Episode #111 "Freefall"

[sdiegolo78]

19 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

These robbers were former military men and loaded to bear; oh, and both men had wives who were suspiciously murdered. These two were serious threats, although they had clean records beforehand. The F.B.I. got involved due to the pair robbing multiple banks (they were very violent about it), but it was contained to Florida.

The F.B.I. has come a long way since then. In those years they established the H.R.T. unit (hostage rescue team) and these guys are tough as nails. The HRT is considered the law enforcement equivalent of the military delta force.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Just now, sdiegolo78 said:

The F.B.I. has come a long way since then. In those years they established the H.R.T. unit (hostage rescue team) and these guys are tough as nails. The HRT is considered the law enforcement equivalent of the military delta force.

I agree, the F.B.I. has really made the proper strides since 1986, and from what I understand, when they're on the right page with things they're formidable. I don't think the 1986 Dade County situation was necessarily their fault, it just ended up being a very sad thing.

[Robbie C.]

46 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

The F.B.I. has come a long way since then. In those years they established the H.R.T. unit (hostage rescue team) and these guys are tough as nails. The HRT is considered the law enforcement equivalent of the military delta force.

Um...if you read their press releases, yes. You can't really compare the two. I would have to say the U.S. Marshals Service is better with their fugitive task forces and high risk warrant teams if you're talking law enforcement. What Delta does is VERY different on any number of levels.

[sdiegolo78]

2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Um...if you read their press releases, yes. You can't really compare the two. I would have to say the U.S. Marshals Service is better with their fugitive task forces and high risk warrant teams if you're talking law enforcement. What Delta does is VERY different on any number of levels.

Of course delta force is different being a military unit. That was some analogy to stress the elitism of this F.B.I unit among  the law enforcement units. US Marshall specialty is tracking fugitives but HRT is as good for high risk warrants. They are specialized in counter terrorism and hostage situations. Plus the FBI have independent swat teams for each of their branches in the country.

Edited March 18, 2021 by sdiegolo78

[Robbie C.]

Yeah...I know about the FBI. I don't think you fully grasp what the Marshals Service does, but that's fine. The FBI has a good PR machine, I will give them that. But their track record is somewhat spotty on the ground. And in any case it's far easier to get on the HRT than it is to make it into Delta.

But that doesn't have much to do with the endless cuss and discuss about Freefall.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

I have a question: the gal that Izzy tries to get to go along with his final, uh, money-making endeavor, is the actress there named Tamara Glynn? Occasionally I've wondered about her, and also if she took Tubbs's advice and got cable (I think it's a big rip nowadays, but in 1989 I thought cable was a solid option).

[Miami Beau]

53 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

I have a question: the gal that Izzy tries to get to go along with his final, uh, money-making endeavor, is the actress there named Tamara Glynn? Occasionally I've wondered about her, and also if she took Tubbs's advice and got cable (I think it's a big rip nowadays, but in 1989 I thought cable was a solid option).

Yes that is indeed Tamara Glynn. I remember her from the slasher movie Halloween 5 in 1989. One of her biggest roles. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

2 minutes ago, Miami Beau said:

Yes that is indeed Tamara Glynn. I remember her from the slasher movie Halloween 5 in 1989. One of her biggest roles. 

Ooh, I remember her from that now; she made a game effort attacking Michael Myers there, at least she had more of a shot than the Sandra character against Jason in "Friday the 13th Part 2". That Samantha character though, what a she-devil!

[ViceFanMan]

I’ve chosen to do my review of the finale before the last few other episodes...just because I don’t care for “Freefall” and wanted to get it out of the way. A lot of this is my original review, but I’ve added a few things:

I know some here think this was a wonderful ending to the show…I’m sorry but I disagree! This was a ridiculous plot, and much of it did not even take place in Miami! Yes...a few other episodes in past seasons did take C&T out of Miami and/or the country. But, they usually only had part of the episode take place elsewhere, and as for the finale of the show itself (not just a regular episode) it definitely needed to be primarily in Miami!

It also seemed very disjointed and everything was just kind of thrown together.  I also found Sonny and Rico’s reasons for changing their minds and deciding to take the almost impossible mission stupid and over-the-top. The scene at the bar where Rico talks Sonny into doing it annoys me. Tubbs was like “Do you want to live forever?” I was like…well, Crockett has a son who still needs him…so yeah he might want to live a while longer yet. But, no…none of them thought about family or friends.

Once out of the country, trying to get the General, I love the scene where Sonny and Rico are riding in this either Dodge Aspen or Plymouth Volare. The reason I find this scene somewhat funny is because the Volare changes after its blown up. The first one Crockett and Tubbs are sitting in is a newer model with square headlights…then once it’s blown up it changes to an older model with circle headlights. However, I love the old 1965 or ’66 Ford Galaxie the Alissia and her soldiers are driving when they rescue Sonny and Rico after the old Volare is toast!  (Sorry, I’m a car-guy .)

I don’t know…again this whole “suicide” mission episode just seemed ridiculous and over-the-top. I also was tired of poor Stan and his gambling problem. That just kept being sort of “thrown” in certain episodes as a weird “filler” or something, and we never had any closure with it & it just sort of became pathetic. Sometimes it just didn’t jive or go with what the main storyline was about, and came off more annoying than anything else.

This episode was also a very sad and depressing ending for the show! This was NOT a fitting ending and it leaves you hanging…there is no closure! It just leaves you with a sour taste in your mouth, and it concludes on a rancid note. 

However, the music wasn’t too bad. I especially liked the Phil Collins/Genesis song Land of Confusion! I also liked one of the scenes towards the end where Crockett is wearing a KU T-shirt under his white jacket.  I also liked the colors and fashion in this one, as well as Izzy’s scenes! Even though I usually was annoyed by Izzy earlier in the show, I actually kind of liked him towards the end.

I’m sorry but I’m not a fan of this series finale episode…and feel it should have been WAY better than this—Season 5 as a whole “suffered”, but we still needed a superb send-off, and this failed.

They should have had “World of Trouble” as the series finale…Lombard was one of the first bad guys (who turned out to not be so bad after all) that Crockett and Tubbs went after…so they could have ended with him as well. If they would have improved that episode some and got rid of the goofy HAVOC crap, they really could have made it into a worthwhile finale that involved everyone!

But, nothing good or satisfying ever happened or occurred in “Freefall”…it was pretty depressing and annoying. But, I will say I liked the montage of scenes from the whole show at the very end…that was a nice touch—along with literally ending with the ending scene of the Pilot TV movie.

Overall I just don’t think this was that good of an episode or finale for one of the most innovative shows in TV history! I would rate this one lower…but because of the colors, fashion, some music used, and the ending montage I originally gave this one a 5...probably still would.

[Tom]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb ViceFanMan:

I know some here think this was a wonderful ending to the show…I’m sorry but I disagree! This was a ridiculous plot, and much of it did not even take place in Miami! Yes...a few other episodes in past seasons did take C&T out of Miami and/or the country. But, they usually only had part of the episode take place elsewhere, and as for the finale of the show itself (not just a regular episode) it definitely needed to be primarily in Miami!

I fully agree that the finale was not great and lots of things missing, especially the no-show of the other team members and no good-bye.

But in one point you are definitely misjudging: the finale IS primarily set in Miami. Only half of the first half, 23 minutes from minute 17 til minute 40 ( or around 25% of the two-parter in total) is playing in Costa Morada (the first part ends with Montoya landing in Miami and from there on there is no Costa Morada at all). This is even less foreign country than in Smuggler´s blues where more than half of the episode is in "Colombia". And: the show virtually started in Colombia, as this was from where Calderone pulled his strings in Miami. So, it was a logical fit to end it with some Middle American country assignment.

And, without the intention to start another discussion on this aspect in detail (I know we disagree on this one): somehow we can be happy there is a finale at all, as many TV series of that time in the late 80s did not have even this and just ended with a normal episode. Just like it happened to Nash Bridges by the way.

So, overall, I am half happy that there was a finale at all with some good ending (our heroes were not killed) and half sad that they missed so much opportunities and ignored Castillo and the rest of the team throughout the finale that would have deserved some kind of last full team effort and also some kind of (at least short) goodbye to Gina and the others after what they have been through in five years....

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tom

[Miami Beau]

14 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I’ve chosen to do my review of the finale before the last few other episodes...just because I don’t care for “Freefall” and wanted to get it out of the way. A lot of this is my original review, but I’ve added a few things:

I know some here think this was a wonderful ending to the show…I’m sorry but I disagree! This was a ridiculous plot, and much of it did not even take place in Miami! Yes...a few other episodes in past seasons did take C&T out of Miami and/or the country. But, they usually only had part of the episode take place elsewhere, and as for the finale of the show itself (not just a regular episode) it definitely needed to be primarily in Miami!

It also seemed very disjointed and everything was just kind of thrown together.  I also found Sonny and Rico’s reasons for changing their minds and deciding to take the almost impossible mission stupid and over-the-top. The scene at the bar where Rico talks Sonny into doing it annoys me. Tubbs was like “Do you want to live forever?” I was like…well, Crockett has a son who still needs him…so yeah he might want to live a while longer yet. But, no…none of them thought about family or friends.

Once out of the country, trying to get the General, I love the scene where Sonny and Rico are riding in this either Dodge Aspen or Plymouth Volare. The reason I find this scene somewhat funny is because the Volare changes after its blown up. The first one Crockett and Tubbs are sitting in is a newer model with square headlights…then once it’s blown up it changes to an older model with circle headlights. However, I love the old 1965 or ’66 Ford Galaxie the Alissia and her soldiers are driving when they rescue Sonny and Rico after the old Volare is toast!  (Sorry, I’m a car-guy .)

I don’t know…again this whole “suicide” mission episode just seemed ridiculous and over-the-top. I also was tired of poor Stan and his gambling problem. That just kept being sort of “thrown” in certain episodes as a weird “filler” or something, and we never had any closure with it & it just sort of became pathetic. Sometimes it just didn’t jive or go with what the main storyline was about, and came off more annoying than anything else.

This episode was also a very sad and depressing ending for the show! This was NOT a fitting ending and it leaves you hanging…there is no closure! It just leaves you with a sour taste in your mouth, and it concludes on a rancid note. 

However, the music wasn’t too bad. I especially liked the Phil Collins/Genesis song Land of Confusion! I also liked one of the scenes towards the end where Crockett is wearing a KU T-shirt under his white jacket.  I also liked the colors and fashion in this one, as well as Izzy’s scenes! Even though I usually was annoyed by Izzy earlier in the show, I actually kind of liked him towards the end.

I’m sorry but I’m not a fan of this series finale episode…and feel it should have been WAY better than this—Season 5 as a whole “suffered”, but we still needed a superb send-off, and this failed.

They should have had “World of Trouble” as the series finale…Lombard was one of the first bad guys (who turned out to not be so bad after all) that Crockett and Tubbs went after…so they could have ended with him as well. If they would have improved that episode some and got rid of the goofy HAVOC crap, they really could have made it into a worthwhile finale that involved everyone!

But, nothing good or satisfying ever happened or occurred in “Freefall”…it was pretty depressing and annoying. But, I will say I liked the montage of scenes from the whole show at the very end…that was a nice touch—along with literally ending with the ending scene of the Pilot TV movie.

Overall I just don’t think this was that good of an episode or finale for one of the most innovative shows in TV history! I would rate this one lower…but because of the colors, fashion, some music used, and the ending montage I originally gave this one a 5...probably still would.

Hey pal, yeah “Freefall” undoubtedly could of been better. After recently rewatching the episode it’s clear to see they did make an effort in certain places but sadly, other aspects of the episode let it down. 

Let’s take a closer look at the final scene between Crockett and Tubbs. I have studied this scene frame for frame and it’s a wonderful, beautifully shot piece with great cinematography and choice of lighting and music. Clearly a lot of attention has gone on this scene and rightly so but then other parts of the episode, seemed rushed and the edit was kind a poor. 

When it comes to the bar scene between Crockett and Tubbs at the beginning, oh how I wish Tubbs would of said “Nobody Lives Forever” instead of “Do you want to live forever?”. That would of been nice fan service there.  

It is questionable why Tubbs would be so up for the mission given its suicide. That said Colonel Baker played down the mission as a simple task that Crockett and Tubbs could handle. If we analyse this closely, unlike Crockett, Tubbs still had some belief in the system and wanted to do good. Plus, Tubbs was coming off a marriage rejection from his ultimate love interest, it’s likely Tubbs’s mindset was to forget fall deep into work. Crockett didn’t really want to go but it’s safe to assume he wanted to assist Tubbs. 

Nevertheless, we needed this to set up the further corruption storyline involving Commissioner Highsmith which would ultimately be the final nail in the coffin for Crockett and Tubbs. 

I agree with Tom, an assignment out of Miami was a nice nod to earlier episodes. Another nice nod was Crockett wearing his triple white suit from season 1 but sadly the scene in which it was used lasted only 45 seconds. 
 

As ViceFanMan suggested, the Lombard storyline would of been a better way to end the show. Given Lombard was the season 1 finale, a 2 hour World Of Trouble finale would of been welcomed. Remove the havoc storyline, show the beginnings of Lombard’s return and show Fabreezi pay off the judge like he said he did. World of Trouble felt rushed to me and would of been better if the show had time to develop naturally. In World Of Trouble, we don’t even see Crockett and Tubbs’s first interaction with Lombard. They simply follow him and then the scene cuts to them all at OCB. Like the missed a big moment right there. 
 

Anyways one last thing regards Freefall is the fact we don’t get the whole Vice squad together in a single scene. Hardly any scenes at OCB. Gina, Trudy and Castillo all barley featured which was a real let down. 
The last actual scene we get with the whole Vice squad at OCB, was in “Over The Line”, crazy to think. 

Also the last scene between Castillo/Crockett and Tubbs was filmed at different times with Edward James Olmos acting along side stand ins. Notice there is no shot of them all standing together. Crockett and Tubbs are filmed from behind when Olmos is on screen. Also Olmos had shaved his hair off before Freefall production started in April 1989. He came back to film his scenes and wore a wig. 
The scene between Castillo and Stan at OCB was likely filmed earlier since Olmos wasn’t wearing a wig for that scene. 

[ViceFanMan]

7 hours ago, Tom said:

I fully agree that the finale was not great and lots of things missing, especially the no-show of the other team members and no good-bye.

But in one point you are definitely misjudging: the finale IS primarily set in Miami. Only half of the first half, 23 minutes from minute 17 til minute 40 ( or around 25% of the two-parter in total) is playing in Costa Morada (the first part ends with Montoya landing in Miami and from there on there is no Costa Morada at all). This is even less foreign country than in Smuggler´s blues where more than half of the episode is in "Colombia". And: the show virtually started in Colombia, as this was from where Calderone pulled his strings in Miami. So, it was a logical fit to end it with some Middle American country assignment.

And, without the intention to start another discussion on this aspect in detail (I know we disagree on this one): somehow we can be happy there is a finale at all, as many TV series of that time in the late 80s did not have even this and just ended with a normal episode. Just like it happened to Nash Bridges by the way.

So, overall, I am half happy that there was a finale at all with some good ending (our heroes were not killed) and half sad that they missed so much opportunities and ignored Castillo and the rest of the team throughout the finale that would have deserved some kind of last full team effort and also some kind of (at least short) goodbye to Gina and the others after what they have been through in five years....

True, there are parts that were in Miami, too...it just seemed that the majority of it took place in Costa Morada. But, regardless, “Smuggler’s Blues” only had the first part in Columbia...and it was a regular episode partway into a season. It wasn’t the series finale. The show didn’t start out of the country...it had a ‘blurp’ in NYC, and then the rest was solely in Miami (although later C&T go to the Bahamas to take down Calderone in the 2-pt Pilot sequel episodes). I just think that for the series finale, it should have been something (such as “World of Trouble” with Lombard) in Miami to end it all.

 I know lots of shows don’t really have a ‘finale’ of any kind, and just end on a regular episode. However, I think usually (maybe not always?) that’s when they didn’t know the show was going to be canceled, or they were still planning on at least 1 more season. So, the show wasn’t given a chance to do a finale of some kind. Some shows even in the 70s were doing a finale episode if they knew it was the end—even Perry Mason did a finale episode in 1966. Granted most were still a 1hr episode, but they were still planned finales.

The idea of a 2hr finale for MV was superb...but, it just ended up being a big disappointment & let-down to me. Since it was planned, and they had time to create something to really send the show out with the proverbial “bang”, it could have been SO much better, and I agree—definitely needed to include the rest of the cast! They were all but forgotten in this. 

I too am glad they chose to try and do a finale (the idea of it)...I just wish they had created something better—with more closure, rest of the cast, and a plot more Miami & even personally focused. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

34 minutes ago, Miami Beau said:

Hey pal, yeah “Freefall” undoubtedly could of been better. After recently rewatching the episode it’s clear to see they did make an effort in certain places but sadly, other aspects of the episode let it down. 

Let’s take a closer look at the final scene between Crockett and Tubbs. I have studied this scene frame for frame and it’s a wonderful, beautifully shot piece with great cinematography and choice of lighting and music. Clearly a lot of attention has gone on this scene and rightly so but then other parts of the episode, seemed rushed and the edit was kind a poor. 

When it comes to the bar scene between Crockett and Tubbs at the beginning, oh how I wish Tubbs would of said “Nobody Lives Forever” instead of “Do you want to live forever?”. That would of been nice fan service there.  

It is questionable why Tubbs would be so up for the mission given its suicide. That said Colonel Baker played down the mission as a simple task that Crockett and Tubbs could handle. If we analyse this closely, unlike Crockett, Tubbs still had some belief in the system and wanted to do good. Plus, Tubbs was coming off a marriage rejection from his ultimate love interest, it’s likely Tubbs’s mindset was to forget fall deep into work. Crockett didn’t really want to go but it’s safe to assume he wanted to assist Tubbs. 

Nevertheless, we needed this to set up the further corruption storyline involving Commissioner Highsmith which would ultimately be the final nail in the coffin for Crockett and Tubbs. 

I agree with Tom, an assignment out of Miami was a nice nod to earlier episodes. Another nice nod was Crockett wearing his triple white suit from season 1 but sadly the scene in which it was used lasted only 45 seconds. 
 

As ViceFanMan suggested, the Lombard storyline would of been a better way to end the show. Given Lombard was the season 1 finale, a 2 hour World Of Trouble finale would of been welcomed. Remove the havoc storyline, show the beginnings of Lombard’s return and show Fabreezi pay off the judge like he said he did. World of Trouble felt rushed to me and would of been better if the show had time to develop naturally. In World Of Trouble, we don’t even see Crockett and Tubbs’s first interaction with Lombard. They simply follow him and then the scene cuts to them all at OCB. Like the missed a big moment right there. 
 

Anyways one last thing regards Freefall is the fact we don’t get the whole Vice squad together in a single scene. Hardly any scenes at OCB. Gina, Trudy and Castillo all barley featured which was a real let down. 
The last actual scene we get with the whole Vice squad at OCB, was in “Over The Line”, crazy to think. 

Also the last scene between Castillo/Crockett and Tubbs was filmed at different times with Edward James Olmos acting along side stand ins. Notice there is no shot of them all standing together. Crockett and Tubbs are filmed from behind when Olmos is on screen. Also Olmos had shaved his hair off before Freefall production started in April 1989. He came back to film his scenes and wore a wig. 
The scene between Castillo and Stan at OCB was likely filmed earlier since Olmos wasn’t wearing a wig for that scene. 

Very well stated! I fully agree, the last scene had so much detail and time put into it with the lighting, location, colors, cinematography, etc...! If they had only done that with the rest of the finale, and had one not so disjointed & “choppy”—including the rest of the cast & in Miami, it would have been so much better! 

 I’ll be honest, I have not really ever noticed the wig-thing with Castillo, lol! I’ll have to look for that the next time I watch the finale. 

[Tom]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Miami Beau:

It is questionable why Tubbs would be so up for the mission given its suicide.

For me that´s very clear. That was the whole purpose of the "Too much, too late" episode to explain that. At the end of TMTL, Tubbs is left by Valerie, she turned him down a last time, including his marriage proposal and lied to him the whole episode (actually I never liked her as she was always using Tubbs like a toy and only came to him when she needed him throughout the whole series) and went back to NYC. The final gesture of Tubbs when his head falls down after Val left is full despair.

Tubbs was simply tired of everything after this final split up with Val. That´s why he had this "suicide" attitude in Freefall. Just my two cents, but for me that was a clear motif the writers have built up for Tubbs for the final episode, especially when you consider that they filmed different endings (both die, only Tubbs dies, ...) and just decided before airing which ending will make it on screen; and Tubbs mentioned several times throughout Freefall that he might not make it this time, this was also a built-up for a potential lethal outcome. (I really would like to see the alternate footage they have not used)

Bad stuff for those viewers who never saw TMTL due to its NBC ban or out of order as they never might have understood WHY Tubbs behaved like that, as this was in total contrast to his positive spirit in all other episodes shown earlier. He was always much less disenchanted than Crockett in season 5 and has never showed such a "I don´t care about anything anymore" attitude.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tom

[Miami Beau]

5 hours ago, Tom said:

For me that´s very clear. That was the whole purpose of the "Too much, too late" episode to explain that. At the end of TMTL, Tubbs is left by Valerie, she turned him down a last time, including his marriage proposal and lied to him the whole episode (actually I never liked her as she was always using Tubbs like a toy and only came to him when she needed him throughout the whole series) and went back to NYC. The final gesture of Tubbs when his head falls down after Val left is full despair.

Tubbs was simply tired of everything after this final split up with Val. That´s why he had this "suicide" attitude in Freefall. Just my two cents, but for me that was a clear motif the writers have built up for Tubbs for the final episode, especially when you consider that they filmed different endings (both die, only Tubbs dies, ...) and just decided before airing which ending will make it on screen; and Tubbs mentioned several times throughout Freefall that he might not make it this time, this was also a built-up for a potential lethal outcome. (I really would like to see the alternate footage they have not used)

Bad stuff for those viewers who never saw TMTL due to its NBC ban or out of order as they never might have understood WHY Tubbs behaved like that, as this was in total contrast to his positive spirit in all other episodes shown earlier. He was always much less disenchanted than Crockett in season 5 and has never showed such a "I don´t care about anything anymore" attitude.

Hey Tom, yeah you make a great point. I was kinda lingering in that direction. There’s no doubt Tubbs was seriously effected by the events in “Too Much, Too Late”. The Valerie rejection and the lies took there toll.

With that said, Tubbs did show some subtle signs he was cracking even before that. Remember Tubbs snapped at Jeffery Whitehead at OCB in “The Lost Maddona”. 

I too would love to see the alternative endings. Given they filmed these endings, that would mean there is potentially an alternative final scene without Tubbs. Maybe there was a group scene with everyone but we just don’t know it. 

[ViceFanMan]

15 minutes ago, Miami Beau said:

Hey Tom, yeah you make a great point. I was kinda lingering in that direction. There’s no doubt Tubbs was seriously effected by the events in “Too Much, Too Late”. The Valerie rejection and the lies took there toll.

With that said, Tubbs did show some subtle signs he was cracking even before that. Remember Tubbs snapped at Jeffery Whitehead at OCB in “The Lost Maddona”. 

I too would love to see the alternative endings. Given they filmed these endings, that would mean there is potentially an alternative final scene without Tubbs. Maybe there was a group scene with everyone but we just don’t know it. 

I know maybe that’s what they originally had kind of planned for Tubbs being burnt out & depressed because of Valerie...but by this time the whole Val-saga was pathetic and ridiculous. It was like...dude, the chick is poison!  She’s used you for her own gain, then dumped you every time...yet you keep going back. You should be used to it by now.  

The episode “Too Much Too Late” was not that good or ‘heartfelt’ when it came to Tubbs & Val, either. I know NBC refused to air it, so we didn’t get to see Tubbs’ lead-in to his supposed depression (until January of 1990 when it first aired, along with the other reruns, on the USA network). But, ultimately we didn’t miss much. 

I know that supposedly there were some alternate endings being considered early on for the finale, with Crockett or Tubbs...or both being killed in the end. But, ultimately I think producers realized that definitely would not go over well & they chose to at least have them live. As disappointed as I was with the finale they did do...as far as having C&T live, they made the right choice there. I doubt these other ideas were ever filmed. I don’t think they made it that far in the production process before they were discarded. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[RedDragon86]

2 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I know maybe that’s what they originally had kind of planned for Tubbs being burnt out & depressed because of Valerie...but by this time the whole Val-saga was pathetic and ridiculous. It was like...dude, the chick is poison!  She’s used you for her own gain, then dumped you every time...yet you keep going back. You should be used to it by now.  

The episode “Too Much Too Late” was not that good or ‘heartfelt’ when it came to Tubbs & Val, either. I know NBC refused to air it, so we didn’t get to see Tubbs’ lead-in to his supposed depression (until January of 1990 when it first aired, along with the other reruns, on the USA network). But, ultimately we didn’t miss much. 

I know that supposedly there were some alternate endings being considered early on for the finale, with Crockett or Tubbs...or both being killed in the end. But, ultimately I think producers realized that definitely would not go over well & they chose to at least have them live. As disappointed as I was with the finale they did do...as far as having C&T live, they made the right choice there. I doubt these other ideas were ever filmed. I don’t think they made it that far in the production process before they were discarded. 

The Finale was poor. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by RedDragon86

[Dadrian]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

The Finale was poor. 

But the pilot is phenomenal  

I’ve said it many times: always follow the finale with the pilot. It fixes everything. 

[ViceFanMan]

56 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

But the pilot is phenomenal  

I’ve said it many times: always follow the finale with the pilot. It fixes everything. 

The Pilot is absolutely phenomenal!  I’ve never done this...but one of my times through the show, I’ve considered not watching “Freefall”, and purposely watch “World of Trouble” as the last episode, per-say (I wish they’d of done more with this episode as the finale instead)...then start over with the Pilot again!  

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

I feel the series finale is good, acceptable, and has a reasonably satisfying conclusion, but sure, it could've been better (I feel that sometimes things feel a bit rushed). I don't think it's a disappointment by any means though, and I agree with Tom that basing part of the finale out of country was a nod to where the show began and rather fitting. I would've liked to see more of the OCB team, as this would be the last time we'd see them (except in rerun or re-watching, and we gotta do that!): I don't feel that Castillo, Switek, Gina, or Trudy had a proper send-off (Castillo fared better I guess; at least he got a final stare in, and was the boss one more time) at the finale's conclusion.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

12 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

I feel the series finale is good, acceptable, and has a reasonably satisfying conclusion, but sure, it could've been better (I feel that sometimes things feel a bit rushed). I don't think it's a disappointment by any means though, and I agree with Tom that basing part of the finale out of country was a nod to where the show began and rather fitting. I would've liked to see more of the OCB team, as this would be the last time we'd see them (except in rerun or re-watching, and we gotta do that!): I don't feel that Castillo, Switek, Gina, or Trudy had a proper send-off (Castillo fared better I guess; at least he got a final stare in, and was the boss one more time) at the finale's conclusion.

In the end (and it was the end), this was the first time in Vice when I was bothered by lack of screen time from the entire OCB crew; in other episodes, I never gave it much thought. I guess when something is final, one thinks about that which wasn't fully realized or not given it's due.

[ViceFanMan]

10 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

I feel the series finale is good, acceptable, and has a reasonably satisfying conclusion, but sure, it could've been better (I feel that sometimes things feel a bit rushed). I don't think it's a disappointment by any means though, and I agree with Tom that basing part of the finale out of country was a nod to where the show began and rather fitting. I would've liked to see more of the OCB team, as this would be the last time we'd see them (except in rerun or re-watching, and we gotta do that!): I don't feel that Castillo, Switek, Gina, or Trudy had a proper send-off (Castillo fared better I guess; at least he got a final stare in, and was the boss one more time) at the finale's conclusion.

The show didn’t begin out of the country, though...there’s nothing with that to nod to?? Other than the small little bit in NYC, the show began & primarily was in & around Miami. That’s where it needed to end & have the finale, as well. 

I think we all would have included the rest of the cast too...definitely agree they should have had way more a ‘part’ than barely cameos. It just could have been handled way better. But, everyone has their likes & dislikes...to each his or her own!  

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

The show didn’t begin out of the country, though...there’s nothing with that to nod to?? Other than the small little bit in NYC, the show began & primarily was in & around Miami. That’s where it needed to end & have the finale, as well. 

I think we all would have included the rest of the cast too...definitely agree they should have had way more a ‘part’ than barely cameos. It just could have been handled way better. But, everyone has their likes & dislikes...to each his or her own!  

You're right about the actual setting, but the initial threat in the pilot was someone from out of country ("The Columbian"), although Calderone was a bit of a globetrotter (that might explain NYC; maybe Calderone wanted to see Harlem?). I also agree to each their own though, I completely see your side in your review and subsequent comments.

[Tom]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan:

The show didn’t begin out of the country, though...there’s nothing with that to nod to?? Other than the small little bit in NYC, the show began & primarily was in & around Miami. That’s where it needed to end & have the finale, as well. 

 

It´s not about where the show geographically began and I think you know well how that "nod" was meant. The pilot was about Calderone who was from South America and South America esp. Colombia was the origin of Miami´s drug problem and the reason the VICE department existed at all. Calderone flew often into Miami and left in the end of the pilot for Colombia, didn´t he? So, it´s just logical that the finale had strong ties to that and C&T try to tackle the issue at its core, as they did in Smuggler´s blues by the way, which is deemed by many fans as one of the best and quintessential VICE episodes and has much more foreign country share than the finale.

And the finale itself ended in Miami and it played around 75% of its time in Miami. So I see no argument here either that the finale would not meet by your own standards defined above...

Edited September 11, 2021 by Tom

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

You're right about the actual setting, but the initial threat in the pilot was someone from out of country ("The Columbian"), although Calderone was a bit of a globetrotter (that might explain NYC; maybe Calderone wanted to see Harlem?). I also agree to each their own though, I completely see your side in your review and subsequent comments.

True, Calderone himself was originally from Columbia, and also had residences in the Bahamas...but the threat of the drugs & even Calderone were primarily focused in Miami. Eventually C&T went to the Bahamas to take him down...but that was stemming from what he’d done in Miami (and NYC earlier).

Over the course of the show, yes there'd be times/parts of episodes where the cast would go somewhere else other than Miami—even out of the country. But, the majority of the show, and the majority of the drug dealers/drug wars the OCB fought, were focused in or around Miami...as that’s what the “core” of the show’s premise was all about. I just felt the series began in Miami, basically exploded it on the proverbial tourist popularity map, and it should have primarily ended there.