Episode #111 "Freefall"

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

Going out with what die-hard fans wanted would have been a better way to go...considering where the show was at, by that point. 

Regardless of what was going on in the real world at that time, this was MV! The series finale for the whole show needed to take place in Miami, showcased what the series had truly/originally been about, and a situation there...and include the cast as a whole. 

Well said!! 

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Totally agree. "Fruit Of The Poison Tree" would have been better way to end the series with of course more running time and adding more to the story to fit a finale.

What I didn't like about "Freefall" also was Crockett and Tubbs quiting Vice. Should have ended with them going back to work, like that scene at the end of "Prodigal Son" when they return and Crockett goes back to his desk, picks up his phone and moves on to another case. 

Totally agree about the ending being stupid with having Crockett and Tubbs just quit and walk off, leaving everyone hanging. Even if  they actually ended up quitting Vice, they still should’ve had more closure to their characters and where they were going. 

 Interesting about fruit of the poisonous tree being the finale! I’ve never thought about that one.  

[Dadrian]

Compared to the rest of season 5, I think the finale had plenty of classic MV elements. I do agree that it spent too much time out of Miami. 

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

Totally agree about the ending being stupid with having Crockett and Tubbs just quit and walk off, leaving everyone hanging. Even if  they actually ended up quitting Vice, they still should’ve had more closure to their characters and where they were going. 

 Interesting about fruit of the poisonous tree being the finale! I’ve never thought about that one.  

We had a few unanswered questions, but most TV shows have to deal with that when they're cancelled  so that's sad, but not unusual.

I also like the possibility that Fruit of the Poisonous Tree could have been the ending, but at the time, the fan in me wanted the show to go on forever!

So, now I can explore what "could have been"!

We should explore this further-maybe a thread entitled, "What episode would have been the better ending?" Might be fun!

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

We had a few unanswered questions, but most TV shows have to deal with that when they're cancelled  so that's sad, but not unusual.

I also like the possibility that Fruit of the Poisonous Tree could have been the ending, but at the time, the fan in me wanted the show to go on forever!

So, now I can explore what "could have been"!

We should explore this further-maybe a thread entitled, "What episode would have been the better ending?" Might be fun!

 Definitely a good idea for a new thread of what could have been!

For MV, however, they knew it was cancelled and done. The finale was done on purpose, it wasn’t like the show was canceled unexpectedly like some shows have happen, and then you are left hanging. They could’ve done a lot better finale and finised things out a lot better, than Freefall. 

[mjcmmv]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

 Definitely a good idea for a new thread of what could have been!

For MV, however, they knew it was cancelled and done. The finale was done on purpose, it wasn’t like the show was canceled unexpectedly like some shows have happen, and then you are left hanging. They could’ve done a lot better finale and finised things out a lot better, than Freefall. 

This show had so much potential, it was almost as if they were holding on to it's success for dear life! And as a fan, so was I! I agree that Freefall was a let down. The ending was rushed, almost like it was an afterthought. The fans didn't deserve that-which is why some of us are begging for a reboot. But I think too much time has passed for that to be a success. Miami Vice was a show of the 80's. A good time for me, with lots of good memories, especially the music, but hardly relevant today. 

[ViceFanMan]

10 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

This show had so much potential, it was almost as if they were holding on to it's success for dear life! And as a fan, so was I! I agree that Freefall was a let down. The ending was rushed, almost like it was an afterthought. The fans didn't deserve that-which is why some of us are begging for a reboot. But I think too much time has passed for that to be a success. Miami Vice was a show of the 80's. A good time for me, with lots of good memories, especially the music, but hardly relevant today. 

Possibly so...but ironically MV’s influence is still seen everywhere—TV, movies, and in regular society! Everywhere I go I see pastels (clothes, buildings, etc...), music from the actual artists are used for everything, and there’s just an MV sizzle of style and flare that’s still seen & used today. 

Agree the finale was rushed and a huge letdown! 

Edited May 16, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[mjcmmv]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

Possibly so...but ironically MV’s influence is still seen everywhere—TV, movies, and in regular society! Everywhere I go I see pastels (clothes, buildings, etc...), music from the actual artists are used for everything, and there’s just an MV sizzle of style and flare that’s still seen & used today. 

I absolutely agree. My kids gave me a surprise BD party that revolved around the 80's and of course, Miami Vice. It took place in a restaurant with lots of people involved and it amazed me how many folks there were thrilled with the theme-young and old!! MV is timeless; there's no doubt about it. 

[mjcmmv]

3 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

I absolutely agree. My kids gave me a surprise BD party that revolved around the 80's and of course, Miami Vice. It took place in a restaurant with lots of people involved and it amazed me how many folks there were thrilled with the theme-young and old!! MV is timeless; there's no doubt about it. 

In addition, I'd like to add that Michael Mann's talents have been adapted by many other directors and whenever I see camera work he is known for, I make sure to tell whoever will listen that we have him to thank for it!

Edited May 16, 2019 by mjcmmv

[ViceFanMan]

7 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

In addition, I'd like to add that Michael Mann's talents have been adapted by many other directors and whenever I see camera work he is known for, I make sure to tell whoever will listen that we have him to thank for it!

Agreed! 

[vicegirl85]

7 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

 Definitely a good idea for a new thread of what could have been!

For MV, however, they knew it was cancelled and done. The finale was done on purpose, it wasn’t like the show was canceled unexpectedly like some shows have happen, and then you are left hanging. They could’ve done a lot better finale and finised things out a lot better, than Freefall. 

I agree!  Although I believe and have said that the outcome of Freefall (with Crockett and Tubbs throwing down their badges and walking away) was an almost inevitable ending that fit the developments of the last year and a half (at least) within the show, it was depressing and disappointing, and left many loose threads hanging, especially for the secondary characters of Switek, Gina, and Trudy.  It would have been nice to see more effort put into a really quality plot for an episode based in Miami that tied up some of those pieces.

[Matt5]

9 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Agreed! 

You can see it I agree 

[Robbie C.]

3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree!  Although I believe and have said that the outcome of Freefall (with Crockett and Tubbs throwing down their badges and walking away) was an almost inevitable ending that fit the developments of the last year and a half (at least) within the show, it was depressing and disappointing, and left many loose threads hanging, especially for the secondary characters of Switek, Gina, and Trudy.  It would have been nice to see more effort put into a really quality plot for an episode based in Miami that tied up some of those pieces.

I agree (of course...I've always said one of Vice's biggest weaknesses was how it ignored those characters), but what we need to remember is by the time of Freefall Vice was a victim of its own meta-success. It almost HAD to go out with a political commentary episode as opposed to a "feel good" closeout. We may not like that, but it's the reality Vice created for itself.

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I agree (of course...I've always said one of Vice's biggest weaknesses was how it ignored those characters), but what we need to remember is by the time of Freefall Vice was a victim of its own meta-success. It almost HAD to go out with a political commentary episode as opposed to a "feel good" closeout. We may not like that, but it's the reality Vice created for itself.

I agree, that MV had taken a more “political” stance towards the end...but that was it’s downfall. That’s not really what the show originally or initially was about & most fans were tired of it. For the series finale, they should have returned more to the “MV basics” for one last cash-in. It would have gone over better. Freefall could have been done earlier in the season...then with other episodes, worked the characters back to a more positive ending with at least closure. 

[RedDragon86]

12 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree, that MV had taken a more “political” stance towards the end...but that was it’s downfall. That’s not really what the show originally or initially was about & most fans were tired of it. For the series finale, they should have returned more to the “MV basics” for one last cash-in. It would have gone over better. Freefall could have been done earlier in the season...then with other episodes, worked the characters back to a more positive ending with at least closure. 

If Michael Mann stayed the whole series would have been done so much better, certainly gone down a different path. Sonny would not have got married for one thing. 

[Robbie C.]

8 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

If Michael Mann stayed the whole series would have been done so much better, certainly gone down a different path. Sonny would not have got married for one thing. 

I don't know that we can say that. Crime Story certainly started to wander all over the place, and that was his baby. The truth is we will never really know what Mann might have done with Vice. His interest was always more visual in any case, but the political elements were there from the very first episodes. I think it was likely Yerkovich who would have pulled against that, but his influence vanished pretty early. Mann is a stellar director, but he's a movie director. He's admitted many times he doesn't really have the patience for a long-term project like a series.

If Sonny was intended as an extended meditation of the perils of undercover life, the series should have ended at the conclusion of the Burnett arc. Sonny's broken and finished. Stan's sadly neglected arc plays into that as well, since he might not have developed the major gambling issues he had if he hadn't been pressured by the death of Larry. 

[ViceFanMan]

57 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

If Michael Mann stayed the whole series would have been done so much better, certainly gone down a different path. Sonny would not have got married for one thing. 

I agree that if Mann had stayed more involved throughout the series’ entire run, it most likely would have fared much better towards the end...possibly gone longer and/or had more seasons! Crockett’s whole “slam-bam-thank ‘ya-mam” marriage to Caitlyn was ridiculous, and was a desperate attempt by producers at that time to try and gain back fans/ratings.  But, it failed. I don’t know if Mann would have ever came up with a Sonny marriage idea too or not, but if so I do believe he would have handled it better & created a better scenario.  

 

[RedDragon86]

2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I don't know that we can say that. Crime Story certainly started to wander all over the place, and that was his baby. The truth is we will never really know what Mann might have done with Vice. His interest was always more visual in any case, but the political elements were there from the very first episodes. I think it was likely Yerkovich who would have pulled against that, but his influence vanished pretty early. Mann is a stellar director, but he's a movie director. He's admitted many times he doesn't really have the patience for a long-term project like a series.

If Sonny was intended as an extended meditation of the perils of undercover life, the series should have ended at the conclusion of the Burnett arc. Sonny's broken and finished. Stan's sadly neglected arc plays into that as well, since he might not have developed the major gambling issues he had if he hadn't been pressured by the death of Larry. 

Its not just the visuals and style he offered, also it would have been handled better under his supervision. 

If Michael Mann stayed, also a lot of talented people he knew personally would have as well,  the likes Paul Michael Glaser, Abel Ferrara, David Soul, John Santucci, Kim Griest, James Remar, Bill Smitrovich, Dennis Farina,  David Patrick Kelly, Dan Hedaya etc. The guest stars were so much better during  Mann's era.

There are some guest stars I didn't find convincing after 2, Ian McShane for one, a cockney guy playing a Latino and a dictator. Its the friggin guy from Lovejoy.

Edited May 16, 2019 by RedDragon86

[vicegirl85]

3 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree, that MV had taken a more “political” stance towards the end...but that was it’s downfall. That’s not really what the show originally or initially was about & most fans were tired of it. For the series finale, they should have returned more to the “MV basics” for one last cash-in. It would have gone over better. Freefall could have been done earlier in the season...then with other episodes, worked the characters back to a more positive ending with at least closure. 

While I didn't really like the direction the show took in the last 2 seasons, it had more to do with inconsistent/absent character development.  I didn't mind the political stuff; I found a lot of it interesting.  That said, the politics of law enforcement in the big picture (read:  the Feds) were present from the earliest days.   Letting a major player like Tony Amato have immunity from federal prosecution because of his international connections; Fed Joe Dalva is able to force Maria Rojas to meet with her brother, Sergio Clemente, even though she is in the Federal witness protection program to be safe from Clemente... and on and on.  For me, Stone's War was the apex of the politically topical episodes, because it referenced things that were actually going on at the time, in spite of seeming to go against the supposed policies of the US.  

I didn't like Freefall and it will never be a favorite episode, but I do think it was an ending that fit the path Crockett and Tubbs had gone down.  I feel very schizoid even saying this!  But it's how I feel.

The other thing I think is that we were actually lucky that the network gave us a 2-hour series finale that returned to one of the favorite episode's (Smuggler's Blues) themes.  NBC could have let MV go out with a whimper, its popularity had sunk so far.  As unsatisfactory as I found Freefall, I think care was taken and it was a rather ambitious and expensive effort. 

[Robbie C.]

9 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

While I didn't really like the direction the show took in the last 2 seasons, it had more to do with inconsistent/absent character development.  I didn't mind the political stuff; I found a lot of it interesting.  That said, the politics of law enforcement in the big picture (read:  the Feds) were present from the earliest days.   Letting a major player like Tony Amato have immunity from federal prosecution because of his international connections; Fed Joe Dalva is able to force Maria Rojas to meet with her brother, Sergio Clemente, even though she is in the Federal witness protection program to be safe from Clemente... and on and on.  For me, Stone's War was the apex of the politically topical episodes, because it referenced things that were actually going on at the time, in spite of seeming to go against the supposed policies of the US.  

I didn't like Freefall and it will never be a favorite episode, but I do think it was an ending that fit the path Crockett and Tubbs had gone down.  I feel very schizoid even saying this!  But it's how I feel.

The other thing I think is that we were actually lucky that the network gave us a 2-hour series finale that returned to one of the favorite episode's (Smuggler's Blues) themes.  NBC could have let MV go out with a whimper, its popularity had sunk so far.  As unsatisfactory as I found Freefall, I think care was taken and it was a rather ambitious and expensive effort. 

I agree with almost all of this. If we want to get really picky, the unreliable Fed actually appeared in the pilot episode (Scotty Wheeler) and then reappeared with great regularity throughout. Look at Artie Rollins...the Feds burned him out with undercover assignments. Castillo is even shown as a redeemed Fed because he left their service to try to make a difference locally.

The political stuff was especially interesting if you lived through that time period. It doesn't necessarily age well, but it shows how far out the writers were willing to go in order to make a point (including social issues). This was VERY unusual for the time, and is perhaps once of Vice's bigger (if unacknowledged) legacies.

[mjcmmv]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

 

There are some guest stars I didn't find convincing after 2, Ian McShane for one, a cockney guy playing a Latino and a dictator. Its the friggin guy from Lovejoy.

This made me laugh, and it's so true!!!

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

While I didn't really like the direction the show took in the last 2 seasons, it had more to do with inconsistent/absent character development.  I didn't mind the political stuff; I found a lot of it interesting.  That said, the politics of law enforcement in the big picture (read:  the Feds) were present from the earliest days.   Letting a major player like Tony Amato have immunity from federal prosecution because of his international connections; Fed Joe Dalva is able to force Maria Rojas to meet with her brother, Sergio Clemente, even though she is in the Federal witness protection program to be safe from Clemente... and on and on.  For me, Stone's War was the apex of the politically topical episodes, because it referenced things that were actually going on at the time, in spite of seeming to go against the supposed policies of the US.  

I didn't like Freefall and it will never be a favorite episode, but I do think it was an ending that fit the path Crockett and Tubbs had gone down.  I feel very schizoid even saying this!  But it's how I feel.

The other thing I think is that we were actually lucky that the network gave us a 2-hour series finale that returned to one of the favorite episode's (Smuggler's Blues) themes.  NBC could have let MV go out with a whimper, its popularity had sunk so far.  As unsatisfactory as I found Freefall, I think care was taken and it was a rather ambitious and expensive effort. 

I agree that I didn’t really like the direction the last couple seasons had taken either (although there were still some good episodes sprinkled throughout each season)...mainly because it seemed there was no real direction for the show anymore. It was kind of these bizarre weird episodes all over the place— some making no sense, some having no real purpose at all, others had political agendas, etc... 

The show had lost its direction, and had abandoned what had originally made it famous, and that was its downfall.  I’m sorry but some of that was the political garbage. I understand and remember a lot of that going on at the time growing up, but that’s not really what MV was initially about, and it made the show depressing and no longer fun to watch. We all saw and knew about the political crap (our country’s and all the other’s) on the news...didn’t need or want to see it on a TV show that was supposed to be entertainment. 

 Knowing about and even planning the shows end and finale—they still should have done much better than Freefall! The finale should not have been a “political”, out of the country, episode that left you depressed and hanging.  Even “darker” or more gritty-realistic shows can, and even need, a good or positive end that gives the characters & viewers closure. CSI was a very dark and gritty  show for its time...and it planned out & had a superb 2hr finale TV movie, that ended everything (characters, plot lines, possible future reunions, etc...) perfectly!  For its time, MV should have done something like that. 

[ViceFanMan]

5 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Its not just the visuals and style he offered, also it would have been handled better under his supervision. 

If Michael Mann stayed, also a lot of talented people he knew personally would have as well,  the likes Paul Michael Glaser, Abel Ferrara, David Soul, John Santucci, Kim Griest, James Remar, Bill Smitrovich, Dennis Farina,  David Patrick Kelly, Dan Hedaya etc. The guest stars were so much better during  Mann's era.

There are some guest stars I didn't find convincing after 2, Ian McShane for one, a cockney guy playing a Latino and a dictator. Its the friggin guy from Lovejoy.

Totally agree with this...so true!!   

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree that I didn’t really like the direction the last couple seasons had taken either (although there were still some good episodes sprinkled throughout each season)...mainly because it seemed there was no real direction for the show anymore. It was kind of these bizarre weird episodes all over the place— some making no sense, some having no real purpose at all, others had political agendas, etc... 

The show had lost its direction, and had abandoned what had originally made it famous, and that was its downfall.  I’m sorry but some of that was the political garbage. I understand and remember a lot of that going on at the time growing up, but that’s not really what MV was initially about, and it made the show depressing and no longer fun to watch. We all saw and knew about the political crap (our country’s and all the other’s) on the news...didn’t need or want to see it on a TV show that was supposed to be entertainment. 

 Knowing about and even planning the shows end and finale—they still should have done much better than Freefall! The finale should not have been a “political”, out of the country, episode that left you depressed and hanging.  Even “darker” or more gritty-realistic shows can, and even need, a good or positive end that gives the characters & viewers closure. CSI was a very dark and gritty  show for its time...and it planned out & had a superb 2hr finale TV movie, that ended everything (characters, plot lines, possible future reunions, etc...) perfectly!  For its time, MV should have done something like that. 

I was frustrated by this episode, for sure. Added to the confusion, NBC kept hinting that one of the major characters were going to get killed! Yikes....I was beside myself. I'm glad they changed their minds, but trying to lure us into watching this finale with a phony hook, made me furious!

[ViceFanMan]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:15 PM, mjcmmv said:

I was frustrated by this episode, for sure. Added to the confusion, NBC kept hinting that one of the major characters were going to get killed! Yikes....I was beside myself. I'm glad they changed their minds, but trying to lure us into watching this finale with a phony hook, made me furious!

Yeah, I think I’ve read before that one original idea was to ultimately have Crockett be killed at the end...but at least they had the “intelligence” to discard that idea. 

But the show was definitely done, and new producers & writers had all but destroyed it. They originally even still had 3 other episodes to air yet, after the so-called Freefall finale...going into June of 1989. Many think those 3 episodes were “lost” episodes never aired, as Freefall was aired as & considered the end. But that’s not true...they just didn’t know that 3 more episodes aired later, when everything else was in reruns by then. So even the organization and “flow” of things was cluster-chaos by then. 

(Note: not sure how a ‘sad’ or ‘confused’ emoji make much sense...but, okay??   )

Edited March 29, 2022 by ViceFanMan