When Should Vice Have Stopped?

[Bren10]

It seems like many people don't know what they want.  Some say the show effectively ended at the onset of season 3.  Other people all but disown seasons 4 and 5.  Others say the show appropriately ended when the 80s ended.  PMT said he wanted it to be like Bonanza and go on and on, as do many fans. Still others pine for a reunion picking up with the original characters.  All shows have to end though, so my question is when do you think the show truly should have ended and should the events of Freefall be what ended it?

[James]

I was thinking about this last night, and came up with that it should've ended when John Diehl (Zito) left.

I kind of like season 3 though, it wasn't as strong as the first two seasons but it was still decent. But it should've ended there because Dick Wolf pretty much ruined the show. 75% of Seasons 4 & 5 is just stupid, unnecessary, boring. I turned off Vote of Confidence after 20 minutes the other night, I just couldn't sit there watching the prototype of "Law & Order", it was so boring I couldn't even fall asleep to it. It was just making anxious from boredom. Imagine that on loop, it'll be like hell on Earth! I remember thinking "I'd rather watch Missing Hours than this boring crap".  

I think Miami Vice could've gone on longer, for maybe 8 seasons even, or go on forever like NCIS, as long as the original crew members, writers, etc. stuck around. But after new management in the beginning of Season 3, they got rid of the winning formula and got their own people and made their own show, which was sub-par. That was the beginning of the downfall of the show. How many season 4 episodes are actually about vice? 

Not sure how I feel about Freefall being the finale either, I feel like it should've been something more that made them quit. 

 

[Bren10]

I too like season 3 and have often defended it.  Does that mean Down For The Count should've been the series finale or something totally different depicting Zito's exit?  You make a good point about the original staff.  Maybe C & T shouldn't have been made to quit at all and just gone into the sunset fighting crime because it's all they know how to do.

[James]

1 minute ago, Bren10 said:

I too like season 3 and have often defended it.  Does that mean Down For The Count should've been the series finale or something totally different depicting Zito's exit?  You make a good point about the original staff.  Maybe C & T shouldn't have been made to quit at all and just gone into the sunset fighting crime because it's all they know how to do.

Nah I wouldn't end on Down for The Count, but finish up the season as an ending to the series.

Still have some episodes after that leading up to a finale, tie up loose ends with the Calderone family with The Afternoon Plane, have Crockett meet and marry Caitlin, have Deliver Us From Evil, then the Burnett trillogy, World of Trouble to tie up the Lombard story, and then end it on Freefall.  

[summer84]

The show people fell in love with was Miami Vice's first two seasons. That's when it was most successful. It reached it's peak early on. After that the magic was gone with the show going in a  different direction with a complete transformation adding a new look and darker tone and bringing in Dick Wolf to improve the storylines. It wasen't the same show anymore.

I agree with James, that S3 was still decent and watchable compared to what S4 and S5 developed/turned into and that they should have stuck with the original formular and crew. Just stick to what they knew worked best with the audience, not fix something that was working. As I've said before, they were pleasing the critic's too much, who criticised S2 for focusing more on style than substance. It would have been a shame, if Miami Vice had only lasted three seasons back then, but since it lost direction and it's identity in S4 with storylines all over the place and S5, I couldn't picture MV continuing beyond the 80's. The show reflected the 80s popculture and gave Vice that special vibe, that's why I felt it ended in the right decade. But also at the right time, since they had told all the stories there were to tell. They had just used up most of the ideas. 

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, summer84 said:

It would have been a shame, if Miami Vice had only lasted three seasons back then, but since it lost direction and it's identity in S4 with storylines all over the place and S5

It's intriguing to wonder if MV had been a modern show, with potential for reaping back its production costs through streaming services, would the powers-that-be have kept it going for 5 years.  IMO that was the main reason for Season 5 (at least)--NBC wanted to get its money back via syndication fees, and shows with at least 5 seasons to offer were more marketable.

That said, I liked most of the S3 episodes.  I enjoyed the topicality and the variety of situations portrayed, although I know not everyone does.  S4 was a slide backward, but still offered some good eps.  I liked Child's Play, Blood and Roses, Deliver Us From Evil, Mirror Image, and Like a Hurricane (although I wish its events had been stretched into a 2-parter; everything happened too quickly).  I actually liked A Bullet for Crockett, although as a clip show it was a weak ep; for me it did offer some additional facets of the squad's closeness. Amen, Send Money ws OK, and I found Cows of October amusing and different.  I didn't care for the eps that tried to delve into Sonny and Caitlin's marriage-job trials (Rock and a Hard Place, Love at First Sight).   Missing Hours--ugh!  The remaining eps were forgettable for me.

S5--I enjoyed the Burnett saga.  The Lost Madonna was OK.  I enjoyed seeing Sonny interact with Caroline again, and the fishing scene with Tubbs at the end of To Have and to Hold.  Too Much, Too Late closed the door on the Tubbs-Valerie relationship in a way that seemed right.  I did not like Freefall and continue to feel it could have been so much better, but it does (now) feel like the inevitable end.  The rest--very much so-so/forgettable.

[RedDragon86]

Ideally we all wish Mann had stayed, we really should be grateful that Wolf wasn't in full control of season 3 because it is a solid season with Dennis Cooper's influence. 

 

[Robbie C.]

I like season 3 as well. Where I think Vice suffered is a lack of solid mid-level staffing. Writers mainly. If you look at shows like The Shield and Justified they work because the writers stuck to the concept and vision (The Shield was especially brilliant here). NCIS LA has been ticking on for years, and what makes that work (and I use it as an example because of the presence of Vice fans and people in the production) is the focus on the dynamic growth of the core characters. I do think, though, that once they lost Zito and didn't replace him the writing was on the wall. Stan became a fifth wheel; hard to fit into the existing partner dynamics. A solid writing team could also have avoided the issues with Crockett's background and come up with some more solid plots for him without dragging Carolyn back in (I was never a fan of her, honestly). Had they done some of those things, I think you could have gotten a couple more seasons out of Vice. But the trick is also knowing when to stop. Too many shows these days don't know when it's time to stop. The good ones do.

[summer84]

7 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

It's intriguing to wonder if MV had been a modern show, with potential for reaping back its production costs through streaming services, would the powers-that-be have kept it going for 5 years.  IMO that was the main reason for Season 5 (at least)--NBC wanted to get its money back via syndication fees, and shows with at least 5 seasons to offer were more marketable.

That said, I liked most of the S3 episodes.  I enjoyed the topicality and the variety of situations portrayed, although I know not everyone does.  S4 was a slide backward, but still offered some good eps.  I liked Child's Play, Blood and Roses, Deliver Us From Evil, Mirror Image, and Like a Hurricane (although I wish its events had been stretched into a 2-parter; everything happened too quickly).  I actually liked A Bullet for Crockett, although as a clip show it was a weak ep; for me it did offer some additional facets of the squad's closeness. Amen, Send Money ws OK, and I found Cows of October amusing and different.  I didn't care for the eps that tried to delve into Sonny and Caitlin's marriage-job trials (Rock and a Hard Place, Love at First Sight).   Missing Hours--ugh!  The remaining eps were forgettable for me.

S5--I enjoyed the Burnett saga.  The Lost Madonna was OK.  I enjoyed seeing Sonny interact with Caroline again, and the fishing scene with Tubbs at the end of To Have and to Hold.  Too Much, Too Late closed the door on the Tubbs-Valerie relationship in a way that seemed right.  I did not like Freefall and continue to feel it could have been so much better, but it does (now) feel like the inevitable end.  The rest--very much so-so/forgettable.

It seems to me, that NBC had already planned for S5 to be the final season, before production started since there was only ordered 13 episodes at first, even though it was then changed to 22. Also the ratings very low and DJ was absent a lot and ready to move on. And yeah, I guess a combination of those things lead to it ending. 

You're right, there are some good episodes to choose from, but it's hard to watch a full season in order, because of the inconsistent quality in episodes. It ruins the enjoyment, when you have to skip episodes. I still think those episode shouldn't be missed out on despite a bad season. 

Edited February 25, 2019 by summer84

[Vincent Hanna]

Why was there such a ridiculous decline in quality from S3 to S4? This is the first time I noticed Dennis Cooper's name, was he responsible for the success of S3 compared to S4?

Say what you want about S3 but the people who made it evidently still enjoyed and cared about what they were doing. The quality of the show more or less remained, regardless of the whether the fans felt betrayed by this new direction. The ripped-from-the-headlines storylines were a nice addition to the show, the topics blended seamlessly(well some more than others) into the show like covering the US involvement in Nicaragua with returning guest star G Gordon Liddy etc. If that episode had Crockett dressed in his classic pastel attire and driving his Daytona it would be held as a high point in the series. I think that justifies S3's existence alone.

The end of S3 felt like a natural stopping point. I imagine it would've been obvious to everyone in the cast and crew that the show wasn't going anywhere but down from then on, so they could've pre-emptively saved it from itself. The writing was on the wall. They could've done a 2 part finale in Ireland or Japan, or wherever they planned before it was scrapped and the show would be remembered as a pretty much flawless series.

All the cast could've merrily went off and did their own thing without being dragged down into the sinking ship. It's easy for us forget how shockingly bad S4 is because we''ve accepted it but at the time it must've been unfathomable.

[summer84]

Miami Vice couldn't compete with Dallas, when it was placed on the same time slot in S3. Also the season ended on a 22 rating, which is not bad. The constant changes did have an impact on the show. 

An article, that gives some insight: 

Season 4: Miami Vice must prove it self again. 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1987-09-25-8703150851-story.html

Edited February 25, 2019 by summer84

[Bren10]

1 hour ago, Vincent Hanna said:

Why was there such a ridiculous decline in quality from S3 to S4? This is the first time I noticed Dennis Cooper's name, was he responsible for the success of S3 compared to S4?

Say what you want about S3 but the people who made it evidently still enjoyed and cared about what they were doing. The quality of the show more or less remained, regardless of the whether the fans felt betrayed by this new direction. The ripped-from-the-headlines storylines were a nice addition to the show, the topics blended seamlessly(well some more than others) into the show like covering the US involvement in Nicaragua with returning guest star G Gordon Liddy etc. If that episode had Crockett dressed in his classic pastel attire and driving his Daytona it would be held as a high point in the series. I think that justifies S3's existence alone.

The end of S3 felt like a natural stopping point. I imagine it would've been obvious to everyone in the cast and crew that the show wasn't going anywhere but down from then on, so they could've pre-emptively saved it from itself. The writing was on the wall. They could've done a 2 part finale in Ireland or Japan, or wherever they planned before it was scrapped and the show would be remembered as a pretty much flawless series.

All the cast could've merrily went off and did their own thing without being dragged down into the sinking ship. It's easy for us forget how shockingly bad S4 is because we''ve accepted it but at the time it must've been unfathomable.

I have to say that even though I was young and that my critical judgement was different, I never thought that Miami Vice was "bad" or had "gone bad" in real time at the time, even with S4.  I noticed differences on a surface level (Sonny's hair, new Ferrari etc.) but anything deeper and I would have to take time to actually compare one season to another.  I simply had no need to do that at the time because a) there was no motivation to and b) there was no means for me to do so.  I enjoyed some eps more than others, sure, but that was the story with every other show I watched.  The point is the big and small flaws people see now were not as obvious to a casual fan at the time.  Back then, to me at least, the show was just continuing on and changing at times just like other long-running shows did.

[Mr. Calderon]

ill repeat it again....i had good memories from the 80´s....but i hated the season 2 when i watched in dvd. Maybe 3 episodes i like....buses, sons and lovers, payback. s2 is a season where they did something original but in few scenes but the rest of the episode was terrible. The prodigal son i feel like if someone gave cart blanche to make a real true mtv episode, the episode in my humble opinion makes me feel im watching mtv for hours. Its the most videoclipesque episode i think.  Season 1 is superb but it has some episodes that when i watch it today i think its cheesy or weak. Season 3 is good. S4, I really love the caitlyin arch. Its hard to say when MV jumped to the sharks. When the first archetype of south american dictator appeared? when tubbs used suits made of curtain fabric? When tubbs used a beard? When Jan Hammer left? When hired James Brown? When they did the Burnett Trilogy ( i hated that by the way!) ? When El Gato appeared? When helena bonham carter acted as crocketts girlfriend (how can set this lady as crockett girl, ugly as hell?)? When they repeat actors?

Edited February 26, 2019 by Mr. Calderon

[Mvice8489]

I loved seasons one and two.  Three was pretty good.  Four and five were bad

[Robbie C.]

I like the Burnett arc quite a bit, but to me that has more to do with it being an extended meditation on how Burnett is actually more "real" in some ways than Crockett. But I also think I take Vice on a fairly deep level. Caitlin was Crockett's last grasp at being grounded in his own identity, and when that was ripped away all he had left was Burnett. Might not have been what the creative team intended, but that's how it always struck me. Vice grew and matured, but it did so without a single creative hand at the helm. Sanders talks about this in his book about Vice (which is outstanding in my view...a book done by a real Vice fan who also appreciates television, Miami, and the '80s). I don't know that it ever "went bad" per se, but I think there was a point when it was time to wrap and move on. All shows have this: the good ones know when it's time. The bad ones carry on past their "sell by" date.  

[Mr. Calderon]

what about a vice channel on you tube about deep thoughts about vice? opps...its getting off topic

[Robbie C.]

But that's kind of the point. The series was starting to wander. After Caitlin and Burnett, there wasn't much left to do with Sonny, really. Stan was half a character without Larry, they never really had much interest in developing Trudy, Gina was kind of a dead end, and both Rico and Castillo had been more or less 'ended' in terms of their unresolved issues (Valerie for Rico and I think EJO had gotten all he could out of Castillo and was ready to try something else). Others have commented on DJ's wanting to try something different, but I don't think he was the only one. No, the fifth season was really Vice's time. And it managed to go out on its own terms. Not bad for a show quite a few people wanted to dismiss as all flash and no substance, don't you think?

[Rattlehead]

I think it ended at the right time. It seems like the show had been exhausted of ideas and that the cast (mainly DJ and EJO) wanted to move on. In contrast to others on here, I feel seasons 4 and 5 weren't that bad. I wish the finale was better.

[Campion]

Miami Vice should have stopped after Season 4 (with perhaps a movie to tie up the Burnett arc). However, it started off a steep cliff with the Caitlyn Davies story line. Prior to that--other than Missing Hours--4th Season had some good episodes. Different, maybe, but not outright bad. Death and the Lady, Child's Play, and God's Work were all excellent IMO, among the best the series had to offer. But that's sort of where it ended. While there were a few good episodes during the balance of season 4 and--perhaps--one or two okay episodes in the 5th season, Vice never came even close to its previous heights. 

The show felt like it lost its passion, both literally and figuratively. How many steamy romances did Crockett have in the first three seasons? How many women did Tubbs bed? That all but disappeared in season 4. I don't think Tubbs kissed a girl while he had his beard and Crockett never fell in love with a wrong girl or bad influence again (how many times did that happen in season 2?). All that sex stuff was as much a part of Vice during the first three seasons as cocaine and fast cars. It also felt like they took the Miami out of Miami Vice. I recently re watched Definitely Miami. The sand dunes, the beach, the Rickenbacker causeway were all great wide-open on-location shots that made the episode feel big. Vice became claustrophobic in the 4th season, probably--again--a budget issue.

The Big Thaw, Missing Hours, and Cows of October rightfully get criticized for their ridiculous stories and poor execution. But you can also blame Vote of Confidence, Hell Hath No Fury, and a Bullet for Crockett for being downright boring. Plus, as much as I think Contempt of Court is a decent episode, it made for a horribly boring season premiere. Vice needed to start with a bang in the fourth season, and that didn't happen. 

At the time, I remember thinking the time slot change and Johnson's high salary contributed to a drop in budget & resources. However, I think Miami Vice was also a victim of its success. Vice wasn't just a TV show--it was a phenomena, a fad, a part of pop culture. Fads not only end, the public often turns on them. Disco was really cool at one point, but it became the butt of jokes. Sometimes what is super cool one week becomes super lame the next. I think that was true of Vice, to an extent. That's why I'm glad Mann made that 2006 movie. I know a lot of people hate it, but I was really worried that Hollywood would make a joke Vice movie (like they did with 21 Jump Street, Chips, Starsky & Hutch, etc.). At least we were spared a parody. 

[Vicefan7777]

4 hours ago, summer84 said:

Miami Vice couldn't compete with Dallas, when it was placed on the same time slot in S3. Also the season ended on a 22 rating, which is not bad. The constant changes did have an impact on the show. 

An article, that gives some insight: 

Season 4: Miami Vice must prove it self again. 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1987-09-25-8703150851-story.html

I completely agree with you Summer84.  I was a fan of both shows.  The first two seasons I would watch Miami Vice then switch channels to enjoy Dallas. When NBC made the fatal error to compete head to head with Dallas that put me in a tough position. Trying to switch back and forth and watch both at the same time was frustrating. So I ended up watching Dallas first and during the rerun season watching Miami Vice. I also agree that Dick Wolf should have kept going with what had been so successful in the first two seasons.  I did not like the darker colors and stories.  But as a fan of the show I continued watching and enjoying.  I still remember seeing Freefall and was sad the end of an era had come.  Did I want the show to continue for a few more seasons?  Absolutely!!

[Vincent Hanna]

Season 4 and 5 are like the TV equivalent of Sean Connery in You Only Live Twice, where he's visibly bored and has that look of disdain. In Miami Vice's case, it's not just the lead actor but the whole cast and crew, It's depressing to see your favourite show end up like that man.  It should have ended before that was allowed to happen.

 

[Miller Hailiffe]

Season 3 it should have ended, there are greats in 4 and 5 but you can just tell they were desperate to keep the audience

I absolutely hated the amnesia episodes and I pray that vin diesel doesn't revive vice

[RedDragon86]

15 hours ago, Mr. Calderon said:

ill repeat it again....i had good memories from the 80´s....but i hated the season 2 when i watched in dvd. Maybe 3 episodes i like....buses, sons and lovers, payback. s2 is a season where they did something original but in few scenes but the rest of the episode was terrible. The prodigal son i feel like if someone gave cart blanche to make a real true mtv episode, the episode in my humble opinion makes me feel im watching mtv for hours. Its the most videoclipesque episode i think.  Season 1 is superb but it has some episodes that when i watch it today i think its cheesy or weak. Season 3 is good. S4, I really love the caitlyin arch. Its hard to say when MV jumped to the sharks. When the first archetype of south american dictator appeared? when tubbs used suits made of curtain fabric? When tubbs used a beard? When Jan Hammer left? When hired James Brown? When they did the Burnett Trilogy ( i hated that by the way!) ? When El Gato appeared? When helena bonham carter acted as crocketts girlfriend (how can set this lady as crockett girl, ugly as hell?)? When they repeat actors?

Season 2 is superb, there are so many great episodes in 2. 

[RedDragon86]

Does anyone know if John Nicolella was considered for the executive producers job? he should have been the natural option instead of Wolf.

[Robbie C.]

I've never seen it mentioned. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, though. Wolf's weak spot to me has always been characters, and that's what Vice was built on once you get past the glitz.