What are your guys thoughts on Season 4/5?

[Assasinge]

Someone posted a question on the Vice subreddit asking if Season 5 was really that bad and seeing as I myself have gotten around to rewatching Season 4, what are your guys thoughts on it in comparison to the previous seasons? I'll reveal mine after a few thoughts are posted.

[Robbie C.]

I like both season 4 and season 5 (should be obvious given some of my favorite episodes are in the Caitlin and Burnett story arcs). We really get to see the impact constant undercover life has on Crockett, and the idea that he might just be a window into that life is more fully developed. There are some weak episodes in both seasons, but the same can be said for any season of Vice if we're honest. I also think the seasons reflect the darker turn American popular culture was taking by this time. The glitz of the '80s were starting to fade, and the drug trade was also getting less glamorous (at least in popular imagination). I do wish they had used the supporting cast better, because there were some episodes that would have benefitted from wider involvement. Of course, everyone seemed to know season five was the last one, so there's that to consider when seeing how some episodes played out in terms of acting.

[Kladdagh]

I like season 4 BUT, I have a problem with season 5 ... the main problem for me is the lack of presence of Sonny ... we can fell there was a problem on this season ... shame ...

[mjcmmv]

Season 4 and 5 had a lot of redeeming factors. Yes, there were some awful episodes, for sure. (Cows of October, The Big Thaw, Leap of Faith to name a few) But I also liked the Burnett Arc. And I thought seeing Sonny and Tubb's burnout authentic and believable. I agree with Robbie that the glitz of the '80s had worn thin and stories about the drug trade had lost its appeal. I also was disappointed they didn't use the female cast enough. I think Mann would have done things differently if he was still involved. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by mjcmmv

[RedDragon86]

1 to 3 are great, while 4 is not consistent, it starts off very sensibly with a political mob episode, then we have all of these silly episodes, if only they didn't go down that road, the goofy episode tarnish the beginning of a season that is actually decent, the Cailtin story was very good and interesting, the Yakuza episode, Baseballs of Death, Indian Wars , Death of the lady,  Gods Work etc and later on the Burnett Arc, really good episodes. If only they started with these and built on them with the same sort of material, and keeping it solid and professional.

Season 5, I like this season, it sort of has a season 1 feel to it, and I like a lot of the episodes, I think its perceived in a harsh, and maybe lazy way by critics.

[Assasinge]

Kinda interesting to see people here like the Burnett arc and all, personally I felt it was unnecessary and it bored me to no end. I just don't think it was meant for a show like Miami Vice, it's overly soap opera drama and if they were going to do something like show how Crockett's undercover life impacts him, it should have been done in 2 parts like they do for characters like Castillo in The Golden Triangle and such. Caitlin on the other hand was okay, not my personal favorite but I didn't entirely mind it. Although it was pretty clear from all this stuff, apart from the silly episodes we don't talk about that the show was running out of steam and coming to a close for sure.

 

Hm, you know it's been sometime since I saw Season 5 and I don't remember Crockett's presence diminishing, but you're probably right I'll have to take a spin at it again.

[Rattlehead]

I felt they were decent seasons. The issue with season 4 is that it starts off with some rather weak episodes. I avoided a lot of season 5 due to the negative reception yet upon watching the episodes I skipped, I liked most of them! The Burnett trilogy was epic.

[James]

Season 4 is ok-ish. It starts off weak with Law & Order Miami. But I like the Caitlin Davis story-arc which lead us into the Burnett-arc. I also like Death and the Lady, and Badge of Dishonor. The rest is forgettable and boring IMO. 

Season 5 however, after the Burnett-arc, I find the rest boring. Can barely sit through the episodes. I like the cut episode World of Trouble which closes the Lombard story. Jack of All Trades is a fun episode. But it's just meh. You could tell they were all over it and the show was getting cancelled by the whole mood of the season. 

[Bren10]

I find season 4 to be very bipolar. The good eps are really good (Death & The Lady, Child's Play) and the bad are seriously bad ( the unholy S4 trilogy-Big Thaw, Missing Hours, Cows of October). There are good things in season 5 but it suffers from Crockett's absence. It also suffers at times for lack of original music, leaving only the plot and dialog to carry it and that was never Miami Vice's strongest suit. How you feel about S5 will also be affected by your stance on the Burnett arc. As you know many people don't buy it and I understand that. I find that it helps if you look at that story more from a metaphorical and spiritual perspective as opposed to a strictly logical and concrete one, which it simply won't stand up to. What's good though is that with Heart of Night, World of Trouble, Too Much, Too Late and S4's Blood and Roses, the series goes about tying up loose ends which is very satisfying. There is an overall feeling that the party is ending. How you feel about season 5 will also of course be colored by how you feel about Freefall, which is the final taste left in your mouth, so to speak. I think it could have been done better and differently and it does feel a little rushed. I do, however, enjoy the bookending of the series with the chase/shootout at the dock with the plane. Little things like that tell me that someone was still paying attention. Season 4 (and 3, which I know isn't being discussed) also suffer from the lack of a grandiose season opener. Season 5 at least has the advantage of a cliffhanger continuation. Overall I think one really good season could be made by combining all the good episodes of seasons 4 and 5.

[Robbie C.]

Crockett's absence in S5 is actually logical if you consider what a department would have done to someone who went through the Burnett thing. What I think made it hard is the way the show directly leaned on Crockett in S4 and to a degree S3. Had they taken the time to develop characters more consistently S5 wouldn't have seemed so unusual. They did tie up loose ends fairly well considering, but that would always be hard with Vice because of its combined serial/episodic nature. The Shield remains the best example of this I've ever seen, but it had the same person at the helm the entire time and some of the tightest writing that's ever existed in TV as far as I'm concerned.

[Bren10]

The problem for me though Robbie is that even when they did try to develop characters at the expense of DJ's screentime, the show still suffered. Even as far back as Made For Each Other and Golden Triangle, which I know people absolutely LOVE but has a major weakness imo by turning Crockett (and Tubbs) into a clueless bystander halfway though. I know that ep was necessary for the sake of getting to know Castillo and that's fine, but too many episodes like that and the show falters. At the end of the day DJ was the star of the show and I think the show needed him. It wan't like MASH or Star Trek (any iteration you want) where someone else could carry the load, at least not in my opinion. 

[Robbie C.]

3 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

The problem for me though Robbie is that even when they did try to develop characters at the expense of DJ's screentime, the show still suffered. Even as far back as Made For Each Other and Golden Triangle, which I know people absolutely LOVE but has a major weakness imo by turning Crockett (and Tubbs) into a clueless bystander halfway though. I know that ep was necessary for the sake of getting to know Castillo and that's fine, but too many episodes like that and the show falters. At the end of the day DJ was the star of the show and I think the show needed him. It wan't like MASH or Star Trek (any iteration you want) where someone else could carry the load, at least not in my opinion. 

Sure, but there was no real consistency to those development efforts. The show conditioned us early on to look to Crockett, and once that happens it's hard to shift away from. Star Trek was ensemble to a large degree, in no small part because the writing made it that way and the the characters were consistent from the start. Vice had Crockett and Tubbs, and Tubbs showed you could do some good episodes without focusing totally on Crockett. The trick for developing other characters (which the writers missed) is to remove the others from the action or make them strong, active supports, not turning them into clueless bystanders. And you need to do it early and somewhat regularly. Vice hurt itself in that regard by focusing on DJ to the almost total exclusion of everyone else. He was the star because they made him that way. Once that happens it's hard to back away from it unless you have really good writers. Vice, sadly, did not...at least not consistently.

[Bren10]

He was also the star because of his charisma and ability. So much so that he overshadowed others and the show had to push him. Remember we're talking about a guy that started a fashion craze in the real world. I know they wrote him that way but it could have just as easily failed or worked to a lesser degree. I'm reminded of Johnny Depp on 21 Jumpstreet. Yes the rest of the cast was good but without him there the show was clearly missing something. Ironically, the original Battlestar Galactica had such an issue. Richard Hatch was cast as the lead but Dirk Benedict was so charismatic and got over so big that he was made into much of the focus of that show. My point is you can be written well for all day but you have to be able to pull it off and make yourself the star too. Some do, some don't, some are just adequate and some transcend it. Imo DJ is in the latter group, therefore the show had to use him dominantly if they were smart.

[Assasinge]

I actually agree with the fact that Crockett and Tubbs being turned into clueless bystanders wasn't really the way to go, and rather strange at that but I still feel it's better done in regards to character development than how they portrayed the Burnett arc where he basically goes from being his own undercover identity as a drug dealer, to a hitman of some sort who also shoots Tubbs and the department somehow lets him off the hook which never made sense to me. 

[Robbie C.]

Sure, but it cost them long term. I get what you're saying, Bren, but that also makes it hard to bag on S5 for not featuring Crockett if DJ had already checked out. 

[Robbie C.]

2 minutes ago, Assasinge said:

I actually agree with the fact that Crockett and Tubbs being turned into clueless bystanders wasn't really the way to go, and rather strange at that but I still feel it's better done in regards to character development than how they portrayed the Burnett arc where he basically goes from being his own undercover identity as a drug dealer, to a hitman of some sort who also shoots Tubbs and the department somehow lets him off the hook which never made sense to me. 

Yeah, that was always an issue with me, too. They didn't allow enough space to show what might have happened in the aftermath. I don't know if that's because of poor writing or DJ just basically checking out on the series by that point, but it does hurt the entire flow.

[vicegirl85]

5 minutes ago, Assasinge said:

I actually agree with the fact that Crockett and Tubbs being turned into clueless bystanders wasn't really the way to go, and rather strange at that but I still feel it's better done in regards to character development than how they portrayed the Burnett arc where he basically goes from being his own undercover identity as a drug dealer, to a hitman of some sort who also shoots Tubbs and the department somehow lets him off the hook which never made sense to me. 

Yes, the character of Burnett from the "Burnett arc" for me did not really jive with the previous depiction of Sonny Burnett, undercover persona.  and I'm one who likes the Burnett arc and feel like the amnesia has a decent basis in reality due to Crockett's emotional devastation from Caitlin's death (for which he feels a lot of guilt over achieving the release of Hackman from Death Row) and the terrible secret he holds of taking his own vengeance on Hackman.  Because of those two things I feel he was primed for the total psychic disconnect from his true identity (already in a delicate balance due to the stresses of undercover work).  For him to ever be able to return to the vice squad requires a major piece of unbelievability.

Bren 10, I agree about DJ's "star power" within the show driving the direction of the show and increasing the focus on Crockett.  For whatever reason (and I agree he had great charisma and ability--although he'd also appeared in several unsuccessful pilots and forgettable movies), viewers responded to him in Miami Vice and to the character of Crockett.  If PMT or one of the others had elicited the same response from fans (including the fashion influence!) I'm sure those characters would have gotten more attention and focus.

[mjcmmv]

So, recently, I subscribed to Starz and they have the TV Miami Vice episodes available at any time of day. Needless to say, I'm in my glory. It's so funny because I have the DVD's but for some reason, it's just easier to zip right on to the network and pick the one I want. After all this discussion, I started with Blood and Roses, then Bullet, and Deliver Us From Evil. Today, I watched Hostile Takeover. It's been a while since I saw these and it was great without commercial interruption. The colors were vibrant and the music was just as great as I remembered. Plus, I get to see Crockett transform before my very eyes. Transform from someone in love to someone in mourning. And then, to a badass killer. Man! It's been a rollercoaster weekend! 

There's a lot to love in Season Four-at least for me. Lots of story lines, drama and character development. I'm happy it turned out the way it did!

Next week-Season 5!

Edited April 7, 2019 by mjcmmv

[vicegirl85]

On 4/5/2019 at 1:19 PM, mjcmmv said:

Season 4 and 5 had a lot of redeeming factors. Yes, there were some awful episodes, for sure. (Cows of October, The Big Thaw, Leap of Faith to name a few) But I also liked the Burnett Arc. And I thought seeing Sonny and Tubb's burnout authentic and believable. I agree with Robbie that the glitz of the '80s had worn thin and stories about the drug trade had lost its appeal. I also was disappointed they didn't use the female cast enough. I think Mann would have done things differently if he was still involved. 

I liked individual episodes from both seasons--more from S4, probably.  Child's Play was excellent; I thought Death and the Lady was very well-done.  I liked Blood and Roses quite a bit.    Missing Hours irritated me to no end (not sure why I have more hatred for that one than The Big Thaw, LOL) but I have to confess I have a soft spot for Cows of October :).  The Caitlin storyline--for me, the romance and wedding were too rushed to be believable for me (although acknowledging those who pointed out that time could be very flexible in MV, and perhaps more time passed than was apparent).  Otherwise the shows dealing with Caitlin's and Sonny's marriage were so-so.  I didn't have a problem with Sheena Easton's acting or really, even her character, but I wanted something to rekindle between Sonny and Gina.  No one could have satisfied me on that score, I'm afraid!  Beginning with Deliver Us From Evil through Redemption in Blood--for me this was a gripping storyline and for the most part well-done (unbelievable that Crockett could ever have returned to undercover police work, though).  To Have and To Hold--probably a weak episode overall but I did like the closure to Sonny's and Caroline's story and the fishing off the boat that Crockett and Tubbs did at the end.  World of Trouble was a good one and I liked the way they brought back Lombard.  Too Much, Too Late was disappointing overall, if only because poor Tubbs deserved someone better and more into him than Valerie ever was.  Freefall--I can't say I liked it, but it was an appropriate closure for the burnout that had obviously been going on for C&T for the past 2 seasons (at least).  I felt like it was almost an inevitable ending. 

The glitz of the 80s wearing thin and stories about the drug trade losing appeal... I don't know about that.  I think if the producers, directors, writers, and stars had really wanted to continue, there was plenty of gripping material left.  Maybe drug trafficking could have been de-emphasized and the focus turned to human trafficking, organized gambling, etc.  But I believe many of those associated with the show (not just DJ) were also feeling burnout and wanted to test their wings in other ventures while their MV credits were still bright and shiny.  MV shot through the mid-to-late 80s like a comet, and in a way it probably burned itself out.  

I also wish more had been done with the female cast.  Saundra Santiago had more episodes than Olivia Brown, but during S5, both of them are barely seen (it seems to me).  Not sure Mann would have done any differently in regard to the female cast, although he may have treated the show's direction and its ending somewhat differently. 

I don't really know Mann's other work (heresy I know!) but honestly from the start of S1, he featured episodes demonstrating how undercover work could destroy the officer's real life relationships; how the appeal of the undercover lifestyle could corrupt one's values, and how dealing with it day in and day out could even unhinge one's sanity.  Likewise, a theme I saw repeated from the earliest episodes was the conflict between law enforcement agencies at different levels.  How often did we see that the local team's work was wasted because the Feds wanted to use a criminal bigwig for some larger purpose?  This seems to me to at least fit in somewhat with how the show was actually handled.  Mann would probably have done it more stylishly and perhaps in a way that was more satisfying, but I don't know.

[Robbie C.]

I do wish they would have given Frank Military more to do. Granted he was young at the time, but his writing was good and he's shown with NCIS LA that he's very much in tune with the effect of undercover on people.

Mann's problem is he gets bored quickly (and he admits this). 2-3 years is about his max when it comes to attention span on a project. He's fantastic on visuals, but I haven't seen much to convince me he's really good with characters, and especially female characters. What the show needed was someone behind him to really chart a solid course and then see it through. Dick Wolf? No. He's a formula guy. They just never had the right secondary show runner in place to guide the characters while Mann did visuals.

[vicegirl85]

Definitely agree with all of your comment, Robbie C.!

[Bren10]

Collateral is a great Mann dual-character study. Thief is a great single one. The Insider is also excellent for this, to the point where the film is essentially split in half for the two main characters. Heat went into character so much that it had to be 3hrs long. That's what sets it apart from typical Lethal Weapon-esque action fare.  When it comes to character a lot of times Mann lets actions speak louder than words and current behavior inform a character's past as opposed to lots of conventional exposition. That doesn't mean that characterisation isn't there. He's an auteur and his direction is very different compared to others-read subtle. Again, he expects the audience to do some of the work. He doesn't spoon-feed. I will say his treatment of female characters is rather blah and conventional. I'm sure that's partly because he himself is a man (pun intended) so it's difficult for him to identify effectively with female characters. The other part of this is, as contemporary as his direction is, he's still part of the old-school in terms of relationships and he himself was raised on filmmaking where females were there to be saved or attained. It's difficult to shake that mentality especially since he is someone older than my own father (baby boom generation). Manhunter and Mohicans both also take the time to explore all angles of the conflict whereas a lot of directors simply wouldn't have bothered. We see and hear Mogwa's and Dollarhyde's motivations as well as more than one side of their personalities, something not commonly done with a film's antogonists. This gets lost because we take it for granted now, but Mann remains one of the great directors. Not perfect (who is?) but great nonetheless.

[Robbie C.]

The thing with these examples, though, is that someone else in most instances did the script. Mann has been very wise to keep his casting director around (Bonnie Timmerman maybe, I don't recall for sure). Casting was what made Heat, honestly, aside from his mastery of visuals.

[Bren10]

Sorry, I got to disagree on this. The characters' psychology is what made Heat. I remind you that an inferior version of Heat was made as L.A. Takedown in 1986 and the problems there weren't because the cast was bad (anyone would suffer next to Pacino and Deniro anyway) but because of time constraints and a tv budget, entire story elements had to be excised and left out, including character and relationship stuff. Mann had carte blanche on Heat though, and it shows. In anyone else's hands the film would have been a standard cops and robbers shoot em' up like Face Off or something. I would argue also, that the story of Heat would hold up even with lesser stars in the roles. But the mano y mano aspect was a strong focus, so Mann went big with casting. Public Enemies has a very similar structure to Heat and is a very fine film. Not as good as Heat, which I consider a modern-day classic, but still good.

[Robbie C.]

But his casting's normally handled by Bonnie Timmerman. Has been since Vice as I recall. I respect your opinion, but still think he's stronger on his own with images than with  casting. This isn't unusual with good producers or directors, actually. Look at Eastwood.