Jack Gretsky Posted August 25, 2020 Report Share Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) Certainly the best ep of the second half of season 2. Intriguing story that keeps you guessing and a top-notch cast: Hedaya, Zappa (is the phrase "weasel dust" an in-joke reference to Zappa's album Weasels Ripped My Flesh?), and Beckel. I kept my guard up re Cates because I'd recently seen Beckel playing corrupt cops in both Jennifer Eight and L.A. Confidential! My favorite scene was the IA waiting room where Sonny slowly realizes that the random guy reading the magazine is actually an IA agent examining Crockett's behavior under pressure. It was all a bit surreal, love it. It was great hearing Hammer's "Russian Story" cue again here. Bushido is both one of my top episodes (thus my MV handle) and favorite episode music scores. Edited August 26, 2020 by Jack Gretsky 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted August 26, 2020 Report Share Posted August 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Jack Gretsky said: Certainly the best ep of the second half of season 2. Intriguing story that keeps you guessing and a top-notch cast: Hedaya, Zappa (is the phrase "weasel dust" an in-joke reference to Zappa's album Weasels Ripped My Flesh?), and Beckel. I kept my guard up re Cates because I'd recently seen Beckel playing corrupt cops in both Jennifer Eight and L.A. Confidential! My favorite scene was the IA waiting room where Sonny slowly realizes that the random guy reading the magazine is actually an IA agent examining Crockett's behavior under pressure. It was all a bit surreal, love it. It was great hearing Hammer's "Russian Story" cue again here. Bushido is both one of my top episodes (thus my MV handle) and favorite episode music scores. Definitely a good episode from Season 2...but 2 is my favorite season overall, and I love most of the episodes! Below is my review from several years ago: On 4/12/2013 at 1:26 AM, ViceFanMan said: Man, I love this episode! Talk about a wild, attention-getting beginning with Moroto mock-kissing Crockett on the cheek and then blowing his brains out with a homemade ball-bearing gun! Then it goes straight into Crockett being harrassed by a mysterious caller accusing him of having money to share, while internal affairs thinks he stole a drug dealer's money. I love the guest-stars, Dan Hedaya and Frank Zappa--perfect choices for the drug dealers! I've always liked Dan Hedaya because he's a good character actor. The first thing I ever say him in was the 1986 TV movie "Smoky Mountain Christmas", with Dolly Parton and Lee Majors. He was a goofball in that...so when I see him play bad guys and jerks (such as in "One Eyed Jack") it's always fun! The action, wild plot twists, acting jobs, colors, Crockett's wardrobe in this one (some of my favorites and I wish I had those clothes!), everything was awesome!! :thumbsup:I meant to vote a 9...but I accidentally hit the 8 instead! But, either way, another superb episode for season 2!! Still pretty much stand by my review from ‘13! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Gretsky Posted August 26, 2020 Report Share Posted August 26, 2020 (edited) Hey ViceFan Man! I've been using this forum as I'm in the midst of a big Vice rewatch and I always look forward to reading your posts. Edited August 26, 2020 by Jack Gretsky 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted August 26, 2020 Report Share Posted August 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Jack Gretsky said: Hey ViceFan Man! I've been using this forum as I'm in the midst of a big Vice rewatch and I always look forward to reading your posts. Thanks! It’s been about 3 years since I’ve done a complete MV run-through...it’s probably about time for another one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeezem3 Posted August 26, 2020 Report Share Posted August 26, 2020 6 hours ago, ViceFanMan said: Thanks! It’s been about 3 years since I’ve done a complete MV run-through...it’s probably about time for another one. Go for it! Almost two years passed by for me until I finally re-started with the pilot lately and I really enjoyed it! It certainly demands some kind of a longer break to be able to enjoy it to the fullest again. Cant wait for Payback - what an iconic episode, right from the start when Crockett walks into the prison. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted August 26, 2020 Report Share Posted August 26, 2020 11 hours ago, squeezem3 said: Go for it! Almost two years passed by for me until I finally re-started with the pilot lately and I really enjoyed it! It certainly demands some kind of a longer break to be able to enjoy it to the fullest again. Cant wait for Payback - what an iconic episode, right from the start when Crockett walks into the prison. I love to do it when I get out and display all my MV memorabilia for a few months...but it takes some work to get it all up and displayed how I want it, lol! I’ll have to do it again soon. I have so many shows I’ve collected over the years, that it’s not usually a problem to start a different one & give others a break...I usually have a few years in between viewings for each show...and I agree, after a long break or period, it’s more fun & enjoyable to come back again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren10 Posted August 26, 2020 Report Share Posted August 26, 2020 Part of the problem with this ep, even though it is a great one as stated, is that realistically everybody and their mother in Miami would know Crockett is a cop by now. I know we have to suspend disbelief with things like this so that the show can function and entertain, but by making the issue a central plot point it highlights one of the show's weaknesses as far as scrutiny is concerned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Vigilante Posted August 26, 2020 Report Share Posted August 26, 2020 18 minutes ago, Bren10 said: Part of the problem with this ep, even though it is a great one as stated, is that realistically everybody and their mother in Miami would know Crockett is a cop by now. I know we have to suspend disbelief with things like this so that the show can function and entertain, but by making the issue a central plot point it highlights one of the show's weaknesses as far as scrutiny is concerned. Yeah, I had to give up on that. Those things used to bug me, but now I'm like "Whatever...it's tv/movie". Even in the pilot they would've whisked Sonny away from the scene to debrief, and certainly not kept him on scene for all the onlookers. Someone brought up Free Verse recently too. The whole scene of the vice team in the airport was ridiculous, but so was the episode. The opening of Payback is one of my favorites. I get chills with the music. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Bren10 said: Part of the problem with this ep, even though it is a great one as stated, is that realistically everybody and their mother in Miami would know Crockett is a cop by now. I know we have to suspend disbelief with things like this so that the show can function and entertain, but by making the issue a central plot point it highlights one of the show's weaknesses as far as scrutiny is concerned. 1 hour ago, Mr. Vigilante said: Yeah, I had to give up on that. Those things used to bug me, but now I'm like "Whatever...it's tv/movie". Even in the pilot they would've whisked Sonny away from the scene to debrief, and certainly not kept him on scene for all the onlookers. Someone brought up Free Verse recently too. The whole scene of the vice team in the airport was ridiculous, but so was the episode. The opening of Payback is one of my favorites. I get chills with the music. With TV back then you weren’t supposed to worry or focus much on the “reality” aspect. That wasn’t the point. Shows were about entertainment, escaping reality for an hour or two, and having FUN while watching them! Most of today’s shows are either reality show garbage (that is anything but reality) or shows so caught up in trying to be as real as they can, that they’re not that entertaining anymore. They’ve lost the fun or “cool” features and we’ve kind of out-smarted ourselves to where...we’re not so smart no more. I miss the days when you didn’t look for or care about every detail or possible “mistake”...you watched because the show was cool, fun, and you enjoyed it! This is how MV is meant to be viewed...go with it, and have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren10 Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 I think you missed everything I just said. I already conceded that we have to overlook things so that we can enjoy the art. But this particular episode actually exploits one of the things we're supposed to overlook-that Sonny is an undercover cop who's cover could be blown. It draws attention to a potential flaw that the show usually doesn't point at. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 10 minutes ago, Bren10 said: I think you missed everything I just said. I already conceded that we have to overlook things so that we can enjoy the art. But this particular episode actually exploits one of the things we're supposed to overlook-that Sonny is an undercover cop who's cover could be blown. It draws attention to a potential flaw that the show usually doesn't point at. I think he missed it as well. And anyone who thinks people in "the old days" didn't fight about shows being realistic or not must have slept through the original Star Trek fusses and squabbles. If you don't have fun watching some shows, you're just watching the wrong shows. NCIS LA is enjoyable as a Vice heir in many ways, and there are other really good shows out there as well (Longmire, Justified, and so on). Many of the old shows (Gunsmoke being a great example) prided themselves on being authentic, and the scripts from Wild Wild West actually pointed out elements that were either historically accurate or things that weren't (with an explanation of why they were used). Vice is at its worst when it contradicts itself. That's why I bitch about continuity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 26 minutes ago, Bren10 said: I think you missed everything I just said. I already conceded that we have to overlook things so that we can enjoy the art. But this particular episode actually exploits one of the things we're supposed to overlook-that Sonny is an undercover cop who's cover could be blown. It draws attention to a potential flaw that the show usually doesn't point at. I didn’t miss anything ...just saying that shows back then could go back and forth with continuity flaws. Some aspects were made to try and be more “realistic”...others were not. But, the majority of shows were more about entertainment and fun, than reality. In the grand-scheme of whatever show, we could be expected to normally overlook some “flaw” that in reality would never be. But, if the plot of one of the episodes is specifically about that so-called flaw, then suddenly for that episode we are supposed to focus on it. Usually it gets dealt with by the end, and by the next episode you’re once again supposed to forget this unrealistic flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDragon86 Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 (edited) The Sopranos is the worst when it comes to being realistic. Apparently in that world you can kill people in broad day light with CCTV cameras everywhere and when a hit goes down they always leave DNA behind, never wear gloves or cover their tracks and the cops never question anybody. Miami Vice is great at this, much more technically better. The bad guys are always careful when it comes to killing, wearing gloves, disguises etc. Edited August 27, 2020 by RedDragon86 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewRemington Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 (edited) I don’t want to argue with anyone, but I think it would have been wise for Sonny to get a new cover name... However, Sonny Burnett just had a nice ring to it. ”Payback” is one of my favorites. “Payback” is one of my favorite Jan Hammer pieces. I’ve watched this episode (and “Definitely Miami”) the most out of any other episodes. ”Milk Run” and “Evan” are probably my top two but because of the emotional factors I don’t watch them as frequently. Edited August 27, 2020 by AndrewRemington 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 11 minutes ago, AndrewRemington said: I don’t want to argue with anyone, but I think it would have been wise for Sonny to get a new cover name... However, Sonny Burnett just had a nice ring to it. ”Payback” is one of my favorites. “Payback” is one of my favorite Jan Hammer pieces. I’ve watched this episode (and “Definitely Miami”) the most out of any other episodes. ”Milk Run” and “Evan” are probably my top two but because of the emotional factors I don’t watch them as frequently. You’re not arguing with anyone...you can state your opinion like anyone else. But, in reality it definitely would have been wise for Crockett to create different undercover names, rather than use the same one every time. But, that’s one of those “quirks/unrealistic flaws” we’re usually supposed to overlook. Payback is a very good episode for multiple reasons, as is Evan! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 Forgive my stupidity, but could someone please tell me that I got this right: The money on the boat was DEA money, NOT the money that Cates stole. He set this whole thing up to steal ANOTHER $3 million? No, that can't be right. Okay, so if the money IS the $3 million that Cates stole, why is it on the boat? To convince Fuentes that Sonny is really returning it so that Fuentes kills Sonny and doesn't suspect Cates of stealing it? No, because then Cates would be broke again. Not to mention there was no indication that Fuentes even suspected Cates, so why would Cates go to all this trouble? But no, it can't be that either because Cates shoots Reydolfo. Why did Cates shoot Reydolfo? Was he going to shoot Sonny too and try to escape? With the Vice team aware that the wire is dead, they'd likely alert the Coast Guard. Cates wouldn't get far. If Cates hadn't shot Reydolfo, it would have made more sense, but only if the money in the bag is DEA stash money and not the money that Cates actually stole = bring Sonny to Fuentes, Fuentes kills him, gets his money, and all continues as usual. (Cates, of course, doesn't know that Tubbs has figured him out so he assumes he'll be able to sell the idea that the wire went dead all on its own and shrug his shoulders while saying "Poor Sonny." No, that can't be it either. Why am I not seeing what Cates was up to? It's probably a lot simpler than I'm making it, but for some reason I can't see it. Can anyone help me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Titus said: Why did Cates shoot Reydolfo? Was he going to shoot Sonny too and try to escape? This has always been my take. 11 minutes ago, Titus said: With the Vice team aware that the wire is dead, they'd likely alert the Coast Guard. Cates wouldn't get far. If so, MV had many illogical errors like this. With that much money at his disposal, Cates could have arranged for a helicopter or sea-boat to pick him up maybe? I’d like to read @Robbie C.’s or @Tom’s thoughts on your question(s), Titus. Edited September 26, 2020 by Dadrian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 vor 5 Minuten schrieb Dadrian: This has always been my take. If so, MV had many illogical errors like this. With that much money at his disposal, Cates could have arranged for a helicopter or sea-boat to pick him up maybe? I’d like to read @Robbie C.’s or @Tom’s thoughts on your question(s), Titus. My take on it: yes, they knew when the wire went dead that the deal went sour. But as long as you don´t know exactly where they are (they could not use a helicopter for obvious reasons), it´s not easy to find them within a grid of hundreds of square miles. Also, Cates could have used the Scarab (or another fast boat after a switch) to escape Coast Guard easily. Crockett mentioned in some episodes that his boat was faster than "anything the Coast Guard has". And: Cates wanted to kill all witnesses on the boat to get away with it and disappear. I assume he would have dropped both bodies into the sea and tell Fuente that Crockett or Reydolfo. fled with it. Until this point Fuente always suspected Crockett to have the money stashed, not Cates. Only Tubbs and MV knew the truth by now, but Fuente would not have asked them ... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 46 minutes ago, Tom said: (they could not use a helicopter for obvious reasons) C’mon now! Use your imagination! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 Gerade eben schrieb Dadrian: C’mon now! Use your imagination! The reason why I bust so many people is my subtle approach! Yes. Like a cement mixer!“. (Miami Squeeze) PS most series are that stupid. Just watched Shades of blue and there police approached a suspicious warehouse without any traffic around with sirens and full lights. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) All jokes aside: I suspend all subsequent disbelief the moment they depict $3M containable by that duffle bag. Edited September 26, 2020 by Dadrian 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 vor 2 Minuten schrieb Dadrian: All jokes aside: I suspend subsequent disbelief the moment they depict $3M containable by that duffle bag. All jokes aside: many films and series often show that big cash amounts in bags or suitcases consist of 1000 dollar bills which is nonsense of course as you cannot use them in real life only in interbanking business. But this Fantasy Trick enabled many films to justify amazingly big amounts in small containers! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tom said: All jokes aside: many films and series often show that big cash amounts in bags or suitcases consist of 1000 dollar bills which is nonsense of course as you cannot use them in real life only in interbanking business. But this Fantasy Trick enabled many films to justify amazingly big amounts in small containers! I had a bank teller job when I was in college. I’ll never forget once holding about $250k in a couple of HEAVY bags and thinking “man, all the shows and movies are full of $h*#!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 So @Tom, you're saying that Cates' entire plan was to steal ANOTHER $3 million from the DEA "stash" on top of the $3 million that he already stole from Fuentes? So, in other words, he was sitting there at his desk at the DEA office one day and he sees that Sonny Crockett is being investigated for Manoto's death and is now a target of Fuentes. "Aha!" he thinks. "My chance to steal another $3 million! This time from my own agency!" If so, that makes the most sense I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) vor 33 Minuten schrieb Dadrian: I had a bank teller job when I was in college. I’ll never forget once holding about $250k in a couple of HEAVY bags and thinking “man, all the shows and movies are full of $h*#!! I would like to have such bag full of $h*#. Next time you´re in such a fix, call me please! Edited September 26, 2020 by Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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