Episode #39 "French Twist"

[wolfie1996]

13 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Naw. I think he loved the idea of someone like Caroline. Sonny was always one for ideas and ideals. 

I think you're right, Robbie. That's the truth. Even though he'd tried that kind of relationship and even that didn't work out. However much he loved Caroline and his son (who actually he didn't see that  much of once they parted, remember!) he wasn't willing to relinquish what his job gave him. He sacrificed his marriage first. I think it's a Maslow's Pyramid thing. If I remember rightly, in life the bottom part of the pyramid concerns practical things, making sure  you're secure financially, have food and shelter etc etc then it's emotional layers or whatever that you seek to get established but at the top is self realisation.. it's years since my psychology studies but I think that's about right. Many people don't ever reach that self realisation part in their lives, but the lucky ones  do. I did and because of that my life has been satisfying. Sonny's  job was that to him (because of  which, the Freefall ending was  such a mistake.) Caroline vaguely realised this and understood it instinctively  and this is why she decided to go, much as  she loved Sonny (and much as he loved her, as far as he could,) She said"You're one of the players" and she was  absolutely spot on. And people don't change their basic personality.

Edited May 9, 2021 by wolfie1996

[RedDragon86]

Whether it would have worked out or not, still he loved Caroline more than any other woman. Just look at the resentment he shows towards Bob In "Child's Play"

She's like his high-school sweetheart, there was a real connection there.

[wolfie1996]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Whether it would have worked out or not, still he loved Caroline more than any other woman. Just look at the resentment he shows towards Bob In "Child's Play"

She's like his high-school sweetheart, there was a real connection there.

Agreed. Though it doesn't disprove my contention and summary.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Whether it would have worked out or not, still he loved Caroline more than any other woman. Just look at the resentment he shows towards Bob In "Child's Play"

She's like his high-school sweetheart, there was a real connection there.

I think he was more resentful of the “family” atmosphere Bob was trying to create with Caroline, and the fact that Bob was trying to adopt Billy. But, even though yes they had been high school sweethearts, I don’t think Sonny was still in love with Caroline...otherwise he’d of been trying to get her back again. Crockett wanted a family, and family life, again by this time, including his son. But, I don’t think he wanted it with Caroline anymore...that had dissolved & both had moved on. I think they still loved/cared each other, but they weren’t in-love anymore. 

[wolfie1996]

15 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I think he was more resentful of the “family” atmosphere Bob was trying to create with Caroline, and the fact that Bob was trying to adopt Billy. But, even though yes they had been high school sweethearts, I don’t think Sonny was still in love with Caroline...otherwise he’d of been trying to get her back again. Crockett wanted a family, and family life, again by this time, including his son. But, I don’t think he wanted it with Caroline anymore...that had dissolved & both had moved on. I think they still loved/cared each other, but they weren’t in-love anymore. 

Correction...SOMETIMES he thought he wanted a family and family life..but not often enough to create one.

[RedDragon86]

22 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I think he was more resentful of the “family” atmosphere Bob was trying to create with Caroline, and the fact that Bob was trying to adopt Billy. But, even though yes they had been high school sweethearts, I don’t think Sonny was still in love with Caroline...otherwise he’d of been trying to get her back again. Crockett wanted a family, and family life, again by this time, including his son. But, I don’t think he wanted it with Caroline anymore...that had dissolved & both had moved on. I think they still loved/cared each other, but they weren’t in-love anymore. 

I think it was more the fact that Caroline didn't want to be with Sonny anymore, even though she loved him. His high maintenance job and family life didn't work out.

 

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Whether it would have worked out or not, still he loved Caroline more than any other woman. Just look at the resentment he shows towards Bob In "Child's Play"

She's like his high-school sweetheart, there was a real connection there.

I disagree. If you follow the timeline, she would have come into his life after high school. Barbara was his high school sweetheart. Sonny, I think, latched on to Caroline like he later latched on to Caitlin...she was his way to a "normal life," which he would have been looking for after the Marines and Vietnam.

For me, Caroline is like Gina. People tend to see a connection because they want to see one. Which is fine. But I think in both cases the connection was one way: from them to Sonny and not necessarily the reverse. Sonny's resentment toward Bob, as VFM points out, comes more from Bob's attempt to create an actual family. Sonny never liked seeing people "succeed" where he might have "failed," and in my mind this is one of those instances.

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Correction...SOMETIMES he thought he wanted a family and family life..but not often enough to create one.

By the time of the last couple seasons I think he was wanting one...he was realizing what truly was important. But, it wasn’t necessarily with Caroline anymore. That time had passed. I think there’d always be a connection with Caroline as they had been married & had a child together. But, the love was not intimate anymore.

There was a connection with Gina, too...more than his other women/girlfriends. At first it was more about the sex with Crockett...but, they had some kind of connection/attraction that went beyond that. Not in every single episode...but it was there in different ways, in different episodes. 

[wolfie1996]

11 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

By the time of the last couple seasons I think he was wanting one...he was realizing what truly was important. But, it wasn’t necessarily with Caroline anymore. That time had passed. I think there’d always be a connection with Caroline as they had been married & had a child together. But, the love was not intimate anymore.

There was a connection with Gina, too...more than his other women/girlfriends. At first it was more about the sex with Crockett...but, they had some kind of connection/attraction that went beyond that. Not in every single episode...but it was there in different ways, in different episodes. 

I don't think he was. He parted with Tubbs and his final words included NOTHING about settling  down. Maybe he'd realised by then that domesticity wasn't going to be his scene- and he'd never be in a  nine to five day job to facilitate such a scenario.

[ViceFanMan]

Just now, wolfie1996 said:

I don't think he was. He parted with Tubbs and his final words included NOTHING about settling  down. Maybe he'd realised by then that domesticity wasn't going to be his scene- and he'd never be in a  nine to five day job to facilitate such a scenario.

That’s part of the reason I did not like the finale...it was weird, out-of-left-field, left you hanging with some aspects, etc... The way they had them “part” was dumb. Previously, Crockett had been gearing (or trying to gear) more towards a more stable and family-like life. He tried it with Caitlin, but it was so ridiculously rushed that it didn’t work well. But, he was renewing his relationship with his son, and was looking for a “real” relationship.

[vicegirl85]

9 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I think he was more resentful of the “family” atmosphere Bob was trying to create with Caroline, and the fact that Bob was trying to adopt Billy. But, even though yes they had been high school sweethearts, I don’t think Sonny was still in love with Caroline...otherwise he’d of been trying to get her back again. Crockett wanted a family, and family life, again by this time, including his son. But, I don’t think he wanted it with Caroline anymore...that had dissolved & both had moved on. I think they still loved/cared each other, but they weren’t in-love anymore. 

I don't know about the "high-school sweetheart angle."  During the show's run I was under the impression Sonny and Caroline had met in college.  I don't think this was really ever stated within the show, although based on the time frames that make his Vietnam service work, RobbieC is probably closer to the target.

But I do agree Sonny resented the "family" atmosphere Bob was trying to create with Caroline and Billy.  Not sure Sonny was still "in love" with Caroline, but I do think he still regarded her as his.  He had "moved on" because she left him--because she couldn't take the life anymore.  And he acquiesced to her leaving even though they both still loved each other, because he knew she and Billy had been in mortal danger because of his job.  He loved her enough that he didn't want to endanger her or his son.  I don't think he wanted to get back together with her again by Season 4.  But he wasn't ready for her to move forward with her life with someone else.

However, I never saw any real signs that he was ready to commit time and energy to a wife and family until Caitlin.  He didn't spend more time with Billy (that we saw)--he only saw him when Caroline asked him to come, until he brought Billy to meet Caitlin.  With Caitlin, he was trying (not always successfully) to communicate better and to consider someone else's needs besides his own.  He really got a wakeup call when she was murdered by Hackman.  There's not always a "later" when it would suit his needs, to talk and spend time together.

[ViceFanMan]

42 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I don't know about the "high-school sweetheart angle."  During the show's run I was under the impression Sonny and Caroline had met in college.  I don't think this was really ever stated within the show, although based on the time frames that make his Vietnam service work, RobbieC is probably closer to the target.

But I do agree Sonny resented the "family" atmosphere Bob was trying to create with Caroline and Billy.  Not sure Sonny was still "in love" with Caroline, but I do think he still regarded her as his.  He had "moved on" because she left him--because she couldn't take the life anymore.  And he acquiesced to her leaving even though they both still loved each other, because he knew she and Billy had been in mortal danger because of his job.  He loved her enough that he didn't want to endanger her or his son.  I don't think he wanted to get back together with her again by Season 4.  But he wasn't ready for her to move forward with her life with someone else.

However, I never saw any real signs that he was ready to commit time and energy to a wife and family until Caitlin.  He didn't spend more time with Billy (that we saw)--he only saw him when Caroline asked him to come, until he brought Billy to meet Caitlin.  With Caitlin, he was trying (not always successfully) to communicate better and to consider someone else's needs besides his own.  He really got a wakeup call when she was murdered by Hackman.  There's not always a "later" when it would suit his needs, to talk and spend time together.

 I too always thought that Crockett and Caroline met in college, I was only referring to the “high school sweetheart” comment as someone else had stated that—so, I thought maybe they did meet and get together in high school? But, I think they probably did meet in college and that’s where they first got together. 

I think at first, even after they had divorced and parted, that Crockett still did love Caroline. But, I agree he had let her go, along with Billy, because of the danger of the job. However, as the show went on I think both he and Caroline had moved on and the in-love part was done. 

I think Crockett wanted a family life again, later in the show. He didn’t necessarily want to get back with Caroline again, but it bothered him when she and Billy were having this new family life with a new man.  He wanted to spend more time with Billy not only when Caroline asked him, but also some other things that happened in cases that caused him to realize the importance of having a relationship with his son.

As viewers, we did not always get to see every single time Crockett supposedly spent with Billy (we didn’t need to as it didn’t necessarily go along with every plot of every episode), but it was stated in an episode I think that he was having more time with him on a regular basis. Family was becoming more important to him again.

His relationship with & subsequent marriage to Caitlin also showed that yes, he was ready to try and start to have a family life again. However, he dove right into it without really thinking about it or getting to know her. Caitlin as well did the same thing.  Both were good people and wanted to do the right thing, however neither one of them went about it very intelligently...and even before Hackman killed her, it was costing them.

[sdiegolo78]

Not really my cup of tea. This is my least favorite from the first two seasons. I hate Danielle and I'm glad Sonny shot her. Though I would have liked to see Tubbs somehow break-free from gun point and get the upper hand. But the writers wanted Sonny to save the day, since he was the one who slept with her and had to shut her down.

Tubbs did his own antics again, in true NYPD style....was he actually reprimanded by Lt. Castillo for letting the girl slip out from the safe house and get shot at the hospital when he and Switek caught up with her? It seems he was called out all right but EJO mumbled every single line.

The espionage story could have executed a bit better. By the way. The actress who played Danielle is actually from Pennsylvania. She did a good job pulling off that french accent.

I give this a 5/10.

 

 

[sdiegolo78]

On 9/20/2018 at 2:51 PM, ViceFanMan said:

I’ve always viewed MV as a neo-noir show—even if it was not initially intended to be, it ultimately became that. Even some first season episodes had a noir-feel and style...again, even amongst the color and 80s-flash, there was still that “dark” mood, conflict with main characters as well as the guest-stars, and there was not always a happy ending. 

I couldn't have said it better myself. That noir/dark vibe works very well in contrast to the flashy colors (white, pink, green, yellow and blue) that are predominant in the show. This is really what set apart this show from anything else.

[TylerDurden389]

wasn't "Sunshine Noir" a term people gave this show back in the 80s?

[ViceFanMan]

20 minutes ago, TylerDurden389 said:

wasn't "Sunshine Noir" a term people gave this show back in the 80s?

Yes...MV sort of “coined” that phrase. It describes the show perfectly! 

[Jack Gretsky]

We just had John Heard, who was in the movie Cutter's Way, three episodes back; now we have another Cutter's star, Lisa Eichhorn.  So where was Jeff Bridges this season? 

This is still part of the Season 2 "F" lull, but, as always with Vice, there are things to enjoy.  It's kind of fun (if also annoying) to have an innocent, a boisterous teen, involved with our crew.  Naturally enough, she thinks of herself as a Juliet torn from her Romeo rather than an eyewitness in danger of getting killed. Good scene outside the hospital - Cindy thinks it's all a game until the bullets start flying.  Otherwise, a rather dullish and contrived story. 

Even the songs are skimpy.  "Who's Zoomin' Who" ain't even the best song from that album - "Freeway of Love" is! 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Jack Gretsky

[Adrian321]

This episode is horrible........ 2nd worst of S2, and I am not sure if it deserves to be in top 10 worst episodes of the series, as there are even worse; but this one is up there with Free verse from this season. Between 3/10 and 4/10, but more 3/10 though

Boring, bad, silly, boring again......... Why did the producers have to ruin S2's overall beauty with Free verse and this pile of mud......... come on; this looks like if Season 5's bad episodes had a child with Season 1's meh episodes........ and it results into this.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Adrian321
Changed my mind

[ViceFanMan]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:52 PM, ViceFanMan said:

I love this episode...right from the start! It's suspenseful and action-packed with the girl seeing Bandi knifing the drug delivery guy at the hospital--and of course she gets the only photograph. The plot, MV colors, performances, etc...were awesome & the majority of the episode is action-packed—as Bandi comes after the girl, and I like the storyline of (once again) another "naughty" or bad-ugly woman that Crockett gets involved with, lol!  

This is just my opinion, but to me most of Crockett's choices in women left little to be desired--except for Gina!  They should have stuck together...but we can thank the writers for that one. One of my favorite parts of the episode is when Tubbs confronts Danielle about who and what she really was, and says: "I think you're a bad dream, baby! I just wanna wake up and...find you gone!"  Tell her, Tubbs!   Not sure what Crockett saw in this French “ice-box”...she was neither physically or psychologically attractive! 

Also, the young teenage girl Cindy is supposed to be 17 (her and her boyfriend look like they’re 25 )...where were this poor girl’s loser-“butt” parents through all this?? Just wondering?  

Another thing I noticed was when Bandi tries to assassinate Cindy from the roof of the hospital & Switek shoots at him...it seems as after only 2 shots, Stan’s gun/mag is suddenly empty...yet a 3rd shot is “heard”. Whatever the case, I’d hope that Switek had more than 2-3 rounds in his magazine! 

Anyway, I also like this episode because it's the other "main" one that includes the old Blue Waters Hotel. As I've posted before, I love historical old places (even abandoned ones) and I always liked that old place--wishing I could've explored and photographed it before it was torn down. Despite what Season 1’s “The Maze” showed (from what I’ve read in the past, a lot of the destruction & graffiti was done by filming crew for the “Maze” episode)...from what I could find, The Blue Waters Hotel was officially condemned & abandoned only a couple years before “Maze” was filmed (around 1983). So, were the scenes of Bandi’s room in this episode actually filmed in part of the old hotel...or was it a set created for interior scenes? Just curious... 

Also, the scene of the explosion in the Blue Waters (from Bandi’s supposed boobie-trap bomb) seemed to show some old roof or over-hang right above the camera. I’m pretty sure they positioned the camera under the remains of the old diving board in the swimming pool area, to get the upward shot of the explosion on the outside of the side of the building...thus the old roof/over-hang seen in the shot is part of the old diving board base. 

But, even though maybe this wasn't the most memorable or famous episode of Season 2, I definitely thought it was a very "strong" and "supportive" one! I originally gave it a 7...if I could officially change it, it’d be an 8! 

 

My most recent review from May... 

[ViceFanMan]

As I’ve said before, I love this episode! As I’ve also brought up before in different episodes showing it...I like episodes that use the old Blue Waters Hotel (“The Maze” & “Definitely Miami” being a couple others). 

Obviously some scenes in this episode were actually filmed at or in The Blue Waters...but others I wonder if they were also filmed there, or were really sets created on a sound stage? Two scenes in particular make me wonder if they were really at The Blue Waters or not...1 being when Switek & Crockett enter the supposed hallway of The Blue Waters, leading down to Bandi’s room.

It looks real enough, but there is electricity/power, as lights are on. By this time in reality The Blue Waters was abandoned (although not as long as The Maze would have had you believe), so even though in this episode it was supposedly still open as a dive-hotel, would the actual building still have power? 2nd, when entering Bandi’s room there’s a bathroom/shower scene, with the shower running & it shows old pink tile. Was this an old bathroom still in The Blue Waters...or was this a set? 

Other exterior scenes, such as Tubbs stepping out of an old window onto a ledge/walkway & the later explosion from Bandi’s boobytrap-bomb, are obviously at the Blue Waters Hotel. But, even though it’s not important to the plot or episode overall...my own curiosity has always wondered about this, as I love history & wished The Blue Waters could have been saved/restored.   Note: Pictures below, with captions, of a couple of the scenes I’m referring to: 

Exterior shot of the actual old Blue Waters Hotel. It’s hard to see in this shot, but Tubbs is stepping out of an old window onto an old ledge to sneak in from a different direction. 

Tubbs slowly creeping along an old ledge/walkway of The Blue Waters Hotel...making his way down to where Bandi is supposedly staying, as in this episode The Blue Waters is supposedly still operating. In reality it had been abandoned for several years. 

Switek & Crockett entering a hallway of supposedly The Blue Waters Hotel. Power/lights are on...was this really The Blue Waters, or a set?

Another scene of Crockett & Switek cautiously moving down towards Bandi’s room—guns drawn. Was this really The Blue Waters, or a set? 

Supposedly Bandi’s room, bathroom to be exact, in The Blue Waters Hotel. Was this really part of an old room still intact in the old Blue Waters...or was this a set as well?

Edited May 30, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Jack Gretsky]

19 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

As I’ve said before, I love this episode! As I’ve also brought up before in different episodes showing it...I like episodes that use the old Blue Waters Hotel (“The Maze” & “Definitely Miami” being a couple others). 

Obviously some scenes in this episode were actually filmed at or in The Blue Waters...but others I wonder if they were also filmed there, or were really sets created on a sound stage? Two scenes in particular make me wonder if they were really at The Blue Waters or not...1 being when Switek & Crockett enter the supposed hallway of The Blue Waters, leading down to Bandi’s room.

It looks real enough, but there is electricity/power, as lights are on. By this time in reality The Blue Waters was abandoned (although not as long as The Maze would have had you believe), so even though in this episode it was supposedly still open as a dive-hotel, would the actual building still have power? 2nd, when entering Bandi’s room there’s a bathroom/shower scene, with the shower running & it shows old pink tile. Was this an old bathroom still in The Blue Waters...or was this a set? 

Other exterior scenes, such as Tubbs stepping out of an old window onto a ledge/walkway & the later explosion from Bandi’s boobytrap-bomb, are obviously at the Blue Waters Hotel. But, even though it’s not important to the plot or episode overall...my own curiosity has always wondered about this, as I love history & wished The Blue Waters could have been saved/restored.   Note: Pictures below, with captions, of a couple of the scenes I’m referring to: 

Exterior shot of the actual old Blue Waters Hotel. It’s hard to see in this shot, but Tubbs is stepping out of an old window onto an old ledge to sneak in from a different direction. 

Tubbs slowly creeping along an old ledge/walkway of The Blue Waters Hotel...making his way down to where Bandi is supposedly staying, as in this episode The Blue Waters is supposedly still operating. In reality it had been abandoned for several years. 

Switek & Crockett entering a hallway of supposedly The Blue Waters Hotel. Power/lights are on...was this really The Blue Waters, or a set?

Another scene of Crockett & Switek cautiously moving down towards Bandi’s room—guns drawn. Was this really The Blue Waters, or a set? 

Supposedly Bandi’s room, bathroom to be exact, in The Blue Waters Hotel. Was this really part of an old room still intact in the old Blue Waters...or was this a set as well?

Thank you for these pics, VFM.  The blue and orange tints of the last one are so Vice.  Or maybe simply so Miami!

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Jack Gretsky said:

Thank you for these pics, VFM.  The blue and orange tints of the last one are so Vice.  Or maybe simply so Miami!

Both...Miami & Vice, lol!  The pics are off the Blu-ray set—taken by my phone off the TV, lol! 

[dragon48]

Just curious if there were any licensing issues with this episode.  Back when I used to be able to watch seasons 2-5 on Amazon Prime with my Starz Subscription, Starz never made "French Twist" available.  The Amazon menu just listed "The Fix" as episode #18   I was forced to deal with commercials and stream in on nbc.com, which has subsequently pulled all episodes.  

 

[vicegirl85]

I suspect the interior corridor scene (at least) was a set.  Although building codes may have been more lax in the 1920s or whenever the Blue Waters was built, it appears in the picture above to be less than 5 feet wide.  This doesn't seem right to me.

My guess would be that the bathroom shown in the last picture was also either a set, or located elsewhere.  But I have no way of being able to confirm this suspicion.

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said:

I suspect the interior corridor scene (at least) was a set.  Although building codes may have been more lax in the 1920s or whenever the Blue Waters was built, it appears in the picture above to be less than 5 feet wide.  This doesn't seem right to me.

My guess would be that the bathroom shown in the last picture was also either a set, or located elsewhere.  But I have no way of being able to confirm this suspicion.

I'd guess they're both sets, although the corridor could be in the actual building. The toilet in the bathroom scene is certainly NOT vintage by any stretch, and the corridor looks like the standard "seedy apartment complex/hotel" thing you saw in quite a few shows from this era.

I've stayed in some older hotels in other parts of the country (including a couple that date back to the 1890s or so), and the corridors are much narrower than they are now. So that's not definitive. And powering a few lights on a corridor isn't hard, either (generators or batteries). Although it could have been shot on location, I'd suspect they used a set just to make multiple takes easier.