Episode 100- To have and to hold (aka Second Chance)

[daytona365]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:30 PM, Tom said:

ATTACK IN RESTAURANT: "NEW" LOCATION FOUND / OLD LOCATION ASSUMPTION WAS WRONG

@airtommy@miamijimf@C Glide

You can call me crazy, but today it flashed me that that the attack in "Silvio´s" (exterior in LA) restaurant that we always thought was filmed inside the Salero at South Miami Ave was indeed the good old Carlyle at 1250 Ocean Drive!

Apart fromthe fact that they filmed a scene with Castillo and Guerreo in this episode on the Carlyle porch: many small details match: the round spotlight ceiling, the red neon strings, the red shell shaped chairs, the windows, the distinctively shaped mirror on the wall, the floor and .... we can even see Ocean Drive and part of the Carlyle typical fence pattern outside the window. The best comparison we have with Back in the world as it had many interior Carlyle scenes. See below!

Unbelievable that I never noticed that before.  But they made it very difficult to see, as thez used lots of fast cuts in this shooting scene. The ceiling is pretty much the same today, but the stage where the piano was is gone. See last picture for the current look.

So,now I am properly warmed up for finding the Ballard house ! 

As always: click to enlarge!

 

 

nice work, dude! Nobody does it better

[Tom]

Another very similar colonial revival home incl bay windows designed by Maurice Fatio at 221 Monterey Rd in Palm Beach.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/221-Monterey-Rd_Palm-Beach_FL_33480_M67232-94212

[Tom]

plenty of similar colonial revival houses with bay windows in Palm Beach. This one is in the same area, 210 Sanford Ave.

 

[airtommy]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:30 PM, Tom said:

ATTACK IN RESTAURANT: "NEW" LOCATION FOUND / OLD LOCATION ASSUMPTION WAS WRONG

@airtommy@miamijimf@C Glide

You can call me crazy, but today it flashed me that that the attack in "Silvio´s" (exterior in LA) restaurant that we always thought was filmed inside the Salero at South Miami Ave was indeed the good old Carlyle at 1250 Ocean Drive!

Apart fromthe fact that they filmed a scene with Castillo and Guerreo in this episode on the Carlyle porch: many small details match: the round spotlight ceiling, the red neon strings, the red shell shaped chairs, the windows, the distinctively shaped mirror on the wall, the floor and .... we can even see Ocean Drive and part of the Carlyle typical fence pattern outside the window. The best comparison we have with Back in the world as it had many interior Carlyle scenes. See below!

Unbelievable that I never noticed that before.  But they made it very difficult to see, as thez used lots of fast cuts in this shooting scene. The ceiling is pretty much the same today, but the stage where the piano was is gone. See last picture for the current look.

So,now I am properly warmed up for finding the Ballard house ! 

As always: click to enlarge!

 

 

Great find!  You found an incredible number of matching details that are not obvious at first glance.

This location explains why I was confused about the elevation.  I thought it was maybe 2nd floor *, but I also thought it seemed too low for that.  The Carlyle ground floor is a few steps up from Ocean Drive.

* American 2nd floor = European 1st floor = the first level above ground floor

[Tom]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb airtommy:

Great find!  You found an incredible number of matching details that are not obvious at first glance.

This location explains why I was confused about the elevation.  I thought it was maybe 2nd floor *, but I also thought it seemed too low for that.  The Carlyle ground floor is a few steps up from Ocean Drive.

* American 2nd floor = European 1st floor = the first level above ground floor

I also could not believe that I overlooked all these details all these years. The clincher was the scene with Castillo and Guerreo on the porch that made me suspicious as the only scene filmed at the Carlyle and then I dissected the Carlyle interior scenes in BITW accordingly.

[Tom]

@daytona365another new idea to find the Ballard house.

As it is colonial revival style (only built after 1929 and mostly between 1930-40) I started to focus on those areas that were already populated at this time and where construction was focused on. See this two old city maps (1940-45) respectively. They give a good indication of areas where to look. All areas beyond that (too much inland and off-beat) -and these are a lot, especially in North Miami and west/northwest of it - can be ruled out.

https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/greatermiami-newscompany-1945

Edited October 31, 2021 by Tom

[daytona365]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:04 PM, Tom said:

@daytona365another new idea to find the Ballard house.

As it is colonial revival style (only built after 1929 and mostly between 1930-40) I started to focus on those areas that were already populated at this time and where construction was focused on. See this two old city maps (1940-45) respectively. They give a good indication of areas where to look. All areas beyond that (too much inland and off-beat) -and these are a lot, especially in North Miami and west/northwest of it - can be ruled out.

yeah, this will certainly help to narrow down the search perimeter. Here's a better resolution:

Edited November 1, 2021 by daytona365

[airtommy]

This was posted by Crockettt and Tom in another thread, I'm just bringing it here.

The dark red cloth chairs in the shooting scene match up perfectly with this 1989 photo of the Carlyle:

 

[Tom]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb airtommy:

This was posted by Crockettt and Tom in another thread, I'm just bringing it here

 

I also thought about re-posting that picture over here for the same reason, but forgot. Thanks for stepping in! 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

LOCATION CONFIRMED AND EXACT SPOT FOUND: THE CEMETERY

After long playing around with puzzle pieces and checking similar cemeteries, I am able to confirm now the cemetery and the exact spot where it was filmed there. We always suspected Woodlawn North Cemetery at 3260 SW 8 Street (Calle Ocho) due to abundance of high white statues, but were never able to confirm. They filmed it in the southern part filming south. The cars we see running in parallel to the cemetery are running on SW 16 Street westbound. Everything matches. The small street inside the cemetery running in parallel to the street outside, the small intersection where the small street divides at a small green island.

Due to the same trees (Unique branch pattern) and crosses/statues/vases, I can confirm the filming location exactly down to the exact spot, for the scene with Maria mourning and the scene where Tubbs and Ramon take a walk with Ramonßs limo slowly driving behind them. They walk by a big cross with a multistep foundation, a white statue, a tree and behind the tree is a statue with 2 vases on each side. The latter statue has been removed, everything else is there and looks the same as in December 1988. Just the trees are bit bigger, but the unique branch pattern and the unique sequence of background items nail this 100%. Sorry my pics are shooting in the opposite direction than the camera in the episode was, but we are lucky at all that there is partial Google street view within the cemetery close to the location Spot!

See my photo stretch below and click to enlarge. ENJOY!

PS that is a great onsite recreation photo opportunity for fans living near @Paul Veres@miamijimf @C Glide @TylerDurden389

Edited January 14, 2022 by Tom

[Paul Veres]

On 1/10/2022 at 9:54 PM, Tom said:

LOCATION CONFIRMED AND EXACT SPOT FOUND: THE CEMETERY

After long playing around with puzzle pieces and checking similar cemeteries, I am able to confirm now the cemetery and the exact spot where it was filmed there. We always suspected Woodlawn North Cemetery at 3260 SW 8 Street (Calle Ocho) due to abundance of high white statues, but were never able to confirm. They filmed it in the southern part filming south. The cars we see running in parallel to the cemetery are running on SW 16 Street westbound. Everything matches. The small street inside the cemetery running in parallel to the street outside, the small intersection where the small street divides at a small green island.

Due to the same trees (Unique branch pattern) and crosses/statues/vases, I can confirm the filming location exactly down to the exact spot, for the scene with Maria mourning and the scene where Tubbs and Ramon take a walk with Ramonßs limo slowly driving behind them. They walk by a big cross with a multistep foundation, a white statue, a tree and behind the tree is a statue with 2 vases on each side. The latter statue has been removed, everything else is there and looks the same as in December 1988. Just the trees are bit bigger, but the unique branch pattern and the unique sequence of background items nail this 100%. Sorry my pics are shooting in the opposite direction than the camera in the episode was, but we are lucky at all that there is partial Google street view within the cemetery close to the location Spot!

See my photo stretch below and click to enlarge. ENJOY!

PS that is a great onsite recreation photo opportunity for fans living near @Paul Veres@miamijimf @C Glide

Incredible resourcefulness and persistence @Tom ! As you know I'm a newbie here and still [re]watching just the first season, so cannot yet really connect to the scene enough to prompt me go there for myself, but if you guys would like any current photos I'd be more than happy to venture out and take some.

[Tom]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Paul Veres:

Incredible resourcefulness and persistence @Tom ! As you know I'm a newbie here and still [re]watching just the first season, so cannot yet really connect to the scene enough to prompt me go there for myself, but if you guys would like any current photos I'd be more than happy to venture out and take some.

Thanks! Don´t wanna talk you into something, but if season 1 locations would prompt you to go you could start with the La Carreta Restaurant (Heart of darkness) or Club Ocho (Give a little, take a little) or Maximo Gomez Park at Calle Ocho and 15th Ave (Score).  All of these are very close to Woodlawn Park Cemetery 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Tom

[Matt5]

On 1/11/2022 at 2:54 AM, Tom said:

LOCATION CONFIRMED AND EXACT SPOT FOUND: THE CEMETERY

After long playing around with puzzle pieces and checking similar cemeteries, I am able to confirm now the cemetery and the exact spot where it was filmed there. We always suspected Woodlawn North Cemetery at 3260 SW 8 Street (Calle Ocho) due to abundance of high white statues, but were never able to confirm. They filmed it in the southern part filming south. The cars we see running in parallel to the cemetery are running on SW 16 Street westbound. Everything matches. The small street inside the cemetery running in parallel to the street outside, the small intersection where the small street divides at a small green island.

Due to the same trees (Unique branch pattern) and crosses/statues/vases, I can confirm the filming location exactly down to the exact spot, for the scene with Maria mourning and the scene where Tubbs and Ramon take a walk with Ramonßs limo slowly driving behind them. They walk by a big cross with a multistep foundation, a white statue, a tree and behind the tree is a statue with 2 vases on each side. The latter statue has been removed, everything else is there and looks the same as in December 1988. Just the trees are bit bigger, but the unique branch pattern and the unique sequence of background items nail this 100%. Sorry my pics are shooting in the opposite direction than the camera in the episode was, but we are lucky at all that there is partial Google street view within the cemetery close to the location Spot!

See my photo stretch below and click to enlarge. ENJOY!

PS that is a great onsite recreation photo opportunity for fans living near @Paul Veres@miamijimf @C Glide

This is amazing information Tom. I was at Woodlawn in Little Havana recently and couldn’t match on the ground - the third photo is at the southern part of the Cemetary with SW16th street in the background- the first two photos are the northern part of the park off SW8th Street.

[Tom]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Matt5:

This is amazing information Tom. I was at Woodlawn in Little Havana recently and couldn’t match on the ground - the third photo is at the southern part of the Cemetary with SW16th street in the background- the first two photos are the northern part of the park off SW8th Street.

Thanks Matt!

LOL on your third photo you were really pretty close, as you have the tree behind Maria on the left (the tree with lot of subbranches)!

Hard to believe that I found the exact spot on the ground from Europe with Google earlier than you onsite. 

That means you have to go again. What a pleasant "penalty"!

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Tom

[TylerDurden389]

I appreciate the shout out Tom. I actually live up in Boynton Beach now (job transfer so I could be closer to my parents). I don't think I've been back down to Miami once since last June/July, unfortunately. I'd go on the weekends but my car is on its last legs too. TBH I don't really have any more locations to scout out other than the turnpike that's a ways away from that site where Ted Nugent would kill his victims in "Definitely Miami". As well as a place in Miami Beach called "Miami's Vice" in a spot called "The Lincoln Eatery". I'll probably go down there someday and do both, as I wanna get a shot of that dirt road that Crockett drove down at the end of the episode. I wanna get it during sunset since that dirt path actually goes west from southbound side of the highway.

Not too crazy about pulling over to the side of a highway where the speed limit is 70mph, which means everyone's going 85+, but given it'll be evening time, hopefully there's enough traffic to keep everyone going less than 20 lol. Maybe I should go early in the morning and have the sun on the opposite side instead lol.

[Tom]

@daytona365GOOD NEWS: I have found a complete online list of all houses Fatio either built as an architect or at least designed! (he is said to have designed 200 houses and I found as many in the list - change the single pages at the bottom from 1-16)

https://hspbc.pastperfectonline.com/byperson?keyword=Fatio%2C+Maurice&page=12

BAD NEWS: the Ballard house is not among them 

But: this list has addresses for all homes, the role Fatio had (architect or designer), for whom he built it and when (the Ballard house is colonial revival style that started around 1930 and lasted until 1940s. Fatio built many houses in other styles in the 1920s already.

But lots of lessons learned:

• Fatio did 90% of his work in Palm Beach, a few in Boca Raton and Miami Beach (most in the North Bay Road, Sunset Island and La Gorce Island area). Only a few houses in the Hamptons and in Texas (Dallas area).
• Among the thousands of houses I have checked for the Ballard house, so far only Fatio´s houses have all the features (Colonial revival, bay windows, 2 stories, significant corners/finger sticking out) we look for. Not a single close match done by somebody else!

See two good examples below. One (first two pics) is a home in Miami Beach at North Bay Rd that had bay windows when Fatio designed it, but was terribly remodelled and lost all bay windows and is hardly recognizable today. What a shame!

The other (last pic) is a wonderful Palm Beach house with bay windows built by Fatio.

 

[Tom]

three more very close false positives with bay windows, this time in Ft. Lauderdale

@daytona365

Edited March 11, 2022 by Tom

[Tom]

Am 20.7.2015 um 05:45 schrieb airtommy:

For the Billy/Sonny scene, I was confused by the big building in the background.  I couldn't find it at either end of Lincoln Road.  Then I realized we are actually seeing across the water to Belle Isle.  That darn zoom lens again!  The camera is looking west.  I bet C Glide will find the exact spot where they walk.

EXACT SPOT OF WALK CROCKETT-BILLY: in front of 618 Lincoln Rd

@C Glidewas right on his website about the 600 block, but he was half a block off with his arrow on the map. I have sussed out where exactly and it took me two hours as the strong zoom on TV was very deceiving. We see the Belle Isle Condo in the far background, the Sun Trust Bdg at 1111 Lincoln and the Sterling Bdg at 927 Lincoln just behind Crockett&Billy which gives the impression that they are next to the intersection of Jefferson Ave and Lincoln, but in fact they are one block east of that with one more block in between.

The intersection and the traffic light behind them is Meridian Ave & Lincoln Rd. The key clue was the "Baskin Robbins Ice cream shoppe" and the diagonal concrete structure behind Billy. 3 unique matches are:

1. Baskin Robbins was at 618 Lincoln Rd, just east of the Euclid Ave/Lincoln Rd intersection.
2. The diagonal concrete structures are still there (and they are unique - this is the only spot on whole Lincoln Rd Mall, where these are located, as each block has different shaped sculptures!), just blocked with many tables. On old pictures we see that Billy stood exactly north of the last westernmost diagonal structure, which matches exactly with the Baskin Robbins location behind him at 618 Lincoln. The shop fronts have not changed much.
3. And: behind Crockett we see a "665" number on the shop between him and the Meridian Ave/Lincoln intersection which triangulates perfectly with everything else we see.

See my Pics below. Case closed. Click to enlarge. ENJOY!

Edited March 19, 2022 by Tom

[Dadrian]

You mean they weren’t in Atlanta??? 

Nice work Tom. I’ve been right there many times—a couple of them with my young son! 

[Tom]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

You mean they weren’t in Atlanta??? 

Yeah, don´t know how to tell you this and don´t wanna disillusion you, but it´s the same as with the bees and the flowers 

[Tom]

more small new clues about the Ballard house that might help to find it. @daytona365

1. there is a neighbor house in the garden that they smartly filmed around. It is hardly visible on my DVD frame, but strongly visible on CGlide´s screenshot on his website for this episode. See below. 

2. also there is a huge tree that looks like a Banyan tree due to a massive brown (air)roots system visible. And another huge tree and something in between behind the street with the passing traffic that looks like a high wall. A Banyan tree or similar huge tropical tree(s) would lead to South Miami/Coconut Grove and rather rule out northern locations like Lauderdale/West Palm Beach or Miami Shores.

Click to enlarge.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Tom

[Tom]

I have updated @daytona365s sketch with some details recently discovered that resulted in some shifting of a building, of some trees and hedges and adding the yellowish wall we see in the background behind the car traffic. See the sketch before and after below. That wall together with the big Banyan tree (or a huge tree with similar root system) should help us to find it - it could belong to a residential property, but also could be part of a bigger public property, like a hospital or a tourist site. This together with the Banyan tree rather indicates South of Miami. I checked around Coconut Grove/Pinecrest already but did not find anything.

The house seems to be located at a bigger street with quite fast car traffic. If there is a N-S running street crossing it is not conclusive from the TV scenes, but very likely (as there is a previously hidden neighbor house behind the iron fence, this house needs to have street access too and this is only possible from the left outside the frame as behind -looking north- there is another high green hedge separating  it from the background neighbor property). This N-S running street must be a minor one, as the fast car traffic on the W-O street indicates this crossing street would have a stop sign - otherwise the fast running cars would have suicide drivers in it.

P.S. for those who forgot: the N/S layout of the sketch is sure, as the late December sun was shining onto the front side of the house when Crockett entered the building! Thus the front side of the house must look south or south east at best. Everything else is physically impossible.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Tom

[Tom]

Walk of Crockett and son location as of today. The bench(es) of the westernmost structure has been removed, otherwise still recognizable. 618 Lincoln Rd

 

[Tom]

@daytona365

yesterday I did a long tour with @Paul Veresthrough Coral Gables via car. We did not find the Ballard house but I am convinced now this is the right area. The huge banyan trees, the „vibes“, the vegetation, the lot sizes, the driveways, even more colonial revival houses with bay windows (eg https://www.google.at/maps/place/1285+Algardi+Ave,+Coral+Gables,+FL+33146/@25.7335163,-80.2800203,18z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x88d9b81c29be8df9:0x3f86a8e51d43e2ef!2s1285+Algardi+Ave,+Coral+Gables,+FL+33146!8m2!3d25.7335163!4d-80.2800203!3m4!1s0x88d9b81c29be8df9:0x3f86a8e51d43e2ef!8m2!3d25.7335163!4d-80.2800203) I haven’t noticed before on satellite.

I will stay on this and search the whole Gables once more from top to bottom.

[Tom]

3211 Anderson Rd in Coral Gables is an interesting colonial house as well. It is NOT our house but it was built 1939 and designed by John Skinner, has the same asymetrical bay windows, similar lot size at an intersection, lots of non-tropical vegetation and the entrance door is exactly matching, even the door knob and the lights. I am getting more and more confident now with Coral Gables.

P.S. of course the entrance is facing west which is a knock out. also some other key criteria are not met.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Tom