Episode #71 "Death And The Lady"

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Well cops get away with beating people up all the time and Sonny didn't really hurt him all that much.  I think Glantz actually got off on what Sonny did to him.  His final reaction is almost post-orgasmic.  Plus in Glantz's mind it would be a moral victory to cause the upstanding cop Sonny to finally lose control.  Sonny is beating him for his own form of gratification even if it's in the name of justice.  That's part of what makes this ep so disturbing.  Sonny is too upset to drive.  I think he saw something in himself during the beating and he is frustrated by it..  He storms off leaving the car as a weird form of protest.  Kind of like a prisoner trashing his own cell.

I don’t necessarily buy into all the media twisting and fabrication of how cops are always going around beating people up everywhere.   However, there are some that have...but not usually on millionaire, high-connected celebrity type people like Glantz, that could have your job in 1-2 phone calls...probably arrested too. I don’t know about Glantz and the orgasm thing, lol  but he was “sick” & perverted enough to have liked it I guess. I don’t know...the ending just seemed a little goofy...but overall the episode is one of the series’ best!  

[Bren10]

I know we don't want to get into this so I'll just say this carefully.  To deny police brutality is to deny reality.  No, not every cop does it.  Your class argument proves a point.  Police who do this will often do it to those who have no real recourse and in areas that are often disadvantaged.  So how many intances simply go unreported?  You don't have to believe it, but how many excessive police shootings, not beatings, but shootings have occured in the last 5 yrs?  And often on tape?  Then ask yourself how often you hear about the consequences individual officers suffer, or the severity of said consequences as opposed what you or me would suffer.  Not a sermon, just a thought.

As for our friend Glantz,

Yes, Sonny takes a risk here as far as repercussions go.  But both he and Tubbs have done questionable things before and will again while enforcing the law.  But once again I argue Glantz is not interested in retribution against Sonny here.  Causing a man like Sonny to lose control and enjoy inflicting pain is retribution enough  This will be their dirty little secret Sonny can't admit to. Besides, in a court of law and with a good lawyer, Sonny wouldn't be in that much trouble all told.  He only slaps the man and I think compensation would be the issue.   I suggest watching the scene again.

Glantz offers no resistance.  He doesn't attempt to defend himself.  He doesn't try to run.  He lets Sonny take him on this painful ride.  He is getting to experience for real what he's been fascinated with and fantasizing about.  And he doesn't scream in pain.

When Sonny is done with him, he isn't crying or wimpering.  He isn't screaming or threatening revenge.  He isnt't laid out.  He sits breathing heavily,  contemplating a euphoric experience.  (remind you of anything?)  Sonny understands this and stomps off, realizing the message of his beating is lost on Glantz because he is indeed sick.  

This is the kind of episode that makes me want to take a shower afterward, but that's the point.

[Bren10]

We all know about the big "blooper" with Sonny's night drive footage being reused, but is it possible this was somehow intentional?  At the last moment the 4th wall is broken with Sonny looking directly into the camera.  Could this be Sonny looking at and confronting his past self?  We know he is haunted by the picture incident in his locker room in his past as well so he has been doing some self examination.  I mean how hard could it have been to film a few shots of DJ at the time?  Or use other S4 footage instead? (I know maybe they didn't have any, but still).  Anyway, this is one way to think of the scene if you don' want to be taken out of it by the inconsistency.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Bren10
Syntax

[vicegirl85]

I like the direction you're going with this, and who knows, maybe you're right.

 

[Matt5]

Great episode, I love this one!

[ViceFanMan]

On 10/1/2018 at 4:55 AM, Bren10 said:

I know we don't want to get into this so I'll just say this carefully.  To deny police brutality is to deny reality.  No, not every cop does it.  Your class argument proves a point.  Police who do this will often do it to those who have no real recourse and in areas that are often disadvantaged.  So how many intances simply go unreported?  You don't have to believe it, but how many excessive police shootings, not beatings, but shootings have occured in the last 5 yrs?  And often on tape?  Then ask yourself how often you hear about the consequences individual officers suffer, or the severity of said consequences as opposed what you or me would suffer.  Not a sermon, just a thought.

As for our friend Glantz,

Yes, Sonny takes a risk here as far as repercussions go.  But both he and Tubbs have done questionable things before and will again while enforcing the law.  But once again I argue Glantz is not interested in retribution against Sonny here.  Causing a man like Sonny to lose control and enjoy inflicting pain is retribution enough  This will be their dirty little secret Sonny can't admit to. Besides, in a court of law and with a good lawyer, Sonny wouldn't be in that much trouble all told.  He only slaps the man and I think compensation would be the issue.   I suggest watching the scene again.

Glantz offers no resistance.  He doesn't attempt to defend himself.  He doesn't try to run.  He lets Sonny take him on this painful ride.  He is getting to experience for real what he's been fascinated with and fantasizing about.  And he doesn't scream in pain.

When Sonny is done with him, he isn't crying or wimpering.  He isn't screaming or threatening revenge.  He isnt't laid out.  He sits breathing heavily,  contemplating a euphoric experience.  (remind you of anything?)  Sonny understands this and stomps off, realizing the message of his beating is lost on Glantz because he is indeed sick.  

This is the kind of episode that makes me want to take a shower afterward, but that's the point.

I realize and know that police brutality, excessive shootings do happen. I’m not denying that at all...for decades some big city police depts have long been known to have major corruption such as L.A. and Chicago...and that involves a lot more than just racism. Some areas of those places maybe worse than others, too. People living in those areas probably do experience more “strong-arm” police involvement (whether justified or not) because those are known drug, gang, & crime areas.

But I also know the media tends to twist and take things WAY out of proportion, exaggerate them, report things as “fact” before all the true facts are known, or flat out fabricate for some kind of political agenda. A lot of police hatred and division across the country has been caused by this. It’s made it seem like cops are out to shoot and beat everyone up everywhere. There’s always exceptions...but 8 to 9 times out of 10 if you are not doing anything you’re not supposed to be doing, not hanging around the wrong places or associating with the wrong people, you’re not probably going to have to worry about it. The cops aren’t going to worry or care about you, because they don’t have time to screw around with you, and you’re not a concern.

As for Glantz...he seems more in shock when Crockett starts hitting and slapping him.  He doesn’t offer any resistance or try to fight back, this is true. But again it seems to me it’s more in shock as he was not expecting that from Crockett.  Perhaps he did enjoy it, got off on it?? But the expression on his face is more in surprise, in my opinion, than pleasure. 

I think Crockett does realize the beating didn’t really help or change anything...Glantz won’t be arrested or charged with anything and Sonny stomps off in disgust with the whole situation. I wouldn’t necessarily say it was a “dirty” little secret between Glantz and Crockett...the whole thing was sick and Crockett was just angry & lashing out.

Maybe Glantz wouldn’t turn Sonny in...but I still say in reality he would have. Regardless if Glantz got some kind of sick pleasure from Sonny slapping him around or not, Crockett could still continue trying to prove something about the murder of the girl...or try and find some other crime to nail him on. I still think that Glantz would try to get Crockett arrested or at least fired to stop him from doing anything else. He had all the right connections and power to do so. 

I just feel the ending is really bizarre, and doesn’t quite make sense. In my opinion it  could have been done better. The episode as a whole is amazing, shocking, makes you feel dirty, but also captivates & fascinates you...and yes, all of that was the point & it was made superbly! It’s one of my favorites of the entire series! But, I still think the ending could’ve been handled a little better. 

[Bren10]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

I realize and know that police brutality, excessive shootings do happen. I’m not denying that at all...for decades some big city police depts have long been known to have major corruption such as L.A. and Chicago...and that involves a lot more than just racism. Some areas of those places maybe worse than others, too. People living in those areas probably do experience more “strong-arm” police involvement (whether justified or not) because those are known drug, gang, & crime areas.

But I also know the media tends to twist and take things WAY out of proportion, exaggerate them, report things as “fact” before all the true facts are known, or flat out fabricate for some kind of political agenda. A lot of police hatred and division across the country has been caused by this. It’s made it seem like cops are out to shoot and beat everyone up everywhere. There’s always exceptions...but 8 to 9 times out of 10 if you are not doing anything you’re not supposed to be doing, not hanging around the wrong places or associating with the wrong people, you’re not probably going to have to worry about it. The cops aren’t going to worry or care about you, because they don’t have time to screw around with you, and you’re not a concern.

As for Glantz...he seems more in shock when Crockett starts hitting and slapping him.  He doesn’t offer any resistance or try to fight back, this is true. But again it seems to me it’s more in shock as he was not expecting that from Crockett.  Perhaps he did enjoy it, got off on it?? But the expression on his face is more in surprise, in my opinion, than pleasure. 

I think Crockett does realize the beating didn’t really help or change anything...Glantz won’t be arrested or charged with anything and Sonny stomps off in disgust with the whole situation. I wouldn’t necessarily say it was a “dirty” little secret between Glantz and Crockett...the whole thing was sick and Crockett was just angry & lashing out.

Maybe Glantz wouldn’t turn Sonny in...but I still say in reality he would have. Regardless if Glantz got some kind of sick pleasure from Sonny slapping him around or not, Crockett could still continue trying to prove something about the murder of the girl...or try and find some other crime to nail him on. I still think that Glantz would try to get Crockett arrested or at least fired to stop him from doing anything else. He had all the right connections and power to do so. 

I just feel the ending is really bizarre, and doesn’t quite make sense. In my opinion it  could have been done better. The episode as a whole is amazing, shocking, makes you feel dirty, but also captivates & fascinates you...and yes, all of that was the point & it was made superbly! It’s one of my favorites of the entire series! But, I still think the ending could’ve been handled a little better. 

The media does play a role, yes, but it is mostly the bad behavior of police that makes them look bad and causes the bad feelings you describe.  Also the lack of visible consequences for that bad conduct.  I live right near Baltimore and felt the repercussions of the Freddie Gray case and believe me, the police needed no help in looking bad.  You also have to understand that police excess is nothing new but there are many more ways to publicize it when it does happen and much more immediately, so I don't blame the media entirely for reporting something they didn't used to report.  Maybe police should police themselves a little more then?  Because usually when one bad cop misbehaves there are 2 or 3 good cops standing by watching and doing nothing about it.  You say police don't worry about you if all things are equal and you're right usually.  But there are times when they aren't equal such as when crime is slow.  Police work under a quota system and if they don't make so many arrests/stops then it looks like they aren't doing their job, so they will go out of their way to be "concerned" about you.  I have known many people stopped for speeding who weren't speeding and I know people who were stopped for petty reasons or for no reason at all.  And if you say the wrong thing in those kinds of situations you may never make it home.  If the media shedding light on this deters it from happening then I say more power to the media in this case.  I want to make it clear I am not anti-cop.  My grandfather was a DC cop during some ugly times.  But I expect any authority, cop or otherwise, to adhere to the same conduct that they would expect of me.  And they should pay the consequences if they don't, just like I would.

As for Glantz, again I just have to agree to disagree.  Glantz's rebuttal or Sonny's pressing the case really isn't the point of this episode anyway.  This is a psychological story about exploitation, voyeurism, violence and all the dirty issues we don't talk about.  The actual murder mystery is not the point as much as what is happening internally with the characters.  We outwardly express disgust at some things and yet harbour a morbid fascination for those very same things thus we are all culpable in their perpetuation.  If we weren't, then they would not exist  Glantz is but one artist expressing these things externally.  That is Glantz's point to Sonny and it bothers him because of the picture on the locker room wall.  Once again, Glantz wouldn't care about getting even with Sonny for slapping him.  He wants to prove to Sonny that he has the same capacity for violence and ugliness as he does and he gets his vindication when Sonny loses control.  He tells Sonny "We're the same" at the party and he wants to prove it.

[vicegirl85]

8 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

(snipped)   As for Glantz, again I just have to agree to disagree.  Glantz's rebuttal or Sonny's pressing the case really isn't the point of this episode anyway.  This is a psychological story about exploitation, voyeurism, violence and all the dirty issues we don't talk about.  The actual murder mystery is not the point as much as what is happening internally with the characters.  We outwardly express disgust at some things and yet harbour a morbid fascination for those very same things thus we are all culpable in their perpetuation.  If we weren't, then they would not exist  Glantz is but one artist expressing these things externally.  That is Glantz's point to Sonny and it bothers him because of the picture on the locker room wall.  Once again, Glantz wouldn't care about getting even with Sonny for slapping him.  He wants to prove to Sonny that he has the same capacity for violence and ugliness as he does and he gets his vindication when Sonny loses control.  He tells Sonny "We're the same" at the party and he wants to prove it.

You expressed what I feel about this ending, but you said it much better than I could have.  

[ViceFanMan]

11 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

The media does play a role, yes, but it is mostly the bad behavior of police that makes them look bad and causes the bad feelings you describe.  Also the lack of visible consequences for that bad conduct.  I live right near Baltimore and felt the repercussions of the Freddie Gray case and believe me, the police needed no help in looking bad.  You also have to understand that police excess is nothing new but there are many more ways to publicize it when it does happen and much more immediately, so I don't blame the media entirely for reporting something they didn't used to report.  Maybe police should police themselves a little more then?  Because usually when one bad cop misbehaves there are 2 or 3 good cops standing by watching and doing nothing about it.  You say police don't worry about you if all things are equal and you're right usually.  But there are times when they aren't equal such as when crime is slow.  Police work under a quota system and if they don't make so many arrests/stops then it looks like they aren't doing their job, so they will go out of their way to be "concerned" about you.  I have known many people stopped for speeding who weren't speeding and I know people who were stopped for petty reasons or for no reason at all.  And if you say the wrong thing in those kinds of situations you may never make it home.  If the media shedding light on this deters it from happening then I say more power to the media in this case.  I want to make it clear I am not anti-cop.  My grandfather was a DC cop during some ugly times.  But I expect any authority, cop or otherwise, to adhere to the same conduct that they would expect of me.  And they should pay the consequences if they don't, just like I would.

As for Glantz, again I just have to agree to disagree.  Glantz's rebuttal or Sonny's pressing the case really isn't the point of this episode anyway.  This is a psychological story about exploitation, voyeurism, violence and all the dirty issues we don't talk about.  The actual murder mystery is not the point as much as what is happening internally with the characters.  We outwardly express disgust at some things and yet harbour a morbid fascination for those very same things thus we are all culpable in their perpetuation.  If we weren't, then they would not exist  Glantz is but one artist expressing these things externally.  That is Glantz's point to Sonny and it bothers him because of the picture on the locker room wall.  Once again, Glantz wouldn't care about getting even with Sonny for slapping him.  He wants to prove to Sonny that he has the same capacity for violence and ugliness as he does and he gets his vindication when Sonny loses control.  He tells Sonny "We're the same" at the party and he wants to prove it.

I agree and understand that police excess is nothing new, and there are ways to publicize it. But the “quota” policy is primarily with things such as speeding or vehicle violations. I too have known of and experienced myself, un-justified tickets! I actually turned what I call my Psycho-Hypo (highway patrolman) in on an official complaint once! I don’t love or trust every cop that comes along.

But I also understand how the liberal media likes to twist things around or flat out fabricate to try and push their political agenda. Again...they’ve made it seem cops are out to kill or destroy everyone everywhere. Again...there’s always exceptions, but most of the time if you’re not doing things you’re not supposed to, or associating with druggies or criminals (like it or not there is such a thing as guilt by association) then you most likely won’t be dealing with cops.

We’ll probably agree to disagree when it comes to Glantz. I know that this is more psychological than just your run-of-the-mill murder case...but that’s the thing, Crockett took it more personally than what I think Glantz originally thought he would. Yes, Glantz said “We’re the same”, to taunt Crockett. Whether Glantz actually believed that or was just saying it to mess with Sonny, I don’t really know? But, Sonny actually cared about this girl and her murder...something Glantz obviously did not. Glantz wasn’t counting on that...that the proverbial picture on the locker room wall would evoke anger & disgust. He assumed Crockett would just shrug his shoulders (or privately even snicker) and think ‘Oh well...another slut got herself killed.’ 

But Crockett actually cared and pushed to try and prove Glantz guilty. I still say Glantz was more shocked by Crockett’s attack than anything else. In the episode Glantz didn’t do anything about Sonny beating him...at least nothing we ever knew about. But in reality I still say he would have...just to let him know I can do whatever I want and you can’t do anything about it. I have the power and political connections. Also to stop Crockett from focusing anything else on him, or from trying to investigate Amy Ryder’s murder any further...again, something Glantz wasn’t counting on or thinking would happen. He didn’t know Crockett like he thought he did. 

[vicegirl85]

22 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

(snipped) Crockett took it more personally than what I think Glantz originally thought he would. Yes, Glantz said “We’re the same”, to taunt Crockett. Whether Glantz actually believed that or was just saying it to mess with Sonny, I don’t really know? But, Sonny actually cared about this girl and her murder...something Glantz obviously did not. Glantz wasn’t counting on that...that the proverbial picture on the locker room wall would evoke anger & disgust. He assumed Crockett would just shrug his shoulders (or privately even snicker) and think ‘Oh well...another slut got herself killed.’ 

But Crockett actually cared and pushed to try and prove Glantz guilty. I still say Glantz was more shocked by Crockett’s attack than anything else. In the episode Glantz didn’t do anything about Sonny beating him...at least nothing we ever knew about. But in reality I still say he would have...just to let him know I can do whatever I want and you can’t do anything about it. I have the power and political connections. Also to stop Crockett from focusing anything else on him, or from trying to investigate Amy Ryder’s murder any further...again, something Glantz wasn’t counting on or thinking would happen. He didn’t know Crockett like he thought he did. 

I think your comment is well-taken as well.  Probably Glantz may have had mixed feelings/ multiple thoughts or reactions to Crockett's attack.  I have to admit, I did not get the feeling Glantz reacted by planning to exact revenge on Crockett as you discussed.  My feeling was that he did "get off" on the beating to an extent, and that as he thought about it afterward, he may have decided Crockett wasn't predictable enough to be deterred from further investigations.  I felt like Glantz may have decided to let well enough alone.  He had learned that Crockett could be unpredictable, but if Glantz laid low and didn't call attention to himself for awhile, Crockett might be ashamed enough of taking vengeance into his own hands that he wouldn't initiate any action against Glantz.

I also think it's OK if we as viewers and fans have varying reactions.  Generally, in my opinion, the writers and directors liked to leave key parts of the interpretation of a pivotal scene to the viewers' imaginations, rather than tying everything up in a neat package.  That leaves room for contradictory reactions on the part of viewers, and forces us to think about the situation.   

[ViceFanMan]

42 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I think your comment is well-taken as well.  Probably Glantz may have had mixed feelings/ multiple thoughts or reactions to Crockett's attack.  I have to admit, I did not get the feeling Glantz reacted by planning to exact revenge on Crockett as you discussed.  My feeling was that he did "get off" on the beating to an extent, and that as he thought about it afterward, he may have decided Crockett wasn't predictable enough to be deterred from further investigations.  I felt like Glantz may have decided to let well enough alone.  He had learned that Crockett could be unpredictable, but if Glantz laid low and didn't call attention to himself for awhile, Crockett might be ashamed enough of taking vengeance into his own hands that he wouldn't initiate any action against Glantz.

I also think it's OK if we as viewers and fans have varying reactions.  Generally, in my opinion, the writers and directors liked to leave key parts of the interpretation of a pivotal scene to the viewers' imaginations, rather than tying everything up in a neat package.  That leaves room for contradictory reactions on the part of viewers, and forces us to think about the situation.   

Your point is well taken, too. And in the episode, nothing is ever shown to be done to Crockett...we don’t actually know what ever came of that incident? I just feel that in reality Glantz would have done something—I don’t know if it would have been exacting “revenge” persay...more like preventing Crockett from being able to do anything else...whether another physical altercation or to prevent further investigation into Amy’s murder. I don’t think Glantz thought Crockett would care as much as he did, or go as far as he did with the case, and Glantz was wrong. 

I really don’t think Crockett feels any guilt or shame for smacking Glantz around...I think it’s more anger and disgust with the fact that Glantz will probably get away with it and never pay the price. But, whatever the reasons (whether implied by the writers or left up to our own interpretations) I just feel the ending was weird, and just a little out-there. 

But again...amazing, shocking, tragic, superb & captivating episode!!   

[squeezem3]

An outstanding episode and from the beginning to the end a pleasure to watch! Interesting story, well acted by all actors, nice Vice-Style, and good music. The only thing I missed was some more action, but overall this one proves that in season 4 it wasn't too late yet for the Miami Vice we fell in love with. 

It also showed the change of Crockett towards a darker side. I doubt he would have smacked Glantz like this in season 1, but he certainly saw too many criminals getting away with what they have done. I'd rate 9/10

Edited November 20, 2018 by squeezem3

[Matt5]

On 11/20/2018 at 3:41 PM, squeezem3 said:

An outstanding episode and from the beginning to the end a pleasure to watch! Interesting story, well acted by all actors, nice Vice-Style, and good music. The only thing I missed was some more action, but overall this one proves that in season 4 it wasn't too late yet for the Miami Vice we fell in love with. 

It also showed the change of Crockett towards a darker side. I doubt he would have smacked Glantz like this in season 1, but he certainly saw too many criminals getting away with what they have done. I'd rate 9/10

Great review - and very fine episode. 

[Robbie C.]

This episode got rerun a ton of times on USA Network, so I think I've seen it more than just about any other Vice episode (before I got the DVDs, anyhow).

I really like the ending, though I think Crockett was more annoyed that he let Glantz get to him than anything else. Glantz likely did get off on the beating, but I also think he realized that if he made too much of it some nasty details about his movie might be made public. I think Glantz viewed himself as something of a bystander to Amy's death as opposed to someone who was responsible, and I think he (wrongly) thought Crockett felt the same way about what he saw every day. You can't read too deeply into this one, though, I don't think. It's an atmospheric psychological comment on art that isn't art, the pretensions of those who claim to make said art (maybe it was a snide commentary on Michael Mann profiting off of Miami's misery?), and how the system can fail even a willing victim.

And don't forget Glantz is essentially a voyeur. Sonny was just giving him a taste of what he liked to watch. I think it's also especially telling that Sonny essentially "pimp slaps" Glantz instead of stomping him. That sends a serious dominance message and also tells us a bit about how Sonny might view Glantz.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Robbie C.

[Bren10]

Whoa, Michael Mann exploiting Miami is one that never occurred to me here.  If that's at all true it could help explain some of the silly, stupid episodes in this season.  Almost a deconstruction of Mann's take on the show from earlier seasons.  That would be pretty vindictive and petty to sabatoge the show just get at Mann.  You could also argue that started in S3 with the change in presentation.  

[ViceFanMan]

54 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

This episode got rerun a ton of times on USA Network, so I think I've seen it more than just about any other Vice episode (before I got the DVDs, anyhow).

I really like the ending, though I think Crockett was more annoyed that he let Glantz get to him than anything else. Glantz likely did get off on the beating, but I also think he realized that if he made too much of it some nasty details about his movie might be made public. I think Glantz viewed himself as something of a bystander to Amy's death as opposed to someone who was responsible, and I think he (wrongly) thought Crockett felt the same way about what he saw every day. You can't read too deeply into this one, though, I don't think. It's an atmospheric psychological comment on art that isn't art, the pretensions of those who claim to make said art (maybe it was a snide commentary on Michael Mann profiting off of Miami's misery?), and how the system can fail even a willing victim.

And don't forget Glantz is essentially a voyeur. Sonny was just giving him a taste of what he liked to watch. I think it's also especially telling that Sonny essentially "pimp slaps" Glantz instead of stomping him. That sends a serious dominance message and also tells us a bit about how Sonny might view Glantz.

 

2 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Whoa, Michael Mann exploiting Miami is one that never occurred to me here.  If that's at all true it could help explain some of the silly, stupid episodes in this season.  Almost a deconstruction of Mann's take on the show from earlier seasons.  That would be pretty vindictive and petty to sabatoge the show just get at Mann.  You could also argue that started in S3 with the change in presentation.  

I think Crockett was infuriated and sickened that Glantz was going to get away with the murder and/or slaughter of Amy...that’s why he went and attacked or “pimp-slapped” Glantz around at the end. As I’ve said before, I still say this is a little too over-the-top, and out-there. In reality he’d of been not only fired but most likely prosecuted. Glantz was too well connected. 

As for Michael Mann “exploiting” Miami...I don’t think so. By the 4th season Mann had pretty well moved onto other (although less popular or successful) projects, and other than a name listed (and I’m sure a nice paycheck ) at the end, he really didn’t have much to do with production of MV anymore...he’d handed those proverbial reins off to others. The silly or stupid episodes “sprinkled” in throughout seasons 4 & 5 were more the results of raunchy brain-farts from the goofball writers and the current producers handling MV production at that time. 

[Bren10]

You're misunderstanding, ViceFanMan.  The assertion/conspiracy theory is that the NEW producers are making a commentary ON Mann and his artistic "pretentiousness" by profiting off the misery and violence of Miami as well as being a voyeur to it the same way Glantz is doing to his subjects.  Both Mann and Glantz are filmmakers who use stylized violence yet also are obsessed with realism within that violence, albeit from very different angles and approaches.

I also still stand by my stance that Sonny would not be prosecuted or suffer repercussions because Glantz does not care about that and he's the only witness to being slapped.  He doesn't care about Sonny's career or getting even.  He wants to prove a point, which he does by Sonny laying hands on him in the first place.  Therefore he already wins.  Sonny knows this which is why he's too upset to even drive.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Bren10
Addendum

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

You're misunderstanding, ViceFanMan.  The assertion/conspiracy theory is that the NEW producers are making a commentary ON Mann and his artistic "pretentiousness" by profiting off the misery and violence of Miami as well as being a voyeur to it the same way Glantz is doing to his subjects.  Both Mann and Glantz are filmmakers who use stylized violence yet also are obsessed with realism within that violence, albeit from very different angles and approaches.

Perhaps I misunderstood what was stated about Michael Mann and Miami. However, whatever the case, I feel it’s trying to read (or create) WAY too much into it.  I don’t think anyone was trying to exploit the city or show, or compare Mann to Glantz or anyone/anything else. Constant changing of writers and/or character storylines, and Mann handing off the controlling reins to others not as “in-tune” with what MV was about, was what the main problem of the show’s lack of continued success was about. 

[Bren10]

Yes, but it's fun to speculate   Still, there is the possibility that Wolf et al thought that they could do it better than Mann.  In fact, I don't know why you would take that job if you didn't have that kind of confidence.  Why just be a placeholder showrunner?  Now whether he was right or not is a whole other story.

[Robbie C.]

7 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Perhaps I misunderstood what was stated about Michael Mann and Miami. However, whatever the case, I feel it’s trying to read (or create) WAY too much into it.  I don’t think anyone was trying to exploit the city or show, or compare Mann to Glantz or anyone/anything else. Constant changing of writers and/or character storylines, and Mann handing off the controlling reins to others not as “in-tune” with what MV was about, was what the main problem of the show’s lack of continued success was about. 

Sure, but that constant churn of writers makes it possible (note I'm not saying probable, but possible) that a writer snuck that kind of storyline in there. Mann did take flack at the time for glamorizing the drug trade and violence in Miami, after all.

But I remain convinced that the pimp-slapping of Glantz was there for a very specific reason. Crockett was showing Glantz who was really in charge and establishing his dominance. That alone would keep Glantz from filing any sort of complaint. And if we're going to get very police procedural about it, BOTH Crockett and Tubbs would have been on paid leave doing tons of paperwork in the aftermath of the shootings in the pilot alone. You would have had about one show per season with them actually on the street.

[Robbie C.]

9 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Whoa, Michael Mann exploiting Miami is one that never occurred to me here.  If that's at all true it could help explain some of the silly, stupid episodes in this season.  Almost a deconstruction of Mann's take on the show from earlier seasons.  That would be pretty vindictive and petty to sabatoge the show just get at Mann.  You could also argue that started in S3 with the change in presentation.  

I don't know that it would have been directed AT Mann per se, but rather a take on how he showed violence. Wolff has a very different way of showing that kind of thing (just look at "Law and Order," even in the early seasons). It may have been more of a reaction to the show and its reception at the time. But it's hard to say for sure. All we know is Vice took a very different turn once Mann essentially left, even though some of the bones remained the same.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Sure, but that constant churn of writers makes it possible (note I'm not saying probable, but possible) that a writer snuck that kind of storyline in there. Mann did take flack at the time for glamorizing the drug trade and violence in Miami, after all.

But I remain convinced that the pimp-slapping of Glantz was there for a very specific reason. Crockett was showing Glantz who was really in charge and establishing his dominance. That alone would keep Glantz from filing any sort of complaint. And if we're going to get very police procedural about it, BOTH Crockett and Tubbs would have been on paid leave doing tons of paperwork in the aftermath of the shootings in the pilot alone. You would have had about one show per season with them actually on the street.

True, in a sense I guess Mann “exploited” some of the drug trade in Miami at the time to glamorize the show. But he also seriously helped revitalize the city! When MV first started Miami was not that glamourous or exciting (as it had been in say the 30s or 40s)...it was mainly elderly retirees (and not necessarily millionaires) in a drug, poor-population, city. MV helped save a lot of the Art Decos, and gave a different new life to the city.

I still don’t think Crockett was worried about or trying to portray any kind of “dominance” with Glantz in attacking him...it was pure disgust and anger that Glantz was going to get away with it. He pimp-slapped him on purpose, yes, but it was out of disgust and anger...and as an insult. 

No cop show is ever realistic about paid leave and paperwork when there’s shooting. They’re always right back on the job the next day, lol!  The ending is still weird, though...Glantz was so well and politically connected that he could have easily had Crockett fired & prosecuted. In reality he would have...now granted, this is MV so it’s not reality. 

 And if Glantz did or did not do something about his attack, we don’t really know? We assume not as Sonny’s still working in the next episode...but reasons why Glantz didn’t do anything are totally up in the air...it could be any of a number of reasons—or supposed reasons we weren’t shown and don’t know about?? But, the whole ending is just bizarre...and I feel maybe could have been done differently. Otherwise the episode as a whole is superb! 

[RedDragon86]

On 10/2/2018 at 8:50 AM, Bren10 said:

We all know about the big "blooper" with Sonny's night drive footage being reused, but is it possible this was somehow intentional?  At the last moment the 4th wall is broken with Sonny looking directly into the camera.  Could this be Sonny looking at and confronting his past self?  We know he is haunted by the picture incident in his locker room in his past as well so he has been doing some self examination.  I mean how hard could it have been to film a few shots of DJ at the time?  Or use other S4 footage instead? (I know maybe they didn't have any, but still).  Anyway, this is one way to think of the scene if you don' want to be taken out of it by the inconsistency.

I don't think it was intentional because they could have filmed it anyway they wanted to there and then to suit the scene. Is there a specific reason why they use stock footage?

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by RedDragon86

[Tom]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb RedDragon86:

I don't think it was intentional because they could have filmed it anyway they wanted to there and then to suit the scene. Is there a specific reason why they use stock footage?

 

Yes. There is. Season 4 filming started very late on 23 July 87 (Amen...send money) with Death and the lady being the second episode to film beginning of August. They simply forgot to film an interior car shot with DJ for that episode as the car drive was not in the script. When.they decided to lay in the Truth song at the end, they decided to include the driving scenes as well to get to a 1:30 length for the song and the editor used some old second unit montage scenes of the white Ferrari for it. So far so good. But as DJ had his hair grown in between seasons they had no close up of DJ inside the car from season 4 they could use (in Amen send money there is no interior car scene). So the editor tried to use a close op of DJ from Shadow in the dark (that was the first episode with the white Ferrari and they made lots of driving scenes for it) in season 3 Where DJ was shown from the side with his hair rarely seen so they thought this was the least Dangerous Segment to use. In later season 4 episodes they filmed several interior car scenes with DJ and PMT but all with dialogue. 

PS. Exterior drive scenes are easy and normally done by second unit without actors based on script or for one season ahead. Interior car scenes with actors that are not demanded by the script are tricky as no one will film that just in case it is needed later. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Tom

[Matt5]

44 minutes ago, Tom said:

Yes. There is. Season 4 filming started very late on 23 July 87 (Amen...send money) with Death and the lady being the second episode to film beginning of August. They simply forgot to film an interior car shot with DJ for that episode as the car drive was not in the script. When.they decided to lay in the Truth song at the end, they decided to include the driving scenes as well to get to a 1:30 length for the song and the editor used some old second unit montage scenes of the white Ferrari for it. So far so good. But as DJ had his hair grown in between seasons they had no close up of DJ inside the car from season 4 they could use (in Amen send money there is no interior car scene). So the editor tried to use a close op of DJ from Shadow in the dark (that was the first episode with the white Ferrari and they made lots of driving scenes for it) in season 3 Where DJ was shown from the side with his hair rarely seen so they thought this was the least Dangerous Segment to use. In later season 4 episodes they filmed several interior car scenes with DJ and PMT but all with dialogue. 

PS. Exterior drive scenes are easy and normally done by second unit without actors based on script or for one season ahead. Interior car scenes with actors that are not demanded by the script are tricky as no one will film that just in case it is needed later. 

Really interesting Tom. I knew “Amen...” was shot first but never realised The Truth track was added in late.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Matt5