Favourite Miami Vice Villain

[Guest myonlyvice]

I agree with your choices. Legba is a great villian. I only question if Jackie in LMD should be considered a true villain. Remember Sonny's speech at the end of Honor Among Thieves when he was defending Delgato. To summarize what Sonny said: We are different from this man. He knew what he was doing but not the way we do. He had no choice. He walked towards something horrible and he could not stop. You see the horror and you don't want to go' date=' but you must etc. Jackie saw the horror she was walking to because at the end she said to Tubbs, "I don't want to hurt you." You can only assume Jackie killed herself because of the hell she was experiencing and/or to keep from hurting Rico or anyone else. I guess you could say Legba had a sick mind also but he never gave any indication that he knew what he was doing was wrong or expressed any remorse.[/quote']I see what you're saying about Jackie and you make a fair point. It is uncertain, in my view, if she enjoyed the killing or not. I contend there was definite evidence of premeditation on her part. Now whether or not she had complete control over all her faculties is up for debate. I always felt she didn't hurt Tubbs at the end because he was so nice to her and the guilt she would have felt in indulging her bloodlust was too much to bear in his unique case. If my view is correct then she did have some level of self-awareness and self-control. I can understand drawing a distinction between her and other M.V. villains but, all the same, it was her doing the killing. She was different, no doubt, which is what makes her sooo interesting. She's still a villain though, provided you define "villain" as the character C&T are working to bring down. This was my conception of "villain" anyway when I came across this thread.

[miamijimf]

complete control over all her faculties is up for debate. I always felt she didn't hurt Tubbs at the end because he was so nice to her and the guilt she would have felt in indulging her bloodlust was too much to bear in his unique case. If my view is correct then she did have some level of self-awareness and self-control. I can understand drawing a distinction between her and other M.V. villains but, all the same, it was her doing the killing. She was different, no doubt, which is what makes her sooo interesting. She's still a villain though, provided you define "villain" as the character C&T are working to bring down. This was my conception of "villain" anyway when I came across this thread.

Good points pal. Thanks for the input. Yes your conception of "villain" is the same as mine. But I had just watched Honor Among Thieves where Sonny questions whether unbalanced obsessive compulsive people are totally responsible for their actions. I thought I would pose the question about Jackie's responsibility for sake of discussion. Opinions differ but, if I understand the legal distinction correctly, insanity pleas wont stand up if the accused knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong. If you will remember in the beginning Jackie doesn't know what Cat is talking about when he brings up her actions. Was she lying? Not clear but all we have to go on is the script. She knew later just before she commits suicide so my impression is that she didn't always know what she was doing. I don't think she enjoyed her murders. During the teaser, after she kills the sailor and Cat finds her she is very distraught. I don't see any evidence of premeditation. The only motive to get picked up by johns we hear about is money. You are right, she is really an interesting and different Vice character. (Fiona, who plays Jackie is even more interesting in real life) This is one of the all time great episodes. It is good because it is thought provoking, not cut and dried. Those that like it seem to have differing interpretations of things like Rico's motivation, whether Jackie and/or Cat are sympathetic characters etc. Not to mention it holds your attention, the music, the neon display, the kindness of Sonny to the bag lady, the suspense, the gritty night scenes etc etc. I am going to copy this discussion to the LMD Episode Discussion thread.

[CarolineUK]

Am I the only one who likes Cliff King from the Burnett episodes? I liked how ruthless and treacherous he was.

I agree, Cliff King was nasty. For me he is just pipped by Al Lombard and Charlie Glide

[Matt5]

Loved Lombard ( Dennis Farina) not as a villain though - he had a real connection with Sonny and that brought depth to both characters.

[Guest myonlyvice]

Good points pal. Thanks for the input. Yes your conception of "villain" is the same as mine. But I had just watched Honor Among Thieves where Sonny questions whether unbalanced obsessive compulsive people are totally responsible for their actions. I thought I would pose the question about Jackie's responsibility for sake of discussion. Opinions differ but' date=' if I understand the legal distinction correctly, insanity pleas wont stand up if the accused knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong. If you will remember in the beginning Jackie doesn't know what Cat is talking about when he brings up her actions. Was she lying? Not clear but all we have to go on is the script. She knew later just before she commits suicide so my impression is that she didn't always know what she was doing. I don't think she enjoyed her murders. During the teaser, after she kills the sailor and Cat finds her she is very distraught. I don't see any evidence of premeditation. The only motive to get picked up by johns we hear about is money. You are right, she is really an interesting and different Vice character. (Fiona, who plays Jackie is even more interesting in real life) This is one of the all time great episodes. It is good because it is thought provoking, not cut and dried. Those that like it seem to have differing interpretations of things like Rico's motivation, whether Jackie and/or Cat are sympathetic characters etc. Not to mention it holds your attention, the music, the neon display, the kindness of Sonny to the bag lady, the suspense, the gritty night scenes etc etc. I am going to copy this discussion to the LMD Episode Discussion thread.[/quote']You make more good points, bro. I always viewed Jackie as being coy when Cat would steer the conversation towards her killing. It's a thing they're both aware of but refuse to explicitly acknowledge. If, as you suggest, she was aware of what she did at the end, which is my interpretation as well, I see no reason to assume she would have been unaware in the earlier incidents. A hooker repeatedly killing her johns to me indicates strategy. She did appear to be unbalanced at times but I don't know if that absolves her of all responsibility. To be innocent by reason of insanity a person would need to have the moral sense of a child and I don't think this describes Jackie. She probably viewed the men who slept with prostitutes with contempt. Perhaps she had been previously abused but continued to engage in prostitution because she needed the money. But once she got what she wanted from a john she had to right the wrong the john perpetrated against her. As far as any evidence of premeditation, in the sailor murder she was carrying around a pretty big knife. You could argue she only had it for protection but she was drawing pictures of her kills throughout the story and, also in the case of the sailor, it appeared she was burning evidence. (It could have been Cat who started the fire because the camera cuts away which makes this unclear.) I think Jackie was clever enough to show the face she wanted to show so she could do what she felt like doing--make money prostituting herself but still making the johns pay for the "abuse" they brought against her. She was disturbed but not child-like. I think her relationship with Tubbs supports this. I think she knew she was going to kill Tubbs well in advance of her actual attempt. She wanted Tubbs to come on to her so she could justify killing him, but he never did. She drugged him, bound him, and was prepared to kill him anyway because she couldn't understand a "non-john", or perhaps she refused to believe there was such a thing. But his unwavering charity underscored with what may have been guilt she felt over all the "innocent" johns she killed turned out to be too much for her to bear.

[Matt5]

Some great information

[CarolineUK]

Since posting on here earlier today with my choices, I've been thinking through the various episodes: it is hard to pinpoint a definitive MV villain as they have all been very different. Some who are the villains in an episode are breaking the law but don't have much charisma (for me, it's McCarthy & the guys from Nobody lives forever & Doss and Cannata from Buddies); there are those who make my flesh crawl (Mosca, Hackman, Lupo Ramirez, Mr Johnston from Prodigal Son) & those who are three-dimensional villains (Lombard, Charlie Glide, Calderone). Finally is the one who can be classed as villain and (occasionally) hero - Izzy Moreno, one of my all time MV favourites who was forever breaking the law. I'm not being sexist in ignoring the female villains in the series, i just feel that the writing was stronger overall for male villains.I'm sure I'll watch another episode soon & think, how did I forget that character for my list!!

[Brother in Arms]

al lombard and sunny burnett:thumbsup:

[cageyJG]

Surf, for sure. What a great character. I guess I should say why he is great. Great, because he wears Hawaiian shirts, has a cool name that reminds me of Apocalypse Now, and is so creepy trying to be friendly but is actually really lethal. If there were a topic for "grey area" characters, It'd have to be Lombard. (Good or bad?) Mike Hammer. Somebody should get him to come on the forum.

[SonnyCrockettBurnett01]

I think it would have to be either Cliff King or The Calderones (Esteban and Orlando)

[ivoryjones]

Hackman! And I'm sure Sonny Crockett would agree with me!

[michealscott7]

Frank Mosca and Calderone were my fav villians, loved the episodes with them in

[zackcrocker]

my fav i would have to say was AL LOMBARD he was great! him and sonny had great chem. with each other! he was cool and laid back awsome.

[SwissTubbs]

Time to Bump this old thread:

 

I cant name only one.
My 3 Best MV Villains:

1. Calderone (Miguel Pinero)
That was the start of the show after all and i like how he was written in the pilot and Calderones Return. He was nasty but they also showed that  he has family feelings (scenes with angelina) and seemed to be a good father. Not as one-dimensional as others.

2. Frank Mosca (Stanley Tucci)
I just love how Stanley Tucci plays him. Especially his second Episode is one of my favs. And altough the first episode of season 4 is not a good idea for a season start it is a good build up for the mosca character

3. Frank Hackman (Guy Boyd)
He is a badass of epic proportions and especially his Season 3 Episode is a masterpiece of MV. I like how he fooled crockett. One of the most shocking endings.

Of course there would be a lot of others to mention
Therefore some honorable mentions:
Ian McShane as Montoya was cool.
Frank Zappa made such a cool appaerence with his very short screen time.
McCarthy was also a very good one. The Episode itself is certainly not the best but i like him as villain.
John Turturro as Traynor in Rites of Passage was also great.

MV had sometimes also the problem of too much stylized villains. Even for the 80s.
Especially the last season had a problem with comic book style over the top villains (El gato or the guy with the dog for example...) but i liked Brion James in Borrasca or David Schramm in Asian Cut. Schramm was a good example for doing the over the top approach in the right way. He portrayed that very well and it was necessary to give the character some contrast to the beginning of the episode. I also like Steven McHatty from Poison Tree and in the same Episode Jeff Meek as Enriquez.

I dont consider Lombard a full Villain otherwise the late Dennis Farina would of course be in this list as well.
 

[Tom]

I found Eric Halliwell (David Schramm) in Asian Cut did a good and versatile acting job, especially at the end when his "victim" Trudy got away and directed her gun at him. He suddenly turned from aggressive to whiny and desperate and started to cover his face with shaky hands before he raised his gun and got shot.

[SwissTubbs]

Am 22.4.2020 um 21:02 schrieb Tom:

I found Eric Halliwell (David Schramm) in Asian Cut did a good and versatile acting job, especially at the end when his "victim" Trudy got away and directed her gun at him. He suddenly turned from aggressive to whiny and desperate and started to cover his face with shaky hands before he raised his gun and got shot.

Yes. He was great. Thats what i ment with my "Schramm was a good example for doing the over the top approach in the right way." Sorry i should have been more detailed about that.
He came across real creepy because he had the balance in acting it out. He could do calm, over the top, whiny and all those things in a believable way. That made the character really creepy. Not like some more comicbook Villains of Season 5.
Schramm was one of the main reasons why Asian Cut worked so well.
Its one of my favorite Episodes. And The "Under the milky way" montage is also a classic!

 

[Neons in Noir]

It is probably cliche to say this but; Ludovici Armstrong (from the Calderone's Return episode). Because he's smart, very efficient, and pretty mysterious. I like that scene when he's eating an ice cream while Tubbs and Crockett walk unknowingly past him.

[Mr. Vigilante]

Hackman, without a doubt!

But, Swayne (John Toles-Bey) from "Too Much, Too Late" was about as despicable as they come.  He made for a quite disturbing episode!

[Player]

Carlos Perena from Miracle Man is the coolest looking drug lord! Sleek hair, sunglasses, gold jewelry − just perfect.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Player

[sdiegolo78]

I like Frank Romano very much from 'Fruit of the poison tree', very menacing. He doesn't cross C&T path but i think he's a missed opportunity. Most cartoonish for me are El Gato and Sebastian Ross from Miami Squeeze. Furthermore he was the only British villain in the series.

As with the best villain in absolute terms i'd go with Ludovic Armstrong and Frank Hackman.

[Swevicus]

One from each season:

1. Esteban Calderone - the one who started it all. Villain Zero, if you like.  
2. Orlando Calderone - just as cruel and deviant as his father, if not more so.
3. Frank Hackman - evil incarnate.
4. Frank Mosca - charismatic, intelligent and efficient with a twisted sense of humour.
5. Sebastian Ross - a refreshing change to have a realistic antagonist at a point where the show had become a live-action comic book.