Michael Mann had very little to do with the show?

[RedDragon86]

On 7/15/2016 at 10:09 AM, ivoryjones said:

Even though MM might not have been directly credited for it, he must have had a fundamental role on MV characters structure.

Take a look at Sonny Crockett and then watch MM films (after or even before Vice). There's almost always a Sonny Crockett equivalent if you consider Crockett's main "foundations". By that I mean a male character that puts 99% of his energy on his work. Work is not just work, but the core of life. He might be a loner (Neil McCauley on "Heat"), he might be married (Vincent Hanna on "Heat"), he might even have a good marriage going on (Lowell Bergman on "The Insider"); he might not rarely have a serene love for a particular woman, but that won't even scratch his nearly religious relation to work. As work is his life and by far his omnipresent mental concern, he will always see details others won't, he will always have unorthodox methods that won't make much sense to colleagues who regard work "mainly" as a way to make a living. There are guys like this in the good side (Crockett, Vincent Hanna etc.) and in the bad side (Burnett on The Burnett Trilogy, Neil McCauley etc.).

How many characters like that are there in MM movies/projects? It's hard to even count, but here are the ones I do feel they easily match that profile: Sonny Crockett, Sonny Burnett, Castillo, Hank Weldon, Neil MCauley, Vincent Hanna, Chester Bernstein, Vincent (Collateral), Max (Collateral), Lowell Bergman, Will Graham... 

 

 

This explains why Don Johnson approaches Sonny differently in season 3. He is much more confident and cocky than a brooding detective that smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, drinks too much and always looks like he has something worrying on his mind. 

[Mr. Calderon]

Almost always a sonny crockett... Correct. Almost. In the movie he used a Dumb Door as Sonny Crockett and sank the franchise

Edited December 29, 2021 by Mr. Calderon

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

3 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

This explains why Don Johnson approaches Sonny differently in season 3. He is much more confident and cocky than a brooding detective that smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, drinks too much and always looks like he has something worrying on his mind. 

Crockett always looked liked something was eating at him (I can relate) right? Yeah, but in Season 3 (and like the rest of the show), he became more clinical. I love that Crockett emotion though, and how he felt things for many things (Felicia points out Crockett's emotions in 'Freefall'; I've also acted like I don't care, but always cared very much. Nowadays, I let it all hang out, like I'm on the "The Replacements" football team, or in the band The Replacements).

[Mr. Calderon]

Sometimes crockett sounds like Bogart in casablanca

[Dadrian]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Calderon said:

Sometimes crockett sounds like Bogart in casablanca

Here’s lookin at you, Pal 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

Here’s lookin at you, Pal 

That is awesome; play me another song, Tubbs (Living by that book of their lives).

[RedDragon86]

This was taking from a Rolling Stone article. 

How Much of ‘Miami Vice’ Did Michael Mann Control as Executive Producer?

As Emily Benedek put it in a 1985 Rolling Stone article on the show, “[Mann’s] mark is apparent in every frame of every episode.”

Benedek did not have any question about who ran things on the set of Miami Vice. “Mann is the single most important force behind Miami Vice,” she wrote in Rolling Stone. “It is, simply, his baby.” Naturally, that went far beyond the visual aesthetic.

“[Mann] is obsessed with managing every detail of the show, from script to final edit,” Benedek wrote. “And although he won’t hire anyone but the extraordinarily talented, he makes it clear — to cast, crew, staff and public — that this is the Michael Mann Show and only one person is indispensable.”

As Steven Sanders wrote in his book-length study on the show (Miami Vice, 2010), “Mann created a total atmosphere: visual, sonic, and thematic.” Sanders compared Mann’s work on the show to that of Jack Webb (Dragnet) and other “television auteurs.”

For Mann, it wasn’t about slapping together an episode to showcase every week. Instead, he saw it as the production of a weekly film. Sopranos fans may have seen interviews with creator David Chase in which Chase says basically the same thing.

[Mario Fuente]

In fairness, it's pretty clear that Michael Mann was actually not present for even much of the 2nd season.   My understanding is that he was quite involved with the 1st season, and then with the prep for the 2nd, up through the making of Prodigal Son.  At that point, his attention was taken by "Band of the Hand", which he produced and which shot from the end of Sept 1985 to the middle of December 1985.  From what I can tell, Paul Michael Glaser went directly from the shoot of Prodigal Son to heavy prep for "Band", which used many of the same cast that had been seen on Vice and would be seen on Crime Story.    Michael Mann was already in heavy prep for "Red Dragon", which he directed throughout the fall of 1985 across the southeast US.  I believe Mann also took the primary 1st AD from Vice's 1st season, Herb Gains, to AD the movie for him.  Following that shoot, Mann produced the Crime Story pilot in Chicago.   During this time, John Nicolella was producing Vice's 2nd season and directing multiple eps himself.  The writing was supervised by Daniel Pyne as Joel Surnow had left to do The Equalizer and had taken Maurice Hurley with him.  I do think that Mann occasionally jumped back in after he finished filming "Red Dragon", and we can notice a bit more of his attention on the final four eps of the season.  At the time, there were fan complaints that the quality was slipping on the show and Don Johnson was quoted responding that he thought the show was just as groundbreaking as ever.

 

For the 3rd season, Mann clearly got involved in the early prep to make a series of changes, as it was felt the look needed a revamp.  Accordingly, the art direction shifted to the midnight blue day-for-night idea, and all of the cast's looks were revised.  Castillo mostly stayed the same but had longer hair.  In terms of writing and supervising production, that was indeed turned over to Dick Wolf, who tried the formula he would later use well on "Law & Order" of ripping stories from the latest news headlines.  Mann spent the 1986-87 season almost completely occupied by Crime Story, where he supervised the 60s art direction in both Chicago and Las Vegas, supervised the overall arc of the season, contributed to multiple scripts and directed its best episode, "Top of the World".  It doesn't appear that he had a lot of time for Vice until the hiatus between seasons for both shows.

 

For the 4th season, Mann is noted in a TV Guide article in Fall 1987 as having jumped into the writers' room to help supervise at one point early on with Dick Wolf.   He also clearly had the art direction and cast looks changed again.  It doesn't appear he did more than that for Vice that year.  I can't tell how much he did for Crime Story that year either, aside from general supervision and contributing to two scripts, but it does look like he was more involved with the show in Vegas than the one in Miami.  My understanding is that he had a plan for a 3rd year of Crime Story that would have taken the action to a totally new area, but NBC cancelled it so its story ended with the ridiculous plane crash cliffhanger.   

 

By the 5th season, it does not appear that Mann was that engaged with Vice, as he was preparing his "LA Takedown" pilot and the 6 hour "Drug Wars" miniseries.  

 

A question remains as to who the "Frank Holman" writer pseudonym was for on the final Vice episode.  I doubt it was Mann, who would not have been shy about participating had he done so.  I'm thinking it was Chuck Adamson, who could well have been rewritten by the then-current Vice producers and it would make sense for him to take his name off if he felt the writing no longer matched his intentions.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mario Fuente
typo

[Tom]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Mario Fuente:

In fairness, it's pretty clear that Michael Mann was actually not present for even much of the 2nd season.   My understanding is that he was quite involved with the 1st season, and then with the prep for the 2nd, up through the making of Prodigal Son.  At that point, his attention was taken by "Band of the Hand", which he produced and which shot from the end of Sept 1985 to the middle of December 1985.  From what I can tell, Paul Michael Glaser went directly from the shoot of Prodigal Son to heavy prep for "Band", which used many of the same cast that had been seen on Vice and would be seen on Crime Story.    Michael Mann was already in heavy prep for "Red Dragon", which he directed throughout the fall of 1985 across the southeast US.  I believe Mann also took the primary 1st AD from Vice's 1st season, Herb Gains, to AD the movie for him.  Following that shoot, Mann produced the Crime Story pilot in Chicago.   During this time, John Nicolella was producing Vice's 2nd season and directing multiple eps himself.  The writing was supervised by Daniel Pyne as Joel Surnow had left to do The Equalizer and had taken Maurice Hurley with him.  I do think that Mann occasionally jumped back in after he finished filming "Red Dragon", and we can notice a bit more of his attention on the final four eps of the season.  At the time, there were fan complaints that the quality was slipping on the show and Don Johnson was quoted responding that he thought the show was just as groundbreaking as ever.

 

For the 3rd season, Mann clearly got involved in the early prep to make a series of changes, as it was felt the look needed a revamp.  Accordingly, the art direction shifted to the midnight blue day-for-night idea, and all of the cast's looks were revised.  Castillo mostly stayed the same but had longer hair.  In terms of writing and supervising production, that was indeed turned over to Dick Wolf, who tried the formula he would later use well on "Law & Order" of ripping stories from the latest news headlines.  Mann spent the 1986-87 season almost completely occupied by Crime Story, where he supervised the 60s art direction in both Chicago and Las Vegas, supervised the overall arc of the season, contributed to multiple scripts and directed its best episode, "Top of the World".  It doesn't appear that he had a lot of time for Vice until the hiatus between seasons for both shows.

 

For the 4th season, Mann is noted in a TV Guide article in Fall 1987 as having jumped into the writers' room to help supervise at one point early on with Dick Wolf.   He also clearly had the art direction and cast looks changed again.  It doesn't appear he did more than that for Vice that year.  I can't tell how much he did for Crime Story that year either, aside from general supervision and contributing to two scripts, but it does look like he was more involved with the show in Vegas than the one in Miami.  My understanding is that he had a plan for a 3rd year of Crime Story that would have taken the action to a totally new area, but NBC cancelled it so its story ended with the ridiculous plane crash cliffhanger.   

 

By the 5th season, it does not appear that Mann was that engaged with Vice, as he was preparing his "LA Takedown" pilot and the 6 hour "Drug Wars" miniseries.  

 

A question remains as to who the "Frank Holman" writer pseudonym was for on the final Vice episode.  I doubt it was Mann, who would not have been shy about participating had he done so.  I'm thinking it was Chuck Adamson, who could well have been rewritten by the then-current Vice producers and it would make sense for him to take his name off if he felt the writing no longer matched his intentions.

It is generally true that MM focused on Band of the Hand and Crime story in 1986 (season 3). But he was fully engaged in season 2 and it is an urban legend that he did hardly anything later on. We know from a 2020 Tim Truman interview that MM supervised a lot of details even in season 5, including that he reviewed all episode material including Truman´s score, culminating in an advice to Tim Truman (quote) "Don´t do Jan Hammer. Do what you think is right. If I don´t like it, you´re gone."

[Mario Fuente]

I hear you, but "Band of the Hand" and "Red Dragon" were actually filmed in the latter half of 1985.   They were put through Post Production through the spring of 1986 for theatrical release that year.  It's misleading to think of those films as being done in 1986, as they were written and made in the prior year.   Further, the "Crime Story" pilot movie was filmed in Chicago in early 1986.  Mann could not have been in both places at once.  He's also known for completely immersing himself when he directs, going extremely late every night both in filming and editing.   

 

This doesn't mean that he was unaware of how things were going on Vice during Season 2.  He was constantly talking to them and looking at scripts and episode cuts.  But his time was greatly limited in a way that it had not been during the first year.  And during Season 3, he clearly had his hands full with "Crime Story" and beyond the initial prep of Vice, he was again just looking at cuts and talking to Dick Wolf as time permitted.   My understanding of it is that Mann doesn't like to stay in one place too long, and he tends to want to get moving on his next project as it comes up.

 

For the 5th season, you're correct that he would still have been looking at scripts and rough cuts, but there's nothing in that season that indicates he was particularly engaged.

[Glades]

9 hours ago, Mario Fuente said:

I hear you, but "Band of the Hand" and "Red Dragon" were actually filmed in the latter half of 1985.   They were put through Post Production through the spring of 1986 for theatrical release that year.  It's misleading to think of those films as being done in 1986, as they were written and made in the prior year.   Further, the "Crime Story" pilot movie was filmed in Chicago in early 1986.  Mann could not have been in both places at once.  He's also known for completely immersing himself when he directs, going extremely late every night both in filming and editing. 

That´s interesting! Always thought Michael Mann spend in S2 most of his time in Miami.

[Tom]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Mario Fuente:

For the 5th season, you're correct that he would still have been looking at scripts and rough cuts, but there's nothing in that season that indicates he was particularly engaged.

We have witness reports that say otherwise. MM was and is a detail maniac. In season 5, he called for example Tim Truman several times to say how he liked specific scores (he also hire Truman later for his "Heat" original called "LA takedown") as he supervised his new music himself. So, he was involved in lot of details that he would not have needed to do with co-executive producers Robert Ward and Richard Brams on board in season 5 and this is definitely particular engagement.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Tom

[Augusta]

Michael Mann is an artistic dynamo, and a superb visionary, who can see strongly what image on-screen can work, can see that it doesn't matter if it hasn't been done before, and knows how to capture and retain visual entities he discovers around him (like the "look" of Japan's cities at night, or the glisten of white sand and palm trees on the outskirts of a Florida district, or the lights of Vegas casinos at 2am).  
Thank heaven he has the riveting force to push an idea through, when working in a yuck environment like Hollywood---I think most of the genuinely creative people in Hollywood get too easily defeated by other associates' lack of understanding/ refusal to pay the expense/ scheming motives/ conceited counter-arguing/ laziness, etc.  

But Michael, from what I can tell, enjoys being a "creator".  He takes his vision, makes something stunning out of the nothing that was sitting in front of us all the time, and WOW, the result is a Heat, or a Thief, or Manhunter, Miami Vice and Crime Story.   
But unfortunately I also get this feeling that sitting around and maintaining, protecting, sustaining and guarding the creation... is just not where his visionary mind lives.  I doubt he much enjoys that part of the process.  I wish he WAS the kind of person who enjoys it, because making something like Miami Vice that few others can really understand the mechanics of, means investing the constant time overseeing it/arguing with production moguls/ money-money-money haggling/ big-headed stars. And if he had stayed fully entrenched, nothing in Vice would have gotten terribly bad as the seasons evolved.  Vice would have stayed enough on track that fans would keep gulping it down (and maybe Yerkovitch would not have been inclined to leave----who left first?). 
 
Back to a Star Wars comparison:  George Lucas was (is) a visionary who STAYS with his creation---it's where his mind compels him to be, "protecting" your creation in this nutty Hollywood until your adversaries nearly have to beat you to death to take it from you.  Michael Mann is a visionary who enjoys "his next vision", more than his current successes.  His mind won't let him STAY with his present creation for very long---his head is telling him "My plane was passing over LA at sunset before landing, and this new idea came to me....!", and that's Michael's happy world.  I reluctantly have to respect that.  Mann's body of work has easily earned my default respect.

Like I said, I really wish he was more of a Lucas-kind of creator, for the obvious selfish benefits it would have brought to my Vice series.  But if "my next new idea around the corner" is the purpose that brings joy to Mann, then I suppose it's right to go after that purpose with both hands, full speed and happiness,...and (sob, sob) leave his Miami Vice to the Hollywood wolv---err, Hollywood alligators.  

[Glades]

Good thoughts!

11 hours ago, Augusta said:

and maybe Yerkovitch would not have been inclined to leave----who left first?

Yerkovich went first. He already left the show after "One eyed Jack". "No Exit" was the first episode where Michael Mann was the only executive producer. And Michael Mann was certainly heavily involved and on the scene throughout S1, from what I know.

However, I think Yerkovich and Michael Mann had too different ideas about Miami Vice for the two of them to have been able to work together long-term. Mann held Yerkovich in high esteem, but he certainly had his own ideas about the theme of the show.
A major difference seems to me to be that for Yerkovich, although the cops loved their work very much and were very committed, they still had a private life, their own life after work.
Once Mann took over as only executive producer that changed. The OCB became more like a monastery and was the team's entire life. There was, at least for many episodes, no relevant life for the team members outside the OCB anymore.

[Augusta]

Aaahhh.  I would have liked for that difference of viewpoints between Yerkovich and Mann to go head-to-head through the seasons.  NOT as a personal war or resentfulness between the two geniuses, heavens no.  But as a running dynamic through the show, where we have episodes with the Monastary-jobplace you described, contrasted against episodes that show private-life trying to break free from the job.  No fan could deny that that isn't a real component of real vice or undercover work---so seeing it throughout MV would have been terrific.  
I know we glimpse it a LITTLE throughout the series with the characters... But nothing would have been wrong with seeing it MORE:
"Miami is loving the coke fun.  It doesn't care about you Vice cops.  Driven in your jobs, wasting your family life.... that's for losers.  Come feel the seduction of Miami... your private lives would be so much better if you just drop the badge and come join us.  Take a taste.  Take a taste."  I think Yerkovich could have captured that annoying job-related pain well.  I would have paid good money to see Season 4 through 5 change slowly into THAT kind of cop reality, rather than have to watch the rather dull "copy procedurals" reality that Wolf's crew brought to the show.

Ah, well.... To dream a dream.....Thirty years away in the past.

[Mario Fuente]

The Tim Truman interview from 2020 is very helpful.  He confirms that Michael Mann was available to him, giving him notes and some guidance.  Based on Truman's comments about the spotting notes, I'd say that Mann was watching cuts of episodes.   Truman also discusses working on "LA Takedown", which Mann filmed in Los Angeles in Spring 1989, with the prep/production period overlapping the last episodes of Vice on the other coast.   This is another case where Mann simply could not be in both places at once.  IMDB indicates "LA Takedown" filmed in May 1989, but that would be too late for a pilot film, which it was.  Without seeing production documents for it, I can't prove when it was done, but I'd guess it was March-April, so NBC could evaluate it before the mid-May upfronts.  Truman mentions having to go onto "LA Takedown" without much of a break after finishing Vice.  (He also mentions simultaneously scoring Miami Vice and the classical Newhart, which is a heck of a combination...)  BTW Truman's account of working on "LA Takedown" after Vice makes sense - NBC would have been looking at a temp-tracked copy of Mann's cut of the pilot.  When they chose to air it as a summer burn-off, Mann was able to spend a little more time with it and have Truman give it a proper score. 

 

Regarding Tony Yerkovich, he left fairly soon into the run, right after they brought in Edward James Olmos.   From what I can tell, Yerkovich started the project and helped to cast it, but Michael Mann fully took it over when he got there.  A similar moment happened on "Luck" in 2011.  David Milch had started that project and was known to control his shows, as seen in "Deadwood" and "NYPD Blue".  But when Mann came on board, the dynamic shifted to Mann, and while Milch's presence as a writer is unmistakeable, there is no confusion when one sees that show who is actually running it.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Mario Fuente

[Vincent Hanna]

Did they only do Seasons 4 and 5 JUST so they'd have enough episodes for syndication? That doesn't sound like a very pleasant creative experience for anyone.

I wonder if they could've done something similar to Star Trek: The Next Generation where that was sold directly into syndication. Could they have announced mid-S2 that MV was finishing at the end of the season and then stations could bid for the syndication rights while the show was popular?

Edited March 19, 2022 by Vincent Hanna

[AzVice]

no i don't think that's the case. it was just outside the top 20 in season 3 so there was no question they'd come back for season 4. I'm sure had ratings picked back up there would have been more than 5 seasons, but at that budget it wasn't paying to do more than that with the consistent decline.

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, Vincent Hanna said:

Did they only do Seasons 4 and 5 JUST so they'd have enough episodes for syndication? That doesn't sound like a very pleasant creative experience for anyone. (snipped)

I think at the end of S3 MV was still quite popular.  It was really during S4 that ratings started to slip.  In the 80s, the magic number of shows needed for syndication was 100 (from what I've read at the time and since).  However, during S5 they would have passed that 100-episode marker, and with ratings continuing to decline and DJ (at least) evidently ready to leave and anxious to have more flexibility to work other projects outside of the short hiatus, I think there was no desire from anyone (network, production heads, DJ, etc.) to continue past a fifth season.  PMT, Michael Talbott, Saundra Santiago, Olivia Brown, etc., may have wanted to continue, but without the *star,* I don't think any of them could have carried the show.  Also it's known that the network wanted to save money on expensive location shooting and that was another factor against continuing.

Today, with the profusion of cable channels and streaming services, we have seen that shows can still have successful syndication runs with less than 100 episodes, and a different decision may have been made for MV if it was being made in the last 10 years; perhaps S5 wouldn't have happened at all.  Some here don't like the Burnett arc, but IMO that was one of the better stories from S5 or even S4. 

[RedDragon86]

Without Mann there was something greatly missing and you could sense and see it for yourself after season 2, that is proof alone at how influential he was behind the scenes.

Edited March 20, 2022 by RedDragon86

[AzVice]

and the change from John Nicolella to Dick Wolf as producer

that reminds me, starting in the fall of 88' it was already in syndication on USA network. but of course they were assured of 100 episodes with the 5th season coming.

[Mario Fuente]

I remember Edward James Olmos saying in an interview around 1989 that he felt that Miami Vice had had its moment early on in 1984-85 but that it was pretty much over in the 5th season.  He did not sound sentimental about it at all at the time.   Later on, some cast would say they thought the show was cancelled at its peak, but that's a really hard argument to make.

 

The one cast member who did seem to have a more earnest run in the 5th season was Michael Talbott, who lost weight and really tried to contribute what he could in the gambling story.  It just wasn't well written or directed and he wasn't able to find much depth in performing it.

[Mario Fuente]

I have come across a bit more information, having now spent time with two people who worked as low-level producers on Miami Vice.  

The first one started in the Locations Department and worked his way up to be a co-producer by the end of the series.  He was on pretty much from the moment the show went to series after the pilot movie and finished when they wrapped the last episode of Season 5.  He told me that when he started on the show, his job was to go to these expensive deco houses and ask the owners for permission to film there.   When Michael Mann saw his car, which was a low-end Ford as he didn't have a lot of money, he stepped in.  Mann had the series lease a Mercedes for him, so that the owners of these expensive houses would see that the people asking to film at their home actually had the means to do so in style.   

 

The second one worked through the third and fourth seasons, mostly working in Post-Production but also in the writing area.  He was quite frank with me about the level of Michael Mann's involvement from Season 3 on.  He told me that Mann was almost never involved with them, as he was extremely involved in "Crime Story" as there were major challenges on that production.  He specifically noted that the production had needed to move out of Chicago and relocate itself to Las Vegas, indicating that this wound up happening a lot earlier than anyone thought would be the case.  He noted that "Crime Story" was a difficult and time-intensive show that was always just hanging on until it was finally cancelled in early 1988.   Following the end of the fourth season of Vice and the cancellation of "Crime Story", this producer moved on to other shows as the quality was seriously dropping and it was disheartening to him to see it.  He noted that Mann was constantly busy at that point trying to start up other shows - particularly his "LA Takedown" series about "Vincent Hanna" and his "Drug Wars" miniseries ideas.  He doubted that Mann was any more involved in the final season than he had been during the third and fourth years.  (This wouldn't preclude Mann looking at cuts and giving notes here and there, including his conversations with Tim Truman, but it just meant that he was not on set or really that personally connected to what was being written or filmed.)  This producer told me that he was never able to watch the final episode of Vice all the way through as it was just too much of a letdown from where the series had been at the beginning.  He told me that he believed the quality of the first season could be attributed not just to Mann's involvement then but also to the work of John Nicolella, who he said would push to get the big budget moments in the initial year that could not be found later on, particularly in the final season of the series.   He said that when Nicolella left the show, Richard Brams took over that area of the work and the budget began to be increasingly cut back.

 

I asked both producers if they could tell me what writer used the pseudonym "Frank Holman" on the final episode of "Vice".  The first one had no idea and couldn't remember anything about it.  The second one also didn't know (and needed me to spell the name) but said he is in contact with a few people who worked on Vice back in the day who might be able to tell him.   He told me he will email me with something when he has it.  I will stay on that and try to get a conclusive answer on it, hopefully by the end of this year.    There is a very distant possibility that I may be able to get the answer directly from the source, but that depends on many other factors.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Mario Fuente

[Tom]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Mario Fuente:

I have come across a bit more information, having now spent time with two people who worked as low-level producers on Miami Vice.  

The first one started in the Locations Department and worked his way up to be a co-producer by the end of the series.  He was on pretty much from the moment the show went to series after the pilot movie and finished when they wrapped the last episode of Season 5.  He told me that when he started on the show, his job was to go to these expensive deco houses and ask the owners for permission to film there.   When Michael Mann saw his car, which was a low-end Ford as he didn't have a lot of money, he stepped in.  Mann had the series lease a Mercedes for him, so that the owners of these expensive houses would see that the people asking to film at their home actually had the means to do so in style.   

 

The second one worked through the third and fourth seasons, mostly working in Post-Production but also in the writing area.  He was quite frank with me about the level of Michael Mann's involvement from Season 3 on.  He told me that Mann was almost never involved with them, as he was extremely involved in "Crime Story" as there were major challenges on that production.  He specifically noted that the production had needed to move out of Chicago and relocate itself to Las Vegas, indicating that this wound up happening a lot earlier than anyone thought would be the case.  He noted that "Crime Story" was a difficult and time-intensive show that was always just hanging on until it was finally cancelled in early 1988.   Following the end of the fourth season of Vice and the cancellation of "Crime Story", this producer moved on to other shows as the quality was seriously dropping and it was disheartening to him to see it.  He noted that Mann was constantly busy at that point trying to start up other shows - particularly his "LA Takedown" series about "Vincent Hanna" and his "Drug Wars" miniseries ideas.  He doubted that Mann was any more involved in the final season than he had been during the third and fourth years.  (This wouldn't preclude Mann looking at cuts and giving notes here and there, including his conversations with Tim Truman, but it just meant that he was not on set or really that personally connected to what was being written or filmed.)  This producer told me that he was never able to watch the final episode of Vice all the way through as it was just too much of a letdown from where the series had been at the beginning.  He told me that he believed the quality of the first season could be attributed not just to Mann's involvement then but also to the work of John Nicolella, who he said would push to get the big budget moments in the initial year that could not be found later on, particularly in the final season of the series.   He said that when Nicolella left the show, Richard Brams took over that area of the work and the budget began to be increasingly cut back.

 

I asked both producers if they could tell me what writer used the pseudonym "Frank Holman" on the final episode of "Vice".  The first one had no idea and couldn't remember anything about it.  The second one also didn't know (and needed me to spell the name) but said he is in contact with a few people who worked on Vice back in the day who might be able to tell him.   He told me he will email me with something when he has it.  I will stay on that and try to get a conclusive answer on it, hopefully by the end of this year.    There is a very distant possibility that I may be able to get the answer directly from the source, but that depends on many other factors.

Great, thanks!

we always suspected MM behind Holman which was also a character in crime story.

Would be interesting if your first contact who started in locations still has some memories Or production notes/location sheets as we are still missing some locations that we haven’t been able to find ourselves.

[RedDragon86]

After listening to a podcast, Bill Duke says he was very hands on during the filming of "Baseballs of Death" he said his attention to detail is impeccable, especially the way he creates characters.

Bill worked with Michael in Crime Story as well directing 2 episode and then later on he directed an episode in Robbery Homicide Division.

Edited July 26, 2022 by RedDragon86