Retro80sfan Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 (edited) Welcome to a place where the 1980s are still going strong, @Wayfarers4ever! I like your username! Your work is excellent, top notch! In my opinion the very bottom one resembles more how the first two seasons looked like back in the 80s. This topic was my first introduction to this site as well. I had also been trying working on the logos of each episode as soon as I saw how the original prints have aged badly over the past 30 years. Oh, btw, for those of you who are wondering, I'm still working on the logos. I'll probably post some of my better corrections to show you my progress so far. Edited September 6, 2018 by Retro80sfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfarers4ever Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 Retro80sfan, thanks for the kind welcome! The more time goes by, the more I love the 1980s postmodern zeitgeist. I've become a huge fan of synthesized music (to the point I've started a vaporwave project), I've always loved the architecture of the era and I've been obsessed with GTA Vice City since it came out, so finding my way over to Miami Vice was only a matter of time. Now that I'm here I'm perhaps most blown away by the incredibly high quality of the entire series and I love the noir/nihilistic tone... Chinatown is my favorite movie, and I'd put MV right in the same exact sunny-yet-dark wheelhouse. ANYWAY, back on topic... I also touched up the very first title from the pilot but did it to my own personal tastes long before I was aware of this thread, and now I'm thinking about how off that version may be. Unedited Hulu... I'm assuming they sourced their files from the DVDs My edit This whole thread has my head spinning... one one hand there's this notion of "color correction" and trying to find what is the proper color palette, and then on the other I know as a semi-profession photographer that the idea of a "correct" piece of art is oftentimes besides the point. And knowing what the limits to broadcast television and 1980s analog technology were like, I have to wonder just how misleading those VHS screenshots might be -- as has been noticed, the luminance and chrominance of VHS was piss poor (to say nothing of sharpness and clarity) and so I don't put a ton of stock into a lot of those screenshots. I clearly see the blue tones that are missing in later versions, but I also see a ton of icky video artifacts and color issues that never would've been envisioned by the creators, so I'm left reading the firsthand accounts and pondering what exactly Michael Mann et al. were seeing. Sorry to be so wordy, but clearly this has me thinking overtime 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro80sfan Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 (edited) Your edit of the Pilot's logo looks alright. I think Hulu sourced it from the newer Mill Creek releases/syndicated versions that streaming services tend to use. Yeah, I also have been thinking that the original prints got their boost from the early TV technology back then that added some of that 'magic' look into the show's signature colors and color palette. Also to note, some of the original airings/re-runs look a little bland than they could be, like for example: "The Prodigal Son" or "The Dutch Oven", where the pink glow and the blue color of the ocean is a little weak. Take that 'magic' away and add 30 plus years of print degradation, you get the DVDs. It's almost as if it's a victim of generational decay. It's nice to see that this topic is bringing this to the attention of more people. Edited September 6, 2018 by Retro80sfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt5 Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 11 hours ago, Retro80sfan said: Your edit of the Pilot's logo looks alright. I think Hulu sourced it from the newer Mill Creek releases/syndicated versions that streaming services tend to use. Yeah, I also have been thinking that the original prints got their boost from the early TV technology back then that added some of that 'magic' look into the show's signature colors and color palette. Also to note, some of the original airings/re-runs look a little bland than they could be, like for example: "The Prodigal Son" or "The Dutch Oven", where the pink glow and the blue color of the ocean is a little weak. Take that 'magic' away and add 30 plus years of print degradation, you get the DVDs. It's almost as if it's a victim of generational decay. It's nice to see that this topic is bringing this to the attention of more people. I agree - I love this topic and it continues to amaze me the variations on the colors through the years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators James Posted September 7, 2018 Administrators Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 16 hours ago, Retro80sfan said: Your edit of the Pilot's logo looks alright. I think Hulu sourced it from the newer Mill Creek releases/syndicated versions that streaming services tend to use. The HD masters on Hulu are definitely the same source as the Bluray releases. But Hulu actually got it off Universal and released it first. I remember HD season 1 being on Hulu at least 2 years before we heard about the Bluray releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfarers4ever Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 ^^ Interesting, thanks for this info. Now all the sudden I'm looking at the skin tones and white spots for the telltale pink-orange haze that's been this source's overall look for the better part of two decades. I want a proper restoration, damnit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfarers4ever Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) So here's a couple edits. Since I'm still somewhat confused about what exactly the original look was, I just went for a neutral/natural look with decent contrast and saturation. "No Exit" unedited from Hulu Edit... might've overdone the orange but I'm tired of lifeless skin tones Castillo as seen in "Glades" unedited (I love this shot of him with the glass blocks!) Given a good polishing Those were all with a fairly neutral white balance and color cast, so my question to those in the know is how did the original look differ? Greater emphasis on blues? Edited September 7, 2018 by Wayfarers4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro80sfan Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Wayfarers4ever said: So here's a couple edits. Since I'm still somewhat confused about what exactly the original look was, I just went for a neutral/natural look with decent contrast and saturation. "No Exit" unedited from Hulu Edit Castillo as seen in "Glades" unedited (I love this shot of him with the glass blocks!) Given a good polishing Those were all with a fairly neutral white balance and color cast, so my question to those in the know is how did the original look differ? Greater emphasis on blues? Nice edits! @ivoryjones would know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators James Posted September 8, 2018 Administrators Report Share Posted September 8, 2018 12 hours ago, Wayfarers4ever said: So here's a couple edits. Since I'm still somewhat confused about what exactly the original look was, I just went for a neutral/natural look with decent contrast and saturation. "No Exit" unedited from Hulu Edit... might've overdone the orange but I'm tired of lifeless skin tones Castillo as seen in "Glades" unedited (I love this shot of him with the glass blocks!) Given a good polishing Those were all with a fairly neutral white balance and color cast, so my question to those in the know is how did the original look differ? Greater emphasis on blues? Pretty much, greater emphasis on the blues, and there were also soft pinks which now look white. And also just more natural colour. When you watch it now they look brown/golden and aged in some episodes, whereas the original TV broadcast has more natural colour as you would see any new/modern show today. When it comes down to it I think it's age, or they stuffed up the mastering process way back when they were remaking it for the DVD's. Because they rescanned the same film edits for the Bluray, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfarers4ever Posted September 8, 2018 Report Share Posted September 8, 2018 (edited) On 4/5/2013 at 6:48 PM, ivoryjones said: DVD. The "sunset effect" on a night scene, awful to me. It looks like a '70s cop show (on an decades later rerun!): VHS. Yes!!! Rich blues, complete absent on the aged print unrestored used on the DVDs! It's not the VHS tape that "created" this, it was on the broadcast! Here's the VHS: DVD. Again the "sunset effect", again Castillo's once white shirt is not that white anymore, and now he's badly sunburnt! Not to mention that a house with no lights is too lit: VHS. YEAH!!!!!!! A print that still had strong blue colors, long before they fade! This scene is just fantastic that way, especially with Jan Hammer cue and its strong piano lines!! Check the VHS out: If nothing else, I just want to say that I find these cases particularly perplexing. For starters, if you edit out the blues you're not going to get images with 400 different shades of red, yellow, green, beige, etc. You're going to get an image with a single color cast, like all yellows, all reds, or all black and white. You simply can't take a source image that is all blue and black and magically get 3000 full spectrum colors... that's just not how image editing works whether we're talking about 1980s, 1990s or 2000s editing tools. So that makes me question what exactly the source image used was. The way I see it, back in 1987 they filmed the scene and then applied a blue filter in post-production.... straightforward enough. BUT THEN it seems that someone at some point (1990s? 2004 DVDs??) had access to the original print that didn't already have the post-production blue filter applied and used that instead...??? For the life of me I don't understand why this would've been done, but from a technical standpoint I don't see how else to explain the changes we see here. Someone must've really hated those Mann-hunter style blues! Edited September 8, 2018 by Wayfarers4ever 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted September 15, 2018 Report Share Posted September 15, 2018 On 9/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Wayfarers4ever said: If nothing else, I just want to say that I find these cases particularly perplexing. For starters, if you edit out the blues you're not going to get images with 400 different shades of red, yellow, green, beige, etc. You're going to get an image with a single color cast, like all yellows, all reds, or all black and white. You simply can't take a source image that is all blue and black and magically get 3000 full spectrum colors... that's just not how image editing works whether we're talking about 1980s, 1990s or 2000s editing tools. So that makes me question what exactly the source image used was. The way I see it, back in 1987 they filmed the scene and then applied a blue filter in post-production.... straightforward enough. BUT THEN it seems that someone at some point (1990s? 2004 DVDs??) had access to the original print that didn't already have the post-production blue filter applied and used that instead...??? For the life of me I don't understand why this would've been done, but from a technical standpoint I don't see how else to explain the changes we see here. Someone must've really hated those Mann-hunter style blues! What syndication (and sadly what the DVDs and Blu-Ray sets used) did to the colors, lighting, and logo-colors for the reruns, has always “perplexed” me! I’m like, what the heck?? Its like they went in and purposely changed things on the copies/prints they were given. I understand that some colors will fade over time and use, on older show’s copies...but it seemed like some colors and lightning effects were altered on purpose! Original airings are superb works of art in the television world, and should have been used for the DVDs & Blu-Ray set! Original airings complete with original commercial-bumpers (for those who are old enough to remember when they used to do those) are the ultimate MV experience! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro80sfan Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 Sorry for taking so long with these! I took a break from the picture restoration projects, so to speak . I will be working on them again pretty soon. I'd thought I'd show 4 of the best logo corrections so far (season 1)... Btw, the individual titles will be above their corresponding pictures to avoid confusion. Little Prince (Original DVD Logo) Little Prince (My Color Correction) Rites of Passage (Original DVD Logo) Rites of Passage (My Color Correction) The Home Invaders (Original DVD Logo) The Home Invaders (My Color Correction) Lombard (Original DVD Logo) Lombard (My Color Correction) 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfarers4ever Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) --bump-- I'm watching through this series again and here I am again wandering aimlessly through this thread trying to interpret the colors I see on Hulu as they were originally intended. Once again I am amazed and baffled by the lack of color in the streaming versions and the variations to the title colors. Anywho, I wandered over onto the official Jan Hammer youtube page and he's got a ton of great videos, interviews with him in the mid-'80s and showing a ton of footage from the show. For the most part they're good quality and some of the clips clearly show the much more vivid colors that has been talked about ad naseum here. I pulled some screenshots from this video, which is worth watching It's from right after Jan won his two Grammys so it's probably from around March '86, in which case this title sequence (glow and then no glow) is from somewhere in the first two seasons Then here's some clips from the official Miami Vice Jan Hammer music video, showing the stupid sh*tty streaming/HD/DVD colors... And as they appeared in the Youtube video Once again, stupid sh*tty streaming/HD/DVD colors... circa 1986 original So once again I'm left to wonder what in the actual f*ck happened to the gorgeous colors of this show. Edited July 15, 2020 by Wayfarers4ever 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Wayfarers4ever said: --bump-- I'm watching through this series again and here I am again wandering aimlessly through this thread trying to interpret the colors I see on Hulu as they were originally intended. Once again I am amazed and baffled by the lack of color in the streaming versions and the variations to the title colors. Anywho, I wandered over onto the official Jan Hammer youtube page and he's got a ton of great videos, interviews with him in the mid-'80s and showing a ton of footage from the show. For the most part they're good quality and some of the clips clearly show the much more vivid colors that has been talked about ad naseum here. I pulled some screenshots from this video, which is worth watching It's from right after Jan won his two Grammys so it's probably from around March '86, in which case this title sequence (glow and then no glow) is from somewhere in the first two seasons Then here's some clips from the official Miami Vice Jan Hammer music video, showing the stupid sh*tty streaming/HD/DVD colors... And as they appeared in the Youtube video Once again, stupid sh*tty streaming/HD/DVD colors... circa 1986 original So once again I'm left to wonder what in the actual f*ck happened to the gorgeous colors of this show. To this day, I still have yet to figure out why colors for the show logo & even certain scene clips were changed or altered for syndicated reruns and eventually the DVDs and Blu-rays (and subsequently eventually the streaming versions)? It literally makes no sense! I never have gotten a Blu-ray set yet, as I heard there were issues or problems with some of the episodes with quality and playback. I have, though, always enjoyed the quality and playback with all of the official DVD sets. However, the episodes used for the DVDs and Blu-rays (and streaming ones) are the altered/syndicated versions. But, several years ago I was lucky & blessed enough to be able to acquire homemade DVDs of most of the original NBC airings...complete with original colors, unedited scenes, colors of the logos, and even the original commercial-bumpers (back when they used to have a little still-scene advertisement of the show in the middle of commercials, saying “Miami Vice will be right back”)! They can talk about digitally remastered-shmastered all they want...in my opinion my ‘original airing’ set is MV gold! But, what I don’t understand is, if they went to all the trouble and money to make sure all of the original music and songs were used for the DVD and Blu-ray sets (which was the right decision, by all means), why would they not also make sure they used original airing episodes—complete with original colors, logos and unedited scenes? Edited July 15, 2020 by ViceFanMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Hanna Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 I guess colours looked differently on the old cathode ray tube TVs. The blu-ray set has a lot of problems but it seems like a better representation of what they actually filmed rather than imitating how the show looked on old TVs with the washed out colours. I'm fairly happy with the blu-rays, (Besides the 5.0 sound being unlistenable). The only issues I've found is there's no 2.0 sound for Mirror Image and the black levels in some of the night scenes in Prodigal Son are a little wonky, but other than that it's the best Miami Vice has ever looked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glades Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 36 minutes ago, Vincent Hanna said: I guess colours looked differently on the old cathode ray tube TVs. The blu-ray set has a lot of problems but it seems like a better representation of what they actually filmed rather than imitating how the show looked on old TVs with the washed out colours. I'm fairly happy with the blu-rays, (Besides the 5.0 sound being unlistenable). The only issues I've found is there's no 2.0 sound for Mirror Image and the black levels in some of the night scenes in Prodigal Son are a little wonky, but other than that it's the best Miami Vice has ever looked. What blu-ray set do you have? Mill Creek? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Hanna Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, Glades said: What blu-ray set do you have? Mill Creek? Yes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Vincent Hanna said: I guess colours looked differently on the old cathode ray tube TVs. The blu-ray set has a lot of problems but it seems like a better representation of what they actually filmed rather than imitating how the show looked on old TVs with the washed out colours. I'm fairly happy with the blu-rays, (Besides the 5.0 sound being unlistenable). The only issues I've found is there's no 2.0 sound for Mirror Image and the black levels in some of the night scenes in Prodigal Son are a little wonky, but other than that it's the best Miami Vice has ever looked. Some of the colors may have faded out some by the time the syndicated reruns started. However, reruns started on the USA network the year right after MV ended (1990), so I find it hard to believe that colors would’ve “faded” that soon. But, some colors were purposely altered or changed...there’s no way they’d “fade” to the colors shown for reruns—and eventually the DVDs & Blu-rays. I’ve never had any problems with the sound or picture quality on the DVD sets, they were actually always really good for me! The biggest issue I have with the DVDs/Blu-rays is the altered/syndicated versions were used for the episodes...so they have the “faded”/altered colors & edited scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfarers4ever Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) Let me just say that I pulled those latest shots from that 1986 video on Jan Hammer specifically because the rest of the video is in high quality with good colors/contrast/black point and no apparent generational loss... if anything it looks like it could be from an original master tape and not a VHS copy. So I'm taking it at face value and assuming the Miami Vice clips show the colors in original HQ condition, and that's why I decided to do the compare & contrast EDIT: for instance, this is from the beginning of the video. Every color speaks clearly with no VHS smearing or wash-out... excellent quality color for 1986 Edited July 15, 2020 by Wayfarers4ever added photo 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glades Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 10 hours ago, Wayfarers4ever said: --bump-- I'm watching through this series again and here I am again wandering aimlessly through this thread trying to interpret the colors I see on Hulu as they were originally intended. Once again I am amazed and baffled by the lack of color in the streaming versions and the variations to the title colors. Anywho, I wandered over onto the official Jan Hammer youtube page and he's got a ton of great videos, interviews with him in the mid-'80s and showing a ton of footage from the show. For the most part they're good quality and some of the clips clearly show the much more vivid colors that has been talked about ad naseum here. I pulled some screenshots from this video, which is worth watching It's from right after Jan won his two Grammys so it's probably from around March '86, in which case this title sequence (glow and then no glow) is from somewhere in the first two seasons Then here's some clips from the official Miami Vice Jan Hammer music video, showing the stupid sh*tty streaming/HD/DVD colors... And as they appeared in the Youtube video Once again, stupid sh*tty streaming/HD/DVD colors... circa 1986 original So once again I'm left to wonder what in the actual f*ck happened to the gorgeous colors of this show. Do anyone know what episode are this screenshots from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfarers4ever Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Glades said: Do anyone know what episode are this screenshots from? The indoor scenes are from s02e01 "The Prodigal Son", so it's safe to assume the titles come that episode as well 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Glades said: Do anyone know what episode are this screenshots from? If you mean the ones at the bottom of the post you quoted, that’s near the beginning of “Prodigal Son”. Edit- oops @Wayfarers4ever beat me by a minute Edited July 15, 2020 by Dadrian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Hanna Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 I understand some of you guys watched the show when it originally aired but I think the top picture is a more accurate representation what they filmed and way the show was supposed to look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pahonu Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 I’m no expert on this topic but I have a friend who in the 90’s used to work in film processing for Deluxe film lab in Hollywood, the 100+ year old company. I learned a lot from him. Of course, now everything is digital. My understanding is that 35mm film like the ubiquitous Panaflex used for Miami Vice and most dramatic television for decades, has real issues with color degradation over time. If the negative is not stored absolutely properly, it can start to degrade in as little as five years! Also, the different colors degrade at different rates. Add to that the transfer to video, which is what we were watching in the 80’s, and there is an immense amount of variability in color possibilities. Even going back to the original negative for Blu-ray isn’t the “original” color because the negative has degraded and will have to be color corrected. All these steps, from the original film development to the video transfer to modern color correction involve decisions by individuals along the way. They all affect the colors. If you take it to its logical end, our TV choice and even our own vision affect the colors we perceive. Bottom line, I think it’s hard define precisely what the original colors were for any film. We definitely notice the changes over time, but what were the original colors...??? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 25 minutes ago, Wayfarers4ever said: Let me just say that I pulled those latest shots from that 1986 video on Jan Hammer specifically because the rest of the video is in high quality with good colors/contrast/black point and no apparent generational loss... if anything it looks like it could be from an original master tape and not a VHS copy. So I'm taking it at face value and assuming the Miami Vice clips show the colors in original HQ condition, and that's why I decided to do the compare & contrast EDIT: for instance, this is from the beginning of the video. Every color speaks clearly with no VHS smearing or wash-out... excellent quality color for 1986 Cool! This old Jan Hammer video from 86 (wherever you found it at) was probably never altered or changed. The colors are “true” and original from when the video was made. For whatever reasons some of the colors for the show logo and scenes for the episodes were altered or changed when reruns went into syndication—and subsequently for the DVDs & Blu-rays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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