What are your guys thoughts on Season 4/5?

[Bren10]

Yes she's been there forever. But his visuals, which have always been excellent, are only one component of his overall direction which I think is truly what drives his projects, including those he doesn't even physically direct including Vice, Crime Story , Band of the Hand etc. 

[Campion]

Season 4 started off strong but went down hill fast... season 5 started off interesting and became a disaster of silliness and laziness. BUT...that's just my opinion. 

[Bren10]

20 minutes ago, Campion said:

Season 4 started off strong but went down hill fast... season 5 started off interesting and became a disaster of silliness and laziness. BUT...that's just my opinion. 

Interesting to hear you say that, Campion. Most would point at S4 as the culprit of silliness. Would you care to elaborate on S5? Btw, I have relatives in PA and I am a Pittsburgh Penguins fan.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Bren10

[miamijimf]

Not the best seasons but some interesting stories and episodes.  Better than anything on TV today.

[Campion]

2 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Interesting to hear you say that, Campion. Most would point at S4 as the culprit of silliness. Would you care to elaborate on S5? Btw, I have relatives in PA and I am a Pittsburgh Penguins fan.

S4 certainly became silly with frozen singers, cow sperm, and flying saucers. It also suffered from extremely boring episodes at certain points such as Vote of Confidence and Hell Hath No Fury. Most episodes in season 4--not all but most, IMO--after Like a Hurricane range between below average and poor. I could count on one hand the number of episodes that aired in 1988 and 1989 that can stand along side even average episodes from seasons 1-3. Which is too bad because the best of season 4 early on showed great potential (I feel Death and the Lady, Child's Play, and God's Work were well-directed, nicely paced, and well acted by all involved).

Meanwhile, season 5, IMO, suffered from amateur production, laziness, and a level of ridiculousness that set it apart. By silliness I don't mean attempted comedy, I mean laughably bad dialogue, stories, and characters. My best example is "Miami Squeeze" despite loving the opening song. 1) A villain that looked more at home on the 60s Batman series (something Season 5 suffered from often). 2) The campaign manager-shoots- Castillo/frames Castillo plot that was just poorly done. 3) horribly bad acting/dialogue (the politician's son). Other episodes such as The Cell Within (as stupid as Missing Hours), To Have and to Hold, Hard Knocks, Jack of All Trades, World of Trouble, Miracle Man, Leap of Faith, even Heart of Night to an extent were laughably awful. The camera seemed covered in vaseline or something half the time, crazy camera angles (again, that feeling of Batman 1960s), and Tubbs' wardrobe combined to make this season feel like something out of amnesia-Burnett's nightmares. The change in music only drew more attention to how much the show changed. I remember watching it at the time and wondering what happened to my favorite TV show? PMT clearly still cared, possibly because he needed the job but his acting talent seemed to go on hiatus (in "Too Much, Too Late" he comes across as an adolescent with puppy love). Don Johnson, however, checked out as did EJO (there were times I could nearly hear him say "what the Hell am I still doing in this show?").

Sorry to be so harsh--I know some people love this season--but I see so much wrong with it, particular since I'm old enough to have watched the series during its initial run, so the drop off in quality hit hard (especially after waiting an extra long time for the season to start that year). 

[vicegirl85]

One thought that no one has mentioned yet (I don't think!):

To me, MV was a tragedy in a dramatic sense.  There were signs of this from the beginning.  At least partly because of his own human flaws, there was never going to be a happy ending for Sonny Crockett.   For me as a viewer and fan, that means I could never be truly satisfied with the last season of the show as it spooled out.  Some of the eps were very weak and poorly done (IMO), but even in the strong episodes it was hard to find hope for Crockett to ever experience normal relationships and a normal life.  I've said before that I hated the messy long hair, holey jeans, etc., of Crockett in S5, but I've come to feel those external things were in sync with the character's emotional deterioration and loss of hope.

Finally, in deciding to leave the force and his touchstone, Miami (Take Me Home), for an undecided place where "the water's warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players," Crockett is taking his fate in his hands and trying to change his destiny, which has become very bleak.

[Kladdagh]

1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said:

I've come to feel those external things were in sync with the character's emotional deterioration and loss of hope.

Finally, in deciding to leave the force and his touchstone, Miami (Take Me Home), for an undecided place where "the water's warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players," Crockett is taking his fate in his hands and trying to change his destiny, which has become very bleak.

That is an interresting point of view !!! Thanks for sharing it ... 

[RedDragon86]

8 hours ago, Campion said:

S4 certainly became silly with frozen singers, cow sperm, and flying saucers. It also suffered from extremely boring episodes at certain points such as Vote of Confidence and Hell Hath No Fury. Most episodes in season 4--not all but most, IMO--after Like a Hurricane range between below average and poor. I could count on one hand the number of episodes that aired in 1988 and 1989 that can stand along side even average episodes from seasons 1-3. Which is too bad because the best of season 4 early on showed great potential (I feel Death and the Lady, Child's Play, and God's Work were well-directed, nicely paced, and well acted by all involved).

Meanwhile, season 5, IMO, suffered from amateur production, laziness, and a level of ridiculousness that set it apart. By silliness I don't mean attempted comedy, I mean laughably bad dialogue, stories, and characters. My best example is "Miami Squeeze" despite loving the opening song. 1) A villain that looked more at home on the 60s Batman series (something Season 5 suffered from often). 2) The campaign manager-shoots- Castillo/frames Castillo plot that was just poorly done. 3) horribly bad acting/dialogue (the politician's son). Other episodes such as The Cell Within (as stupid as Missing Hours), To Have and to Hold, Hard Knocks, Jack of All Trades, World of Trouble, Miracle Man, Leap of Faith, even Heart of Night to an extent were laughably awful. The camera seemed covered in vaseline or something half the time, crazy camera angles (again, that feeling of Batman 1960s), and Tubbs' wardrobe combined to make this season feel like something out of amnesia-Burnett's nightmares. The change in music only drew more attention to how much the show changed. I remember watching it at the time and wondering what happened to my favorite TV show? PMT clearly still cared, possibly because he needed the job but his acting talent seemed to go on hiatus (in "Too Much, Too Late" he comes across as an adolescent with puppy love). Don Johnson, however, checked out as did EJO (there were times I could nearly hear him say "what the Hell am I still doing in this show?").

Sorry to be so harsh--I know some people love this season--but I see so much wrong with it, particular since I'm old enough to have watched the series during its initial run, so the drop off in quality hit hard (especially after waiting an extra long time for the season to start that year). 

I do agree with much of what you said but I think "The Cell Within" is fascinating, the story clearly influenced David Fincher's "Se7en"

And John P Ryan is brilliant. 

[Bren10]

5 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

One thought that no one has mentioned yet (I don't think!):

To me, MV was a tragedy in a dramatic sense.  There were signs of this from the beginning.  At least partly because of his own human flaws, there was never going to be a happy ending for Sonny Crockett.   For me as a viewer and fan, that means I could never be truly satisfied with the last season of the show as it spooled out.  Some of the eps were very weak and poorly done (IMO), but even in the strong episodes it was hard to find hope for Crockett to ever experience normal relationships and a normal life.  I've said before that I hated the messy long hair, holey jeans, etc., of Crockett in S5, but I've come to feel those external things were in sync with the character's emotional deterioration and loss of hope.

Finally, in deciding to leave the force and his touchstone, Miami (Take Me Home), for an undecided place where "the water's warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players," Crockett is taking his fate in his hands and trying to change his destiny, which has become very bleak.

Great observation regarding the wardrobe. I totally agree. And there are times when he is similar to his S1 and S2 look but something is a litttle off including the jeans and hair. It's as if there was residual damage after coming back from being Burnett. He could never be 100% the same after that and neither could his look. The story of the show was always an uphill battle and we should know from various individual episodes that a "happy ending" was never really likely. By nature, being a detective is not a normal life, especially undercover. Therefore Crockett could never lead a normal life as long he was one. And as I've said before I don't think a non-law enforcement Crockett is a very happy person. Becoming that removes his raison d' être and he would be living a life in spite of, not because of what he should be doing. As would leaving Miami for an extended length of time. It should be noted that his problem was never with the actual work of law enforcement, but with the lack of results apparently being achieved, the thanklessness of the job, and the bureaucratic red tape (pun) and mismanagement/lack of ethics of the higher-ups, as well a lack of one, single authoritative agenda to what Vice was doing. If some of these problems could be fixed and there was more of a definitive and visible action=reward dynamic  to the job then I believe Crockett would never have thrown his badge down. In fact I believe that under the right (to him at least) conditions (which Castillo could possibly arrange) he would in fact pick it back up, even if wasn't necessarily the Vice department.

Btw, I too think that The Cell Within could be taken a couple of different ways as either ridiculous or a deeper psychological drama/chamber piece/commentary upon the correctional system and what rehabilitation and repaying a debt to society actually means. I think it's an ep that is too easily dismissed, unlike others like the S4 unholy trilogy that actually deserve that. I think the show was reaching for something here but because of several factors that we all know of by now, the execution (pun) just fell a little short.

[Robbie C.]

Interesting points, and it might be worth mentioning that being Burnett gave Crockett a taste of what could be accomplished once those barriers (red tape, bureaucrats, etc.) were removed. Crockett's essentially loner nature could also lend itself to some interesting situations.

[Matt5]

Loved Season 4 and 5 - it was the show going full circle.

[Remington]

S4 I really like despite it having some terrible episodes. S5 felt a little tired and overly bleak at times but it was still pretty solid and a fitting end to the series.

[agent 47]

I've been back and fourth on Four and wasn't that fond of Five years ago but nowadays I really like them especially after watching the series again recently on Blu-ray. With some duds aside (Cows of October particularly) I think the tone was about right after everything that lead up to the last two seasons. When watching the series over again in a shorter period of time I note even if it wasn't intended there was an overall progression in tone and how the characters fit into the world around them. The series started sunnier and brighter, Crockett and Tubbs had more enthusiasm and a good sense of humor despite being in a job where people are constantly gunning for them. By the end they seem burnt out, too many lives lost around them, the villains became even more evil and psychotic and in the final episode the very same people that were supposed to be their allies were in allegiance with the same evil they've been fighting over the years. I think the last two just on their own might not be up the quality of the first three which had a lot more classic episodes you can watch on their own over and over (although not to say Four and Five also didn't have some great episodes that I rewatch a lot such as Borrasca or Indian Wars) but as a conclusion the two seasons work well in that regards and while not perfect by any means do tie up the series without many questions left which funny enough a lot of series which would follow this hardly ever could achieve.

[vicegirl85]

10 hours ago, agent 47 said:

I've been back and fourth on Four and wasn't that fond of Five years ago but nowadays I really like them especially after watching the series again recently on Blu-ray. With some duds aside (Cows of October particularly) I think the tone was about right after everything that lead up to the last two seasons. When watching the series over again in a shorter period of time I note even if it wasn't intended there was an overall progression in tone and how the characters fit into the world around them. The series started sunnier and brighter, Crockett and Tubbs had more enthusiasm and a good sense of humor despite being in a job where people are constantly gunning for them. By the end they seem burnt out, too many lives lost around them, the villains became even more evil and psychotic and in the final episode the very same people that were supposed to be their allies were in allegiance with the same evil they've been fighting over the years. I think the last two just on their own might not be up the quality of the first three which had a lot more classic episodes you can watch on their own over and over (although not to say Four and Five also didn't have some great episodes that I rewatch a lot such as Borrasca or Indian Wars) but as a conclusion the two seasons work well in that regards and while not perfect by any means do tie up the series without many questions left which funny enough a lot of series which would follow this hardly ever could achieve.

I don't think I will ever say I really like Season 4-5, but agree with the rest of your statement completely.  There was "an overall progression in tone and how the characters fit into the world around them," whether intentional or not.  Some loose ends are tied up and yes, "the people who were supposed to be their allies were in allegiance with the same evil they've been fighting over the years."   Great summing up!