovich worked for some time). His departure from Vice may have had something to do with that aspect fading into the background for the most part.

[ViceFanMan]

I love this episode, and the character of Al Lombard! I still say the 5th season episode “World of Trouble” should have been tweaked & elongated out to be the 2hr series finale instead of “Freefall”.

But, this episode was really cool, amazing performances, and “deep”!  However, there’s one scene I find somewhat unrealistic & humorous. After the attempt on Lombard’s life by Labrizzi’s assassins...Lombard has Labrizzi’s warehouse torched. While checking it out, and standing talking with Tubbs in the middle of the warehouse, while some of the fire is still burning & firefighters are trying to put it out, Crockett stands there smoking his Lucky. 

I’m sorry, but even in the 80s I would not think you’d be allowed to, or even want to, smoke in a location that was purposely set on fire—especially since it was a revenge arson job & they most likely used an accelerant of some kind. Flick a hot ash, or the butt itself down somewhere & there might be another explosion, lol!  

No biggie by any means & this was still a superb episode! 

PS.  I especially love the Florida Villas filming location...wish they were still there! I probably actually could have afforded to stay in those if I took a vacation to Miami!  

[dragon48]

I haven't yet read all the previous posts, but my opinion on this episode differs from the few good reviews I did see:

I don’t like the first season’s finale “Lombard” at all.  Lombard had Crockett’s good friend Barbara Carrow killed in the episode, “One Eyed Jack,” yet Sonny and Ricardo are far too chummy with the mobster.  I understand it was their job to protect him, but if they didn’t want to be confrontational, they could have just been perfunctory with conversation.  To be fair for the analysis, Crockett is visibly upset having to be in Lombards presence in a protective role, but that’s not enough. 

Let’s examine some interactions.  At the safe house, Lombard orders Tubbs to go out and buy the ingredients for homemade Vermicelli.  The detective takes the orders as if he were his servant.  Later, Tubbs just takes it, when Lombard gives him a hard time for having picked up powdered garlic instead of fresh garlic cloves.  Really?  That same night, Crockett went out of his way to further conversation – “Are you close with your son?”  On the scene on the yacht, just before the trial, Sonny finally breaks a little, reminding Lombard that he had Barbara Carrow killed, however, neither this, nor his retort to Lombards statement about the cost doing of business – “Tell that to his wife and Kids,” come with sufficient emotions.  Later in that scene, Crockett shows genuine concern for Lombards life and safety, when he inquires, “Are you a little nervous about tomorrow?”  Really?  The mobster had his good friend shot in the back of the head execution style, to be later found in pond!  In the second to last scene, while at the courthouse, Crockett has a big smile on his face when stating, “But if I ever catch you dirty, you’re mine.”  The scene played out like two 13-year-old kids arguing at a playground, with both of them trying to keep their “cool.”  This isn’t a game, it’s real with real consequences, and Detective James “Sonny” Crockett should have been more serious and threatening.

I’ve been binge-watching the series in order, and when I got to “Lombard,” I remembered why I didn’t like the episode.  The way it portrayed the detectives’ character was out of place and gives me very bad vibes every time I watch it.

Edited August 3, 2022 by dragon48

[OCBman]

2 hours ago, dragon48 said:

I haven't yet read all the previous posts, but my opinion on this episode differs from the few good reviews I did see:

I don’t like the first season’s finale “Lombard” at all.  Lombard had Crockett’s good friend Barbara Carrow killed in the episode, “One Eyed Jack,” yet Sonny and Ricardo are far too chummy with the mobster.  I understand it was their job to protect him, but if they didn’t want to be confrontational, they could have just been perfunctory with conversation.  To be fair for the analysis, Crockett is visibly upset having to be in Lombards presence in a protective role, but that’s not enough. 

Let’s examine some interactions.  At the safe house, Lombard orders Tubbs to go out and buy the ingredients for homemade Vermicelli.  The detective takes the orders as if he were his servant.  Later, Tubbs just takes it, when Lombard gives him a hard time for having picked up powdered garlic instead of fresh garlic cloves.  Really?  That same night, Crockett went out of his way to further conversation – “Are you close with your son?”  On the scene on the yacht, just before the trial, Sonny finally breaks a little, reminding Lombard that he had Barbara Carrow killed, however, neither this, nor his retort to Lombards statement about the cost doing of business – “Tell that to his wife and Kids,” come with sufficient emotions.  Later in that scene, Crockett shows genuine concern for Lombards life and safety, when he inquires, “Are you a little nervous about tomorrow?”  Really?  The mobster had his good friend shot in the back of the head execution style, to be later found in pond!  In the second to last scene, while at the courthouse, Crockett has a big smile on his face when stating, “But if I ever catch you dirty, you’re mine.”  The scene played out like two 13-year-old kids arguing at a playground, with both of them trying to keep their “cool.”  This isn’t a game, it’s real with real consequences, and Detective James “Sonny” Crockett should have been more serious and threatening.

I’ve been binge-watching the series in order, and when I got to “Lombard,” I remembered why I didn’t like the episode.  The way it portrayed the detectives’ character was out of place and gives me very bad vibes every time I watch it.

I believe witnessing the strained relationship between Lombard and his son, "humanized" the villain somewhat for Crockett. However, I completely understand what you're saying about C&T bending over backwards for Lombard. Especially when you compare his treatment against the treatment of Joey Bramlette, another person in protective custody, but not nearly the criminal background. With that being said, I still really enjoy the episode.   

[ViceFanMan]

Lombard actually didn’t have Barbara Carrow killed, though. It was done without his consent or knowledge...and as he told Crockett later, it was bad for business & caused a lot of problems. Despite the fact that yes he was a gangster, Lombard wasn’t exactly a psychotic killer. 

[Miami Beau]

Reading through these comments, I can see good points on both sides.
It’s tricky because Crockett himself even says to Lombard after he saves him, “Just doing my job”. Well in that case, to be consistent, Crockett should not have engaged so much in the proceeding dinner conversation. 

Its jarring because you have the scene before it when they all enter the safe house and Crockett acts very cold towards Lombard. Then the next scene after they’ve all eaten, Crockett’s suddenly very chummy towards him. 

One positive from all of this, is that when we get to World Of Trouble, Crockett’s warm attitude towards Lombard in that episode is indeed consistent with how both parties were when we last saw them in Season 1. 

Point being, it would of been equally as jarring had Crockett been very cold towards Lombard in Season 5, which luckily he wasn’t. 

[Robbie C.]

I honestly think the production team had forgotten about Barbara in any case by this time. Backstory continuity wasn't really a "thing" when it came to Crockett most of the time, at least when it came to how episodes ended up on screen. 

[RedDragon86]

I think even at the dinner table Sonny still has a bit of resentment towards Al in areas, that look of distrust at him when when he was about to drink his coffee was clearly there.

Sonny came across to me as indifferent, I don't think he was being nice, he was faking it so the time with Al wouldn't feel awkward. I mean he cannot sit there giving him the evil eye all night.

Just my opinion.

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

12 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

Reading through these comments, I can see good points on both sides.
It’s tricky because Crockett himself even says to Lombard after he saves him, “Just doing my job”. Well in that case, to be consistent, Crockett should not have engaged so much in the proceeding dinner conversation. 

Its jarring because you have the scene before it when they all enter the safe house and Crockett acts very cold towards Lombard. Then the next scene after they’ve all eaten, Crockett’s suddenly very chummy towards him. 

One positive from all of this, is that when we get to World Of Trouble, Crockett’s warm attitude towards Lombard in that episode is indeed consistent with how both parties were when we last saw them in Season 1. 

Point being, it would of been equally as jarring had Crockett been very cold towards Lombard in Season 5, which luckily he wasn’t. 

I think over time they wanted Crockett to realize that Al Lombard wasn’t just your regular gangster/thug.  Once Crockett realized that Lombard didn’t know about, want or like the death of Barbara Carrow...and he wasn’t just going around killing and blowing away everyone who got in the way, Sonny realized Al wasn’t all bad. He had a human side as well.

Plus, both Crockett & Lombard had families that were hurt or destroyed by their careers. Granted, one career was illegal activities, another trying to stop those activities...but neither were able to prevent their families from getting hurt (or killed), although both tried to prevent that. In a bizarre way Crockett & Lombard had some things in common.

I think they had Crockett realize what Lombard had gone through regarding his family, and Crockett could relate and feel for him. They were never going to be best buddies by any means, but Sonny realized that Al Lombard wasn’t a psycho gangster (such as Frank Mosca). 

[Matt5]

19 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I think over time they wanted Crockett to realize that Al Lombard wasn’t just your regular gangster/thug.  Once Crockett realized that Lombard didn’t know about, want or like the death of Barbara Carrow...and he wasn’t just going around killing and blowing away everyone who got in the way, Sonny realized Al wasn’t all bad. He had a human side as well.

Plus, both Crockett & Lombard had families that were hurt or destroyed by their careers. Granted, one career was illegal activities, another trying to stop those activities...but neither were able to prevent their families from getting hurt (or killed), although both tried to prevent that. In a bizarre way Crockett & Lombard had some things in common.

I think they had Crockett realize what Lombard had gone through regarding his family, and Crockett could relate and feel for him. They were never going to be best buddies by any means, but Sonny realized that Al Lombard wasn’t a psycho gangster (such as Frank Mosca). 

You could see that by World of Trouble in Season 5 they did respect each other.

[apocalypse]

The only issue with the World of Trouble was that Lombard's son was a different actor. The guy who played his son in this original Lombard episode had a lot of screen time and performed quite well. Too bad they didn't care for this kind of details too much. 

[ViceFanMan]

42 minutes ago, apocalypse said:

The only issue with the World of Trouble was that Lombard's son was a different actor. The guy who played his son in this original Lombard episode had a lot of screen time and performed quite well. Too bad they didn't care for this kind of details too much. 

Yeah, back then sometimes they would get a different actor to play the same part in different episodes. It could have been the original actor who played Lombard’s son wasn’t available to be in “World of Trouble”. They had 2 different women playing Castillo’s ex-wife, too

[jpaul1]

may sound futile for some, but just realizing that in the 80s the RAM wasn't a pickup, but a van

Edited November 12, 2022 by jpaul1

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

may sound futile for some, but just realizing that in the 80s the RAM wasn't a pickup, but a van

Actually it was both...Dodge had Ram models for both trucks & vans. Here’s a pic of a 1985 Dodge Ram pickup truck: 

[Dadrian]

If random access memory serves me correctly, they’ve always had Ram trucks and vans—even now. 

[ViceFanMan]

35 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

If random access memory serves me correctly, they’ve always had Ram trucks and vans—even now. 

Yeah, the vans aren’t as prevalent now...but, for businesses, schools, churches, etc...they might still have some Ram panel and/or multiple passenger vans. 

[Dadrian]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

Yeah, the vans aren’t as prevalent now...but, for businesses, schools, churches, etc...they might still have some Ram panel and/or multiple passenger vans. 

Yes. I see them every day at work. That’s how I know.  

[ViceFanMan]

Just now, Dadrian said:

Yes. I see them every day at work. That’s how I know.  

I see one every week, and have driven it several times before, as my church has a white multiple passenger Dodge Ram van. However, it’s not necessarily new. I’m thinking it’s probably an early to mid 2000s model. 

[Robbie C.]

Of course Ram is also more or less a separate brand now (still part of Dodge, but they don't usually add Dodge to anything any more...it's just Ram). At least that's how corporate has approached it since 2010. They started using the Ram designation in 1980, so that van would have been fairly new on the whole.

[Dadrian]

12 hours ago, Dadrian said:

 

If random access memory serves me correctly

 

I see we have no computer nerds here…