Do you feel as if Tubbs is under-appreciated?

[Detective_Crockett]

PMT and Don seemed to get along, but the latter clashed with EJO.

I heard about that...in some episodes Don and EJO don't even look at eachother.

[COOPER&BURNETT]

Don was unhappy that while the cast couldn't work on outside projects, EJO was given exclusive rights to do so, as a condition of his contract. (EJO turned down the roll numerous times because he didn't want to be tied down to the show) Don, who was full of ego, didn't like this, and pretty much challenged this, and checked to see if this was true, and was not happy when he found out it was true. He was the star of the show, why was this new guy given something he wasn't? Don did work on outside projects, most likely when he renegotiated his conract after his holdout. 

 

Jealousy and ego most likely was the motivating factor in the clashing.

Edited May 25, 2015 by COOPER&BURNETT

[Chloe]

I simply cannot watch his love scenes with Valerie without laughing...The director obviously had a foot fetish....I'll leave it at that ðŸ˜

Edited May 26, 2015 by Chloe

[Detective_Crockett]

LOL kinda true...his love scenes were pretty funny. Me and my friend kinda do cringe at his love scenes.

[summer84]

Couldn't agree more, Coop.

 

One of the magics of MV was its incredible, perfect mix of personalities and their balance and counterpoint. It definitely was a choral show, (as Hill Street was at the beginning of the 80s. No wonder Yerkovich was among its creators).

 

Its unique blend of identities made that show THAT show. Johnson took the biggest part of the success, but this wouldn't have been happened without all the elements surrounding him. Think for a moment about a series without Tubbs or Castillo, or the girls, just imagine having this cool cop dominating the scene for the whole season's time. It would have been the 100th ordinary cop show, no matter if you put Armani and Ferrari into it.

 

Just think about how every character enhances the impact of his next one: I mean, the way they behave, their clothes, their own way to be, the backgroud of each... Crockett's pastels are perfect near the neutral silky colors of Tubbs, not to mention the austere b&w look of Lt Castillo. No doubt about it: that magic blend was one of the (main) reasons of MV success.

 

That's one of the reasons the last series are weaker. I always liked Tubbs and the way PMT portrayed his character, and of course I disliked that change.

 

 

 

That is so true Sonny Crockett can not stand alone. The two of them together made it cool. Phillip Michael Thomas added so much personality into his character that when they changed it was noticeable. Dick Wolf had a different vision on how the show should be so a lot changed.

[PalmTree]

No not all.  While being a good actor PMT is nowhere near the actor DJ is. 

[Viceman Cometh]

The show was at its best when the two leads shared the screen and played off one another. It's heartbreaking seeing some of the S4 and S5 eps where Tubbs is relegated to a background character. Crockett was the center of the show, no doubt. But, much like cornflakes need milk, Crockett needed Tubbs to create that decade-defining magic.

[PalmTree]

The show would have done just well w/out Tubbs IMO.  Nothing against PMT but this is just a fact.

[Payback22]

The show would have done just well w/out Tubbs IMO.  Nothing against PMT but this is just a fact.

 

You've got to be kidding. The show would have been cancelled after one season without Tubbs and the "Crockett & Tubbs" partner dynamic of the show.

Could anyone imagine the classic pilot episode minus Tubbs and the seeking vengeance for his brothers death plotline. One of the all time greatest episodes in tv history would have been mediocre and forgettable. Without Tubbs and the partnership, buddy dynamic the show may have gotten the ax before the end of season 1.

[Detective_Crockett]

You've got to be kidding. The show would have been cancelled after one season without Tubbs and the "Crockett & Tubbs" partner dynamic of the show.

Could anyone imagine the classic pilot episode minus Tubbs and the seeking vengeance for his brothers death plotline. One of the all time greatest episodes in tv history would have been mediocre and forgettable. Without Tubbs and the partnership, buddy dynamic the show may have gotten the ax before the end of season 1.

Buddy cop shows were a big thing then as well, at the time they had just got over Starsky and Hutch (which is equally brilliant) buddy cop was an over-used feature by then, but Sonny and Rico really bought it back, they connected..they were partners, friends, the show was great with Tubbs, I personally don't see how it could have kicked off without Tubbs.

[PalmTree]

PMT could have been replaced w/ someone else just easily, Gina, Trudy, Switec, Zito the same thing.  DJ was/is MV.  The choice to add Olmos as Castillo made a much larger overall contribution to PMT ever did IMO.

[Bryan]

I disagree.. DJ and PMT continued on the tradition of black/white buddy team movies like 48 Hrs

[Vice Immersion]

^{I think that it was because Don Johnson was the main character on the show. He was the star of the show and he got more publicity in the public.}

^{Also his name was credited first in the opening theme. I just wished that they had kept them together as a team. I also wish that they had given Gina and Trudy more storylines and screentime.}

In my opinion, it would have been an awesome direction if the show highlighted Gina and Trudy starting a cover in the drug underworld similar to Crockett and Tubbs, and find themselves eventually "competing" with them on the streets.  Include in the series a female villain character similar to Griselda Blanco, and it could have been an interesting mix of events and character development for all as the dynamics would have changed in OCB with Gina and Trudy going deeper in the drug world.   ...Oh well.

 

It's surprising that with Dick Wolf's "ripped from the headlines" formulaic approach, he didn't include a ruthless female drug lord in Miami Vice.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Vice Immersion

[TubbsGirl1n&Ou7]

Of course, not by us..we all love Tubbs! 

 

But I mean in general in the show, and by some people... Crockett gets more story centric episodes and the focus is always on Sonny by the start of Season 3 and 4, not to mention he didn't appear too much in Season 3, or 4.

Sonny went through plenty of heartbreak but Tubbs lost his entire family (To the damn Calderones) and he didn't even get to marry Valerie. 

 

In Season 1 and 2 it was always Crockett and Tubbs, they had eachothers backs and always had gunfights and the episodes were focused on the both of them, but by Season 4 it was The Don Johnson show. (Not that that's bad, we all love Sonny, but it would have been nice to see more Tubbs.) 

I am glad you said this! I completely agree & felt this too. It did begin to feel like the The Don Johnson show especially when Barnett came more into play have his wife Cathlyn died. As much as I loved how Don/Barnett looked his style, I began to feel Tubbs was getting more of the back seat. 

 

& as far as Tubbs love scenes....I personally loved them. Maybe that is just because of my Tubbs crush. I do think he may've been a bit aggressive at times though.

 

I do think Gina & Trudy should've gotten more diverse storylines/episodes & I felt Trudy was short-handed with having more of a personal life. At least Gina got to have a little more love interests, I wish Trudy had gotten to have more. That alien episode I felt was unnecessary for her to have around her. Poor Trudy/Olivia Brown too.

Edited June 15, 2015 by TubbsGirl1n&Ou7

[Detective_Crockett]

Yeah they really messed with her, it wasn't very nice.

[COOPER&BURNETT]

Having met Oliva Brown, and her family, I really had hoped to have seen her do more stuff. She and Saundra are really the ones who were under used.

 

Tubbs is Awesome! I would have loved to have him as my partner. He's a stand up guy. Just like all the characters, none of them were perfect. They were human. They made mistakes, and bad choices here and there, but just like Tubbs, all they really wanted was to do the right thing and see justice.

 

I've seen the arguments of Don was a strong enough leading man to carry the show. Well, that's true. He was a very strong leading man, and so was the character. However, Without his partner Tubbs, something would still be missing. Don Johnson was a very strong leading man, but when it came time to do NASH BRIDGES, and he had the power as the main actor, AND one of the producers on the show, he had the power, clout, and ego to make himself the only leading man......but he didn't. Even he was smart enough to surround himself with other very good actors, and gave his character a partner (Cheech Marin) who, like Tubbs has a fun personality, is sensible, backs his partner, and does the right thing. It equal things out.

 

Nash's character was given a partner for the same reason Crockett had a Partner, it's just BETTER to do so, and a formula that works. Even actor / producer Don Johnson knew this.        

 

No matter how good Don Johnson is, MIAMI VICE would have been empty without Tubbs. Tubbs completed Don's strong character.

Edited June 15, 2015 by COOPER&BURNETT

[damrod]

The costar is always under appreciated, but the star would not be the star without any of them. 

[summer84]

In my opinion, it would have been an awesome direction if the show highlighted Gina and Trudy starting a cover in the drug underworld similar to Crockett and Tubbs, and find themselves eventually "competing" with them on the streets.  Include in the series a female villain character similar to Griselda Blanco, and it could have been an interesting mix of events and character development for all as the dynamics would have changed in OCB with Gina and Trudy going deeper in the drug world.   ...Oh well.

 

It's surprising that with Dick Wolf's "ripped from the headlines" formulaic approach, he didn't include a ruthless female drug lord in Miami Vice.

 

I thought this also, looking at all of the bad guys that were used on the show. I didn't know that there were female drug lords back in the eighties or at all for that matter, so thanks for the article. Considering that  "Blanco played a major role in the history of the drug trade in Miami," and was involved in the Miami Drug War it is surprising they never made a storyline about here, because Michael Talbott said that some of their ideas came from Miami newspapers. They could have made a great storyline with this, instead of writing scripts like Tale of the goat and missing hours. Unfortunately Gina and Trudy weren't a part of the show in that sense compared to Crockett and Tubbs.

[Vice Immersion]

I thought this also, looking at all of the bad guys that were used on the show. I didn't know that there were female drug lords back in the eighties or at all for that matter, so thanks for the article. Considering that  "Blanco played a major role in the history of the drug trade in Miami," and was involved in the Miami Drug War it is surprising they never made a storyline about here, because Michael Talbott said that some of their ideas came from Miami newspapers. They could have made a great storyline with this, instead of writing scripts like Tale of the goat and missing hours. Unfortunately Gina and Trudy weren't a part of the show in that sense compared to Crockett and Tubbs.

Well...

 

It's a pretty glaring oversight by them, considering...

Edited June 16, 2015 by Vice Immersion

[Noggie]

I loved the Tubbs character but his role diminished starting with season 3. The characters didn't hang out as much but part of that was because they were portrayed older in later seasons. In season 1, you see them hanging with friends in "Cool Runnin". It's tough to picture a scene like that in the later seasons. They're different characters. I don't have season 5 yet but there's the one episode that ends with them talking & laughing on the boat. I remember at the time liking that because it felt nice to see them relaxed for a change. Like the old days!

I think changing the color schemes hurt Tubbs a lot because his suits became so drab. Nice suits but something you'd see in an office. I missed the brighter colors & hated he wore a tie all the time. I liked the shirt & jacket look with no tie. By season 4 he looks like a banker.

I think PMT did a fine job but his character lost his street edge by season 3. He became just another really good cop. He lost personality. Then again, the show lost it's personality! I always think PMT did a nice job acting & had some underrated comedic talents but at times, I wish the director had done another take on certain scenes. His reaction to the explosion in "Sons & Lovers" is just bad & the director should have corrected that. Just a few bad scenes stand out though. He owned the part.

The show became way too DJ centered & it threw everything out of whack. He even usually fired the shot that killed the bad guy!! Look at how nice it is when Tubbs get the bad guy in "Milk Run". I love this show but it could have handled a lot better.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Noggie

[Spyder]

I loved the Tubbs character but his role diminished starting with season 3. The characters didn't hang out as much but part of that was because they were portrayed older in later seasons. In season 1, you see them hanging with friends in "Cool Runnin". It's tough to picture a scene like that in the later seasons. They're different characters. I don't have season 5 yet but there's the one episode that ends with them talking & laughing on the boat. I remember at the time liking that because it felt nice to see them relaxed for a change. Like the old days!

I think changing the color schemes hurt Tubbs a lot because his suits became so drab. Nice suits but something you'd see in an office. I missed the brighter colors & hated he wore a tie all the time. I liked the shirt & jacket look with no tie. By season 4 he looks like a banker.

I think PMT did a fine job but his character lost his street edge by season 3. He became just another really good cop. He lost personality. Then again, the show lost it's personality! I always think PMT did a nice job acting & had some underrated comedic talents but at times, I wish the director had done another take on certain scenes. His reaction to the explosion in "Sons & Lovers" is just bad & the director should have corrected that. Just a few bad scenes stand out though. He owned the part.

The show became way too DJ centered & it threw everything out of whack. He even usually fired the shot that killed the bad guy!! Look at how nice it is when Tubbs get the bad guy in "Milk Run". I love this show but it could have handled a lot better.

 

The Season 5 episode you're thinking of is To Have and to Hold -- the last scene on the boat is one of the only S5 finales that really harkens back to that Vice spirit of earlier years, like the closing scenes of The Home Invaders, Theresa, Rock and a Hard Place, that leave a lump in your throat. 

 

Tubbs did seem to lose his personality the most of all the characters at the OCB. You are right, he did seem to lose that New Yawk edge and everything that made him T.U.B.B.S.: Tough, Unique, Bad, Bodacious, Sassy. The Tubbs of Season 4 seemed more subdued with the beard. The Tubbs of Seasons 1-2 would have never been able to go undercover as a doctoral student like he did in Indian Wars. By Season 5, his face seemed overdone with makeup, and PMT seemed to always have a wide eyed, worried look on his face. Even his interactions with Valerie in Too Little, Too Late seemed forced and different than the last time we saw them in Prodigal Son. He and DJ just didn't seem themselves, but it probably didn't help that the scripts had them saying and doing things totally out of character.

 

Notice how when PMT came back a few years later to do the Psychic Friends Network, that he got his old Tubbs fire back? Funny how a few years out of the limelight not earning any money can make you hungry again.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Spyder

[Bren10]

Overall, yes Tubbs is underappreciated.  There simply wasn't equal parity. It was 55/45 in Crockett's favor at its highest, not 50/50.  The pantsuits and shoes w/no socks are what casual viewers now remember.  In other words all the Crockett-centric things.  I agree DJ was the better actor but that's immaterial if the stated premise is to have equal billing for the two characters, but I don't know that that was ever the case.  Did Michael Mann or anyone ever officially state that the two leads were meant to be entirely equal?  Or did we all just assume that because there were two leads?  Could the show could have been successful without one or the other?  Well look at the eps where one or the other was missing.  For me, an ep like Home Invaders was still effective.  Though not as good, even Bad Timing was ok/good.  On the other hand those 5th season eps without Crockett were SERIOUSLY missing something to the point that my attention wanders.  I think that when all is said and done Don Johnson is the star of Miami Vice and it wouldn't be the same without him-AT ALL. But there was room for more Tubbs, and the show didn't take full advantage of that.  A comparison can be made with MASH, I think.  You could replace  a Trapper with a Honeycutt but you sure as Hell couldn't lose Hawkeye and have that show run the same.  

Edited September 28, 2018 by Bren10
Posted under wrong topic

[alleycat]

I agree tubbs was unappreciated . I found he played a big part in the episodes of Vice . Sonny could always count on his partner in many occasions and busts they took down also . It should be a 50/50 partnership . I could never see Vice without tubbs though that’s for sure .

[BunMVO]

Looks like you revived a dead thread!

I think that Tubbs, while cool, was more of a sidekick than anything. PMT wasn't the best actor, and his character always wore very old-fashioned suits and always had the clean shave except for season 4 and part of 5 where has that impeccably groomed beard - so he wasn't innovative by anyone's standards. I mean, I like Tubbs, I think it's cool that he's able to pass for Caribbean because of his exotic looks and his attempt at the accent. Reading back on when this thread was started, I must agree that people always mention "Crockett and Tubbs", not just "Crockett" alone usually.

There is an episode of The Sopranos where Tony Blundetto (Steve Buscemi, who you also know as in Miami Vice) gets out of prison after 17 years or something, and wears a white suit with sleeves rolled up and blue t-shirt underneath at his welcome-home party. Artie, the owner of the restaurant, greets him and asks jokingly, "Where's Tubbs?"

[Tony D.]

Although Sonny Crockett is the undisputed star of Miami Vice, there would be an emptiness without Tubbs. He added a cool, casual toughness to Crockett's partner. Even Lombard liked Tubbs', style.

MV would not be as great without Crockett AND Tubbs!