ViceFanMan Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mr. Vigilante said: I only made it thru midway of season 3 of Hunter. I remember watching it in syndication as a kid, so I'm sure I saw some of the other seasons. Looking forward to starting it again. The first 4-5 seasons are definitely the best! Season 6 is okay, but 7 (the final season) kind of “tanked”...but Stepfanie Kramer (McCall) had left the show & the two other actresses brought in didn’t help. However, later in the reunions McCall is back! Hunter: Return to Justice (2002) is one of my all-time favorite reunion movies of a past favorite TV show. Another favorite reunion of mine was Perry Mason Returns (1985). Although the original series was during my parent’s childhood, I grew up watching reruns on TBS. I was seriously disappointed and disgusted with MV’s series finale (“Freefall”)—after all that happened throughout the show...& that’s the end we get?? I really wish they could have done a reunion movie of some kind in the mid to late 90s or early 2000s, to tie old loose ends up and have a better sense of closure. I know one will not happen now, though...it’s been too long. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren10 Posted June 27, 2020 Report Share Posted June 27, 2020 Has anyone here or elsewhere with some connections ever been able to ask why the finale was structured and written like it was, essentially minimizing supporting characters, no real big goodbye ala' MASH, and having half of it not even in Miami? They obviously knew the show was ending before S5 even started so they had time to come up with something that didn't feel rushed and could've been really special, but they still chose the route they took. Someone should broach this subject with anyone that was in the production if possible. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 27, 2020 Report Share Posted June 27, 2020 vor einer Stunde schrieb Bren10: Has anyone here or elsewhere with some connections ever been able to ask why the finale was structured and written like it was, essentially minimizing supporting characters, no real big goodbye ala' MASH, and having half of it not even in Miami? They obviously knew the show was ending before S5 even started so they had time to come up with something that didn't feel rushed and could've been really special, but they still chose the route they took. Someone should broach this subject with anyone that was in the production if possible. The show´s cancellation was not decided before season 5. It was decided in the second half of the season and officially announced to cast and crew right after "Lost madonna". I know that because Chip Chalmers, director of this episode, confirmed this. Right before Christmas 1988, DJ asked him at lunch if he wanted to direct and that he would talk to producers to get this approved. DJ kept his word, had a fight with Brams&co over this and Chalmers remembered that he was very lucky to get his first director´s seat (filming end of January to early February), because right afterwards "we got cancelled". The structure of the finale is not bad in general (it is simply partly mirroring Smuggler´s Blues that also mainly played outside of Miami), but I agree that the lack of other team members was a mistake. As to the missing big googbye: MASH is a bad example, as it was the first big TV show that got a real finale at all. Other shows had just a last episode of the season and that was it. And the MASH finale was 1982 as far as I remember. Considering the fate of other shows at that time who had no finale at all we should think that we were lucky that MV had a finale although it was not perfect IMHO. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted June 27, 2020 Report Share Posted June 27, 2020 MASH also ran for a considerable period of time. Vice did not. Other long-running shows prior to MASH didn't get any sort of finale, so as Tom points out at that time they were very much the exception and not the rule. They structured the final episode around the two "stars", which shouldn't surprise anyone given that's how they ran a reasonable chunk of the series (especially by season 3). It's not a great episode, but I'd also say it's fairly typical for a series finale during this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Hanna Posted June 27, 2020 Report Share Posted June 27, 2020 I'm eternally grateful to whomever talked PMT into wearing normal clothing and not that stuff he wears for most of S5. Freefall has it's flaws and some of the film making is a little shoddy (scenes end abruptly) but it's one of the better episodes from S4-5 so that's something at least. Freefall kind of reminded me of the MV movie, both are concerned more about plot and being epic rather than being about the characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Vigilante Posted June 27, 2020 Report Share Posted June 27, 2020 My opinion of the episode would go up considerably if there had been a final scene with the team at OCB. Maybe all the actors were so sick of eachother by this point they couldn't muster up enough emotion for a group hug. But Sonny and Rico's final scene did seem like the actors were genuinely sad that it was all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Tom said: The show´s cancellation was not decided before season 5. It was decided in the second half of the season and officially announced to cast and crew right after "Lost madonna". I know that because Chip Chalmers, director of this episode, confirmed this. Right before Christmas 1988, DJ asked him at lunch if he wanted to direct and that he would talk to producers to get this approved. DJ kept his word, had a fight with Brams&co over this and Chalmers remembered that he was very lucky to get his first director´s seat (filming end of January to early February), because right afterwards "we got cancelled". The structure of the finale is not bad in general (it is simply partly mirroring Smuggler´s Blues that also mainly played outside of Miami), but I agree that the lack of other team members was a mistake. As to the missing big googbye: MASH is a bad example, as it was the first big TV show that got a real finale at all. Other shows had just a last episode of the season and that was it. And the MASH finale was 1982 as far as I remember. Considering the fate of other shows at that time who had no finale at all we should think that we were lucky that MV had a finale although it was not perfect IMHO. Interesting info on the last season and when the show got cancelled...I knew it was sometime in Season 5 that it was decided, but didn’t know exactly when. Cool trivia! I’m sorry but I have to disagree with the finale...regardless if MV wasn’t on as many years as MASH, MV had a much higher & greater impact on the television industry! Other immensely popular shows well before MV (or MASH for that matter) had been informed they were being cancelled, and even though they weren’t 2hr episodes, those shows were able to plan & have finales that were appropriate and/or had them go out on a proverbial good note. MV did not! MV had impacted TV and the decade of the 80s like no other show...it definitely & totally could have and should have planned a much better finale episode...instead they did this ridiculous crap with a stupid & pathetic plot that mostly didn’t even take place in Miami (Smugglers Blues was a one-time episode, not a series finale, so it worked for that one episode to be out of Miami—plus only part of it takes place elsewhere, the rest is in Miami), barely included the majority of the cast, and has no conclusion or resolution! From what could have been done, and what the majority of fans were wanting or expecting...it was a complete & total disappointment & let-down! (P.S.—and “confused” emojis don’t make it any less true. ) Edited June 28, 2020 by ViceFanMan 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glades Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 I think, Miami Vice turned into a drama with five acts in the course of the show. And season 5 was act five. So it was quite logically that it ended with season 5. Even if it wasn´t decided officially at the begin of season 5 that it would end with this season. But when it wouldn´t have ended a season 6 would have be more like a new drama/show than just a continuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Glades said: I think, Miami Vice turned into a drama with five acts in the course of the show. And season 5 was act five. So it was quite logically that it ended with season 5. Even if it wasn´t decided officially at the begin of season 5 that it would end with this season. But when it wouldn´t have ended a season 6 would have be more like a new drama/show than just a continuation. I actually think that initially MV had the capabilities & potential of going on a lot further than 5 seasons! I don’t necessarily think it was purposely broken down into separate “acts”, of any kind. The problem basically was a change in writers, for whatever reason/s, and they began to & eventually did screw everything up! Michael Mann giving up the main production reins later on didn’t help either. By the time season 5 came along, the ratings and popularity had seriously and sadly dropped to where a season 6 was probably not going to happen. However, if they had seriously “cleaned” up the plots/scripts, the entire cast had agreed to come back for at least another season, they all truly worked on bringing the show back to what it used to be, & the network gave them one more chance...I think a season 6 definitely could’ve happened! But, it just didn’t work out that way. Edited June 28, 2020 by ViceFanMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glades Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 I remember Don Johnson mentioned twice in interviews that the story of Miami Vice was told to an end. Unfortunatly I don´t have the links to the interviews. One was short around the ending of Vice and DJ said that it was o.k. that MV end because the story was told to an end. In the other DJ compared MV to "Nash Bridges" and said that the story of "Nash Bridges" wasn´t told to a end so far in opposite to MV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Hanna Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 Could they have just ended the show after Season 3? Was that unheard of to end a show that was still in the top 30 of the year end ratings? (Considering all the key guys wanted to leave, I.e. Jan Hammer, Mann, Nicolella, DJ..etc.) DJ wanted to leave after S2, then he does S3....So why would he even agree to do S4? But then again he couldn't have known they were going to do stories involving an Alien, a Cryogenically frozen Rastafarian and Bull Semen. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) vor 7 Stunden schrieb ViceFanMan: Other immensely popular shows well before MV (or MASH for that matter) had been informed they were being cancelled, and even though they weren’t 2hr episodes, those shows were able to plan & have finales that were appropriate and/or had them go out on a proverbial good note. MV did not! I agree with all other things you said but it is a fact that hardly any show at all at that time (80s) had a finale. Name only one popular comparable cop or action drama (except MASH) that did! I remember only Magnum but this was a second attempt finale after they let Magnum die in season 7 finale and had to add an eight season due to viewer‘s protest. networks at that time deemed Finales as unnecessary. Only with Mash that set a huge record on the Nielsen ratings they recognized the value of a dedicated finale and started slowly in some popular cases to do it. Also the cancellation (Non renewal) often was decided after the season was over and there was no time to do a finale. Thus most series ended like Nash Bridges did. in 2001. There was a normal episode and then ... nothing. Just pulled the plug. I don’t like that either but it was a usual thing back then and let’s face it and stick to reality rather than talking ourselves in a Self imagination that only MV had a bad finale treatment. Most others did not have one at all! Edited June 28, 2020 by Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 vor 6 Minuten schrieb Vincent Hanna: Could they have just ended the show after Season 3? Was that unheard of to end a show that was still in the top 30 of the year end ratings? (Considering all the key guys wanted to leave, I.e. Jan Hammer, Mann, Nicolella, DJ..etc.) DJ wanted to leave after S2, then he does S3....So why would he even agree to do S4? But then again he couldn't have known they were going to do stories involving an Alien, a Cryogenically frozen Rastafarian and Bull Semen. Need to set some things straight here. DJ did not want to leave, he wanted more money! The show generated a lot and he earned 30.000 per episode, that was chump change and the producers should have made a raise proposal themselves instead of risking trouble (there was a delay then when filming El Viejo when DJ went on strike). And MV was still highly successful in season 3. Around 30 out of 110 series with a good rating among the most important target groups. No way you pull the plug on such a series after 50 episodes. And that many wanted to do something else after season 2 is a natural thing for creative people after two seasons of working around the clock! Once you could say I was part of MV first two seasons your opportunities-also income wise- were much better elsewhere! Look at other shows today: they often change crew or even show runners throughout its run! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Hanna Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Tom said: Need to set some things straight here. DJ did not want to leave, he wanted more money! The show generated a lot and he earned 30.000 per episode, that was chump change and the producers should have made a raise proposal themselves instead of risking trouble (there was a delay then when filming El Viejo when DJ went on strike). And MV was still highly successful in season 3. Around 30 out of 110 series with a good rating among the most important target groups. No way you pull the plug on such a series after 50 episodes. And that many wanted to do something else after season 2 is a natural thing for creative people after two seasons of working around the clock! Once you could say I was part of MV first two seasons your opportunities-also income wise- were much better elsewhere! Look at other shows today: they often change crew or even show runners throughout its run! Ah..okay thanks. So it was much later on when DJ had to turn down big movies because of commitments to the show? Like say it's the summer of 1987, Jan Hammer wants to leave the show, DJ wants to do movies and all of the old crew are gone. It seemed like a natural stopping point for the show. Then they start filming S4 with "Amen Send Money" and you can tell something is wrong immediately. That must have sucked for everyone involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) vor 53 Minuten schrieb Vincent Hanna: Ah..okay thanks. So it was much later on when DJ had to turn down big movies because of commitments to the show? Like say it's the summer of 1987, Jan Hammer wants to leave the show, DJ wants to do movies and all of the old crew are gone. It seemed like a natural stopping point for the show. Then they start filming S4 with "Amen Send Money" and you can tell something is wrong immediately. That must have sucked for everyone involved. I don’t know where you got your infos from but DJ DID Movies each year during the summer break (Long hot summer, Sweethearts Dance, ..). And he had no offers from big movie Blockbusters he could have turned down. and they opened the MV action spectacular at Universal studios in summer 87 so nobody wanted to stop the show. I don’t get your point. el Viejo was also not the best show of season3. Death and the Lady the 2nd show was great again. For me it’s not unusual that a show that skyrocketed to stardom within one year and is heavily based on Zeitgeist also can lose its audience as fast as it came. let alone bad scripting etc Edited June 28, 2020 by Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Hanna Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 Wasn't he forced to turn down The Untouchables and Die Hard due to MV? That would've been around 1987-ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 vor 2 Minuten schrieb Vincent Hanna: Wasn't he forced to turn down The Untouchables and Die Hard due to MV? That would've been around 1987-ish. No. Don’t let Hollywood press fool you. For every movie dozens of stars are allegedly in „discussion“ or even „signed the contract“ but not even half of that is true. DJ had an exclusive contract that’s true and everybody in the business knew that. That he was seriously considered by any producer for the quoted movies is just a press story. I also remember that they wrote Mohammed Ali was guest starring in 1987 in MV and that he had just wrapped up filming. And in 1992 they wrote MV will be continued with the old cast and that contracts have been signed already. This is all a big balloon of journalist imagination or bad research. Take your pick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren10 Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 Don says it's time to end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 vor 27 Minuten schrieb Bren10: Don says it's time to end. That was on 10 Feb 89 when they filmed Over the line. At this time the cancellation has been announced to cast and crew already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 6 hours ago, Tom said: I agree with all other things you said but it is a fact that hardly any show at all at that time (80s) had a finale. Name only one popular comparable cop or action drama (except MASH) that did! I remember only Magnum but this was a second attempt finale after they let Magnum die in season 7 finale and had to add an eight season due to viewer‘s protest. networks at that time deemed Finales as unnecessary. Only with Mash that set a huge record on the Nielsen ratings they recognized the value of a dedicated finale and started slowly in some popular cases to do it. Also the cancellation (Non renewal) often was decided after the season was over and there was no time to do a finale. Thus most series ended like Nash Bridges did. in 2001. There was a normal episode and then ... nothing. Just pulled the plug. I don’t like that either but it was a usual thing back then and let’s face it and stick to reality rather than talking ourselves in a Self imagination that only MV had a bad finale treatment. Most others did not have one at all! Very true. I don't recall Gunsmoke having a finale, and it was one of the longest-running TV series of all time, along with one of the most (if not THE most) influential of its genre. They did some TV movies, of course, but that was common for the '70s and '80s (and even into the '90s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Tom said: I agree with all other things you said but it is a fact that hardly any show at all at that time (80s) had a finale. Name only one popular comparable cop or action drama (except MASH) that did! I remember only Magnum but this was a second attempt finale after they let Magnum die in season 7 finale and had to add an eight season due to viewer‘s protest. networks at that time deemed Finales as unnecessary. Only with Mash that set a huge record on the Nielsen ratings they recognized the value of a dedicated finale and started slowly in some popular cases to do it. Also the cancellation (Non renewal) often was decided after the season was over and there was no time to do a finale. Thus most series ended like Nash Bridges did. in 2001. There was a normal episode and then ... nothing. Just pulled the plug. I don’t like that either but it was a usual thing back then and let’s face it and stick to reality rather than talking ourselves in a Self imagination that only MV had a bad finale treatment. Most others did not have one at all! Like I said before, they were usually not 2hr movie length finales, true. But other shows prior to MASH knew they were being canceled and they planned & did finale episodes. Perry Mason, original Hawaii Five-0, Charlie’s Angels, etc...are a few examples. Magnum is also one! But, by the time MV ended other shows and networks were starting to do some finales if they knew the shows were going to be canceled before the end of that season. MV is definitely a show that could have and should have done a much better finale, especially with it being 2hrs! Edited June 28, 2020 by ViceFanMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 vor 2 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan: Like I said before, they were usually not 2hr movie length finales, true. But other shows prior to MASH knew they were being canceled and they planned & did finale episodes. Perry Mason, original Hawaii Five-0, Charlie’s Angels, etc...are a few examples. But, by the time MV ended other shows and networks were starting to do some finales if they knew the shows were going to be canceled before the end of that season. MV is definitely a show that could have and should have done a much better finale, especially with it being 2hrs! As I said before In the 80s hardly any show except Magnum and MV had finales. Your examples are all 70s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tom said: As I said before In the 80s hardly any show except Magnum and MV had finales. Your examples are all 70s. But that’s my point, if they were already doing some finale ideas in the 70s—they darn well should’ve and could’ve been doing them in the 80s, especially with the show as popular and impactful as MV! If a show doesn’t know till right at the end they have been canceled, I understand why a finale might not really happen. A lot of shows got canceled right when they were not expecting it and so that’s why we didn’t really see a lot of planned finales. Shows that knew were starting to do some finales. MV definitely should have done a much better one than what was done! Edited June 28, 2020 by ViceFanMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 vor 4 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan: But that’s my point, if they were already doing some finale ideas in the 70s—they darn well should’ve and could’ve been doing them in the 80s, especially with the show as popular and impactful as MV! If a show doesn’t know till right at the end they have been canceled, I understand why a finale might not really happen. A lot of shows got canceled right when they were not expecting it and so that’s why we didn’t really see a lot of planned finales. Shows that knew were starting to do some finales. MV definitely should have done a much better one than what was done! Whatever your point is it does not fit to my original statement - mine was that when MV aired finales were highly unusual. That is a fact given by the low number of series with a final episode as we understand it. If they knew that they were cancelled or not does not make a difference if there was no story conclusion of the series. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, Tom said: Whatever your point is it does not fit to my original statement - mine was that when MV aired finales were highly unusual. That is a fact given by the low number of series with a final episode as we understand it. If they knew that they were cancelled or not does not make a difference if there was no story conclusion of the series. I’m sorry but I disagree...and my point does fit in with what you were saying. Finales, though not as many 2hr ones, were happening...well before MASH or the 80s. Again, a lot of shows got cancelled before they were able to plan a finale...but the ones that knew in advance a lot of times were doing one. Again MV was a show that definitely deserved a 2hr finale, and it deserved & needed a much better one than sadly what was used & done! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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