The Season 3 Question

[Bren10]

I personally really like season 3 but I also know it is one of the most divisive of seasons and even topics in general when it comes to Miami Vice.  My question is if you did not like the direction it took, then what should the powers that be have done with the show going forward?  What is the alternative to what they did do?  Should it have been just seasons 1 and 2 mark 2?   I know there was a change in style, but if the world outside Miami was changing its style, shouldn't the show change with it?  Was it the storylines that were a problem, or just the asthetic change?  Was the loss of Zito an irreparable loss?  I really would like to hear people's solutions. 

[Ferrariman]

Season 2 will always be my favorite but I also liked season 3. The darker colors were cool and they didn't completely lose the pastels.  I think it was Vice's way of re-inventing itself and as we know you can't please everyone all the time.  Stories were good, the music was good. After 2 seasons, more of the same may not have necessarily been a good move. It was time for a change and in my opinion, they pulled it off in style!

[RedDragon86]

I don't think it would have re invented itself if Michael Mann stayed, apparently with the clothing, he wanted to make the pastels a deeper color.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by RedDragon86

[summer84]

In the book Making of Miami Vice, it says that Michael Mann was "sick of pastels" and that there was going to be changes for the new season. The pastels were the show's signature look, but Miami Vice reflected the 80's pop culture and followed the trends as the shifted. So there were plans to keep to the show fresh and up to date, although I had wanted them to stay with the "old" look, which they went back to in Season 4, but the fashion wasn't as great for Crockett and Tubbs. I'm personally not a fan of S3. They shouldn't have changed Crockett's hairstyle and kept it like it was in "The Prodigal Son." One other thing, that really bothered me and something that you didn't mention was the serious tone that the characters had. It's like they had gotten a new personality. I felt in that regard that Season 1 was mostly balanced, when it came to mixing humor and seriousness. Dick Wolf was brought in to improve the show storywise, which I think he did manage to with in depth stories. As Season 2 was criticized for being all over the place and probably the episode with most style over substance. I think my favorite season would be Season 1, it seems maybe after the first three seasons they didn't know in what direction to take the show anymore writing all sorts of stuff. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by summer84

[Bren10]

Good points.  I don't mind the seriousness myself, but then it never occurred to me as an issue either.  In fact, the issues with s3 and subsequent seasons only really occurred to me upon repeat viewing and analysis years on.  Watching the show in real time in its original run, the show's changes just seemed natural and not at all jarring.  Maybe that's partly because I was really young.  But that is why I find it fascinating now to see people's extreme opinions on these issues.

[summer84]

9 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Good points.  I don't mind the seriousness myself, but then it never occurred to me as an issue either.  In fact, the issues with s3 and subsequent seasons only really occurred to me upon repeat viewing and analysis years on.  Watching the show in real time in its original run, the show's changes just seemed natural and not at all jarring.  Maybe that's partly because I was really young.  But that is why I find it fascinating now to see people's extreme opinions on these issues.

"Extreme opinions" haha.  When something drastic like the complete transformation of the show happens, how can you not but notice and be affected by it. I recall, that the fans of the show during it's original run weren't satisfied with the new look. There is even a reference regarding this in one of the Golden Girls episodes, where Dorothy says: No, I'm upset because Crockett and Tubbs are wearing darker colors or clothes. 

[Bren10]

That's funny.  My grandmother was a big fan of the Golden Girls.  I understand that the show changed its look some, but many shows that ran for more than a couple of seasons did too.  To me, at the time, Miami Vice was just one more show that did that.  It still had the essence, or the soul, of what made it Miami Vice and I think that lessened the blow of stylistic change.  At least to me.

[Bren10]

There are some people who gave up on the show altogether just because of the asthetic change.  I think that's partly what I mean when I say extreme.

[summer84]

It takes time to get adjusted to new things and if it no longer brings you the joy, that you loved the show for, then what is one to do? I must admit, that I have stopped watching show's, when the storylines fell in quality, a certain character left, who contributed to keep it interesting or it simply changed in a direction that didn't interest me no longer. But that is just natural, I think.  

[Bren10]

But you didn't give up on Vice entirely, right?  So the change wasn't totally bad?  In other words you still saw something in the show that made it worth watching?  Or did you stick around hoping it would improve somehow?  As a side note, I did that with wrestling for awhile until I just couldn't take it anymore, so I know what you're saying.

[Ferrariman]

I think I was more upset by the loss of the Daytona than the change in colors and hair styles.  Even though it was a fake, I liked the Daytona better than the Testarossa.

[Kladdagh]

Darker tone, new clothes & car for Crockett ... I really like the fellings I have when looking the series on season 3 ... 

[RedDragon86]

On 11/15/2018 at 11:36 PM, summer84 said:

In the book Making of Miami Vice, it says that Michael Mann was "sick of pastels" and that there was going to be changes for the new season. The pastels were the show's signature look, but Miami Vice reflected the 80's pop culture and followed the trends as the shifted. So there were plans to keep to the show fresh and up to date, although I had wanted them to stay with the "old" look, which they went back to in Season 4, but the fashion wasn't as great for Crockett and Tubbs. I'm personally not a fan of S3. They shouldn't have changed Crockett's hairstyle and kept it like it was in "The Prodigal Son." One other thing, that really bothered me and something that you didn't mention was the serious tone that the characters had. It's like they had gotten a new personality. I felt in that regard that Season 1 was mostly balanced, when it came to mixing humor and seriousness. Dick Wolf was brought in to improve the show storywise, which I think he did manage to with in depth stories. As Season 2 was criticized for being all over the place and probably the episode with most style over substance. I think my favorite season would be Season 1, it seems maybe after the first three seasons they didn't know in what direction to take the show anymore writing all sorts of stuff. 

Michael Mann wanted to make the pastels hotter in color, almost like neon.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by RedDragon86

[summer84]

16 hours ago, Bren10 said:

But you didn't give up on Vice entirely, right?  So the change wasn't totally bad?  In other words you still saw something in the show that made it worth watching?  Or did you stick around hoping it would improve somehow?  As a side note, I did that with wrestling for awhile until I just couldn't take it anymore, so I know what you're saying.

I don't remember exactly. Despite that I strongly dislike some of the changes in S3 it is still watchable. My mind won't change regarding the darker look and tone, but will have to watch S3 again, to see how I feel about the quality of the content, even though I remember it as being good. I gave up after Season 4. Couldn't get into Season 5. But will try and give S5 a chance again. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by summer84

[Bren10]

1 minute ago, summer84 said:

I don't remember exactly. Despite that I strongly dislike some of the changes in S3 it is still watchable. My mind won't change regarding look and tone, but will have to watch S3 again, to see how I feel about the quality of the content, even though I rember it as being good. I gave up after Season 4. Couldn't get into Season 5. But will try and give S5 a chance again. 

Did you actually finish s5?  I assume you saw Freefall at least.

[summer84]

2 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Did you actually finish s5?  I assume you saw Freefall at least.

I think I watched all of Season 5 and then skipped some. Yes. 

[Bren10]

Well that's good.  I would give s5 another go.  There are some good things there, even if you have to wade thru some bad to get to it.  If you can get thru s4 I'd say you can handle s5.  My main problem with it was some of the Crockett-less episodes.

[summer84]

5 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Michael Mann wanted to make the pastels hotter in color, almost like neon.

I don't believe season 2 was style over substance, it was style and substance  I mean the storylines are strong throughout, we have a serious rape case, "Out Where The Buses Don't Run"  one of the greatest episodes ever, the finale was brilliant, an episode with a female serial killer, Junk Love, Payback, Phil The Shill, Definitely Miami, Yankee Dollar, One Way Ticket, Buddies, Bushido, Prodigal Son etc this season was awesome.

Dick Wolf could only dream of bettering these storylines, he was miles out, some of the stories in 3 were poor, I mean Viking Bikers what was that all about? Baby Blues, Everybody in Showbiz and Heroes of the Revolution where Gina actually plays her mother instead of casting a Latino singer? jeez. Orlando Calderons return was so poorly done, Zito getting murdered, maybe getting fired or a new job would have been better? and what about Tubbs former New York partner? was anybody actually convinced he was his partner back in NYC in Better Living Through Chemistry? I didn't buy that at all. 

They rehashed episodes and ideas as well, so I didn't feel anything new really. 

Killshot- The Fix

Lend Me An Ear - Out Where The Buses Don't Run

Knock Knock Whos There? - taking from Wheelers story. 

Irish Eyes - elements taking from No Exit

Stones War - Back In the World part 2

The Good Collar - Milk Run

Even Shadow in the Dark was a watered down Manhunter version.

 

 

 

There is no doubt, that Season 2 has some fantastic episodes. As I've said before, I think S2 had a lot more style, that overshadowed the substance, that should have been in the storylines. I think the first three season are the best. S4 has some good episodes too in between. 

[SwissTubbs]

I really dont care about the changes in fashion and colors because it was still "stylish" and cool. Only different. But still cool.
For me it was still Miami Vice. Miami Vice 2.0 you could say
Im not one of those people like "If you change the color its not Miami Vice anymore". It still felt big and epic and with lots of style.
And after 2 Seasons i like the change of storylines. It feels fresh. To be honest the first 2 Thirds of the season has some of the best episodes of the entire run.
Its only the last third of the season that really lacks quality at all. And we are still not at Season 4 Cow or Missing Hours level

The Big drop in quality came for me in Season 4.
First of all Tubbs screentime is reduced. The Duo Dynamic is changed heavily.
Then there are a couple of stinkers (for example big thaw, missing hours, cow) in there mixed with mediocre episodes.
Yes Season 4 thankfully still has some great episodes (Death and the lady for example) but its really a mixed bag. I wrote that in Season 3 the bad Episodes are all towards the end.
Well in Season 4 its so mixed. From really bad to great you have everything! This makes it so hard to watch that season. I rarely watch the season in order. Im picking the good candys out of it hehe.

Also Season 4 felt cheaper. As if the budget was not there anymore. Compared with the production values of Season 1, 2 and two thirds of Season 3 its obvious. Thats even more bad in Season 5.
THAT for me was losing style. Not some color and Fashion changes on a high level.

I was never really into Season 5. Feels for the most part as if the life was sucked out of miami vice.
Yes its not that mixed in quality in comparison with season 4 but its overall mediocre and dull with a few really good episodes.
And it felt too less miami vice. Not that much music, no Jan Hammer, DJ is not there for a lot of episodes, Budget Cuts and therefore again a decline in production values and...and....and.
 

The First 3 Seasons of MV are gold! The last 2 are sometimes hard to watch. You have to cherry pick the good episodes.
Missing Hours is even one of the worst Episodes in Television History in my book for an A-List Show.

Edited November 16, 2018 by SwissTubbs

[airtommy]

On 11/15/2018 at 12:13 AM, Bren10 said:

I personally really like season 3 but I also know it is one of the most divisive of seasons and even topics in general when it comes to Miami Vice.  My question is if you did not like the direction it took, then what should the powers that be have done with the show going forward?

This is a good question.  We've discussed whether we like the changes and in what season the dropoff occurred, but not really what they should have done instead.

Some problems were inevitable.   You couldn't stop Michael Mann from leaving the show.  Opportunity had come knocking at his door and he had to answer.  The stars, especially Don Johnson, got huge salary increases.  It's been said that this impacted the show's budget.  Again, a predictable and inevitable event.

One possibility would have been to let John Nicolella take over the show instead of Dick Wolf.  But I really don't know anything about TV production, if he was suitable, did he want the job?   I've never really heard why he left.  Was he fired?

[summer84]

It seems The Mann himself struggled with how to move on forward with the fashion for the upcoming season 3. Not copying themselves. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by summer84

[Matt5]

The early Season 3 style with the dark suits was a really great look. Armani, Versace and Hugo Boss suits featured heavily in the Summer- fall of 1986.

[Bren10]

If you dress up S3 in S1/S2 style would that make it better?  Or is it the actual content that there is a problem with?

[summer84]

Well, I will have to watch Season 3 again to better give my view on the content, but I remember it as being good and still watchable. As I have mentioned before, what bothered me the most was the darker tone and style of the show, plus Crockett's new haircut. I think they could have stuck with S1/S2 style and tone and still added some darker clothes from time to time and experiment with new fashion design for the cast. Just keep some things recognizable and balanced like it was in S1. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by summer84

[Remington]

Personally, I loved the look of S3. I dug the shorter hair on Crockett and the darker colors. Towards the end, I didn't like the Crockett mullet and some of the fashion was getting pretty weird. Also, it seems almost exactly halfway through the season, the photography just becomes softer and dull. Never liked that.

The two changes I didn't like were getting rid of the Daytona and that the endings became predictably bleak pretty soon.

S1-S2 are my favorites (S4 I even watch a bit more than S3) but I think the third season was pretty damn good apart from four or five episodes, mostly towards the end.