Episode #23 "The Prodigal Son"

[Robbie C.]

11 minutes ago, Glades said:

I have a Dutch Oven. The special thing about it is that you not only put coal under the pot, but also on the lid, which is totally flat, so that the coal stays on it. When cooking, the heat comes from the top and bottom at the same time. (This is different to the pictures in the link.)
The same way Trudy feels pressure from her boyfriend and her colleagues/duty, I think.

 

Heat coming in from all sides. And how she survived it and came out stronger. It loses something in the US because these days most people think of a dutch oven as a larger pot you can either use on the stovetop or in the oven. This: instead of  this.

[Dadrian]

Shame all this Dutch oven talk isn’t in that episode thread.  

[Robbie C.]

6 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Shame all this Dutch oven talk isn’t in that episode thread.  

Maybe one of the mods can move it...

[vicegirl85]

8 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

(snipped) I did rather like Margaret...if for no other reason than it shows Sonny's capacity for falling for what he believes are 'damaged' women (something we see over and over with him). Valerie...well...we also get to see Tubbs' obsession with things that are done and buried (a reverse Crockett and Gina...sorry to all the C-G fans out there).(snipped)

I agreed with a lot of your comment, especially re:  how few connections Tubbs seems to have in NYC!  I also agree Sonny had a tendency to fall for "damaged" women (although I don't believe he perceived them as damaged--at least not to start off with ).  However, I still maintain that there was a deep feeling between Sonny and Gina that was mutual.  I believe Sonny closed himself to a commitment to Gina, probably because he saw himself as damaged and unworthy.  He didn't want to screw up her life the way he believed he'd screwed up Caroline's.  I feel like Gina sensed that but I still think that up until he announced his forthcoming marriage to Caitlin, she kept hoping for more from him.  Once he and Caitlin married, the feelings didn't stop, but she would no longer allow herself to act on them.

I didn't dislike Caitlin, and I like what you (and maybe Bren 10) have said about Caitlin living a kind of undercover life or second identity as a performer.  That was something that was a bond between them.  But I still feel that Sonny and Gina had real, unexplored potential.

I don't think they were toxic to each other, although I don't necessarily think they would have held together over the long term.

[jpaul1]

i see Valerie as a tired cop. after the death of her sister, and all the s.. she had to go though meanwhile as a cop, she's just tired, and going into (a bad) depression. i like the deepness it gives to the character. this is how i see it

i don't find Tubbs to be lost in NY. a new gang has taken control over the streets, and is scaring everyone. we don't know much about Tubbs Miami proto history. we don't know where he was working, in which department..

Edited June 16, 2019 by jpm1

[Robbie C.]

23 minutes ago, jpm1 said:

i see Valerie as a tired cop. after the death of her sister, and all the s.. she had to go though meanwhile as a cop, she's just tired, and going into (a bad) depression. i like the deepness it gives to the character. this is how i see it

i don't find Tubbs to be lost in NY. a new gang has taken control over the streets, and is scaring everyone. we don't know much about Tubbs Miami proto history. we don't know where he was working, in which department..

Actually we do. Tubbs was Armed Robbery in the Bronx. His brother was a decorated narcotics detective. That's all introduced in the pilot. He'd have connections on NYPD, at least through people who knew his brother. He'd be more wired in than we're shown. And like I said, I view Valerie and Tubbs as a reverse Crockett and Gina.

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, jpm1 said:

i see Valerie as a tired cop. after the death of her sister, and all the s.. she had to go though meanwhile as a cop, she's just tired, and going into (a bad) depression. i like the deepness it gives to the character. this is how i see it

i don't find Tubbs to be lost in NY. a new gang has taken control over the streets, and is scaring everyone. we don't know much about Tubbs Miami proto history. we don't know where he was working, in which department..

 

4 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Actually we do. Tubbs was Armed Robbery in the Bronx. His brother was a decorated narcotics detective. That's all introduced in the pilot. He'd have connections on NYPD, at least through people who knew his brother. He'd be more wired in than we're shown. And like I said, I view Valerie and Tubbs as a reverse Crockett and Gina.

I do agree that Valerie was “tired” and burnt out...she had gone through all the horrific stuff with her sister, and being used and taken advantage of by the NYPD. However, even before her sister was killed, she was using and taking advantage of Tubbs and whoever else she wanted to, to get what she wanted. She wasn’t “evil” or malicious...but ultimately she was still a user and could not commit to a true or serious relationship. 

I’m sorry, but Tubbs and Valerie, & Crockett and Gina are no where near the same types of relationships. Regardless of whether you like one, or the other, or both “couples”—or whatever pros/cons they had, they were totally different kinds of situations and/or relationships. Tubbs and Valerie were toxic and destructive for each other, whereas Crockett and Gina were caring and supportive for the other. The different couples and/or relationships are not reverses or “copies” of each other...they’re not comparable to each other.

As I said before, I didn’t really care for Prodigal Son. The New York connections Tubbs should have had or could utilize were not there—he might as well been a “newbie”-tourist like Crockett. Both C&T did and/or acted really stupid, and did dangerous and ridiculous things they normally would not do, and the whole thing was kind of weird. Definitely not worthy of a 2hr episode, let alone a season premiere! It should have been just a regular 1hr “filler”, and other episodes that season could have been a way better premiere. 

Edited June 16, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[Yarn Hammer]

For me this is where it all came together. The writing, the music, the acting, the character progression (especially Crockett, Tubbs & Valerie), the other characters (Penn especially), the story and arc, the music (my god, the music), the stunt work, the humour, the desperation, and the cooolness. MV firing on all cylinders on this one. 

[Matt5]

“Lombard” done next up this one - which I can score easily 10/10 before I review again, the best.

[mjcmmv]

On 6/15/2019 at 9:16 PM, jpm1 said:

i see Valerie as a tired cop. after the death of her sister, and all the s.. she had to go though meanwhile as a cop, she's just tired, and going into (a bad) depression. i like the deepness it gives to the character. this is how i see it

 

This is a good explanation for this character's behavior! And, if it's how Pam Grier interpreted the role, I have a whole new respect for her acting. 

[jpaul1]

for me the simple fact that she goes to bed with the mobster she's supposed to investigate on, shows she's going through a pretty bad depression

[jpaul1]

On 7/4/2019 at 5:07 AM, Yarn Hammer said:

For me this is where it all came together. The writing, the music, the acting, the character progression (especially Crockett, Tubbs & Valerie), the other characters (Penn especially), the story and arc, the music (my god, the music), the stunt work, the humour, the desperation, and the cooolness. MV firing on all cylinders on this one. 

yeah i have to agree about the music. i was just listening to you belong to the city, while coming back from the river at dusk today on my mountain bike. funny enough, even if it was in a French very rural area, i had great time listeining to the track

Edited August 3, 2019 by jpm1

[mjcmmv]

6 minutes ago, jpm1 said:

for me the simple fact that she goes to bed with the mobster she's supposed to investigate on, shows she's going through a pretty bad depression

Just like Sonny did when he lost Caitlin. Seems to be a common problem with undercover cops who stay in the business too long!

Edited August 2, 2019 by mjcmmv

[Matt5]

On 8/2/2019 at 10:27 PM, mjcmmv said:

This is a good explanation for this character's behavior! And, if it's how Pam Grier interpreted the role, I have a whole new respect for her acting. 

Yes she played this one down not smiling much and seeming affected by her work of course she was also affected by the recent loss of her sister in Miami.

[mjcmmv]

Just now, Matt5 said:

Yes she played this one down not smiling much and seeming affected by her work of course she was also affected by the recent loss of her sister in Miami.

True. Valerie never seemed to bounce back after that. Pam made the depression very convincing.

The only thing I didn't like about this character was the way she used Tubbs. He was crazy about her and she just strung him along. Pam played that part well, too! 

[Matt5]

13 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

True. Valerie never seemed to bounce back after that. Pam made the depression very convincing.

The only thing I didn't like about this character was the way she used Tubbs. He was crazy about her and she just strung him along. Pam played that part well, too! 

Yes very true - even in "Too Much Too Late " at the end of the Series she played it downtrodden and low key.

[Robbie C.]

I guess my complaint was never really about Pam. It was more the character herself. Any time Valerie showed up I cringed. Tubbs deserved better.

[vicegirl85]

Agree--Pam did a great job of playing the character, but Valerie was no good for Tubbs.  He couldn't see it, so at some point maybe there was really something there on her part.  Sadly in the end I think he finally realized she had nothing to give him, but was willing to take whatever he would give. 

[Matt5]

On 8/4/2019 at 5:12 PM, vicegirl85 said:

Agree--Pam did a great job of playing the character, but Valerie was no good for Tubbs.  He couldn't see it, so at some point maybe there was really something there on her part.  Sadly in the end I think he finally realized she had nothing to give him, but was willing to take whatever he would give. 

Yes I agree she had nothing to give him. He deserved better.

[jpaul1]

i think it was part of the improvisation. the series was like a boat sailing freely. maybe in the director's mind, she could eventually have been saved by Tubbs, then maybe be part of the Vice squad, who knows. in her first appearance in her sister episode, she was neutral. in New york she started to loose balance

[Tczar]

Definitely a great episode! One of the best in the series, and what a way to open up the second season! I love most things New York, especially films and television series that are filmed there, I have a strong affinity for the city, and seeing Crockett and Tubbs run amok in NY makes for great viewing. This episode also features arguably my favourite sequence in the whole series... Crockett packing up to return to Miami and making his way to the airport while the suspense starts to linger with Tubbs... will he or won't he return to Miami (of course we knew that he would, it's hard to have a new season minus one of the main characters, ha ha), but that brief suspense is subtly intense, and then to see Tubbs running through the airport to catch the plane, it makes for a powerful moment, powerful and happy, topped off by Crockett greeting Tubbs at the counter. We know then that these two guys have become real friends and real partners, and value each other and have each other's backs. And that sequence being soundtracked by Phil Collins' 'Take Me Home' only makes it's all the more brilliant. And of course once Crockett and Tubbs do get back to Miami, it's great to see that Gina has recovered too.

One thing too about this episode is that it reinforces the fact that Sonny has a terrible judgement when it comes women for the most part. Not a fan of Margaret's character, but she is there to serve her purpose. And speaking of female guest stars, one name... Pam Grier   brilliant as always, and badass when she goes into "Foxy Brown mode" at the meet with the Revillas where she basically saves the day.

And another much deserved mention goes to Sonny walking the NY streets at night accompanied by Glenn Frey's 'You Belong to the City'. That right there is ultra cool, and that whole scene could basically define the 80s as a whole, magnificent.

 

Overall I found the episode to be well written, and the plot is more than worthy of any feature film. The only scene that could be seen as being a little over the top is Sonny shooting down the helicopter, ha ha, but it is television, so a suspension of disbelief is naturally needed, and hey, if anyone is going to shoot down a helicopter, then you can best believe that it's gonna be James "Sonny" Crockett 

 

I rate this episode a solid 9.5/10

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Tczar

[Adrian321]

Well....... I actually love The Prodigal Son........ 9th favourite episode for me, and a clean 10/10, the 2nd best episode from S2, only behind Definitely Miami (for obvious reasons, duh)

Had a lot of stuff packed in it:

The most music EVER used in a MV episode (14 songs)

Trips outside Miami (one of the few times in the entire series)

A double lenght episode

A lot of action (especially that WTC shootout)

Fresh intro

Nice New York views 

Gina being shot really boosts the episode's strenght

We got some goregeous sunny scenes, on that yacht

Good lines and a bit of comic relief

Classic MV elements like nightclubs, busts,etc

We see Valerie again

That banker scene is also good

Nice ending

 

And I don't really mind that the filthy "Daytona" was pretty much absent, and there wasn't so much style and Miami. The rest of S2 really made up for that, and also, it's good to sometimes leave Miami. "Smuggler's blues" is a "community favourite" and "Calderone's demise" also, AND, what do these 3 episodes have in common ? They take place outside Miami for a good part. I also love Freefall, and it also takes place a lot outside Miami.

 

 

[wolfie1996]

On 4/4/2009 at 11:43 AM, Papa Legba said:

With Margaret we see that whole "Spy who falls in love with the mark" cliche that so often happens in films and television. I believe the reason why this theme is so common is because it emphasises how much the spy has fallen in love with their mark, (making the drama more emphatic), when you consider that all the time the spy is probably trying to fight their true feelings and maintain the act. I also thinks it makes the emotional dialogue more interesting. Once again you see Crockett get his heart broken by the wrong woman.

The interesting thing about Margaret is that she takes the sort of masculine role with Crockett (as opposed to all his other female conquests). She's the one giving him the eye when they first meet, then claims the taxi under his nose and ends up pulling him into it for a kiss and you only have to look at a dishevelled Crockett standing artistically framed in the archway by the  bed , looking very fetching and implying they'd enjoyed a rough session (after which Margaret has sneaked way to make a secret phone call) see that for once he's been cast in the "feminine " role! Unusual and maybe even unique for him though he seems to enjoy it! It was  certainly different and a new slant on his tastes...

[Dadrian]

Well said, @wolfie1996! This is what I liked about her. 

[wolfie1996]

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by wolfie1996
repeated this post later