Episode 100- To have and to hold (aka Second Chance)

[airtommy]

I was looking at 1255 NE 95th St a few days ago.  It's very close to what we're looking for, but the configuration is reversed and the back yard is a bit too small.

 

[miamijimf]

Tom,

Never heard of zoning restrictions on the number of stories but I will look around.  That house does not have the Gables look to me.  Wooden houses there are rare and just about  everywhere in the Miami area except for Little Havana (really Shenandoah, Allapattah ertc) that has just about every type of construction you can imagine so that's a possibility.  Why did you not include the Grove as a possibility or did I miss something?  N. Miami is a real possibility also.  Could it be aluminum siding and not wood?

[Tom]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb miamijimf:

Tom,

Never heard of zoning restrictions on the number of stories but I will look around.  That house does not have the Gables look to me.  Wooden houses there are rare and just about  everywhere in the Miami area except for Little Havana (really Shenandoah, Allapattah ertc) that has just about every type of construction you can imagine so that's a possibility.  Why did you not include the Grove as a possibility or did I miss something?  N. Miami is a real possibility also.  Could it be aluminum siding and not wood?

I looked at the Grove too but in the cheaper areas that match the house price we see there is no such green garden and the green lush areas are to expensive and too exotic in vegetation.

The house looks like wood, the roof (not clearly visible on the one story garden building) could be aluminum too.

if there is no story restriction why no house has a second floor?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Tom

[Tom]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb airtommy:

I was looking at 1255 NE 95th St a few days ago.  It's very close to what we're looking for, but the configuration is reversed and the back yard is a bit too small.

 

Thanks, that is quite a close match and one of the best suspects among all the others, although not the right one. At least it´s a 2-story building, which is a rarity.

[Tom]

I did another round of search for the Ballard house after another careful scrutiny of the episode, but cannot find it anywhere (from NW/NE 200 down to SW200). North of Miami Dade there seems to be no area with such size and greenery.

This is a quite large garden property with very heavy greenery in front (long green driveway), around (neighbors) and on the lot (tree in the middle) and between (hedges), which excludes a lot of potential lots, but no luck. I am sure now that the road behind the property runs in approx. 30-50m distance which is not enough for another property and there is a rare angle with a green hedge behind Crockett that I have never noticed before, where we can see there is no other house between him and the other parallel street (see pic below).

All the one-house rows per block I´ve found (mainly in Miami Shores and around) have much too small property sizes left to accommodate what we see on TV (estimation: 10m+ long driveway from street to entrance, 10m+ house length from entrance to garden, 50m+ garden length from house to street  and 25m+ width from house to neighbor; alltogether a 50mx100m property size...)

And still no more 2 story houses found than last time (all are 1 story only, easy to see from above).

I am completely stumped.

If they tore down this house and we need to take historic aerials to search, we will never find it. Search area simply too big.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Tom

[Tom]

BALLARD HOUSE: UNKNOWN LOCATION STILL

Driving me nuts, I checked whole Miami Dade top to bottom but to no avail.

Updated sketch with some details that I observed recently. e.g. the width of the long part sticking out in the garden is quite limited. This seems to be an extension that was done at a later stage as the color differences between the house and the garden part reveal. We get a quick glimpse of the other side of that extension through a window to estimate the width. This means that the broad main part of the house is much bigger than the "finger" sticking out.

It also reflects how green the surrounding is. There are non-tropical trees and bushes everywhere, in front of the house (quite off from the street), on both sides, in the garden, in the garden next to it. This looks like deep Coconut Grove or Hammock Lakes only without palm trees. I doubt that they chopped all trees, so that should remain as a hint.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Tom

[Tom]

BALLARD HOUSE - REVISED LOCATION SKETCH (NEW EVIDENCE FOUND) AND NEW SEARCH CRITERIA

On further scrutiny of episode stills I found new evidence that impacts our prior location assumption and the sketch considerably.

1. There seems to be NO Street running parallel to the house/behind the garden of the house (we always looked out for 1 house on one street block eg like in Miami Shores) at least not in close distance. In one still behind Crockett we see endless greenery an high vegetation indicating there is NO neighbour at all on the "other side" of the property, i.e. at the end of the garden.
2. A second hint backing up the first is that I found out that the cars running behind Crockett (3 cars in approx.20 seconds and the speed indicate this is a major street!) are not running parallel to the front of the house, but in a nearly 90 degree angle to it, i.e. the street runs roughly parallel to the garden "finger" building next to Crockett&Caroline! (direction of driving shown in picture below). The street is 2-way and can either be 90 degrees to the Ballard house front street or slightly diagonally to it.
3. The vegetation behind the garden "finger" building part and behind Crockett derived from the seating directions of Caroline and Crockett plus the estimated distance between Crockett and the cars running on the street of 50-70m indicates that there is NO neighbour house between the Ballard home and the major street running next to it, i.e. I assume that Ballard home is a corner property with a lot of garden between it and the street or the neighbor lot is slim and was empty!
4. The width of the finger building part is less than the main building part´s width. This can be seen briefly by the short glimpse we get to see through the finger building through a window on the other side where we also see sky and a part of the big tree behind it but no other house blocking the view! Another hint there is no neighbouring house behind it!

With these clues, I have adapted my search and my sketch. Of course, that excludes many areas we have focused on before (Miami Shores with slim 1 house per block areas) and brings new ones in play. After finding Ballards "Atlanta" condo in Child´s play on Thursday I still have preference for the NE/NW grid of the city due to non-tropical vegetation needs of this location.

 

[Tom]

as @daytona365 is such a great Dr. Watson and found the Vote of confidence house tonight with one of my clues, I have another clue for him !

Please Dr. Watson, do your job! Your Sherlock Holmes

P.S. I already searched a bit for that number -which is written in reverse on that box - and it´s too big for a box number of U haul!(and coincidentally fits to areas of Miami where I had suspected that house anyway....)

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Tom

[Tom]

In the last two weeks we have adopted a new theory based on @daytona365´s input and a sketch he showed me. 

The house might not be T-shaped like in my sketch, but rather just one long building, with the 1-story "finger" sticking out not in a 90 degree angle but just being the room we see behind the living room whereas the rest of the building is a 2-story construction. This would mean that the street we see behind Crockett in the garden might be the same street running along the frontside of the house.

This new theory has a lot of good arguments and would also offer good or even better explanations for some details revealed in the episode.

Unfortunately, even with this new assumption we haven´t found it yet despite heavy searches all around Dade and Broward, but we will. 

So far, it is safe to classify what we are looking for:

• a classic American house (Four Square, wooden facade)
• some bay windows on both floors and the main body as 2-story but some parts as a 1-story construction
• built most likely around 1940 or between 1940 and 1970 (indicates it is in a rather old part of the city), but massively modernized (e.g. we see a decent new floor with contemporary A/C outlets in the floor), also backed up by the old stony fountain we see in the backyard corner)
• it must be at a busy street (we see three fast running trucks/cars within a few seconds behind Crockett)
• much (non tropical) lush vegetation all around the house also on the driveway (there is a house visible across the street)
• on a big lot with hardly any neighbor(s houses) visible but lots of vegetation around
• areas: we found some 2-3 similar homes e.g. in SW grid at 15585 Old Cutler Road, at 3245 Riviera Drive in Coral Gables and 4401 Banyan Lane in Morningside respectively, but also other areas  within or outside of Miami are possible (e.g. north of Dade, e.g. Lauderdale-Plantation, Davie, ....). The close matches we have found so far helped to sharpen the search criteria above, esp. age and style.

Personally I do not believe that it was in Coconut Grove, as the lot size, the busy street and the vegetation would mostly not fit. Of course, vegetation can change over the years (at the Aventura location of Ballard´s home in Child´s play there are a lot of tropical palm trees now around the condos that were not around in 1987 when it was posing as an Atlanta neigbourhood), but even in 1988 it was nearly impossible to find a lot in the Grove without palm trees, Banyans or other tropical plants around.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Tom

[Tom]

for those who are interested in the status of the search for the unknown Ballard house: we have not given up on it and @daytona365 and I have found another 5-6 close matches according to our criteria defined above, all within the SW grid between 120 and 160 street and all built between 1920 and 1965.

Some close matches are:

https://www.redfin.com/FL/Miami/7360-SW-123rd-Ter-33156/home/42913908

https://www.redfin.com/FL/Pinecrest/7781-Palmetto-Ct-33156/home/42920422

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/13601-SW-80th-Ct_Palmetto-Bay_FL_33158_M50122-83582#photo3

https://www.redfin.com/FL/Palmetto-Bay/15800-SW-79th-Ave-33157/home/43163513

https://www.redfin.com/FL/Miami/13875-SW-100th-Ave-33176/home/43162962

Given the geographical distribution of the close matches so far, likelihood has increased that this house is in the south. It also proves that this kind of house may be found within Greater Miami, even in the middle of much younger architecture.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Tom

[Tom]

The Pendroza villa 46 Star Island is for sale. For a mere 45 million. 

Nice pictures from this location in the 100th episode. The pool has been shifted many years ago and is not at the same place. The baths have been massively remodelled, but the living room on the ground floor is well recognizable.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/46-Star-Island-Dr_Miami-Beach_FL_33139_M54128-12979

[Tom]

Still searching for Ballard´s home and I hope that this is not it (see picture). No kidding, but that is the only colonial style classic home with bay windows in Miami that I could find...

 

[Tom]

Unbelievable that we still haven´t found this house, even on historic aerials.

This is a good close match in age, style and interior (e.g. floor), quite close to the other Coral Gables locations and at a busy street as well.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/4750-SW-57th-Ave_Miami_FL_33155_M57539-35849#photo0

 

[Tom]

Another close match in Miami Shores that has been massively expanded since 1986, but is unfortunately a wash. One crew member remembers that the unknown Ballard house was in Miami Shores or south of it. I am not so sure anymore as we have systematically searched every corner of the city now including historic aerials and no find.

 

[Tom]

Another similar house in Miami Shores that has even the same entrance door pattern, but is yet a wash.

[C Glide]

I remember about 15+ years ago, I believe it was airtommy that found a real estate add for a house on the market that advertised it as being in Miami Vice. I never could place it in an episode and as far as I know neither did anyone else. It was south of Miami Shores in Morningside. I will try to take a look at that today and attempt to relocate it. I know I have pictures from the street. Not a high probability but worth another look.

[C Glide]

Found my pictures of it. False alarm, not it. Wrong style.

[Tom]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb C Glide:

Found my pictures of it. False alarm, not it. Wrong style.

I was just about to post the same. I remember this Morningside home and it never appeared in the show.

And, believe, me @daytona365and I have searched Miami and up to Broward top to bottom many times for this house in the last 6 months with the most systematic search effort ever. We even have a perfect sketch of the house. But nothing. Nada. Zilch. This is the biggest location mystery left. Because everything else we found within weeks after we started to look professionally. This one we haven´t found within months despite 150+ of hours spent on it (by me alone, daytona365 has maybe invested the same or even more on it...)

Edited February 8, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

another hot candidate. the first with bay window and at the right place. It´s in Palm Beach with some similar gardens and houses around.

This is a home designed by famous architect Maurice Fatio, who was from Palm Beach but also designed lots of homes in the Miami area. Built in 1940. Just sold for 7,9 mio USD.

https://www.redfin.com/FL/Palm-Beach/260-El-Pueblo-Way-33480/home/42431332

Edited July 21, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

Nice article including some pictures that explains the colonial style elements and basically leads to conclusion that the unknown Ballard house is a colonial revival style home (as proven by bay windows) built most likely between 1920 and 1950.

https://thecraftsmanblog.com/colonial-revival-style/

 

[Tom]

Before anyone, including @daytona365start hyperventilating, it´s NOT THE house 

But I found some striking similarities between the Palm Beach colonial revival home at 260 El Pueblo Way I posted months ago above, designed by Maurice Fatio and the unknown Ballard home that are worth mentioning and could help finding it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Fatio

Let´s summarize:

• built in 1940
• bay windows which is a clear sign that it is colonial REVIVAL style built after 1920, mostly 1930-40 (the Colonial originals built  before 1920 did NOT have bay windows and strict window codes regarding to number and location)
• similarities in the one story part sticking out to the left
• similarities in the attached buildings parts/corners to the right
• matches in door types and patterns (e.g. the big 3x3 segregated window, the exit doors), clearly visible on the backside (poolside).

Conclusions:

• 100% colonial revival style
• maybe the same architect? The elements shown here are typical for Colonial revival and were not just done by one designer, but I checked other Fatio designed homes in Palm Beach and Miami but haven´t found anything.
• for sure built around 1940 (this means that it must be in an area that was extended and accessible by road around that time, e.g. areas like Palm Beach or Morningside/Miami Shores, near Old Cutler, but for sure not in the middle of nowhere like Pinecrest far off)

P.S. To show the similarity of layout I used a great professional sketch of the unknown Ballard home done by daytona365 some time ago that has not been published so far. I added a copyright note on his behalf to indicate where it´s from, I hope you don´t mind brother, but at this stage I cling to every straw we have and hope that this publication will help us or maybe others reading this to find it.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

@daytona365Found more Maurice Fatio designed homes in Palm Beach with striking similarities to our mystic Ballard house. The first pic is a Palm Beach home built 1930. It also has the bay window and the same colonial revival style plus lush vegetation around. The fountain in the other Palm Beach home is more neo classic but also similar to the one in the episode.

What is extremely exciting in similarity is the layout of this and the other bay window home. The circle driveway, location of the only bay window, the distribution of building parts with some corners and and the garage or driveway on the right side fully matches with THATH and seems to be the same with most Fatio homes. See also the aerial view comparison of the El Pueblo home above.

The last two pics is a Fatio colonial revival home at 1240 Cocoanut, Boca Raton, very close to Miami and very similar to the Ballard home. It is protected and I have attached the full protection document that gives great insight in the typical features of colonial revival homes (e.g. bay window, equally distributed windows, centered door with forward pediment above, .... The document also gives names of other similar architects of that era and style and addresses of other similar homes in the area. 

https://npgallery.nps.gov/GetAsset/69f72fad-bdd8-482d-b23f-12b2b14931af

Edited August 24, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

ATTACK IN RESTAURANT: "NEW" LOCATION FOUND / OLD LOCATION ASSUMPTION WAS WRONG

@airtommy@miamijimf@C Glide

You can call me crazy, but today it flashed me that that the attack in "Silvio´s" (exterior in LA) restaurant that we always thought was filmed inside the Salero at South Miami Ave was indeed the good old Carlyle at 1250 Ocean Drive!

Apart fromthe fact that they filmed a scene with Castillo and Guerreo in this episode on the Carlyle porch: many small details match: the round spotlight ceiling, the red neon strings, the red shell shaped chairs, the windows, the distinctively shaped mirror on the wall, the floor and .... we can even see Ocean Drive and part of the Carlyle typical fence pattern outside the window. The best comparison we have with Back in the world as it had many interior Carlyle scenes. See below!

Unbelievable that I never noticed that before.  But they made it very difficult to see, as thez used lots of fast cuts in this shooting scene. The ceiling is pretty much the same today, but the stage where the piano was is gone. See last picture for the current look.

So,now I am properly warmed up for finding the Ballard house ! 

As always: click to enlarge!

 

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Tom

[daytona365]

On 8/24/2021 at 1:10 PM, Tom said:

@daytona365Found more Maurice Fatio designed homes in Palm Beach with striking similarities to our mystic Ballard house. The first pic is a Palm Beach home built 1930. It also has the bay window and the same colonial revival style plus lush vegetation around. The fountain in the other Palm Beach home is more neo classic but also similar to the one in the episode.

What is extremely exciting in similarity is the layout of this and the other bay window home. The circle driveway, location of the only bay window, the distribution of building parts with some corners and and the garage or driveway on the right side fully matches with THATH and seems to be the same with most Fatio homes. See also the aerial view comparison of the El Pueblo home above.

The last two pics is a Fatio colonial revival home at 1240 Cocoanut, Boca Raton, very close to Miami and very similar to the Ballard home. It is protected and I have attached the full protection document that gives great insight in the typical features of colonial revival homes (e.g. bay window, equally distributed windows, centered door with forward pediment above, .... The document also gives names of other similar architects of that era and style and addresses of other similar homes in the area. 

https://npgallery.nps.gov/GetAsset/69f72fad-bdd8-482d-b23f-12b2b14931af

Yeah, this one comes REALLY REALLY close, except the roof edge facing the wrong way no wood siding. The Bay windows basically look identical. There is a great chance that the Ballard house was indeed designed by Fatio (who happened to be of Swiss origin btw.). The overall layout is pretty much exactly as we have have imagined it, even the recessed part of the main house, just mirrored. I have checked a bunch of houses in Boca Raton and Palm beach since you came up with Fatio's name, however to no avail so far. Historic aerials are just a mess on these areas and not helpful at all. There are some historic districts in both areas that I'm going to take a closer look at, hoping that the house does still exist and will be identifiable on Google maps or Bing bird's view.

Edited September 2, 2021 by daytona365

[Tom]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb daytona365:

Yeah, this one comes REALLY REALLY close, except the roof edge facing the wrong way no wood siding. The Bay windows basically look identical. There is a great chance that the Ballard house was indeed designed by Fatio (who happened to be of Swiss origin btw.). The overall layout is pretty much exactly as we have have imagined it, even the recessed part of the main house, just mirrored. I have checked a bunch of houses in Boca Raton and Palm beach since you came up with Fatio's name, however to no avail so far. Historic aerials are a mess on these areas and not helpful at all. There are some historic districts in both areas that I will take a closer look at, hoping that the house does still exist and will be identifiable on Google maps or Bing bird's view.

Fatio built and designed around 200 houses from Palm Beach to Miami. There is a complete list somewhere. But most features of the Ballard house were commonly used and any other designer could have done this too.

I think the key is the bushy neighborhood and the fact that the house needs to be located in an area that was well accessible in 1930-40. So areas far off with no other houses around in 1930s will not work.

I’m convinced the house is still there. Americans don’t raze such a classic home. Except for a hurricane I would not know an reason why. And so far all Vice locations have survived weatherwise.

What do you say about the Salero interior by the way?