Episode #41 "Payback"

[Titus]

Even though... even though... and this is where the another $3 million idea gives me pause... Cates now has to outrun everybody and start a new life somewhere when he could have just settled for the original $3 million, kept his mouth shut, and lived his normal life. Doesn't make sense.

Again, maybe I'm looking for sense when I should just be appreciating all the visual elements that made this episode great: the fight on the boat, picking up the girl at the club, punching Cates outside Castillo's office, Reydolfo's outdoor deck, the opening scene etc.

It just always bugged me that I never understood Cates' motivation to do what he did.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Titus

[Robbie C.]

I'd say Cates was going to kill them both and take as much money as he could find in the immediate area. As for Sonny with his outrunning the Coast Guard claim...he might be able to get away from some of the boats (although the CG started deploying their own go-fast boats in response to the drug stuff), but he sure as hell couldn't outrun a helicopter. Air interdiction was a thing even back then, and door gunners are pretty accurate. And as they always liked to say you can't outrun radar. Customs got their own P-3 aircraft in 1988, but the Navy had been supporting them prior to that with the same capability. One of the reasons the drug trade shifted to Mexico was how effectively the southeast corridor was shut down, after all.

Corruption of other agencies was always a "thing" on Vice, so it's usually best to assume the most venal motives when another dirty cop (or agent) appears.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Robbie C.

[Tom]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Titus:

So @Tom, you're saying that Cates' entire plan was to steal ANOTHER $3 million from the DEA "stash" on top of the $3 million that he already stole from Fuentes?

So, in other words, he was sitting there at his desk at the DEA office one day and he sees that Sonny Crockett is being investigated for Manoto's death and is now a target of Fuentes.

"Aha!" he thinks. "My chance to steal another $3 million! This time from my own agency!"

If so, that makes the most sense I guess.

Now I´m lost. There was only one 3M bag stolen from Fuente. Stolen by Maroto. The guy who killed himself after meeting Crockett in jail. Thus, Fuente thought Crockett knew where it was and took it (because that is what Cates told him). This was also the reason why Cates got so easy access to meet Fuente and Crockett could not. Fuente did not want to meet with Crockett as long as he thought he was a small fish. Only when Cates told Reydolfo Crockett had the Maroto money and was the last guy seeing Maroto alive, Fuente wanted to meet Crockett asap. Cates brought the money onto the boat with Reydolfo and Crockett at the end. Officially for brining it back to Fuente. My take is he killed Reydolfo and wanted to kill Crockett to flee with it instead. I don´t think Cates risked all that just to get a finder´s fee from Fuente. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tom

[Robbie C.]

I seem to recall there only being the DEA money in play, as no one knew where the original $3m was except the dead man. Maybe Cates had an idea and wanted to double his 'investment,' or maybe he was happy with the $3m no matter where it came from. But I haven't watched this episode for a couple of years so I could be mistaken. In any case, the money was just a prop for another tale of official corruption...the kind Vice liked to probe so much.

[Tom]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Robbie C.:

I seem to recall there only being the DEA money in play, as no one knew where the original $3m was except the dead man. Maybe Cates had an idea and wanted to double his 'investment,' or maybe he was happy with the $3m no matter where it came from. But I haven't watched this episode for a couple of years so I could be mistaken. In any case, the money was just a prop for another tale of official corruption...the kind Vice liked to probe so much.

Fuente told Crockett on his boat that his employee Maroto stole his 3M and split. Cates knew where it was and took it while Maroto was in local cut. There was no DEA money involved as it was not planned to bring the money to the meet. Cates surprisingly brought it along to the meet by stashing it on the boat. Tubbs found out that Cates approached IAD to help not vice versa. There was never a second 3M in play, nor any DEA money. Cates just said in OCB he would manage to provide DEA flash money to stand in for the missing 3M if needed.

A potential logical loophole in this episode is why Cates framed Crockett at all. He could just have taken Maroto´s 3M and disappear. He would never been suspected by anyone. So, it remains open what Cates plan was when going on the boat with Crockett and Reydolfo. But we can rule out that he wanted to give Fuente the money back.

[Dadrian]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

I would like to have such bag full of $h*#. Next time you´re in such a fix, call me please! 

Will you give me “some sort of finder’s fee—a Camado, or some ting”? 

[Tom]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

Will you give me “some sort of finder’s fee—a Camado, or some ting”? 

I thought a signed autograph and an honorable mention on my sponsor wall will do it. Remember that I will relieve you of a bag full of real $hx# 

[Dadrian]

8 minutes ago, Tom said:

I thought a signed autograph and an honorable mention on my sponsor wall will do it. Remember that I will relieve you of a bag full of real $hx# 

I need your word—in person—or no deal a-tall.  

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

A potential logical loophole in this episode is why Cates framed Crockett at all. He could just have taken Maroto´s 3M and disappear. He would never been suspected by anyone. So, it remains open what Cates plan was when going on the boat with Crockett and Reydolfo. But we can rule out that he wanted to give Fuente the money back.

Perhaps if Cates had just taken the money and disappeared, it would have looked suspicious to Fuente. By setting Crockett up to look like he took the money & disappeared, it would look better or less suspicious for himself and give him more time or more of an “out” to just fade away with the cash, and Fuente would still think Crockett had it?? 

[Tom]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan:

Perhaps if Cates had just taken the money and disappeared, it would have looked suspicious to Fuente. By setting Crockett up to look like he took the money & disappeared, it would look better or less suspicious for himself and give him more time or more of an “out” to just fade away with the cash, and Fuente would still think Crockett had it?? 

That is a potential explanation I mentioned myself further up as well. But there is a problem: Fuente had no clue that Cates knew about the 3M. He believed Maroto had it stashed when he died. Why did Cates risk at all to bring himself to Fuente´s attention by framing Crockett. If he had split, Fuente would not have noticed and not connected Cates with the Maroto money. Cates also could have stayed and wait for a few years before spending it. But coming forward into Fuente´s spotlight and drawing Fuente´s attention to it was IMHO the dumbest thing he could do. But maybe I had to be a screenwriter to understand that 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tom

[ViceFanMan]

13 minutes ago, Tom said:

That is a potential explanation I mentioned myself further up as well. But there is a problem: Fuente had no clue that Cates knew about the 3M. He believed Maroto had it stashed when he died. Why did Cates risk at all to bring himself to Fuente´s attention by framing Crockett. If he had split, Fuente would not have noticed and not connected Cates with the Maroto money. Cates also could have stayed and wait for a few years before spending it. But coming forward into Fuente´s spotlight and drawing Fuente´s attention to it was IMHO the dumbest thing he could do. But maybe I had to be a screenwriter to understand that 

This is true!  Writers probably didn’t even realize they’d created a plot aspect or loophole that didn’t quite add up or make sense.  

[Titus]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

A potential logical loophole in this episode is why Cates framed Crockett at all. He could just have taken Maroto´s 3M and disappear. He would never been suspected by anyone. So, it remains open what Cates plan was when going on the boat with Crockett and Reydolfo.

There it is! You nailed it. That's my biggest problem with understanding Cates' motivation. If he had the money and nobody suspected, why bother with Crockett at all? The entire motivation of the villain is based on an unfilled loophole.

Not that I really care because it's a great episode... but I'm always left scratching my head afterwards.

[Dadrian]

As for the “loophole”, maybe Cates needed a scapegoat for insurance that he would never get caught if Fuente (believing Crockett had taken it) stopped looking for the money?

But then what would Cates’ explanation to the whereabouts of the money be to Fuente if he’d succeeded killing both Crockett and Reydolfo?

[Robbie C.]

1 minute ago, Dadrian said:

As for the “loophole”, maybe Cates needed a scapegoat for insurance that he would never get caught if Fuente (believing Crockett had taken it) stopped looking for the money?

But then what would Cates’ explanation to the whereabouts of the money be to Fuente if he’d succeeded killing both Crockett and Reydolfo?

I don't think anyone really cared about that as much as they did another plot involving a corrupt Fed or cop. Plots tended to get pretty loose when they were intended to be something of a background element to the main point about law enforcement corruption.

[RedDragon86]

Someone had to be blamed for stealing the money.

Edited September 27, 2020 by RedDragon86

[Bren10]

What if Cates simply harbored a pathological and deep seated resentment towards someone he thought was better off than him and got away with a lot (Sonny)? We are, after all, read a laundry list of Cates' problems which seems a lot worse than Sonny. There were like 4 broken marriages in there, more than Sonny ever suffered. In fact, the ransacking of the St Vitus could be seen as a passive aggressive move against Sonny's luxury. Don't forget he was about to engage in another 1nite stand before it was sabotaged by this. I'm betting Cates rationalized that Sonny (someone things come easy to) deserved it while he himself deserved to "relax" because he had earned it. It could be as simple as that and doesn't require much logic because we're dealing with extreme emotions. It does seem that Cates truly regretted his actions in the end because after spending time with Crockett he realized, like Castillo said, Sonny is a "good cop".

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

I'll go into more detail about this episode another time, but I like the question up above about why Cates/Carlin set up Crockett for the 3 mil (To speak for logic I agree that Cates should've just sat on the money and/or quietly retired). My question is this though: who was the "Share the wealth, Crockett" guy on the phone? To me it sounds like IAD Agent Earle Hodges (another IA guy with a poker), and he's trying to smoke Crockett out.

[Adrian321]

A very good episode. 10/10. Not the best S2 had to offer, however, it was the 2nd best S2 episode, only behind Definitely Miami. Atleast for me.

 

The intro with Crockett showing the badge is so memorable and with that suicidal maniac with a zip gun. Top 15 scenes

The end sequence is top 10 favourite scenes.

We have a lot of "Sea" time.

That bar scene is pure 80's

One of the few episodes that does not end on "Freeze"

We see the St.Vitus Dance and Elvis.

That yacht scene with Mario Fuente, and when he gets dropped in the ocean is so amusing.....

Good lines : "You one tough cop. It takes a tough cop to bust me..... Now we find out how tough you are!" -- Moroto to Crockett";  "No wonder I felt like I was being watched - I was being watched!!"--Crockett;  "Just once I'd like to know what it's like when a lady asks my name to tell her Crockett and not Sonny Burnett." -- Crockett

So much style........ from the clothing to the envirovment.

The music is smooth and relaxing. Jann Hammer made a good job here with the "Payback" themes.

 

Originally, I gave it a bit less, but when I rewatched it, it is a 10/10. I think this is now my 9th favourite episode, replacing "The Prodigal Son", and making Smuggler's blues become my 11th favourite episode now.

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Adrian321
Forgot something

[ViceFanMan]

This is one of the best episodes of the season, and maybe of the series! Talk about a wild, attention-getting beginning with Moroto mock-kissing Crockett on the cheek and then blowing his brains out with a homemade ball-bearing gun!

Then it goes straight into Crockett being harrassed by a mysterious caller accusing him of having money/wealth to share, while internal affairs thinks he initially stole $3,000,000 from Fuente. I love the guest-stars, Dan Hedaya and Frank Zappa--perfect choices for the drug dealers!  I've always liked Dan Hedaya because he's a good character actor. The first thing I ever say him in was the 1986 TV movie Smoky Mountain Christmas, with Dolly Parton and Lee Majors. He was a goofball in that...so when I see him play bad guys and jerks (such as in "One Eyed Jack" & this episode) it's always fun! 

The action, wild plot twists, acting jobs, MV colors (they even had the teal & pink with neon lights in a bar & with outside restaurant patio chairs), Crockett's wardrobe in this one (awesome teal jackets, pink shirts, white pants, etc...some of my favorites and I wish I had those clothes!), etc... everything was awesome!!  

Some things I found humorous or interesting...like Crockett’s remark about: “Like scoring bad acid at Woodstock”.   (Note: This has been corrected from what I originally thought Crockett had said.)

Also, despite how much I love & respect the character of Gina...that poor girl had probably the worst of her hairdos in this episode!  Makeup & hair for her in this episode, should have been shot with Crockett’s Bren-10! 

I love this one & can watch it multiple times over & not get tired of it! Originally (back in the-day, when you could officially rate episodes) I meant to vote a 9...but I accidentally hit the 8 instead!  But, if I had it to do over, I’d actually give this a 10!! Another superb episode for Season 2!  

Edited September 15, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[apocalypse]

The second best episode of Season 2. Only "Out Where the Buses don't run" was better.

This is just pure brilliance. Payback theme is amazing, also the Trial and the search theme is one of Hammer's best (the one that plays when they go to Zappa's boat).

The guy who plays Kevin Cates is brilliant... everything is perfect. One of the best episodes of Miami Vice.

[Jack Gretsky]

On 8/25/2020 at 4:58 PM, Jack Gretsky said:

Certainly the best ep of the second half of season 2.  Intriguing story that keeps you guessing and a top-notch cast: Hedaya, Zappa (is the phrase "weasel dust" an in-joke reference to Zappa's album Weasels Ripped My Flesh?), and Beckel.  I kept my guard up re Cates because I'd recently seen Beckel playing corrupt cops in both Jennifer Eight and L.A. Confidential!

My favorite scene was the IA waiting room where Sonny slowly realizes that the random guy reading the magazine is actually an IA agent examining Crockett's behavior under pressure.  It was all a bit surreal, love it. 

It was great hearing Hammer's "Russian Story" cue again here. Bushido is both one of my top episodes (thus my MV handle) and favorite episode music scores. 

My review from last year still stands.  My 3rd best of Season 2 after "Bushido" and "Buses." This one really cooks - like a Season 1 ep.  Graham Beckel is great as Cates; I should've figured him for crooked - he also played a corrupt cop in L.A. Confidential as I mention above.  

I was mistaken about the Hammer music cue though - it's "The Search," originally from "Tale of the Goat," that is a particular favorite of mine. (Certainly "Russian Story" is good too.) 

The songs are pretty good, but most used as underscore - except for X's "Soul Kitchen."  I don't think we've had this style of "speed punk" in Vice before. 

Hedaya and Zappa make for great sleazes.  This is good "anguished Sonny" story that moves fast, has good location work, and keeps one enthralled - not something to be said for every Season 2 episode.  

[Jack Gretsky]

Just a further thought - this episode is sticking with me this evening.  I can't articulate how its atmosphere/ambience feels - this is the sort of thing I take away from the best episodes and the most difficult to write about concretely.  This one really resonates; not just the last scene, but the entire story. 

[fakespyder]

On 5/4/2021 at 2:48 PM, ViceFanMan said:

...Some things I found interesting were Crockett’s remark about: “Like scoring bad acid at Wichita”..

Pretty sure he says Woodstock. I could be wrong as I haven't seen it in a while.

[Dadrian]

On 5/4/2021 at 8:48 PM, ViceFanMan said:

Like scoring bad acid at Wichita

 

28 minutes ago, fakespyder said:

Pretty sure he says Woodstock. I could be wrong as I haven't seen it in a while.

He says “Woodstock”, for sure here (but he does tell Candy he’s from Wichita in Score).  

There were a lot of drugs at Woodstock, so the probability of having a bad “trip”—be it from the odds of how many times you scored and/or the quality of some of the garbage being sold/shared there—was very high (pun-intended). 

Someone please correct me if you interpreted this reference differently. I’m wrong frequently.  

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, fakespyder said:

Pretty sure he says Woodstock. I could be wrong as I haven't seen it in a while.

 

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

 

He says “Woodstock”, for sure here (but he does tell Candy he’s from Wichita in Score).  

There were a lot of drugs at Woodstock, so the probability of having a bad “trip”—be it from the odds of how many times you scored and/or the quality of some of the garbage being sold/shared there—was very high (pun-intended). 

Someone please correct me if you interpreted this reference differently. I’m wrong frequently.  

I was incorrect before...I stand corrected! He definitely did say Woodstock...which makes more sense, as of course that’s the famous drug-orgy gathering of the hippies back in 69. He says it so fast, that I originally thought he said ‘Wichita’...which doesn’t really make sense, other than Don was from there & maybe he knew more than we did—and worked it into the episode as Crockett. Wichita & Salina were mentioned in different episodes, but in this episode it was Woodstock.

Yes, sadly lots of times people put bad or toxic ingredients or additives in drugs. Some people also don’t react well to certain drugs or being “high”...which both usually equal a bad “trip”. But, whatever the case, when you get drugs from tons of strangers (such as Woodstock or druggie parties), the odds of a bad trip are very high!