Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 23 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said: To me Tubbs seems certainly more mature for sure but still combative if needs be... Yeah, I think saying Tubbs matured is pretty accurate, and that he picked his spots more when it came to conflict as the series moved forward. I mean, 'Red Tape' was just an act (although I love his performance in the credit union), but I'd say he thought more things through before reacting. He's still pretty feisty when the situation calls for it, I also agree with that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 Don't forget, too, Tubbs had already had his angry young man phase when he came to Miami in the first place. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdiegolo78 Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 31 minutes ago, Robbie C. said: Don't forget, too, Tubbs had already had his angry young man phase when he came to Miami in the first place. Yes and he slowly came out of it as the show progressed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDragon86 Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said: I'm fond of 'Little Miss Dangerous', but I have to agree that the episode is basically waiting for Jackie to be found out as the killer. I found 'Death and the Lady' to be intense & frightening, plus I didn't really ever know where things were headed. With the Jackie character, it was just a matter of time for her. I admit that Season 4 is all over the joint, but for me it's more unfocused than straight-up terrible. To me it tries to do EVERYTHING, and to the max, so it's like the episode is going to really work or really flounder. 'Child's Play', 'Vote of Confidence', 'Hell Hath No Fury...', 'Death and the Lady', 'Baseballs of Death', 'Honor Among Thieves', 'Indian Wars'...those are some of my favorite episodes of this season, even with all of the unfocused extremes being bandied about in terms of overall tone. Its not so much the story that gives LMD its power, its Jackie's character. I find it fascinating that this beautiful young lady kills so brutality and without hesitation, look at the way she killed that guy then burnt the car out, frightful stuff. Also you can imagine not only was she not loved but I think she was sexually abused as a child going from parents to parents. What is also different like Dollarhyde's character in Manhunter is you can sort of sympathize with the killer. I felt so sorry for her and her performance was beyond convincing. Her character in my opinion is so captivating and this episode contains the most powerful ending and in my view Fiona acting was the best from any guest star in they entire run. Edited March 2, 2021 by RedDragon86 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said: Its not so much the story that gives LMD its power, its Jackie's character. I find it fascinating that this beautiful young lady kills so brutality and without hesitation, look at the way she killed that guy then burnt the car out, frightful stuff. Also you can imagine not only was she not loved but I think she was sexually abused as a child going from parents to parents. What is also different like Dollarhyde's character in Manhunter is you can sort of sympathize with the killer. I felt so sorry for her and her performance was beyond convincing. Her character in my opinion is so captivating and this episode contains the most powerful ending and in my view Fiona acting was the best from any guest star in they entire run. I fully agree...and I remember “psychoanalyzing” Jackie and her motives/reasons for why she did what she did, on the LMD thread. This episode, D&TL, is also very “deep” and “powerful” episode! Very captivating but tragic stuff. Both of these are episodes I can watch over & over, and still find them intriguing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 5 hours ago, RedDragon86 said: Its not so much the story that gives LMD its power, its Jackie's character. I find it fascinating that this beautiful young lady kills so brutality and without hesitation, look at the way she killed that guy then burnt the car out, frightful stuff. Also you can imagine not only was she not loved but I think she was sexually abused as a child going from parents to parents. What is also different like Dollarhyde's character in Manhunter is you can sort of sympathize with the killer. I felt so sorry for her and her performance was beyond convincing. Her character in my opinion is so captivating and this episode contains the most powerful ending and in my view Fiona acting was the best from any guest star in they entire run. Oh, I agree about Jackie, I felt sorry for her and totally understood where Tubbs was coming from in regards to her well-being and welfare. When he asked Jackie "Haven't you ever had a friend, someone who believed in you?" (that line speaks to me, as I've tried to help certain people I've gotten to know and needed to be reached; it's hard & sad sometimes) that answer would likely be no. And yeah, I think it's probably that she was abused when she was little. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 7 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said: Oh, I agree about Jackie, I felt sorry for her and totally understood where Tubbs was coming from in regards to her well-being and welfare. When he asked Jackie "Haven't you ever had a friend, someone who believed in you?" (that line speaks to me, as I've tried to help certain people I've gotten to know and needed to be reached; it's hard & sad sometimes) that answer would likely be no. And yeah, I think it's probably that she was abused when she was little. I think both characters/episodes are sad & tragic...one chose killing to purge anger or hurt built up, while the other allowed herself to be taken advantage of & destroyed (literally & figuratively) by sick perverts. Even if she was dying, it was still a horrible way to go, and it was very tragic & destructive for her family. The deep, psychological aspects of both of these episodes (LMD and D&TL) are what I think are intriguing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said: I think both characters/episodes are sad & tragic...one chose killing to purge anger or hurt built up, while the other allowed herself to be taken advantage of & destroyed (literally & figuratively) by sick perverts. Even if she was dying, it was still a horrible way to go, and it was very tragic & destructive for her family. The deep, psychological aspects of both of these episodes (LMD and D&TL) are what I think are intriguing. I do think there's a richer story in "Death and the Lady", but I agree that both Jackie & Amy Ryder have compelling and tragic circumstances that one could really sympathize & empathize with. I feel that both both episode have a haunting sadness in common, except I find "Death and the Lady" meaner and more frightening, since there's more not really being told or only being implied. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said: I do think there's a richer story in "Death and the Lady", but I agree that both Jackie & Amy Ryder have compelling and tragic circumstances that one could really sympathize & empathize with. I feel that both both episode have a haunting sadness in common, except I find "Death and the Lady" meaner and more frightening, since there's more not really being told or only being implied. Actually we pretty much know Amy Ryder’s issues or part of why she chose to do what she did...whereas with Jackie, we really don’t know as much (other than guessing or assuming she had an abusive time in her foster homes). But, I agree...there’s probably a lot more with both characters/episodes than what we were told or shown. That’s what makes these so fascinating...not really because they’re “dark” & macabre, but trying to figure out why! Edited March 2, 2021 by ViceFanMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 36 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said: Actually we pretty much know Amy Ryder’s issues or part of why she chose to do what she did...whereas with Jackie, we really don’t know as much (other than guessing or assuming she had an abusive time in her foster homes). But, I agree...there’s probably a lot more with both characters/episodes than what we were told or shown. That’s what makes these so fascinating...not really because they’re “dark” & macabre, but trying to figure out why! What I meant about the story of 'Death and the Lady' was that I didn't think the story was apparent, that how things develop it can feels as if maybe a lot happened or nothing happened other than the film being made. Now, in 'Little Miss Dangerous' the viewer is being shown what's happening, we know while law enforcement is trying to find out. That's what I find most different about the episodes, but what I can see as similar are the tough circumstances for both Jackie & Amy Ryder, except one becomes a disturbed killer while the other becomes a resigned victim. I completely agree that both episodes are both dark, and because of aspects and secrets we don't know. Wow, it looks like I'm going to have to comment soon on 'Honor Among thieves?' soon, since the entire aspect of the killer there I find disturbing ("ah cha cha"). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 8 hours ago, RedDragon86 said: Its not so much the story that gives LMD its power, its Jackie's character. I find it fascinating that this beautiful young lady kills so brutality and without hesitation, look at the way she killed that guy then burnt the car out, frightful stuff. Also you can imagine not only was she not loved but I think she was sexually abused as a child going from parents to parents. What is also different like Dollarhyde's character in Manhunter is you can sort of sympathize with the killer. I felt so sorry for her and her performance was beyond convincing. Her character in my opinion is so captivating and this episode contains the most powerful ending and in my view Fiona acting was the best from any guest star in they entire run. Doesn't have much to do with DATL, but I think quite a bit of the pull of LMD has to do with Frank Military's script. He has a knack for this kind of thing (and clearly did back then as well). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Robbie C. said: Doesn't have much to do with DATL, but I think quite a bit of the pull of LMD has to do with Frank Military's script. He has a knack for this kind of thing (and clearly did back then as well). No doubt, I think Frank military did some interesting things with his two Vice scripts, as well as the character of Ace in 'Nobody Lives Forever' ("You don't look so bad...have another". Wicked). He was also in "Last Exit to Brooklyn": Jennifer Jason Leigh is the lead there, and she's she's an all-time favorite of mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDragon86 Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 "Little Miss Dangerous" is relatable to DATL because the premise were both soaked in sleaze. DATL tried to give off the same vibe as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 36 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said: "Little Miss Dangerous" is relatable to DATL because the premise were both soaked in sleaze. DATL tried to give off the same vibe as well. Sleaze and tragedy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted March 4, 2021 Report Share Posted March 4, 2021 On 3/3/2021 at 9:16 AM, ViceFanMan said: Sleaze and tragedy. There's no fun either (nor would I require any), like in the 1984 film "Angel", when our esteemed John Diehl ran around playing a serial killer (he has one line in the entire film: "It hurts"). "Angel" is sleazy but also tame, while 'Little Miss Dangerous' & 'Death and the Lady' are just as you said, sleazy & tragic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apocalypse Posted May 16, 2021 Report Share Posted May 16, 2021 Just watched this episode today. I gotta say this is very strong one, easily goes to my personal top-10. Definitely one of the most underrated episodes ever. It has great atmosphere and great acting from Don and also from the guy who plays Milton Glantz. The ending is classic. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted May 16, 2021 Report Share Posted May 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, apocalypse said: Just watched this episode today. I gotta say this is very strong one, easily goes to my personal top-10. Definitely one of the most underrated episodes ever. It has great atmosphere and great acting from Don and also from the guy who plays Milton Glantz. The ending is classic. I don’t know if I’d call the ending “classic”...it was a little bizarre , lol, but totally agree—superb episode, definitely underrated, and in my top 10! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detective_Crockett Posted May 16, 2021 Report Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 hour ago, apocalypse said: Just watched this episode today. I gotta say this is very strong one, easily goes to my personal top-10. Definitely one of the most underrated episodes ever. It has great atmosphere and great acting from Don and also from the guy who plays Milton Glantz. The ending is classic. How ironic, I watched this one today as well. Yeah, brilliant episode. One of Season 4's standouts rather than blows. A rare smile from Castillo as well. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdiegolo78 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 21 hours ago, apocalypse said: the guy who plays Milton Glantz. yeah Paul Guilfoyle is great. I recently watched him in 'the local stigmatic' short, starring with Al Pacino. They both pulled a funny cockney London accent . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdiegolo78 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 20 hours ago, Detective_Crockett said: How ironic, I watched this one today as well. Yeah, brilliant episode. One of Season 4's standouts rather than blows. A rare smile from Castillo as well. Yeah, this episode kinda grew on me overtime. Didn't really like it when i watched it the first time in the 90s. Yeah Castillo smiled when he saw the cat in the squad room ("what's it doing here?"). When i think about this episode, the first thing that comes to mind is Crockett slapping the crap out of a bewildered Milton Glantz . And the night drive leading to that scene of course. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillio Martin Imbasciati Posted May 24, 2021 Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 On 5/17/2021 at 2:09 PM, sdiegolo78 said: Yeah, this episode kinda grew on me overtime. Didn't really like it when i watched it the first time in the 90s. Yeah Castillo smiled when he saw the cat in the squad room ("what's it doing here?"). When i think about this episode, the first thing that comes to mind is Crockett slapping the crap out of a bewildered Milton Glantz . And the night drive leading to that scene of course. I really like how the cat was seen later on in Castillo's office; one of those subtle, neat things for me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) Where do I even begin with this episode? This is definitely one of the most “dark”, tragic, bizarre...but captivating, fascinating, amazing episodes of the season (as starting with Season 4 there weren’t as many anymore) as well as the series! This is definitely another 80s neo-noir episode & one of my favorites! Here’s some of my original thoughts & some additions: Love this episode! It's wild, bizarre, tragic, eye-opening, captivating, and mesmerizing! Ahh...the old urban legend of a "snuff" film turning out to be a real snuff flick! I’ve read before that supposedly the FBI claims there’s is no such thing as a real snuff film where someone is actually killed (although supposedly “fake” snuff films do exist for the sick & disturbed). I don’t believe them, and sadly would not be surprised if real snuff films have been made before. But, several shows have done an episode regarding the idea of a snuff film turning out to be real--Silk Stalkings and CSI to name a couple. But, it always makes for an interesting episode and MV does not disappoint! This episode really delved into the seedy, destructive, realistic, and I'll even venture to say evil aspects of porn, and the disgusting lengths some will go to to make a buck. The acting, especially by Don Johnson, was superb! I love the scene where Crockett really looks at the video of the porn movie, and realizes by the girl's eyes that...she's dead! I thought guest-star Penelope Ann Miller also did an outstanding, heart-wrenching job! I loved the wild plot twists, and trying to figure out which girl was the dead one (Laurie Swan, Amy Rider, or Margo), or if there really was a dead girl? The bizarre and whacked out announcer at the beginning, with the gold hands sewn on his suit coat, was an eye-popping, majorly perverted, but an interesting touch to really draw you in from the start! Guest-star Paul Guilfoyle is a superb actor...and I've seen him in several other things, but he'll always be Capt. Jim Brass on CSI to me. But, he is outstanding in this episode as porn producer/artist Milton Glantz! He's perfectly bizarre, sleezy, majorly creepy...even possibly mentally disturbed! But, anyone who agrees to actually have a girl killed (dying of cancer or not) in a sick porn movie is not exactly running on all cylinders. The other guest-stars in this were also awesome...from Miguel Ferrer, Kelly Lynch, Penelope Ann Miller (as I stated earlier above), Michael David Morrison, etc... The colors of the sets, inside rooms, buildings, lighting, neon lights, etc...were all superb!! I love the colors of Glanz's (Guilfoyle) photography studio...where he took that bum from the outside alley and wrapped him up in plastic, splattering him with red paint to simulate blood. Besides that "twisted" scene, the teal walls/ceiling and pink chair & love seat totally made that room! I really liked most of the colors and lighting used for this episode--very captivating, wild, and eye-catching. Also, I laughed my butt off at the bag lady in the alley...as Crockett was showing up at Glantz's and his camera people were taking the bum inside. What the heck was up with her walk? She just kind of had this bizarre, spastic-like waddle from side-to-side as she drug this garbage bag behind her. The music in this one was outstanding! As always Jan Hammer's themes and songs were awesome and truly MV! But the Depeche Mode songs in this were absolutely superb--Never Let Me Down Again and Pleasure, Little Treasure! But, I love Depeche Mode period...so of course I'm going to enjoy those. But, other awesome songs included the "haunting" The Edge of Town by The Truth, Vet For the Insane by Fields of the Nephilim, and The Story Never Ends by Naked Prey. However, one aspect that didn't set quite right for me was the pastels missing from the fashion or wardrobe. Everyone seems to be dressed in darker tones. But, I think this was around the time that other producers were changing things--including the colors of the clothes. But, I do like Crockett's hairstyle better than season 3, and I also like the black Wayfarers he wearing...instead of those other strange black Pearsol sunglasses from season 3. These shades aren't tortoise shell like seasons 1&2...but at least they're Wayfarers. I know this has been brought up & discussed multiple times before...but, I also thought the end was a little over-the-top and strange. I mean, of course we all understand why Crockett would want to just show up and beat the "crap" out of Glantz...but really?? Glantz was not some scuzzy, low-life drug dealer that would never press charges because he didn't want to have police attention. He was unfortunately high-society and had tons of high-up connections--from politicians, lawyers, judges, probably the mayor, etc... Crockett would have been arrested, fired from the OCB, and probably sent to prison for assault & battery and intent to do bodily harm. The last scene of him handing the bum (same homeless drunk Glantz used earlier for his plastic wrap project) Glantz's leg porn award was kind of "appropriate" and even humorous. In my opinion, that kind of award belonged in the “gutter”! Also...was it ever explained why Gina and Trudy were at the erotic film festival to begin with at the beginning? I understood the introduction of Milton Glantz and his snuff film Death and the Lady...but then all of a sudden Gina and Trudy are there. Were they into violent, erotic porn (after all later Gina says she's seen Glantz's film and he as a nice touch ) ...or were maybe they there to look for drugs or illegal-age porn stuff? Just never quite figured that one out... But, overall this episode was superb and one of my favorites of season 4 & the series! I originally gave it a 9...but if I could bump it up to a 10, I would! A cool montage of the episode I found online! Edited July 12, 2021 by ViceFanMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 One of the highlights of the whole series for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 41 minutes ago, Dadrian said: One of the highlights of the whole series for me. Mine too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDragon86 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) The "Shadow and the Dark" footage will always bug me and it could easily have been avoided, this is a video I edited today without seeing Sonny's season 3 look in his car. Edited July 12, 2021 by RedDragon86 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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