What changes would you have made from Season 3 on?

[Bren10]

I think DJ felt entitled and that it was late in coming for him because of the struggles with other pilots. He was 35-ish by the MV pilot right? Imagine someone trying to break through at that age now. To him, i think the world was behind in recognizing his talent. So when success did come he felt he deserved it and lived it up accordingly.

[RedDragon86]

4 hours ago, Bren10 said:

I think DJ felt entitled and that it was late in coming for him because of the struggles with other pilots. He was 35-ish by the MV pilot right? Imagine someone trying to break through at that age now. To him, i think the world was behind in recognizing his talent. So when success did come he felt he deserved it and lived it up accordingly.

I don't mean or like to criticize the show because I love it so much, but I thought Don changed a bit in 3, maybe like Robbie said he was a massive star at that point and his confidence was sky high. Season 4 I thought he went back to his old self. 

Its no big deal really 

[vicegirl85]

6 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

(snipped)Blue Bloods actually is a good example of a show that is episodic in its case plot elements but arc-based on its character side. Vice, I think, would have benefited greatly from this kind of approach, (snipped)

I have often wished that MV had done more character development, and that's something I'd like to have seen, too.  I'd like to have seen more of Crockett's background and perhaps other people outside of the squad who were important to him (if any), and to have gotten to know the other members of the squad better.

Whether de-emphasizing the Crockett character to develop the secondary players would have meant more success and a longer life for the show, it's hard to say.  Recalling back to the time, it appeared that DJ was reaching out to make an impact in as many ways as possible:  not just TV, but film (Sweet Heart's Dance was filmed during the hiatus between S2 and S3) and music (Heartbeat, both the music and the accompanying video).  He was grabbing the brass ring while his star was in ascendancy, and who can blame him?  Was he more of an ass in real life?  I can't judge that, although I do think he had an ego and it was being puffed up from all of the attention he was getting.

But remember when he had his "strike" for a higher salary, and NBC threatened to replace him with Mark Harmon?  Maybe he didn't get everything he wanted, but NBC caved and gave him a big raise as well as more opportunities to direct episodes (which at the time he gave the impression he'd like to do more directing).  That was no doubt because the studio knew he was integral to whatever success MV had gained.  He was the star of MV.  He knew it and they knew it. 

I think EJO had star power (in a totally different style), but he wanted the freedom to shape his character as well as to do any side projects he wanted.  If DJ had left/been let go, I don't believe he would have allowed himself to be built into the star of MV even if that had been floated as a possibility.  In spite of the undeniable chemistry PMT had with DJ, I don't believe he would have been able to carry the weight of being the main character/star.  

[BunMVO]

I’m glad this topic has people talking. I think the bottom line is most of us agree that the changes made in season 3 onward weren’t great for the show. They made it into something it’s not...

[Robbie C.]

5 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I have often wished that MV had done more character development, and that's something I'd like to have seen, too.  I'd like to have seen more of Crockett's background and perhaps other people outside of the squad who were important to him (if any), and to have gotten to know the other members of the squad better.

Whether de-emphasizing the Crockett character to develop the secondary players would have meant more success and a longer life for the show, it's hard to say.  Recalling back to the time, it appeared that DJ was reaching out to make an impact in as many ways as possible:  not just TV, but film (Sweet Heart's Dance was filmed during the hiatus between S2 and S3) and music (Heartbeat, both the music and the accompanying video).  He was grabbing the brass ring while his star was in ascendancy, and who can blame him?  Was he more of an ass in real life?  I can't judge that, although I do think he had an ego and it was being puffed up from all of the attention he was getting.

But remember when he had his "strike" for a higher salary, and NBC threatened to replace him with Mark Harmon?  Maybe he didn't get everything he wanted, but NBC caved and gave him a big raise as well as more opportunities to direct episodes (which at the time he gave the impression he'd like to do more directing).  That was no doubt because the studio knew he was integral to whatever success MV had gained.  He was the star of MV.  He knew it and they knew it. 

I think EJO had star power (in a totally different style), but he wanted the freedom to shape his character as well as to do any side projects he wanted.  If DJ had left/been let go, I don't believe he would have allowed himself to be built into the star of MV even if that had been floated as a possibility.  In spite of the undeniable chemistry PMT had with DJ, I don't believe he would have been able to carry the weight of being the main character/star.  

But I think it's also important to acknowledge that by making DJ the sole star, Vice sowed the seeds of its own demise, and possibly accelerated the process. Any vehicle like that is going to be unstable unless you have a star with some stability and staying power (Magnum PI springs to mind offhand). Ensemble shows by their nature tend to last longer. I tend to think we were lucky to get five seasons out of Vice all things considered.

[Robbie C.]

6 minutes ago, pmconroy said:

I’m glad this topic has people talking. I think the bottom line is most of us agree that the changes made in season 3 onward weren’t great for the show. They made it into something it’s not...

I don't know that I'd go that far. It all depends on what you expected from Vice. If you liked a particular type of music or fashion, then Vice after season 2 would disappoint. If you wanted more variety or some different plot angles, there's quite a bit to see in Vice after season 2. If you look at Vice as a noir for TV show, then Vice remains pretty consistent for its entire run. There are bad episodes in the last three seasons, but there are also howlers in the first two. And if you're looking for solid characterization, frankly Vice will disappoint fairly often throughout the entire run. It did push boundaries and capture the mood of part of a decade throughout its entire run, though.

[BunMVO]

Just now, Robbie C. said:

I don't know that I'd go that far. It all depends on what you expected from Vice. If you liked a particular type of music or fashion, then Vice after season 2 would disappoint. If you wanted more variety or some different plot angles, there's quite a bit to see in Vice after season 2. If you look at Vice as a noir for TV show, then Vice remains pretty consistent for its entire run. There are bad episodes in the last three seasons, but there are also howlers in the first two. And if you're looking for solid characterization, frankly Vice will disappoint fairly often throughout the entire run. It did push boundaries and capture the mood of part of a decade throughout its entire run, though.

For me, it’s deeper than just the way it looked or sounded. Miami Vice had lost cultural relevance to a point and so they were in kahoots about what to do to stay relevant. The first two seasons had a kind of magical escapist feel that the other three failed to capture. How many people, when you mention the show, would immediately think of the later seasons? Probably not many.

To the later seasons credit, it did feel more realistic at times (at times) and had some awesome shootouts and stuff. Not a whole lot of iconic moments though.

[Robbie C.]

1 minute ago, pmconroy said:

For me, it’s deeper than just the way it looked or sounded. Miami Vice had lost cultural relevance to a point and so they were in kahoots about what to do to stay relevant. The first two seasons had a kind of magical escapist feel that the other three failed to capture. How many people, when you mention the show, would immediately think of the later seasons? Probably not many.

To the later seasons credit, it did feel more realistic at times (at times) and had some awesome shootouts and stuff. Not a whole lot of iconic moments though.

That's because culture moves on. Especially in the mid to late 80s. I graduated from high school in 1985 so was around for those shifts. Vice was trying to keep up, and I think had some issues because it wasn't sure which culture it wanted to follow. You also had changes in the drug trade, a declining economy, and lots of other real-world things happening at the same time the network shifted its time slot and you had a succession of show runners who maybe didn't understand what was going on or how to keep it on track. One thing Vice always lacked were solid, continual villains. If Mann likes to create protagonist-antagonist pairings in his movies, why didn't we see more in Vice? And why were some of the ones they created so thin? I get Calderone, but he wasn't a major onscreen presence and was essentially Tubbs' personal nemesis (plus you've killed him off before the end of the first season). Where was Crockett's? Aside from Hackman, who really doesn't appear until season three(!). Even Castillo has one (Lao Li) who appears before this.

What many remember about Vice, sadly, is the MTV cops tagline.

[vicegirl85]

6 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

But I think it's also important to acknowledge that by making DJ the sole star, Vice sowed the seeds of its own demise, and possibly accelerated the process. Any vehicle like that is going to be unstable unless you have a star with some stability and staying power (Magnum PI springs to mind offhand). Ensemble shows by their nature tend to last longer. I tend to think we were lucky to get five seasons out of Vice all things considered.

I agree with this point.  

At the time and given the forces (of viewer response, network influences, and the nature of Michael Mann, who essentially drove the first 2 seasons before growing bored of MV and moving on to Crime Story) the decisions that were made were probably inevitable.  However, I'd like to have seen where MV could have gone if decisions had been different. 

[Robbie C.]

3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree with this point.  

At the time and given the forces (of viewer response, network influences, and the nature of Michael Mann, who essentially drove the first 2 seasons before growing bored of MV and moving on to Crime Story) the decisions that were made were probably inevitable.  However, I'd like to have seen where MV could have gone if decisions had been different. 

I agree. That's why I post some of the stuff I do about character arcs combined with episodic crime stories and things like that. Vice did do some great things, but it's the lost potential that intrigues me the most. Especially when you look at some of the shows that came along later.

[Susan h]

I have been re-watching MV on Roku and I gotta say as a big fan then and still one now that idkwtf happened between the 1st 2.5 seasons and then season 4. Sonny was cool, the music rocked, the plots were better, everything was better. Season 4 only Rico was still cool. The ladies seemed a lot older, Sonny got fat and quit smoking and started wearing loose clothes. The plots were boring and the music almost non-existent. I'll have to quit watching it when Sheena Easton makes her 2st appearance or earlier because it's just so bad from the 4th on out. 

[RedDragon86]

I didn't realize it was Michael Mann's idea to get rid of the pastels until reading this interview with Don Johnson “I’m sorry you have to throw out your whole wardrobe, that’s Michael Mann! M-A-N-N!” but the short haircut was Don's idea, too many long days shooting under hot Florida sun.

 

[Noggie]

Season 3 has some high quality episodes to me.  I’m not sure the show needed a complete style overhaul though. Maybe mix in some different looks but to completely change the color scheme was kind of odd.  Then I’ll always hate the soft focus, hazy look the show took on late in the season. 
 

The increased focus on Crockett hurt.  Season 3 isn’t too bad in this regard but you see it beginning a bit. By season 4 there’s no balance at all. 
 

Some type of continuity would’ve definitely helped. A recurring villain or something. 

[RedDragon86]

11 hours ago, Noggie said:

Season 3 has some high quality episodes to me.  I’m not sure the show needed a complete style overhaul though. Maybe mix in some different looks but to completely change the color scheme was kind of odd.  Then I’ll always hate the soft focus, hazy look the show took on late in the season. 
 

The increased focus on Crockett hurt.  Season 3 isn’t too bad in this regard but you see it beginning a bit. By season 4 there’s no balance at all. 
 

Some type of continuity would’ve definitely helped. A recurring villain or something. 

They should have kept the pastels, looks great on they eye and makes sense anyway in a hot climate. I mean you wouldn't go around wearing dark clothes in Miami, Dubai or Spain.

It's like seeing cricket players wearing dark kits in the blistering heat in Australia or India during a test, wouldn't make sense. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by RedDragon86

[Ferrariman]

I would pay Jan Hammer any amount he wanted to score season 5.  I would also include most of season 4 but I think John Petersen did an excellent job!

[Mr. Calderon]

Calderon marry with Sheena Easton.

 

Oh cmon whats the problem? Both are already dead.

[RedDragon86]

Make John Nicolella the executive producer.