Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 19 hours ago, Tom said: While I agree with you in case of The Maze (I brought up that unrealistic VICE involvement in the first place), I disagree with the other examples mentioned (Shadow, Home Invaders) as these were explainable or close to reality, at least at that time. In both cases, like in some others (e.g. Baby blues, Little Miss Dangerous, Baseballs of death-teaser/opening, Honor among thieves-kill string with pure cocaine), VICE was asked/ordered to help, either because the case had a VICE angle to it due to a hooker, drugs in play, victim with a VICE "jacket" or the case had so much public urgency that homicide or robbery alone could not handle it and politicians needed to show engagement. If you want to cite other unrealistic VICE involvement in cases in the series: how about Free Verse? This one is even more stupid as they would have blown their cover with this engagement! Why are undercover detectives like Crockett, Switek and Zito openly guarding a poet in front of TV cameras at the airport (Crockett hurried cameras away and covered his face for the same reason in "Red Tape")? You've convinced me with Vice division working those other cases, and I think the show was all about doing different things, so I'm cool with wherever direction they wanted to go (like Don Johnson said in that 2014 Rolling Stone interview, the show was so malleable). Plus, I love the "Manhunter"-esque 'Shadow in the Dark' and I enjoyed more Castillo in 'Home Invaders' (how about that Hair Emporium though? Poor poodle). Now, "Free Verse" is a case of the show trying something different, incorporating poetry into an episode (sort of like how the later 'Everybody's in Showbiz' has a theater angle to it; I love the ironic/snarky titles of season 3!). I enjoy poetry and write a ton myself (yes, free verse), so I like the episode a lot, even though I doubt Vice crew would be chosen as a babysitter for a political dissident:-). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Am 28.3.2016 um 18:44 schrieb Miami Vice 1984: I like Fish and Chips but that one hasn't been viewed much. Fish and Chips isn't my favorite song. I love "She's a liar". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Of course, not every Vice sequence can be explained logically. Actually, de Vice people are responsible for drugs and prostitution, but topics that go in a completely different direction are also discussed. I think that has to do with the fact that the series would have gotten boring quickly had it only been about the cases mentioned above. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, Christine said: Of course, not every Vice sequence can be explained logically. Actually, de Vice people are responsible for drugs and prostitution, but topics that go in a completely different direction are also discussed. I think that has to do with the fact that the series would have gotten boring quickly had it only been about the cases mentioned above. I like shows that are willing to experiment, and maybe not all of Vice's experiments paid off (I don't care, I like the bull semen-fueled 'Cows of October' episode:-), but it was always willing to take those risks, and that I approve & applaud. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewRemington Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said: I like shows that are willing to experiment, and maybe not all of Vice's experiments paid off (I don't care, I like the bull semen-fueled 'Cows of October' episode:-), but it was always willing to take those risks, and that I approve & applaud. While I think “Cows of October” is a pretty poor episode, I agree! I like when shows are willing to take risks! I think the whole point of television is to entertain! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 vor 12 Stunden schrieb AndrewRemington: I think the whole point of television is to entertain! These shows never claim that they show real things. Of course they had advisors, but it was a show not a documentation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 vor 12 Stunden schrieb AndrewRemington: While I think “Cows of October” is a pretty poor episode, I agree! I like when shows are willing to take risks! I think the whole point of television is to entertain! MV as a whole was a risk and built on a new and therefore naturally risky idea respectively. That´s what MV was all about in the first place! It will be remembered in 100 years because it was a game changer. Thank god that they went for it! I remember that Michael Mann often told directors to try out new things and take risks and not to go a safe route just for the sake of being safe. In my opinion it is therefore also a legitimate way to do off-beat episodes like Cows of October or Missing Hours as well. But, to do 3 of those nearly in a row (Big Thaw, Missing hours, Cows) is a bit too much and is just risk for risk´s sake. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 30 minutes ago, Tom said: But, to do 3 of those nearly in a row (Big Thaw, Missing hours, Cows) is a bit too much and is just risk for risk´s sake. More of a punt than a risk, IMO. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Tom said: MV as a whole was a risk and built on a new and therefore naturally risky idea respectively. That´s what MV was all about in the first place! It will be remembered in 100 years because it was a game changer. Thank god that they went for it! I remember that Michael Mann often told directors to try out new things and take risks and not to go a safe route just for the sake of being safe. In my opinion it is therefore also a legitimate way to do off-beat episodes like Cows of October or Missing Hours as well. But, to do 3 of those nearly in a row (Big Thaw, Missing hours, Cows) is a bit too much and is just risk for risk´s sake. Yeah Tom, I think it would've been better served if those episodes were more spread out, and due to them not being so, I find the run of episodes beginning with 'Viking Bikers from Hell' to 'The Cows of October' to be an era when it looked like Vice strayed too far. Some might find episodes such as 'Everybody's in Showbiz' or 'Amen...Send Money' to be a little funky, so add that to those truly off-schedule or out of this world stuff, and that opinion may have some basis in reality. I don't mind, but back in 1987 I could see this being a problem, since we didn't know about the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 On 1/20/2021 at 6:20 PM, Tom said: While I agree with you in case of The Maze (I brought up that unrealistic VICE involvement in the first place), I disagree with the other examples mentioned (Shadow, Home Invaders) as these were explainable or close to reality, at least at that time. In both cases, like in some others (e.g. Baby blues, Little Miss Dangerous, Baseballs of death-teaser/opening, Honor among thieves-kill string with pure cocaine), VICE was asked/ordered to help, either because the case had a VICE angle to it due to a hooker, drugs in play, victim with a VICE "jacket" or the case had so much public urgency that homicide or robbery alone could not handle it and politicians needed to show engagement. If you want to cite other unrealistic VICE involvement in cases in the series: how about Free Verse? This one is even more stupid as they would have blown their cover with this engagement! Why are undercover detectives like Crockett, Switek and Zito openly guarding a poet in front of TV cameras at the airport (Crockett hurried cameras away and covered his face for the same reason in "Red Tape")? Anyway Tom, I didn't mean to step on your comment about Vice Squad's involvement with 'The Maze'; I probably should've addressed you & the other posters specifically instead of being vague. I guess I came off like hungry Fed Joe Dalva; in that case, I hope you have a late lunch on my good friend Uncle Sammy (I heard he's been doing better of late). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 vor 36 Minuten schrieb Eillio Martin Imbasciati: Anyway Tom, I didn't mean to step on your comment about Vice Squad's involvement with 'The Maze'; I probably should've addressed you & the other posters specifically instead of being vague. I guess I came off like hungry Fed Joe Dalva; in that case, I hope you have a late lunch on my good friend Uncle Sammy (I heard he's been doing better of late). No problem. I did not feel "stepped on". But if you really imagine you came across like Joe Dalva, then please also imagine me being Castillo and giving you a silent stare 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 Oh yes, that's a must: In accepting the full Joe Dalva package I demand, not expect, the Castillo stare ("Cry" still has to be playing though:-). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoombayPunch Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) An interesting episode, but not one of the best. I liked PMT's "undercover" work as a vagabond infiltrating the hotel, he did a good job in that respect. I was mostly taken by the location they used for "The Maze" itself, the Blue Waters Hotel. I was shocked that a piece of real estate in such a prime location would get in that bad shape without someone coming in and renovating it. Goes to show you how much the Miami scene has changed since then, mostly through the influx of that massive amount of money in the late 80s. An unrecognizable Ving Rhames and the always beautiful Garcelle Beauvais are other points of notice. Jay Saunders was a little over the top as Davis, but that was probably how he was supposed to play it... out of control and putting others in danger. Edited March 16, 2021 by GoombayPunch 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, GoombayPunch said: An interesting episode, but not one of the best. I liked PMT's "undercover" work as a vagabond infiltrating the hotel, he did a good job in that respect. I was mostly taken by the location they used for "The Maze" itself, the Blue Water Hotel. I was shocked that a piece of real estate in such a prime location would get in that bad shape without someone coming in and renovating it. Goes to show you how much the Miami scene has changed since then, mostly through the influx of that massive amount of money in the late 80s. An unrecognizable Ving Rhames and the always beautiful Garcelle Beauvais are other points of notice. Jay Saunders was a little over the top as Davis, but that was probably how he was supposed to play it... out of control and putting others in danger. I’ve tried to find as much history about the Blue Waters as I could in years past. From what I could find, I don’t think the old hotel had been technically abandoned and/or closed as long as it appeared in the episode. I believe the hotel (by this time very run down and probably catering to mostly homeless & rooms by the hour) was officially shut down in the early 80s...possibly 1981. It probably was taken over by homeless and druggies for the next few years, and eventually it was slated for demolition. I think production crew was given permission to do to it what they wanted to it for filming...adding destruction and graffiti to make it more ‘abandoned’ for “The Maze”. Eventually they were able to use the outside or exterior again for “French Twist”—even setting off a small explosion. Sadly the Blue Waters was finally demolished in 1987. A high rise condominium building now stands in its place. I have several vintage postcards of The Blue Waters in its heyday...40s thru 60s. Pretty nice hotel in its day, and right on the ocean! Edited March 16, 2021 by ViceFanMan 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoombayPunch Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 Great postcards - thanks! I believe this is the hi-rise you're referring to? The Saint Tropez Ocean Front Condominium. (pic taken from Google Maps) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just now, GoombayPunch said: Great postcards - thanks! I believe this is the hi-rise you're referring to? The Saint Tropez Ocean Front Condominium. (pic taken from Google Maps) It’s been several years since I’ve seen the building, but from what I remember that looks like it. I like The Blue Waters better...Miami probably was a lot cooler in the 40s & 50s. Now everything is high rises and “crowded city”. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 14 hours ago, ViceFanMan said: I’ve tried to find as much history about the Blue Waters as I could in years past. From what I could find, I don’t think the old hotel had been technically abandoned and/or closed as long as it appeared in the episode. I believe the hotel (by this time very run down and probably catering to mostly homeless & rooms by the hour) was officially shut down in the early 80s...possibly 1981. It probably was taken over by homeless and druggies for the next few years, and eventually it was slated for demolition. I think production crew was given permission to do to it what they wanted to it for filming...adding destruction and graffiti to make it more ‘abandoned’ for “The Maze”. Eventually they were able to use the outside or exterior again for “French Twist”—even setting off a small explosion. Sadly the Blue Waters was finally demolished in 1987. A high rise condominium building now stands in its place. I have several vintage postcards of The Blue Waters in its heyday...40s thru 60s. Pretty nice hotel in its day, and right on the ocean! In its heyday, it looks to me like it was a nice place to stay. I remember when I was a kid and the Point Breeze Hotel was right by where my parents & I lived in Angola, NY; we loved it and ate there every Friday in the mid-late 1980's until an "accidental fire" left it more than an empty field (nowadays, it has some picnic tables, sand, and a swing set overlooking Lake Erie) I wonder if there are people who still carry fond memories of the Blue Waters (the wat-ahs!). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 18 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said: In its heyday, it looks to me like it was a nice place to stay. I remember when I was a kid and the Point Breeze Hotel was right by where my parents & I lived in Angola, NY; we loved it and ate there every Friday in the mid-late 1980's until an "accidental fire" left it more than an empty field (nowadays, it has some picnic tables, sand, and a swing set overlooking Lake Erie) I wonder if there are people who still carry fond memories of the Blue Waters (the wat-ahs!). Judging by the pictures, it looks like the whole area where The Blue Waters Hotel used to be is completely developed and commercialized now. It doesn’t even look like that nice or enjoyable of a vacation spot or area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 (edited) [A lot of this is my original review...but Ive added or changed some info as I learned it later & over the years. Some more pics of the Blue Waters, as well as one of its demolition are at the end.] Okay, this is an episode that you'll either like it or hate it.There are a few boring scenes once inside the Blue Waters and that bizarre crying/howling squatter woman--what was up with that?? But, I love Tubbs' cover...and especially him singing his song while walking up to the old hotel. However, this may sound strange to many but the main reason I really like this episode is because of the Blue Waters Hotel itself!! I love it for the setting, and I love old art deco style of the 30s-50's. I also love to explore and photograph old abandoned places--especially old schools, houses, or hotels. So, the Blue Waters Hotel fits perfectly for me with that aspect...and I soooo wish I could've explored and photographed the old hotel before it was torn down. I wish it could've been restored instead...but it was probably too far "gone" by even the time "The Maze" was filmed in it. To go along with my "MV" memoribailia, I've purchased several vintage Blue Waters Hotel postcards from the 1940's to early 1960's. I figure the hotel was probably built in the late 30s to early 40s. I think it actually closed earlier than what it appeared in the episode. I read online that it was officially condemned & shut down in 1983 (photo below)–as I’m sure it was run down & had not been maintained much in the last several years it had been open. I’m sure in the next couple years real homeless and drug addicts took over before MV filmed there. But, I believe that MV production crew was given permission to pretty much do what they wanted to film “Maze”...and eventually “French Twist”, too. They basically did a lot more destruction and added a lot of the graffiti, to make it look as if the hotel had been abandoned longer than it had been. The hotel was slated for demolition in 1986, and eventually The Blue Waters was torn down in 1987. I still find the hotel sad & interesting...but overall this is a “weak” one for Season 1. I originally rated this a 7...but in all honesty I’d probably give it a 6 now. Here are a few more pics of The Blue Waters: one of a 1987 Miami news photo of the demolition , another one from “The Maze”, another one from probably the mid to late 40s, in its heyday, and a 1983 Miami Herald photo officially condemning it. Miami Herald 1987 news photo of the demolition. “The Maze” (1985) Vintage 1940s/early 50s Postcard 1983 Miami Herald news photo, saying The Blue Waters has been officially condemned & shut down. Edited April 4, 2021 by ViceFanMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdiegolo78 Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 On 1/20/2021 at 9:49 PM, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said: Oh, I totally agree with those who commented that Vice Division wouldn't be let anywhere near 'The Maze': this one's a SWAT production all the way. But wasn't Vice Squad always getting involved in cases such as 'The Home Invaders' and 'Shadow in the Dark' (heck, what about 'No Exit' even? Once the feds are in, Vice Division is sent to the dugout, right?), where they had no business? Totally suspension of disbelief for me, but I also can't help but agree with everyone else's logic. It's called Miami Vice for a reason, not Miami Swat/ATF/insert law enforcement agency name ...but I agree, in real life a narcotic/vice division wouldn't deal with the scenarios depicted in these episodes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdiegolo78 Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 On 1/20/2021 at 3:00 AM, Mr. Vigilante said: . I knew of a fellow officer under so long (2 years plus) he had to go to rehab when they pulled him out. Not too glamorous. That reminds me of the undercover FBI guy Artie Rollins from the 'Heart of Darkness' episode and Sonny in the Burnett arc episodes. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 22 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said: It's called Miami Vice for a reason, not Miami Swat/ATF/insert law enforcement agency name ...but I agree, in real life a narcotic/vice division wouldn't deal with the scenarios depicted in these episodes. True. There’s always a supposed reason the Vice squad “gets” to help out or even be in charge of some operation—usually drugs or some drug dealers are the reason they’re supposedly brought in, whereas in reality it probably would be SWAT or ATF carrying out the operations. Same idea with shows like the CSI ones...in reality the CSI investigators are not the ones doing the gun play, and major investigation for a murder or death...that would most likely still be the Homicide investigator’s job. CSIs just process the forensic evidence at a crime scene and/or in labs later. But, we have to have our main stars/characters in all the action...or we wouldn’t have a show. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 vor 9 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan: True. There’s always a supposed reason the Vice squad “gets” to help out or even be in charge of some operation—usually drugs or some drug dealers are the reason they’re supposedly brought in, whereas in reality it probably would be SWAT or ATF carrying out the operations. Same idea with shows like the CSI ones...in reality the CSI investigators are not the ones doing the gun play, and major investigation for a murder or death...that would most likely still be the Homicide investigator’s job. CSIs just process the forensic evidence at a crime scene and/or in labs later. But, we have to have our main stars/characters in all the action...or we wouldn’t have a show. But that's how series have always been structured. Think of Quincy, who as a pathologist wouldn't normally do investigative work either, but Quincy always did. Vice was no different. You had to find other ways to involve the Vice team in the story, because otherwise it probably would have gotten boring quickly. Personally, that never bothered me, because I liked the series as such, because it was the way we knew it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Christine said: But that's how series have always been structured. Think of Quincy, who as a pathologist wouldn't normally do investigative work either, but Quincy always did. Vice was no different. You had to find other ways to involve the Vice team in the story, because otherwise it probably would have gotten boring quickly. Personally, that never bothered me, because I liked the series as such, because it was the way we knew it. Exactly! Take a little bit of reality & a little bit of fantasy, combine them together, and ba-bam! You have to find ways to involve the main characters, whether realistically or not. This also never has bothered me at all, as we love our shows & characters as such...you’re supposed to go with it & enjoy! If you get too technical and “reality” based, no show will completely stand-up...and you sadly miss out on the point & purpose of the shows, plus you’re ignoring creativity & imagination. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdiegolo78 Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) Just my take on this episode. I read conflicting reviews and in my opinion this is not as bad as some made it to be. The intro was one of the best in the whole series, I liked the whole Crockett chase sequence at the mall. That moron of detective Dureya got on my nerves from the very first scene. If i was his partner i would have punched him for being an idiot. And i was hoping for Dureya to be shot in the maze by the Escobar brothers. But I assume he got at least suspended or fired. I found very funny the way Switek and Zito showed up to the maze owner to demand the man's attention and get the building blueprints. And Stan line 'it's safe to say lunch is a wash' . I also appreciate the realistic approach when showing the SWAT/SRT guys planning the entry in the building. I think they wanted to get an undercover detective first (Tubbs) to evacuate the civilians for the swat to come in and get the perps dead or alive. I know real life SWAT/tactical teams are trained to locate and secure hostages first while another team goes for the bad guys. And for me the highlight of the episode is the dancer in the disco scene. Always had me laughing so hard. The man must have snorted a few lines of white . I agree though with some posters saying some scenes dragged for too long, especially the shots inside the derelict building. On a final note, I find Raul Escobar bursting into tears at the end before getting arrested quite pathetic. Let's give this a 7/10. Edited April 9, 2021 by sdiegolo78 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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