Episode #111 "Freefall"

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, Mr. Vigilante said:

As cool and Crockett-ish as the line is about "somewhere where the water's warm and drinks are cold", I'd have rather him said, "Hell, I'll find somethin to keep me busy when I get to Atlanta.  At least I'll get to see more of Billy."  And as corny as it may sound, It would've been nice to see the group having a last meal together.  But....at least we got a finale.

Very well said , and I fully agree it’d of been more heartfelt & “real” if he’d of thought of Billy...but, we can thank the writers for the last bits of dialogue.  

The rest of the cast was totally ignored & “discarded” in the finale...totally unsatisfactory & not acceptable in my opinion!  They definitely should have had more of a part in ending the show! 

I still say that “World of Trouble” was a much better episode to use as the finale—lose the goofy HAVOC aspect, and include everyone, along with Lombard...who was there from the beginning as well! 

[Miami Beau]

21 hours ago, Mr. Vigilante said:

As cool and Crockett-ish as the line is about "somewhere where the water's warm and drinks are cold", I'd have rather him said, "Hell, I'll find somethin to keep me busy when I get to Atlanta.  At least I'll get to see more of Billy."  And as corny as it may sound, It would've been nice to see the group having a last meal together.  But....at least we got a finale.

Yeah I could of gone with that kinda line. And yeah very disjointed ending for the other cast members. This was likely due to a number of factors including actors scheduling conflicts but it’s a shame we didn’t get a final group scene in Freefall. This is why, the previous episode “Over The Line” holds a lot of significance as this was the last actual episode to feature the entire main cast together in a scene at OCB. And come to think of it, the meeting room at OCB was so synonymous with the show and featured so heavily in nearly all the episodes, yet in Freefall we don’t even get a scene in there. Small things like that bother me but I’m grateful we got closure.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Miami Beau said:

Yeah I could of gone with that kinda line. And yeah very disjointed ending for the other cast members. This was likely due to a number of factors including actors scheduling conflicts but it’s a shame we didn’t get a final group scene in Freefall. This is why, the previous episode “Over The Line” holds a lot of significance as this was the last actual episode to feature the entire main cast together in a scene at OCB. And come to think of it, the meeting room at OCB was so synonymous with the show and featured so heavily in nearly all the episodes, yet in Freefall we don’t even get a scene in there. Small things like that bother me but I’m grateful we got closure.

Very true, with the finale being disjointed & not featuring most of the rest of the cast...and the OCB conference room holding significance for the team as a whole is spot-on! Whether it was intended or not, the scenes of the OCB team working & discussing cases together in the conference room, became intricate little “easter-eggs” for diehard fans, throughout the series.  

However, one, of many, things that bother or upset me with “Freefall”...is we don’t get closure! Crockett & Tubbs are basically left in limbo, the rest of the cast is left out like unimportant extras, and the whole thing was a big disappointment & let-down.  

[Glades]

Like it or not, Michael Mann never wanted to make an ordinary show. That's why Miami Vice is so good, that's why we love it. But that's also why people struggle with certain aspects. For example, the fact that MV doesn't have a classic series finale where all the storylines are resolved and all the cast members appear.

I also think it's a shame that Trudy and Gina almost don't appear. Still, the finale probably lacks nothing in Michael Mann's opinion.

Have you ever thought about why the finale is called Freefall?
I found the title a bit strange for a long time. Until I found the following interpretation: In the finale, as many here have already pointed out, it's not so much about the team with all its members. It's more about the setting, about the drug trade. Where do the drugs come from, how and why did they get to Miami, which people and organizations in South America and Florida support this and why? Of course, we've heard about these aspects over and over again before. But in Freefall, it's all shown again in a concentrated way. And Crockett and Tubbs, who have acted within this frame so far, break through and leave this frame at the end of Freefall. I actually imagine it figuratively like a waterfall. A reservoir that keeps filling up with water until the water finally pours over the dam - Freefall.

That's what I think Michael Mann is about in the finale. About this general idea of leaving the previous frame. Because the (drug) problems can't be solved in the old frame. It's not about the individual fates of the cast members. Not even so much about Crockett and Tubbs personally.

You can think that's wrong. But that's Michael Mann. He never wanted to play it safe, not make a ordinaryl show. And as I said, it's thanks to that that MV is what it is, that it's so special.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Glades

[ViceFanMan]

7 hours ago, Glades said:

Like it or not, Michael Mann never wanted to make an ordinary show. That's why Miami Vice is so good, that's why we love it. But that's also why people struggle with certain aspects. For example, the fact that MV doesn't have a classic series finale where all the storylines are resolved and all the cast members appear.

I also think it's a shame that Trudy and Gina almost don't appear. Still, the finale probably lacks nothing in Michael Mann's opinion.

Have you ever thought about why the finale is called Freefall?
I found the title a bit strange for a long time. Until I found the following interpretation: In the finale, as many here have already pointed out, it's not so much about the team with all its members. It's more about the setting, about the drug trade. Where do the drugs come from, how and why did they get to Miami, which people and organizations in South America and Florida support this and why? Of course, we've heard about these aspects over and over again before. But in Freefall, it's all shown again in a concentrated way. And Crockett and Tubbs, who have acted within this frame so far, break through and leave this frame at the end of Freefall. I actually imagine it figuratively like a waterfall. A reservoir that keeps filling up with water until the water finally pours over the dam - Freefall.

That's what I think Michael Mann is about in the finale. About this general idea of leaving the previous frame. Because the (drug) problems can't be solved in the old frame. It's not about the individual fates of the cast members. Not even so much about Crockett and Tubbs personally.

You can think that's wrong. But that's Michael Mann. He never wanted to play it safe, not make a ordinaryl show. And as I said, it's thanks to that that MV is what it is, that it's so special.

 

Some of this is probably true...but, by Season 3 Michael Mann had already left the producing reins of the show in other’s hands, and was only associated by name & I’m sure paycheck. 

But, the last couple seasons, including the finale, were not Michael Mann. In recent years Mann admitted in an interview that he had made a mistake in leaving the show too early (he called himself a bad executive producer—although I disagree with that). He says he sometimes gets too restless too quickly, and moves on from something too soon.

He stated the last couple seasons of MV were not good at all, and had lost the quality of the beginning of the show. So, I don’t think we’ll ever know what Mann’s ideas would have been for a finale...but I think they would have been different than “Freefall”. I think his vision would have still been closer to ‘home’, so-to-speak. Even if C & T still left at the end, I think there would have been better or more “definite” closure, and the rest of the cast would have been included more. 

To me “World of Trouble” was a superb throwback to the beginning of the show, very much the style when Mann was still in creative control. I could see him using that as a finale instead (without the havoc crap). 

Edited October 11, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Glades]

50 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Some of this is probably true...but, by Season 3 Michael Mann had already left the producing reins of the show in other’s hands, and was only associated by name & I’m sure paycheck. 

But, the last couple seasons, including the finale, were not Michael Mann. In recent years Mann admitted in an interview that he had made a mistake in leaving the show too early (he called himself a bad executive producer—although I disagree with that). He says he sometimes gets too restless too quickly, and moves on from something too soon.

He stated the last couple seasons of MV were not good at all, and had lost the quality of the beginning of the show.

Okay. I agree with you that Michael Mann was no longer involved in the day-to-day work on Miami Vice from the end of season 2. And yes, he has said that he is very proud of the quality of the first 2 seasons.
But he also said that he wanted to get out of MV after season 5 (implying that he was still involved in MV until season 5) and that it's hard to make a show over 5 seasons in good quality (implying that is was in Mann´s eyes good quality for all 5 seasons, and excellent for saeson 1 and 2). Also, he is definitely responsible for the color changes of season 3 and I know of an interview where he describes his general vision for season 4 quite accurately.

My interpretation is: Michael Mann took care of the daily work on Miami Vice on location in season 1 and 2. That was no longer the case from season 3 on. But Michael Mann is someone who has very high standards for his work, for what his name is on. Which was the case with MV for 5 seasons. From saeson 3 on, he no longer took care of the day-to-day business, but very much still took care of the big line. It doesn't take to much time to do that, no time locally in Miami in particular. A few days between seasons thinking and talking to the people in charge of day-to-day operations about the general direction the show should take. Every now and then during the shootings a call, an inquiry. That would be enough.

As I said, that's how I imagine it. I do think that's plausible, but ultimately it's an assumption.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Glades said:

Okay. I agree with you that Michael Mann was no longer involved in the day-to-day work on Miami Vice from the end of season 2. And yes, he has said that he is very proud of the quality of the first 2 seasons.
But he also said that he wanted to get out of MV after season 5 (implying that he was still involved in MV until season 5) and that it's hard to make a show over 5 seasons in good quality (implying that is was in Mann´s eyes good quality for all 5 seasons, and excellent for saeson 1 and 2). Also, he is definitely responsible for the color changes of season 3 and I know of an interview where he describes his general vision for season 4 quite accurately.

My interpretation is: Michael Mann took care of the daily work on Miami Vice on location in season 1 and 2. That was no longer the case from season 3 on. But Michael Mann is someone who has very high standards for his work, for what his name is on. Which was the case with MV for 5 seasons. From saeson 3 on, he no longer took care of the day-to-day business, but very much still took care of the big line. It doesn't take to much time to do that, no time locally in Miami in particular. A few days between seasons thinking and talking to the people in charge of day-to-day operations about the general direction the show should take. Every now and then during the shootings a call, an inquiry. That would be enough.

As I said, that's how I imagine it. I do think that's plausible, but ultimately it's an assumption.

True, I think he was still somewhat involved with the production of things into Season 3...but around that time he basically left. He left the creative control & decisions to others. I’m sure he was informed of some things, but he basically had moved onto his new show at the time...Crime Story.

He was basically no longer involved much from Season 3 on, other than name. Most of the changes (color scheme, lighting, character development, plots/episodes, etc...) were decided by Dick Wolf & others. Mann pretty much let them do what they wanted...and that was probably not the best decision, and he’s admitted that later on.

 I wish he’d of stayed heavily or totally involved the entire time...I think the show would have gone on longer & it would have remained popular longer. But, it was what it was. 

[RedDragon86]

It's unfortune for us fans of the show that the man with all of the vision for it and authentic touch had to be a great filmmaker, typical. You look at the likes David Chase, Chris Carter or Stephen J. Cannell  they just carried on season after season doing their shows.

Season 3 still turned out strong and he had to do Manhunter. 

It's just a shame Wolf had full control in season 4, would have been ideal if Michael returned for S4.

Bare minimum they should have just given the exec job to Dennis Cooper with Richard Bram's working alongside him.

Dick Wolf was too reckless.  

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

Mann got distracted by Crime Story and his own short attention span. I think it's that simple. And the three guys you mentioned were mostly TV people born and bred (for better or worse...Cannell did have some dogs in his body of work, after all). Mann came to it with a very specific goal, and once he achieved it (in his mind at least) he lost interest.

[RedDragon86]

And Manhunter moved him away from "Vice"

Any great director being head of a show would always be short lived, happened with David Lynch as well.

Edited October 13, 2022 by RedDragon86

[fakespyder]

Thing is, CrimeStory had some godawful episodes too. I mean there's an episode in s2 that rivals MV's Peanut butter crap.

And don't get me started on the last five minutes of CrimeStory's finale. Oh man, that was like Mann kicked me in the balls!

In fact that Crimestory finale had me worried for MV's finale a few years later.

All things considered, I think we got lucky the MV finale was competent, tense and emotional. At that stage it felt like the show made some effort to deliver a reasonable goodbye... for Rico and Sonny at least.

[ViceFanMan]

18 minutes ago, fakespyder said:

Thing is, CrimeStory had some godawful episodes too. I mean there's an episode in s2 that rivals MV's Peanut butter crap.

And don't get me started on the last five minutes of CrimeStory's finale. Oh man, that was like Mann kicked me in the balls!

In fact that Crimestory finale had me worried for MV's finale a few years later.

All things considered, I think we got lucky the MV finale was competent, tense and emotional. At that stage it felt like the show made some effort to deliver a reasonable goodbye... for Rico and Sonny at least.

I didn’t really watch a whole lot of episodes of Crime Story (although the ones I did see I really liked—but they were probably more towards the beginning), so I really can’t say too much about that show.

Everyone has their opinions on episodes of whatever show, of whether they did or did not like them. I don’t feel the MV finale was competent & definitely was not worthy of the show or characters.  There should have been more of an effort to create a reasonable & decent farewell. 

But, from aliens & peanut butter, to controversial finales...to each his or her own.  

[RedDragon86]

8 hours ago, fakespyder said:

Thing is, CrimeStory had some godawful episodes too. I mean there's an episode in s2 that rivals MV's Peanut butter crap.

And don't get me started on the last five minutes of CrimeStory's finale. Oh man, that was like Mann kicked me in the balls!

In fact that Crimestory finale had me worried for MV's finale a few years later.

All things considered, I think we got lucky the MV finale was competent, tense and emotional. At that stage it felt like the show made some effort to deliver a reasonable goodbye... for Rico and Sonny at least.

I never really watched "Crime Story"

Which episode was just as bad as Missing Hours?  surely this can't be true.

[Robbie C.]

9 hours ago, fakespyder said:

Thing is, CrimeStory had some godawful episodes too. I mean there's an episode in s2 that rivals MV's Peanut butter crap.

And don't get me started on the last five minutes of CrimeStory's finale. Oh man, that was like Mann kicked me in the balls!

In fact that Crimestory finale had me worried for MV's finale a few years later.

All things considered, I think we got lucky the MV finale was competent, tense and emotional. At that stage it felt like the show made some effort to deliver a reasonable goodbye... for Rico and Sonny at least.

It did, and it goes to show that TV isn't really Mann's "thing." He was doing different things with each show, and they both drifted when he lost interest. You have to have a long-term outlook to do TV.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

I never really watched "Crime Story"

Which episode was just as bad as Missing Hours?  surely this can't be true.

I’ve only seen a few episodes of Crime Story in it’s first season back when it was originally on...I can’t remember a lot about them (I remember I liked the show because I love stuff from the past & “period” things), but I can’t believe any episode of any show I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen & have collected TONS of shows over the years) could be as horrible & pathetic as “Missing Hours”, lol! 

I’d get CS on DVD & watch the entire thing...but, it only lasted 2 seasons, all the original music was switched out for the DVDs (music rights costs), and from what I’ve read before CS also ends with sort of leaving you hanging. So...it may be a show I don’t end up acquiring.

[Miami Beau]

17 hours ago, fakespyder said:

Thing is, CrimeStory had some godawful episodes too. I mean there's an episode in s2 that rivals MV's Peanut butter crap.

And don't get me started on the last five minutes of CrimeStory's finale. Oh man, that was like Mann kicked me in the balls!

In fact that Crimestory finale had me worried for MV's finale a few years later.

All things considered, I think we got lucky the MV finale was competent, tense and emotional. At that stage it felt like the show made some effort to deliver a reasonable goodbye... for Rico and Sonny at least.

I think you might be referring to the Crime Story season 2 episode “Paul Taglia’s Dream”. That was a pretty hard 45 minutes to sit through and ironically, the episode was written by Mann himself. 
 

As for the show itself, I really love Crime Story. I’ve seen the show repeatedly since acquiring the DVDs in 2020. Like Vice, there are deeper meanings and important themes explored within the show. Season 1 is the strongest, Season 2 gets weaker as it goes on and the final 3 episodes that take place in “Latin America” (Mexico), really feel disjointed to the previous episodes that have come before. Mainly due to the location change, it kinda feels off and also the sudden appearance of Pam Grier in the final episode felt very rushed. Still, a great show. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Miami Beau

[fakespyder]

Yes @Miami Beau that is the episode I'm referring to. Thanks for not making me have to look for it

I loved Crime Story but it suffered from the same ups and downs MV had in terms of quality of scripts. The whole Atom bomb thing was stretching credulity a bit.

Paulie and Luca should have jumped into a refrigerator like Indy did in Crystal Skull.

[Miami Beau]

17 hours ago, fakespyder said:

Yes @Miami Beau that is the episode I'm referring to. Thanks for not making me have to look for it

I loved Crime Story but it suffered from the same ups and downs MV had in terms of quality of scripts. The whole Atom bomb thing was stretching credulity a bit.

Paulie and Luca should have jumped into a refrigerator like Indy did in Crystal Skull.

Hehe I thought as much. I think the whole 22 episode run weakened the show much like Vice. Even though I’m grateful we get more episodes, a normal 13/15 episode run would of helped matters. 
 

Yeah the Atom bomb thing was a stretch. There is a decent shootout before the atom bomb stuff happens and it always makes me think, they should of finished the episode there and then. “Paul Taglia’s Dream” tries to tie up loose ends on the Atom Bomb aftermath but it’s so kooky and weird. I like John Santucci but he works best as a side character, he can’t carry a single 45 minute episode by himself and this episode proved that. 

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

Hehe I thought as much. I think the whole 22 episode run weakened the show much like Vice. Even though I’m grateful we get more episodes, a normal 13/15 episode run would of helped matters. 

A 22-24 episode run for shows, is actually normal...at least it traditionally has been until the past few years. Newer shows seem to want to only do 10-15 episodes, and to me they’re not as in-depth or impactful. But, that’s just me. 

[Adrian321]

On 9/18/2018 at 2:39 AM, Matt5 said:

So finished watching the blu-ray set with “Freefall” tonight - fantastic episode, just wow!

10/10

Next up... back to “Brother’s Keeper” again! 

Some people may disagree; but the finale was as good as it could get, for the context. It had everything it needed, and closed the show on a good note.

[jpaul1]

there's something i'm really curious about it's if the feelings of the actors during the last scene are played, or real

[ViceFanMan]

24 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

there's something i'm really curious about it's if the feelings of the actors during the last scene are played, or real

I “want” them to be real…but in all honesty, in my opinion—with the continued ratings drop, bizarre/ridiculous episodes as a whole, and both Don Johnson & Michael Mann wanting to leave and/or be done with the show, I think some of the cast & crew were “done”. Even though it was technically planned…to me, most of the finale is rushed, forced and the show & characters deserved better.

I don’t mean this as an insult, just how it came across to me, but: In close to the last scene, when Crockett & Tubbs say their goodbyes, it “almost” feels real again. But, to me Don/Crockett looks checked-out already…like this was just the last formality & responsibility for MV he had to do.

[RedDragon86]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:16 PM, ViceFanMan said:

I “want” them to be real…but in all honesty, in my opinion—with the continued ratings drop, bizarre/ridiculous episodes as a whole, and both Don Johnson & Michael Mann wanting to leave and/or be done with the show, I think some of the cast & crew were “done”. Even though it was technically planned…to me, most of the finale is rushed, forced and the show & characters deserved better.

I don’t mean this as an insult, just how it came across to me, but: In close to the last scene, when Crockett & Tubbs say their goodbyes, it “almost” feels real again. But, to me Don/Crockett looks checked-out already…like this was just the last formality & responsibility for MV he had to do.

We should have had a 2 hour special in Miami I would have loved a ghost from the past to cause unexpected trouble, like Lao li returns to settle the score with Marty or Maynard, maybe what would have been awesome is they teamed up, make sense because they were international players.

[ViceFanMan]

Just now, RedDragon86 said:

We should have had a 2 hour special in Miami I would have loved a ghost from the past to cause unexpected trouble, like Lao li returns to settle the score with Marty or Maynard, maybe what would have been awesome is they teamed up, make sense because they were international players.

I agree…it should have mainly been in Miami. I still think they should have elongated out & improved/tweaked “World of Trouble” for the finale. The show basically started with Lombard (right after Calderone), it should have ended with him & one last situation with the OCB.

[jpaul1]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

We should have had a 2 hour special in Miami I would have loved a ghost from the past to cause unexpected trouble, like Lao li returns to settle the score with Marty or Maynard, maybe what would have been awesome is they teamed up, make sense because they were international players.

excellent post. or Castillo getting together again with the asian girl (not sure about her name lol)