Michael Mann had very little to do with the show?

[Detective_Crockett]

I always thought that Michael Mann was completely in charge of the whole show as the director? Wikipedia says that Michael Mann only wrote Golden Triangle, obviously I know in Season 3 Dick Wolf took over the entire show. 

But if Michael had so little involvement in the show, why is it in every single episode at the end it always says Directed by Michael Mann. ? 

 

Forgive me if I'm sounding a little dim, I just wanted to know. 

[airtommy]

25 minutes ago, Detective_Crockett said:

I always thought that Michael Mann was completely in charge of the whole show as the director? Wikipedia says that Michael Mann only wrote Golden Triangle, obviously I know in Season 3 Dick Wolf took over the entire show. 

But if Michael had so little involvement in the show, why is it in every single episode at the end it always says Directed by Michael Mann. ? 

No episode gives Mann a "Director" credit.  His credit is always "Executive Producer". In movies, the executive producer usually is limited to organizing the movie and getting financing, but all of these titles are flexible.  That said, I've heard Mann had very little hands-on involvement in the show, but I've also heard the exact opposite.  My guess is that he was very involved in the pilot.   After that, he probably was very involved when he was there, but when another movie or TV show took him away he had nothing to do with MV.

I've always wished we could get some clarity on this issue.  

[mvnyc]

I think his involvement was that of overseeing things, at least for the first two seasons.  After that, with "Crime Story" starting, his attention went over to that show and the rest is history... 

[vicegirl85]

What mvnyc said is the way I've always understood it happened.

[agent 47]

Here's Michael Mann talking about Miami Vice in the first five minutes of this interview segment with Robert Rodriguez, in Mann's words it was much more like "executive directing".

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by agent 47

[airtommy]

Thanks for posting that great Mann interview!  I had never seen that.  Did I understand him correctly that MV filmed 22 hours of footage per episode rather than the standard 8-12 for a normal TV show?  I had never before heard Mann say that MV was "consciously anti-disco".

[Tommy Vercetti]

Great interview! Makes you wish he had done DVD interviews or commentaries like that in the past. Maybe there will be on the Bluray but to be honest I've never bought into the whole Bluray thing.

I think it's fair to say that Mann was hugely involved with the show, certainly in terms of the visuals and look of the show which he is largely credited with having been responsible for. He was also clearly involved in the casting since many actors from his other productions cropped up on the show such as Dennis Farina, John Santucci etc.
He was executive producer and showrunner for the first two seasons so he was obviously in charge then. Dick Wolf was the showrunner for seasons 3 and 4 so he was running things then while Mann was working on another fantastic show named Crime Story. Although I think Mann was still highly involved with season 3 as much of that season has Mann written all over it, like Shadow In The Dark is influenced by Manhunter, Willie Nelson is in El Viejo and he was also in Thief, Crime Story co-creator Gustave Reininger wrote Forgive Us Our Debts. Mann's influence was less evident in season 4. Dick Wolf was made co-executive producer in season 4 so that might account for that. Season 4 was clearly the season Mann had the least to do with as so much of it is bad and below par, to say the least. I think he was more involved with season 5, which I personally consider a vast improvment over the previous season. Mann's participation is evident with the return of season 1 characters Lombard, Valerie and May Ying.

I think Mann was very involved in the show but his level of involvment fluctuated throughout the show's run.

[Daytona74]

Great find, that interview!!

Obviously, Miami Vice had a range of different people directing individual episodes, but you can't deny that Michael Mann's handwriting was all over every season 1 and 2 episode. Michael Mann's movies both before and after "Vice" are almost instantly recognizable because of his unique visual (and also dramatic) style, so you can only conclude that he had more to do with the look of Miami Vice than just financing the episodes or choosing scripts and locations. As Michael Mann says in the interview, there was also that tendency to go big on the storylines - it wasn't just always routine busts of local drug peddlers or pimps, but there was often a more far-reaching dimension of international or global politics to stories as well. That's also something that Michael Mann is known for.

But I think you can tell that Michael Mann's involvement with the series began to fade with season 3. Many episodes feel like they weren't the result of Michael Mann's input, but the result of the remaining production team's attempt to make it look like Michael Mann's work.

For example, I just saw "Rising Sun of Death" the other night. A storyline like that, the dealings of Asian organized crime in Miami, normally could have made for gripping one- or two hour entertainment. Just look at "Golden Triangle". But the episode kind of feels like the writers and producers bit off more than they could chew, and the whole premise kind of falls flat on its face somewhere halfway through the episode. Michael Mann's direct involvement in season 1 and 2 was the glue that held such ambitious storylines together and gave them an edge that just meant compelling crime drama television. But I was kind of glad when "Rising Sun of Death" was over, because it just felt like a completely unremarkable episode when it could have been so much more.

But anyway, it kind of makes season 1 and 2 episodes which had Michael Mann at the helm even more enjoyable...

[AzVice]

i got the impression the '22 hours' referred to the season as a whole, idk

although he did not direct any episodes i realized his influence when i watched "Thief" a few years ago. There's a scene where there's the same shot over a black cadillac hood driving down the street, and of the wheels turning as the Daytona in "Brother's Keeper" !

There are a lot of producers on tv shows and movies if you watch the credit. So although Mann retained Ex producer status, it's obvious in the 4th and 5th season his influence was fading. It's just too bad there was no one else there that kept the quality strong. Really in those years it wasn't just so much the writing and stories but the care of the production values that faded.

[Daytona74]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb AzVice:

it's obvious in the 4th and 5th season his influence was fading. It's just too bad there was no one else there that kept the quality strong. Really in those years it wasn't just so much the writing and stories but the care of the production values that faded.

It's the old thing about never changing a winning team. And Michael Mann's departure was the crucial change (together with Jan Hammer leaving) that caused the show to deteriorate. Michael Mann should have stayed on "Vice" and maybe done "Crime Story" two years later. That way, maybe Miami Vice eventually would have taken a turn for the worse anyway, but we would have had two more seasons of all-around terrific episodes. I mean, Michael Mann actually made episodes like "Made For Each Other" watchable, without anybody thinking that Miami Vice was (already) going to the dogs... just look what happened with "The Big Thaw" three years later when he was no longer around...

A different story is how Miami Vice is remembered in popular culture. People don't remember it for the murky colors of "earthtone" season 3, the first thing they'll tell you won't be that "Missing Hours" was a big steaming pile of dung. They also won't complain that Miami Vice went off the deep end in season five. No, they'll remember the pastels and linen suits of season one and two, that very cool black convertible, and the big chunky slice of 80s pop culture that those episodes were. In a way that wasn't immediately predictable when Miami Vice ended, pop culture itself now looks kindly on the show, and has done so for about the last 20 years.

 

[AzVice]

john nicolella also left after season 2.

well the big reason they don't remember 3-5 is they weren't watching. Cursed nbc for moving it against Dallas and leaving it there.

[airtommy]

12 hours ago, AzVice said:

although he did not direct any episodes i realized his influence when i watched "Thief" a few years ago. There's a scene where there's the same shot over a black cadillac hood driving down the street, and of the wheels turning as the Daytona in "Brother's Keeper" !

Very interesting info!  I recall Edward James Olmos specifically giving Thomas Carter credit for this and I remember getting this vibe that Olmos was boosting Carter and playing loose with the facts.

[Daytona74]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb AzVice:

well the big reason they don't remember 3-5 is they weren't watching. Cursed nbc for moving it against Dallas and leaving it there.

 

Yeah, you're probably right...

They actually did a similar thing here in Germany with season three...

Miami Vice started on December 6, 1986, as a hiatus replacement for Dallas (ironically), in a 9:45 Tuesday night timeslot on ARD, our biggest network here. And it maintained that timeslot until the end of season two, taking turns with Dallas. Miami Vice was maybe on for six months, then Dallas came back, and vice versa.

9:45 Tuesday night was a very popular timeslot, probably because Dallas had been on for years back then at that particular time, so people made time on Tuesday night to watch whatever was on. And so it wasn't difficult for Miami Vice to pick up a following right out the gate when it replaced Dallas in that timeslot. But then for the third season, which began here on January 2, 1988, Miami Vice was moved to Saturday night (10PM, I think).  So the show got "buried" here almost the same way as over there. And the ratings began to slip. ARD didn't air season four until late 1991, while its regional affiliates only reran all the old episodes, and showed a few "lost episodes" from season 1 and 2 that weren't aired during its original run.

So I guess that's another reason why people here also only remember the first two seasons.

 

Edited July 9, 2016 by Daytona74

[Stinger390X]

It's weird that Mann tried to juggle so many projects at once. MV was a huge hit as we all know, but I saw the trailers for Crime Story and I watched religiously every week, as well as MV. I was so into the classic cars they were using on CS!

I understand that Crime Story after the first episode was so poorly rated that it came in 49th out of 50 on Nielson rating system and it was almost cancelled before it got off the ground. When word came out that they were going to can it, there was a letter writing campaign (yes kiddies we wrote letters on paper with pens and put stamps on envelopes) that saved the show and the introduction of the mob was more focused on and the story of Vegas. Since the change in direction it gained momentum and became what it is today!

I was really pissed at the final episode because it left an open door for the plot but all in all...I loved the show!

[Britva]

There is one chapter in Trish and Rob MacGregor's book "The Making Of Miami Vice" about Michael Mann and his involvement with the show. I'll attach this excerpt to the post, because it has too much text.

Michael Mann.rtf

Edited July 10, 2016 by Britva

[AzVice]

i think the the first episode of Crime Story got around 30 million viewers, but yeah after the first episode they put Crime Story on opposite Moonlighting which was at the height of it's success. Miami Vice and Crime Story were both very expensive to produce, both shot on location so they needed to be rated fairly good to pay off. NBC wasn't really smart the way they programmed those shows. the first episode of Crime Story i saw was the first Vegas episode 3/4 through the season. Moonlighting was probably on one of it's frequent reruns.

by comparison Magnum P.I. was on thursday at 8. When Cosby came on and ratings dropped CBS moved Magnum and ratings rebounded.

 

i like what  Mann said in that article about the Miami of the show being in his head. Unfortunately after season 2 the show became less of that . Virtually no ocean or beach, some episodes could have taken place in any big city.

Edited July 10, 2016 by AzVice

[Daytona74]

I've been trying to get the TV Guide issue with the cover story "Dallas Drubs the Cops: Why Miami Vice is Slipping" from spring of 1987... apparently, that article discusses at length the problems of moving up Miami Vice to 9pm Fridays to irk CBS and Dallas. And the receding influence of Michael Mann from season 3.

Any TV Guide collectors on here?

 

[AzVice]

unfortunately no, but i did just notice while searching covers that article was spring of 87, and there was another similar one a year later.

[airtommy]

On July 10, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Britva said:

There is one chapter in Trish and Rob MacGregor's book "The Making Of Miami Vice" about Michael Mann and his involvement with the show. I'll attach this excerpt to the post, because it has too much text.

Michael Mann.rtf

I just re-read that chapter and saw something I had not noticed before.  Mann lists his personal favorite episodes from S1/S2!

• Back in the World
• Bought and Paid For
• Sons and Lovers
• Made For Each Other
• Bushido
• Out Where the Buses Don't Run

In the Rob Cohen chapter, it is explained that the episode "Made For Each Other" was Mann's idea.  He wanted a comedy episode built around Switek, Zito, Izzy, and Noogie, so he hired Rob Cohen to work with Joel Surnow to write it.

[Dadrian]

Made for Each Other is def one of my favorites! Always funny, great locations, great music, "an a half a tank a gas".  

[ivoryjones]

Even though MM might not have been directly credited for it, he must have had a fundamental role on MV characters structure.

Take a look at Sonny Crockett and then watch MM films (after or even before Vice). There's almost always a Sonny Crockett equivalent if you consider Crockett's main "foundations". By that I mean a male character that puts 99% of his energy on his work. Work is not just work, but the core of life. He might be a loner (Neil McCauley on "Heat"), he might be married (Vincent Hanna on "Heat"), he might even have a good marriage going on (Lowell Bergman on "The Insider"); he might not rarely have a serene love for a particular woman, but that won't even scratch his nearly religious relation to work. As work is his life and by far his omnipresent mental concern, he will always see details others won't, he will always have unorthodox methods that won't make much sense to colleagues who regard work "mainly" as a way to make a living. There are guys like this in the good side (Crockett, Vincent Hanna etc.) and in the bad side (Burnett on The Burnett Trilogy, Neil McCauley etc.).

How many characters like that are there in MM movies/projects? It's hard to even count, but here are the ones I do feel they easily match that profile: Sonny Crockett, Sonny Burnett, Castillo, Hank Weldon, Neil MCauley, Vincent Hanna, Chester Bernstein, Vincent (Collateral), Max (Collateral), Lowell Bergman, Will Graham... 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by ivoryjones

[airtommy]

8 hours ago, ivoryjones said:

Even though MM might not have been directly credited for it, he must have had a structural role on MV characters structure.

Take a look at Sonny Crockett and then watch MM films (after or even before Vice). There's almost always a Sonny Crockett equivalent if you consider Crockett's main "foundations". By that I mean a male character that puts 99% of his energy in his work. Work is not just work, but the core of life.

Yes, great comments!  That's VERY Mann.  Sometimes Mann likes to have two such characters opposing each other.  Neither will back down, each is totally committed to following his chosen path.  Castillo vs. Lao Li in "Golden Triangle", Deniro vs Pacino in "Heat".

[ivoryjones]

9 hours ago, airtommy said:

Yes, great comments!  That's VERY Mann.  Sometimes Mann likes to have two such characters opposing each other.  Neither will back down, each is totally committed to following his chosen path.  Castillo vs. Lao Li in "Golden Triangle", Deniro vs Pacino in "Heat".

I haven't thought about Castillo vs. Lao Li, but it's evidently a perfect example of the process! Actually, the respectful dialogue Castillo and Lao Li have at the end of the episode could be considered a precursor of  the chat DeNiro and Pacino have at a particular (fantastic) scene in "Heat".

[AzVice]

i don't really see the four of them as similar characters

[airtommy]

Quote

 

Mann is the single most important force behind Miami Vice. It is, simply, his baby. His mark is apparent in every frame of every episode. Mann's style involves an aggressive use of visual images, camera angles and sound. There's no formula, but there is an attitude: surprise the viewers, confront them, involve them directly. The Jericho Mile, a TV film that earned four Emmys, was made this way, as was the cult film Thief, which starred James Caan. Miami Vice is a direct descendant of Mann's earlier work.

Mann spends half of his time in L.A., where the story and postproduction work is done, and the other half in Miami. He is more than thorough, more than inspired. He is obsessed with managing every detail of the show, from script to final edit. And although he won't hire anyone but the extraordinarily talented, he makes it clear -- to cast, crew, staff and public -- that this is the Michael Mann Show and only one person is indispensable. Despite his dictatorial style, Mann enjoys the fierce loyalty, even affection, of his cast and crew. Says producer John Nicolella, the man at the top in Miami: "Michael was in charge of the whole visual sense of the show, all this slick stuff -- which car, what the clothes look like, the colors, the kind of film cutting. He said, 'It'll be this and this and this,' and he has maintained that all along. He also found a nut like me who will follow it to the end of the world."

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/features/inside-miami-vice-19850328