Episode #23 "The Prodigal Son"

[RedDragon86]

I don't think having contacts or ex cops would have helped them anyway as the Revilla's are protected by corrupt politicians and big bankers. Even part of the NYPD is in J.B. Johnston pocket.

"This city's about power, man. I know its rhythms, and I can hear the power
coming down on us"
 

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

You must not likes Smuggler's Blue's then because who was their back up or numerous contacts out there in Colombia? 

Hypothetically what if the Revilla's were based in LA, would that be a no go? I mean how would that have worked.

 

Not the same thing...both Crockett and Tubbs were going into totally unknown territory in “Smugglers”. They didn’t know anyone there to contact. In “Prodigal” Tubbs DID know people and was from NY...so he definitely should have had other people to at least attempt to check with. “Smugglers Blues” was superb compared to “Prodigal Son”... “Prodigal” could have been much better, but they didn’t go about it very well. 

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

I don't think having contacts or ex cops would have helped them anyway as the Revilla's are protected by corrupt politicians and big bankers. Even part of the NYPD is in J.B. Johnston pocket.

"This city's about power, man. I know its rhythms, and I can hear the power
coming down on us"
 

Ultimately other contacts or cops might not have helped...but Tubbs didn’t know how corrupt they were at first. He initially should have checked with them. Also, I don’t think every cop on the force was tied into the Revillas. But they might have been able to warn Tubbs how corrupt a lot of the cops & politicians were. Give him a heads-up.

[RedDragon86]

8 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Not the same thing...both Crockett and Tubbs were going into totally unknown territory in “Smugglers”. They didn’t know anyone there to contact. In “Prodigal” Tubbs DID know people and was from NY...so he definitely should have had other people to at least attempt to check with. “Smugglers Blues” was superb compared to “Prodigal Son”... “Prodigal” could have been much better, but they didn’t go about it very well. 

Sorry but so what if Tubbs knew people NYC, the whole premise was political.

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Sorry but so what if Tubbs knew people NYC, the whole premise was political.

 

Whether political or otherwise doesn’t matter, and is not really the point. If you’re going into an area or to a location where you know or have experience in...you make contact with & check with people you know and/or have dealt with before—to see what the “temperature” is currently (and preferably not a whack-job, toxic past girlfriend ). The fact that Tubbs didn’t do this was ridiculous & didn’t seem like him or his character. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[RedDragon86]

Politics is at the heart of the episode, they are pulling all the strings.

I just don't see how his former cop buddies would help, realistically guys like Rolando Jordan would have been warned not to talk to Tubbs anyway. Pearson would have put the block on it. To get closer to the Ravilla's you need to talk to people on the street and they had a strong connection with Borges. 

In many ways it's like "Smugglers Blues". They have a good cover as drug dealers and Blade connects them with Borges just like how they contact Tucker Smith who sends them to Jimmy Cole. 

The after that they are on their own, Columbia was more dangerous imo.

Edited June 15, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Politics is at the heart of the episode, they are pulling all the strings.

I just don't see how his former cop buddies would help, realistically guys like Rolando Jordan would have been warned not to talk to Tubbs anyway. Pearson would have put the block on it. To get closer to the Ravilla's you need to talk to people on the street and they had a strong connection with Borges. 

In many ways it's like "Smugglers Blues". They have a good cover as drug dealers and Blade connects them with Borges just like how they contact Tucker Smith who sends them to Jimmy Cole. 

The after that they are on their own, Columbia was more dangerous imo.

Columbia was probably more dangerous in “Smuggler’s”...but again they didn’t know anyone there or have anyone they could contact...just Jimmy Cole to fly them there, and it was outside the U.S. In NY, Tubbs was from there...there would be people they could try to utilize and touch base with. It was a different situation with “Smuggler’s”. 

Politics & corruption, tied in with drugs, was the heart of the plot with “Prodigal”...but again, that really isn’t the point. Regardless of your case or what it entails, if you’re going into an area or location you’re familiar with and/or would know people there to help, you utilize them!   Even if they turned out corrupt too, at first Tubbs didn’t know that. He’d still want to get with them to try and find out more helpful info. 

But, the way they had Tubbs act & operate in NY...it was almost like he’d never been there before either & he was just as much a tourist as Crockett. Both also seemed to “magically” forget how to operate as experienced Vice cops undercover, and both made some really dumb choices that were out-of-character and seemed ridiculous. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Christine]

I read through all the arguments and I have to say that I didn't think about a lot of it while watching the episode. That's why I watched it again.
When it comes to two cops flying to NY, you can almost read "Hooray, Valerie, here I come!" on Tubbs' forehead.
I never understood what he saw in her. Already in "Rites of passage" they talked about the fact that they didn't part on the best of terms. Nevertheless, Tubbs flew to her, even took unpaid leave (The Home Invaders). 
By that time she must have been working undercover, but he didn't notice.
Okay, back to "Prodigal Son": he should have tried to contact one or the other old friend/colleague, but all we were shown was that he kept trying to find Valerie. I almost got the feeling he was a little obsessed with this idea.
Looking at it closely, the plot has a lot of holes and certainly much more could have been gotten out of the story.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Christine said:

I read through all the arguments and I have to say that I didn't think about a lot of it while watching the episode. That's why I watched it again.
When it comes to two cops flying to NY, you can almost read "Hooray, Valerie, here I come!" on Tubbs' forehead.
I never understood what he saw in her. Already in "Rites of passage" they talked about the fact that they didn't part on the best of terms. Nevertheless, Tubbs flew to her, even took unpaid leave (The Home Invaders). 
By that time she must have been working undercover, but he didn't notice.
Okay, back to "Prodigal Son": he should have tried to contact one or the other old friend/colleague, but all we were shown was that he kept trying to find Valerie. I almost got the feeling he was a little obsessed with this idea.
Looking at it closely, the plot has a lot of holes and certainly much more could have been gotten out of the story.

Agreed...his obsession with Val was always Tubbs’ downfall.  But, yes the plot was disjointed and could have been carried out better. There are “holes” and out-of-character moments/choices that make them seem ridiculous. 

[RedDragon86]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

Columbia was probably more dangerous in “Smuggler’s”...but again they didn’t know anyone there or have anyone they could contact...just Jimmy Cole to fly them there, and it was outside the U.S. In NY, Tubbs was from there...there would be people they could try to utilize and touch base with. It was a different situation with “Smuggler’s”. 

Politics & corruption, tied in with drugs, was the heart of the plot with “Prodigal”...but again, that really isn’t the point. Regardless of your case or what it entails, if you’re going into an area or location you’re familiar with and/or would know people there to help, you utilize them!   Even if they turned out corrupt too, at first Tubbs didn’t know that. He’d still want to get with them to try and find out more helpful info. 

But, the way they had Tubbs act & operate in NY...it was almost like he’d never been there before either & he was just as much a tourist as Crockett. Both also seemed to “magically” forget how to operate as experienced Vice cops undercover, and both made some really dumb choices that were out-of-character and seemed ridiculous. 

Well they did go to the NYPD to check in with Lieutenant Pearson. Castillo and Burr obviously thought that the NYPD would be cooperated when they got there. 

 

 

. 

[ViceFanMan]

7 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

Well they did go to the NYPD to check in with Lieutenant Pearson. Castillo and Burr obviously thought that the NYPD would be cooperated when they got there. 

 

 

. 

This is true...they had an initial check in set up with the NYPD. It was there that Crockett & Tubbs started to realize that something was “off”. But, regardless of who they checked in with at first, Tubbs should have already planned to try and contact or get in touch with other cops he’d known or been friends with before...or even street contacts/informants he’d known or used. 

I  don’t think every single cop on the force in NY was in with the Revillas...but, even if some of the ones Tubbs would’ve known ended up being corrupt too, he didn’t know that at first. He should’ve still try to contact them to get information needed. 

[vicegirl85]

4 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

(snipped) But, regardless of who they checked in with at first, Tubbs should have already planned to try and contact or get in touch with other cops he’d known or been friends with before...or even street contacts/informants he’d known or used. 

I  don’t think every single cop on the force in NY was in with the Revillas...but, even if some of the ones Tubbs would’ve known ended up being corrupt too, he didn’t know that at first. He should’ve still try to contact them to get information needed. 

Just to be the devil's advocate, if Tubbs had continued contacting other cops he knew in his previous (NY) life, and attempting to get information, I believe that might well have drawn more attention from the Revillas, even if all of those he contacted weren't corrupt.  The more people who knew he was asking questions, the more chances of someone putting the pieces together and eliminating him before he and Crockett could put their case together.

I agree, there were holes in the plot and some things really stretched credibility to an extreme.  But the fact that once his main contact kind of stonewalled him, and therefore he and Crockett decided to strike out on their own, doesn't strike me as totally ridiculous.  

[ViceFanMan]

8 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Just to be the devil's advocate, if Tubbs had continued contacting other cops he knew in his previous (NY) life, and attempting to get information, I believe that might well have drawn more attention from the Revillas, even if all of those he contacted weren't corrupt.  The more people who knew he was asking questions, the more chances of someone putting the pieces together and eliminating him before he and Crockett could put their case together.

I agree, there were holes in the plot and some things really stretched credibility to an extreme.  But the fact that once his main contact kind of stonewalled him, and therefore he and Crockett decided to strike out on their own, doesn't strike me as totally ridiculous.  

 This is true to an extent, but when Crockett and Tubbs first showed up to NY they didn’t realize or know how corrupt the police department was with the Revillas. Before they realized they had no local backup, I’d think Tubbs would at least attempt to get in touch with some former cop friends or street contacts for local info on the Revillas. 

However, I don’t think the entire NYPD was in cahoots with the Revillas...I’d think there’d be someone and/or a few friends that Tubbs would attempt to get in contact with, and at least try to find out how “deep” the department, as a whole, was in the Revillas’ pocket. 

It was just the way they put everything together, and how they had Crockett & Tubbs act & operate in NY that was out-of-character, disorganized/disjointed, and even somewhat ridiculous. By no means is “Prodigal” a bad or terrible episode...it’s good with some aspects (music, colors, action). But, it didn’t live up to its initial hype and advertising...it could have been done better. It’s a decent episode, but not worthy of a special 2hr premiere. 

[Jack Gretsky]

Another two-part season opener.  It ranges all over the place and is not completely compelling, but it's definitely engrossing. A good deal is shot on location in New York and several offbeat NY actors appear. (including Charles Ludlam and Everett Quinton of The Ridiculous Theatrical Company, Zoe Tamerlis [muse of sometime Miami Vice director Abel Ferrara] and Julian Beck, founder of the experimental Living Theatre - he died right before this episode aired, but this appearance plus Poltergeist II, which premiered the following year, are probably his most well-known screen roles.) Miguel Pinero is back, but looking quite unrecognizable from his dashing Calderone. 

I found Margaret to be really obnoxious and not all that enchanting.  Crockett sure knows how not to pick 'em.  The Tubbs/Valerie subplot is more interesting. 

With a record 14 songs, there are certainly some good ones here - favorites of mine are Glenn Frey's written-for-the-show "You Belong to the City," Fashion's psychedelic funk "Whitestuff," Phil Collins' "Take Me Home" and, most of all, Bryan Ferry's lush "Windswept." There are also some classic songs like "Caribbean Queen" and "Pride (In the Name of Love)" practically tossed away in the background mix.  

Edited September 9, 2021 by Jack Gretsky

[Jack Gretsky]

On 9/6/2018 at 4:48 AM, Dadrian said:

Google the biblical reference. It’s about Tubbs going home. Also parallels with the pilot title being a biblical reference. 

To put on my pompous scholar hat for a second, the biblical "prodigal son" is a Christ allegory about turning one's back on the sins of the world and being forgiven when sincerely seeking redemption.  I'm not sure how that applies to this episode, unless we can find some reason?  

[Dadrian]

22 minutes ago, Jack Gretsky said:

To put on my pompous scholar hat for a second, the biblical "prodigal son" is a Christ allegory about turning one's back on the sins of the world and being forgiven when sincerely seeking redemption.  I'm not sure how that applies to this episode, unless we can find some reason?  

I think it’s simply about returning “home”.

[ViceFanMan]

40 minutes ago, Jack Gretsky said:

To put on my pompous scholar hat for a second, the biblical "prodigal son" is a Christ allegory about turning one's back on the sins of the world and being forgiven when sincerely seeking redemption.  I'm not sure how that applies to this episode, unless we can find some reason?  

I am a strong Christian, and yes...the Prodigal Son is an analogy story Jesus told as an example of one realizing their sins and turning back to God...asking for forgiveness & genuinely seeking redemption. I truly love MV and its characters...but, although they had principles & standards, from a ‘moral’ standpoint I’m not sure most could spell the word.  However, this is the case for most TV shows from the 70s on.  But, no one is perfect.  

I also don’t really know what the title really has to do with the episode itself (other than Tubbs making a return visit to NYC)? Despite the initial huge hype and advertising for this one...I’m actually not a huge fan. It was rather disjointed, disorganized, and out-of-character for both Crockett & Tubbs. There were many other more worthy episodes that should & could have been used as the 2hr season premiere. But, that’s just me.  

Edited August 31, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Dadrian]

Just like the pilot title: it’s an allusion guys. Not a parallel. 

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Just like the pilot title: it’s an allusion guys. Not a parallel. 

And this could very well be true...but they would be ‘allusions’ to the title-names only, as the episodes don’t really parallel or have much to do with the Biblical stories the titles come from at all. 

[Dadrian]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

And this could very well be true...but they would be ‘allusions’ to the title-names only, as the episodes don’t really parallel or have much to do with the Biblical stories the titles come from at all. 

Exactly. 

This is as deep as it goes:

”Brother’s Keeper”: “avenging my brother’s death” (not “passing the buck on knowing my brother’s whereabouts”). 

“Prodigal Son”: “returning home” (not “arising and going to my father’s house”). 

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Dadrian said:

Exactly. 

This is as deep as it goes:

”Brother’s Keeper”: “avenging my brother’s death” (not “passing the buck on knowing my brother’s whereabouts”). 

“Prodigal Son”: “returning home” (not “arising and going to my father’s house”). 

I agree...that was about as “deep” as those went.  But, I’m not sure why they chose those titles for the episodes, as they didn’t really tie-in with the ideas or points of the original events or stories they originated from?

Also...I’m not sure “Brother’s Keeper” was originally the Pilot’s title or not? Perhaps it was an original working-script title? But, when the Pilot originally aired in 1984, I believe it was just aired as “Miami Vice”. The “Brother’s Keeper” title seemed to be added later for syndication/reruns & when it was split into 2 parts for the reruns. 

[Dadrian]

6 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Also...I’m not sure “Brother’s Keeper” was originally the Pilot’s title or not? Perhaps it was an original working-script title?

I believe the original script title was “Gold Coast”. 

[Dadrian]

If you think about it, both allusions are the opposite of what happens in the episodes. Probably not “intentional”, but:

Brother’s Keeper: Tubbs loved his brother (not hated)

Prodigal Son: Tubbs was ill-received at home (not well-received). 

@Robbie C. we’re talking about a book here (THE book  ). Any thoughts?

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Dadrian said:

I believe the original script title was “Gold Coast”. 

 

2 hours ago, Dadrian said:

If you think about it, both allusions are the opposite of what happens in the episodes. Probably not “intentional”, but:

Brother’s Keeper: Tubbs loved his brother (not hated)

Prodigal Son: Tubbs was ill-received at home (not well-received).

The original title of the show was “Gold Coast”, yes...I’ve read before that some early advertising for it still was referring to the show as that, before they officially changed it to “Miami Vice”. As for the title of the Pilot, I don’t think there was one...I think they just called it MV. I’m still wondering if the “Brother’s Keeper” title was created later, when they split it into 2 parts for syndication & reruns.

As for ‘opposite allusions’ you’re probably right. But, as for MV and the episodes, they were still a “stretch” for the titles used.  

[Robbie C.]

Actually when you see the reference to the prodigal son returning the connotations are not always positive. This is especially true when you see it in Westerns, and American police shows are in many ways linked to Westerns and continuations of some of those themes. You could almost take Tubbs' return to New York as the gunslinging son/brother returning to the place of his youth and leaving his mark.

The pilot was originally called Miami Vice (per Yerkovich's draft script), but the title Brother's Keeper has a number of levels that, I think, work. Both Sonny and Rico failed as keepers of their brothers (Rico for his literal brother and Sonny for his figurative brother in Eddie and failed in turn by another figurative brother in Wheeler), but in the end they have to keep each other when they become partners.

I don't consider either title a stretch, honestly. I think they're just a reminder of the various levels of Vice.