When Should Vice Have Stopped?

[Sea-light]

Freefall was the end, but many stotylines left open. This is what I don't like.

[Robbie C.]

58 minutes ago, Sea-light said:

Freefall was the end, but many stotylines left open. This is what I don't like.

Agreed. That was why I mentioned The Shield earlier. They closed EVERY outstanding plot line. That's actually pretty impressive when you consider the show ran for seven seasons and had many complex plots.

[Sea-light]

11 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Agreed. That was why I mentioned The Shield earlier. They closed EVERY outstanding plot line. That's actually pretty impressive when you consider the show ran for seven seasons and had many complex plots.

And I wonder, why MV 2005 didn't continue anything, and who knows, will new MV do this or not. And will it be done at all. 

[RedDragon86]

On 2/25/2019 at 8:14 AM, Bren10 said:

I too like season 3 and have often defended it.  Does that mean Down For The Count should've been the series finale or something totally different depicting Zito's exit?  You make a good point about the original staff.  Maybe C & T shouldn't have been made to quit at all and just gone into the sunset fighting crime because it's all they know how to do.

S3 is a solid season but its missing the style, the writing is good and the episodes are sensible, I don't really like S4 because it isn't consistent, its either too ridiculous, boring or unbelievable, Sonny getting married for a start was so out of character, and the way Marty gave a speech on the chair in the department, congratulating Sonny and giving him honeymoon tickets was so not his style, they forced changing on characters that just wasn't them.

With Sonny getting married and there was a little party in OCB, Castillo would have walked over shook his hand and said best of luck, then we see him on his way out to a meeting or something. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

I don't agree regarding Castillo in S4. Don't forget EJO kept pretty tight control over Castillo and his character development. I think he acted the way he did because he sensed this was Sonny's last chance in many ways, and he'd also pretty much wrapped up his own personal life by that time. And Sonny getting married was, to me, totally IN character. He aways had a deep need (beyond his Burnett cover) for a normal life, or what he thought was a normal life. Caitlin offered him that, and she came from a part of life that was almost as crazy as his. After all, this is the Sonny who almost got played in "Definitely Miami" by another woman he thought needed help. Except this time the need was real.

[RedDragon86]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I don't agree regarding Castillo in S4. Don't forget EJO kept pretty tight control over Castillo and his character development. I think he acted the way he did because he sensed this was Sonny's last chance in many ways, and he'd also pretty much wrapped up his own personal life by that time. And Sonny getting married was, to me, totally IN character. He aways had a deep need (beyond his Burnett cover) for a normal life, or what he thought was a normal life. Caitlin offered him that, and she came from a part of life that was almost as crazy as his. After all, this is the Sonny who almost got played in "Definitely Miami" by another woman he thought needed help. Except this time the need was real.

You have made very good points but it didn't look right with Marty standing on a chair giving a speech like that. 

Can you imagine him doing this lets say in season 2 if Sonny got married? I just can't see it.

Edited February 28, 2019 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

Sure, but that's Season 2. Vice was usually fairly good at showing characters mature and change. Character development was more than you see these days in most cases. While Season 2 Castillo might not do it, Season 4 Castillo having gone through what he'd gone through certainly could do such a thing.

[alleycat]

I think also they should have ended with season 2 or 3 . It was coming to a climax with the Burnett trilogy which I enjoyed a lot but after that it became long in the tooth.i have heard rumours of Miami Vice coming back with Vin Diesel . I hope not why mess and I am being nice saying that to a very good series . Leave it alone very good memories and music .

[WizardOfOz]

On 2/25/2019 at 5:36 PM, Bren10 said:

It seems like many people don't know what they want.  Some say the show effectively ended at the onset of season 3.  Other people all but disown seasons 4 and 5.  Others say the show appropriately ended when the 80s ended.  PMT said he wanted it to be like Bonanza and go on and on, as do many fans. Still others pine for a reunion picking up with the original characters.  All shows have to end though, so my question is when do you think the show truly should have ended and should the events of Freefall be what ended it?

"Others say the show appropriately ended when the 80s ended."  Yeah, that's me.

I didn't mind storylines being left open or the decline in originality after the first few seasons.  If it had ended with Seasons 2 or 3 I would have really had something to complain about when there was still scope for further exploration.  It ended when the 80s did, which was good.  It was an 80s phenomenon and was not going to adjust well to the 90s.

I wouldn't mind a reunion.  I'm far more open to that idea than another remake.

[summer84]

Another interesting article/interview with Michael Mann with a short segment from 1987, where he comments on the obvious content S4 consisted of. They certainly managed to create some over the top (some of which were non Vice related storylines) that were rather making fun of the show. 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-11-17-ca-22158-story.html

"That said, Mann grudgingly admits there has been a change in the colors of "Miami Vice" this season; it has lightened up again from the dark, mysterious nighttime dream-world of "big money and white cars" of last year. But, he insists, the look has always reflected the story.

Last year was very topical stories; it (the dark colors) made sense," Mann says. "This year, we sort of feel like doing a more outrageous mix of stories, wilder wild stories and heavier heavy stories and more outrageous outrageous stories. Wilder, funnier--that's 'Vice." 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by summer84
added quotation mark

[vicegirl85]

Interesting article!  I don't remember seeing it before.

[Matt5]

12 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

Interesting article!  I don't remember seeing it before.

Yes nor me - a great piece.

[Glades]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb summer84:

Another interesting article/interview with Michael Mann with a short segment from 1987, where he comments on the obvious content S4 consisted of. They certainly managed to create some over the top (some of which were non Vice related storylines) that were rather making fun of the show. 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-11-17-ca-22158-story.html

"That said, Mann grudgingly admits there has been a change in the colors of "Miami Vice" this season; it has lightened up again from the dark, mysterious nighttime dream-world of "big money and white cars" of last year. But, he insists, the look has always reflected the story.

Last year was very topical stories; it (the dark colors) made sense," Mann says. "This year, we sort of feel like doing a more outrageous mix of stories, wilder wild stories and heavier heavy stories and more outrageous outrageous stories. Wilder, funnier--that's 'Vice."  

 

 

 

Unfortunately I can't read the link in Europe. I would be happy if someone could copy the central statements. I find the quotation from Mann very interesting! Or is that already the essential statement?

 

[summer84]

1 hour ago, Glades said:

 

Unfortunately I can't read the link in Europe. I would be happy if someone could copy the central statements. I find the quotation from Mann very interesting! Or is that already the essential statement?

 

Here is the full article

This Man's Got a 'Vice' He Can Live With : 'Style Is a Dirty Word,' Producer Michael Mann Says

DIANE HAITHMAN

Times Staff Writer

 

NOVEMBER 17, 1987

Three years after being hailed as the seminal force behind a revolution in the way television looks and sounds, Michael Mann dismisses the acclaim with an impatient wave of his bagel.

The executive producer of "Miami Vice" and another NBC police series, "Crime Story," is happily breakfasting in the Formica splendor of Canter's Fairfax deli ("I've been in these booths writing episodes sometimes through three shifts of waitresses--14, 16 hours," he says fondly).

He doesn't want to talk about how the fresh look and sound of "Miami Vice" changed television when it debuted in 1984. He doesn't want to talk about pastels anymore. He doesn't want to talk about "Vice's" landmark introduction of current pop songs as TV background music, about Don Johnson's lack of socks or about high-tech interiors or sun-drenched exteriors or slow-motion homicide or anything that has to do with style .

" Style is a dirty word," announces the producer who has been linked with the term so many times it's beginning to sound like part of his name.

"Miami Vice" was created by Anthony Yerkovich, who left the series only weeks after its debut. "Crime Story" was also created by others: Los Angeles-based producer Gus Reininger and Chuck Adamson, a former Chicago undercover cop.

Yet--without using the dreaded S word--there is something arresting about the look, sound and subject matter of both series that brands them uniquely Michael Mann.

Mann--who began his career in advertising and documentary film making in Europe, then wrote for television police dramas such as "Police Story"--admits that he leaves a personal stamp on his work. But he resents being crowned the king of style by the press.

"I have an intense desire to do ugly, evendouble-ugly stuff so people will stop asking me about style," he says, only half-jokingly.

Mann, 44, contends that although he has become most famous for his television successes, he does not consider them to be part of his true artistic career because they are collaborative efforts.

His career , he says, consists of his movies, which he wrote, directed and edited: 1979's "Jericho Mile," a made-for-TV movie released theatrically in Europe, the brooding story of a Folsom State Prison lifer obsessed with running the fastest mile; "Thief" (1981), featuring James Caan as a police officer caught between corrupt cops and the mob; "The Keep" (1983), a critically panned effort about a group of Nazi officers who allow evil incarnate in the form of a 7-foot humanoid to escape from a medieval fortress, and "Manhunter" (1986), the study of a detective trying to predict the behavior of a psychopathic killer through interviewing another killer now behind bars in a hospital for the criminally insane.

"I've written, directed and edited four movies, and that's it--that's what I do," Mann insists. "The other stuff, like 'Vice' and 'Crime Story,' may have more notoriety with the public, but that's not what I do. I don't author those. My name is not on them, and I wouldn't take credit away from the people who do.

"And frankly," Mann adds, "I wouldn't put my name on some of them, as a director. I am, I think, appropriately vain about that. It has to conform to my standards."

Mann says his TV success has had an unwelcome effect on his film career.

"There were reviews of 'Manhunter' that were basically reviews of the second season of 'Miami Vice,' " he says. "But you can't go around worrying about that kind of stuff or you ought to go off and be an anonymous podiatrist someplace. You don't belong in this business."

Mann does worry about that kind of stuff, though. He worries that critics who have lavished praise on "Miami Vice" or "Crime Story" have never really understood the artistry behind the look (he winces at one reviewer's evaluation of "Vice" as "dressy violence and sensuous mayhem").

"To me, there's film form and there's film content, and one complements the other," he says. "If it (the style) is not doing something about telling stories, then it's gratuitous. Form degenerates into style when there is nothing for it to interact with."

That inevitably happens now and then in the grind of series television, Mann adds. "With 'Miami Vice,' we're going out there every week trying to make a little movie in seven days," he says. "It's extremely dumb, but we keep trying to pull it off. You can't hit one out of the ballpark every week."

Mann's trademark subject matter--vice in Miami, desperation behind prison bars, assorted corruption in Vegas--often involves enough graphic violence to make even the hardiest network program-practices executive cringe. Mann explains that he likes to do stories set in the lunatic fringe of society, and it's a violent place.

"(Normal) people aren't very interesting," he says. "When I was in sophomore lit, I much preferred reading Hemingway to some boring 19th-Century nationalist novel. I was not a fan of Henry James' thicker books, and I'm not now."

As with other stylistic elements, Mann believes violence should not be gratuitous. "It has to be part of the story or else it's like pornography," he says. "And it's--I don't know--it's boring."

Mann says the original multicolored pastels of "Miami Vice" were inspired by two things: one, a view of Miami's Art Deco South Beach area under the hot white sun on a vacation some 10 years ago, and two, playing with the color chips at a paint store one long-ago day when his wife was buying some paint.

"I was playing around with them and I realized: three colors become thematic, two colors don't," he relates. "Three colors, you can actually start telling a chromatic story. You can create a mood with three colors."

That said, Mann grudgingly admits there has been a change in the colors of "Miami Vice" this season; it has lightened up again from the dark, mysterious nighttime dream-world of "big money and white cars" of last year. But, he insists, the look has always reflected the story.

"Last year was very topical stories; it (the dark colors) made sense," Mann says. "This year, we sort of feel like doing a more outrageous mix of stories, wilder wild stories and heavier heavy stories and more outrageous outrageous stories. Wilder, funnier--that's 'Vice.' "

In the case of "Crime Story," which moved from Chicago to Las Vegas for the last six episodes of last season and has a new set of staff writers this season, Mann admits that he and his team played freely with stylistic elements of the late '50s and early '60s to create a "heightened reality" somewhere between history and fantasy--again, he says, to serve the story.

"History is a very messy thing--we fixed it up," Mann says. "History is out of sync, so we adjusted it. It ('Crime Story') is a twilight zone where people believe that their dreams can come true. It's not nostalgia; nostalgia would be trying to re-create what it was like back then. I was living then, and it was boring."

Although Mann is eager to devote himself exclusively to directing feature films someday, and despite his protest that TV can sometimes allow style to overwhelm substance, he still can't quite break his addiction to it. His position as executive producer of the two NBC series could easily permit him to remain detached from the production details, yet something keeps pulling him onto the set.

"I've turned down important movies to keep on working with 'Crime Story,' " Mann acknowledges. "I'm addicted to the speed of it; I'm a speed freak when it comes to telling these stories, jamming it all into seven days.

"It's the excitement, the speed, and telling lots of stories. It's 'Why don't we do a story about. . .?' Then, 'Yeah--let's do it.' Boom."

Copyright © 2019, Los Angeles Times

Edited June 20, 2019 by summer84

[Glades]

Thank you very much @summer84

[summer84]

1 hour ago, Glades said:

Thank you very much @summer84

You're welcome. 

[Matt5]

3 hours ago, summer84 said:

Here is the full article

This Man's Got a 'Vice' He Can Live With : 'Style Is a Dirty Word,' Producer Michael Mann Says

DIANE HAITHMAN

Times Staff Writer

 

NOVEMBER 17, 1987

Three years after being hailed as the seminal force behind a revolution in the way television looks and sounds, Michael Mann dismisses the acclaim with an impatient wave of his bagel.

The executive producer of "Miami Vice" and another NBC police series, "Crime Story," is happily breakfasting in the Formica splendor of Canter's Fairfax deli ("I've been in these booths writing episodes sometimes through three shifts of waitresses--14, 16 hours," he says fondly).

He doesn't want to talk about how the fresh look and sound of "Miami Vice" changed television when it debuted in 1984. He doesn't want to talk about pastels anymore. He doesn't want to talk about "Vice's" landmark introduction of current pop songs as TV background music, about Don Johnson's lack of socks or about high-tech interiors or sun-drenched exteriors or slow-motion homicide or anything that has to do with style .

" Style is a dirty word," announces the producer who has been linked with the term so many times it's beginning to sound like part of his name.

"Miami Vice" was created by Anthony Yerkovich, who left the series only weeks after its debut. "Crime Story" was also created by others: Los Angeles-based producer Gus Reininger and Chuck Adamson, a former Chicago undercover cop.

Yet--without using the dreaded S word--there is something arresting about the look, sound and subject matter of both series that brands them uniquely Michael Mann.

Mann--who began his career in advertising and documentary film making in Europe, then wrote for television police dramas such as "Police Story"--admits that he leaves a personal stamp on his work. But he resents being crowned the king of style by the press.

"I have an intense desire to do ugly, evendouble-ugly stuff so people will stop asking me about style," he says, only half-jokingly.

Mann, 44, contends that although he has become most famous for his television successes, he does not consider them to be part of his true artistic career because they are collaborative efforts.

His career , he says, consists of his movies, which he wrote, directed and edited: 1979's "Jericho Mile," a made-for-TV movie released theatrically in Europe, the brooding story of a Folsom State Prison lifer obsessed with running the fastest mile; "Thief" (1981), featuring James Caan as a police officer caught between corrupt cops and the mob; "The Keep" (1983), a critically panned effort about a group of Nazi officers who allow evil incarnate in the form of a 7-foot humanoid to escape from a medieval fortress, and "Manhunter" (1986), the study of a detective trying to predict the behavior of a psychopathic killer through interviewing another killer now behind bars in a hospital for the criminally insane.

"I've written, directed and edited four movies, and that's it--that's what I do," Mann insists. "The other stuff, like 'Vice' and 'Crime Story,' may have more notoriety with the public, but that's not what I do. I don't author those. My name is not on them, and I wouldn't take credit away from the people who do.

"And frankly," Mann adds, "I wouldn't put my name on some of them, as a director. I am, I think, appropriately vain about that. It has to conform to my standards."

Mann says his TV success has had an unwelcome effect on his film career.

"There were reviews of 'Manhunter' that were basically reviews of the second season of 'Miami Vice,' " he says. "But you can't go around worrying about that kind of stuff or you ought to go off and be an anonymous podiatrist someplace. You don't belong in this business."

Mann does worry about that kind of stuff, though. He worries that critics who have lavished praise on "Miami Vice" or "Crime Story" have never really understood the artistry behind the look (he winces at one reviewer's evaluation of "Vice" as "dressy violence and sensuous mayhem").

"To me, there's film form and there's film content, and one complements the other," he says. "If it (the style) is not doing something about telling stories, then it's gratuitous. Form degenerates into style when there is nothing for it to interact with."

That inevitably happens now and then in the grind of series television, Mann adds. "With 'Miami Vice,' we're going out there every week trying to make a little movie in seven days," he says. "It's extremely dumb, but we keep trying to pull it off. You can't hit one out of the ballpark every week."

Mann's trademark subject matter--vice in Miami, desperation behind prison bars, assorted corruption in Vegas--often involves enough graphic violence to make even the hardiest network program-practices executive cringe. Mann explains that he likes to do stories set in the lunatic fringe of society, and it's a violent place.

"(Normal) people aren't very interesting," he says. "When I was in sophomore lit, I much preferred reading Hemingway to some boring 19th-Century nationalist novel. I was not a fan of Henry James' thicker books, and I'm not now."

As with other stylistic elements, Mann believes violence should not be gratuitous. "It has to be part of the story or else it's like pornography," he says. "And it's--I don't know--it's boring."

Mann says the original multicolored pastels of "Miami Vice" were inspired by two things: one, a view of Miami's Art Deco South Beach area under the hot white sun on a vacation some 10 years ago, and two, playing with the color chips at a paint store one long-ago day when his wife was buying some paint.

"I was playing around with them and I realized: three colors become thematic, two colors don't," he relates. "Three colors, you can actually start telling a chromatic story. You can create a mood with three colors."

That said, Mann grudgingly admits there has been a change in the colors of "Miami Vice" this season; it has lightened up again from the dark, mysterious nighttime dream-world of "big money and white cars" of last year. But, he insists, the look has always reflected the story.

"Last year was very topical stories; it (the dark colors) made sense," Mann says. "This year, we sort of feel like doing a more outrageous mix of stories, wilder wild stories and heavier heavy stories and more outrageous outrageous stories. Wilder, funnier--that's 'Vice.' "

In the case of "Crime Story," which moved from Chicago to Las Vegas for the last six episodes of last season and has a new set of staff writers this season, Mann admits that he and his team played freely with stylistic elements of the late '50s and early '60s to create a "heightened reality" somewhere between history and fantasy--again, he says, to serve the story.

"History is a very messy thing--we fixed it up," Mann says. "History is out of sync, so we adjusted it. It ('Crime Story') is a twilight zone where people believe that their dreams can come true. It's not nostalgia; nostalgia would be trying to re-create what it was like back then. I was living then, and it was boring."

Although Mann is eager to devote himself exclusively to directing feature films someday, and despite his protest that TV can sometimes allow style to overwhelm substance, he still can't quite break his addiction to it. His position as executive producer of the two NBC series could easily permit him to remain detached from the production details, yet something keeps pulling him onto the set.

"I've turned down important movies to keep on working with 'Crime Story,' " Mann acknowledges. "I'm addicted to the speed of it; I'm a speed freak when it comes to telling these stories, jamming it all into seven days.

"It's the excitement, the speed, and telling lots of stories. It's 'Why don't we do a story about. . .?' Then, 'Yeah--let's do it.' Boom."

Copyright © 2019, Los Angeles Times

Love this - shows what a perfectionist Mann was, which isn’t always a good thing. He has, and even back then, always taken himself very seriously.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Matt5