Episode #111 "Freefall"

[Glades]

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

As for drug crime, we're always going to have that with us. Hey, talking of which, was this actually a part of DJ's script or did he say it privately (script I think) that drug crime could cease immediately if drug taking was allowed in a controlled environment, but when he'd said this to whoever in the department "they looked at me as if I had four heads or something!" I was amazed because it's something I've always believed. A bit like legalised brothels- allow people to  enjoy the facilities, as it were, in a safe environment, with the proviso no one got hurt, even themselves as far as possible- and clamp right down on it everywhere  else. If people make a personal choice to take drugs you can't do much about it but you can protect others from the associated criminality, and even the drug takers themselves to a certain extent. Governments would save a fortune. I thought, well said, Sonny. I'm in complete agreement.

I agree with you. To fight against a problem usually creates more problems in the long run then it solves. It´s better to look for other solutions/ways of dealing with the problem.

According DJ, I can´t remember him saying this lines in the script. So it was probably private. But Izzy said something very similar in Miracle Man about the drug problem: "You know the only way is to undercut the profit margin and that means the "L" word."

[wolfie1996]

13 minutes ago, Glades said:

I agree with you. To fight against a problem usually creates more problems in the long run then it solves. It´s better to look for other solutions/ways of dealing with the problem.

According DJ, I can´t remember him saying this lines in the script. So it was probably private. But Izzy said something very similar in Miracle Man about the drug problem: "You know the only way is to undercut the profit margin and that means the "L" word."

Indeed. I can't think  why governments haven't adopted this line, though you'd have to be careful to have well-organised "safe environments". I mean everyone knows how dangerous smoking is but it has never been illegal. People have to have personal freedom to some extent with the proviso they don't harm others. Take away the profits involved and no criminal would bother getting involved with drugs. (Though they might turn their  attentions  elsewhere.)Personally I think the whole penal system needs rethought to make it more effective but that's a subject for  several theses on its own.

[ViceFanMan]

6 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

An excellent answer, which I agree with. Your first line summed it up. As you say, poor writers= unattractive /uninteresting plots and they are the main reason viewers start to lose interest and then as you say, it's a vicious circle. Once DJ decided  he'd be moving on (not to very much as it turned out, but he did blame the poor writing himself) then that was the beginning of the  end. MV had a good fan base but unlike other longer lasting shows it was an ephemeral one and they didn't take that seriously and put the work in to keep that base, whereas I know definitely Supernatural  did (I'm aware of the other two long runners you mentioned but haven't seen them so can't comment) because I was a big fan myself and it's common for people to have- believe it or not- Supernatural tattoos!  Stuff like that. I've an English mailfriend who goes to all their conventions and even went to Vancouver to see them a couple of years ago . Yes, given the subject (supernatural) involved there was a lot of scope for different stories  but it wasn't only that. I think your phrase "fully invested" is very relevant. If producers are fully invested they make sure the writing is good. If the actors are fully invested , they make sure they remain popular and connected to their fans. Neither of these things happened, everybody was too interested in  enjoying the here and now and the good salaries to give a damn about anything like that and they've suffered from the inevitable result. It's a shame as far as us fans are concerned because we prematurely lost something WE were fully invested in, interest-wise.

Exactly...if MV had had the same writers and producers throughout, and they had come up with good scripts (like the first 2-2-1/2 seasons) I think the ratings would have stayed  higher and the actors would have stayed more invested...and the show could have gone on longer. 

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Exactly...if MV had had the same writers and producers throughout, and they had come up with good scripts (like the first 2-2-1/2 seasons) I think the ratings would have stayed  higher and the actors would have stayed more invested...and the show could have gone on longer. 

Yes, no excuse because they knew the formula for success by then and who was likely to deliver it, script and plot wise, yet disregarded it. I can't understand that. You don't see other successful series making those mistakes. Fair enough  when just starting out you don't know what an audience will take to and what it won't but after two series, that's 46 episodes or whatever, you SHOULD know, if you know your  job.

[wolfie1996]

On 9/18/2015 at 9:48 PM, vicegirl85 said:

I could be mistaken about DJ but it makes me happier to think he was just furthering his character's downward spiral than to think he was just marking time until he was free of the show.

I'm sure that he was merely furthering his character's downward spiral. I rarely felt he didn't give 100 per cent of himself throughout MV.

[sdiegolo78]

15 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

An excellent answer, which I agree with. Your first line summed it up. As you say, poor writers= unattractive /uninteresting plots and they are the main reason viewers start to lose interest and then as you say, it's a vicious circle. Once DJ decided  he'd be moving on (not to very much as it turned out, but he did blame the poor writing himself) then that was the beginning of the  end. MV had a good fan base but unlike other longer lasting shows it was an ephemeral one and they didn't take that seriously and put the work in to keep that base, whereas I know definitely Supernatural  did (I'm aware of the other two long runners you mentioned but haven't seen them so can't comment) because I was a big fan myself and it's common for people to have- believe it or not- Supernatural tattoos!  Stuff like that. I've an English mailfriend who goes to all their conventions and even went to Vancouver to see them a couple of years ago . Yes, given the subject (supernatural) involved there was a lot of scope for different stories  but it wasn't only that. I think your phrase "fully invested" is very relevant. If producers are fully invested they make sure the writing is good. If the actors are fully invested , they make sure they remain popular and connected to their fans. Neither of these things happened, everybody was too interested in  enjoying the here and now and the good salaries to give a damn about anything like that and they've suffered from the inevitable result. It's a shame as far as us fans are concerned because we prematurely lost something WE were fully invested in, interest-wise.

MV is certainly gone, but not forgotten as of 2021!

[sdiegolo78]

On 3/14/2021 at 9:46 PM, Tom said:

And even for those where it was quite clear that their season will be the last nobody cared to do a finale. That was simply not standard back then

Knight rider comes to my mind as example.

[Tom]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb sdiegolo78:

Knight rider comes to my mind as example.

exactly. Hasselhoff even tried to persuade producers to do a series finale (based on a story he had conceived with his then-wife who also played in the series, but they were not interested and the last episode was just an ordinary episode.

[sdiegolo78]

On 3/14/2021 at 11:23 PM, ViceFanMan said:

If shows have good writers, producers, crew, and the actors are fully invested in the show, it can almost always go several years and/or last a long time! CSI & Criminal Minds are two other shows that lasted 15 years, and were still amazing when they finally stopped. 

In my opinion MV could have definitely gone on longer than 5 seasons, if they had not switched out writers so many times and came up with these horrible ridiculous plots and scripts. Once ratings start nose diving and things start going downhill, then of course the actors are probably seeing the proverbial writing on the wall, and they’re going to start looking and wanting to do other things. Sadly, I think that was the case with MV. 

Someone else pointed out using many different writers for a TV series was the norm back int he 80s.

[sdiegolo78]

6 minutes ago, Tom said:

exactly. Hasselhoff even tried to persuade producers to do a series finale (based on a story he had conceived with his then-wife who also played in the series, but they were not interested and the last episode was just an ordinary episode.

The Hoff and his wife shot an episode together (when Micheal Knight gets married with his former life fiance and she gets shot) during the final season of the show. That was meant to be aired as last episode/finale. But the NBC aired it mid-season.The episode in question was 'The scent of roses' and would have been a more appropriate choice for an ending.

[Tom]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb ViceFanMan:

Exactly...if MV had had the same writers and producers throughout, and they had come up with good scripts (like the first 2-2-1/2 seasons) I think the ratings would have stayed  higher and the actors would have stayed more invested...and the show could have gone on longer. 

I disagree. MV was a zeitgeist TV show, much more than any of the long running series today. And viewer´s interest was different. In the 80s there was much more and faster change in taste from one year to the other than today as far as crime series are concerned (Criminal Minds for example does the same for 15 years - every episode looks the same - MV could not have afforded that kind of doing all the same for 15 seasons). Ratings dropped after season 2 (from 9 to 35, in season 4 it dropped only from around 35 to 45) although the scripts were great in season 3, but many viewers turned their backs due to darker colors and different music selection as THEY were only on style and did not look out for substance. That is rather proof for my zeitgeist argument then for bad writing. My point is even with better scripts and everyone engaged MV would have hardly lasted for more than 6 seasons for above stated reasons.

But of course you are right that season 4 script quality was partly insane. But in general I think MV was not designed to be a 6-10 year running show like CSI, Law&Order, Criminal Minds, etc just because it was so 80s connected in many ways that it had its own destruction clock built in. And, we may not forget the huge production cost and the associated effort to film it on site in Miami which was unprecedented and had its toll too. No other series did go that length back then. All direct competitors were rather cheap to produce and easy to film (ever thought why so many crew members have changed over the years on MV?). 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Tom

[ViceFanMan]

19 minutes ago, Tom said:

I disagree. MV was a zeitgeist TV show, much more than any of the long running series today. And viewer´s interest is different. In the 80s there was much more and faster change in taste. Ratings dropped after season 2 (from 9 to 35, in season 4 it dropped only from around 35 to 45) although the scripts were great in season 3, but many viewers turned their backs due to darker colors and different music selection as THEY were only on style and did not look out for substance. That is rather proof for my zeitgeist argument then for bad writing.

But of course you are right that season 4 script quality was partly insane. But in general I think MV was not designed to be a 6-10 year running show like CSI, Law&Order, Criminal Minds, etc just because it was so 80s connected in many ways that it had its own destruction clock built in. And, we may not forget the huge production cost and the associated effort to film it on site in Miami which was unprecedented and had its toll too. No other series did go that length back then. All direct competitors were rather cheap to produce and to film. 

I didn’t necessarily mean that MV would have lasted 15 seasons like CSI or CM of today...back then shows didn’t usually last quite that long. At that time the original “5-0” was the longest lasting crime drama with 12 seasons (although Gunsmoke was on for 20). However, the changes in writers & producers did not help MV. If they had kept the same people initially involved (that made MV the icon it was/is) and put out better scripts/episodes, I still say MV could have definitely gone beyond 5 years/seasons. All of the changes screwed the show over...they changed it too soon or fast. The interest or taste of TV viewers in the 80s had been basically set by shows like Magnum & MV. When MV started drastically changing everything, plus popped out bizarre crap for several episodes, it ruined the series. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

15 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

The Hoff and his wife shot an episode together (when Micheal Knight gets married with his former life fiance and she gets shot) during the final season of the show. That was meant to be aired as last episode/finale. But the NBC aired it mid-season.The episode in question was 'The scent of roses' and would have been a more appropriate choice for an ending.

True! However, from what I understand, have read, & have heard David Hasselhoff himself talk about in interviews, they did expect KR to come back for a 5th season...it’s cancellation after the end of Season 4 was somewhat of a shock. So, the voodoo episode (if I remember correctly) was the last episode of the show...not a planned finale episode. 

[Tom]

vor 1 Minute schrieb ViceFanMan:

I didn’t necessarily mean that MV would have lasted 15 seasons like CSI or CM like today...back then shows didn’t usually last quite that long. At that time the original “5-0” was the longest lasting crime drama with 12 seasons (although Gunsmoke was on for 20). However, the changes in writers & producers did not help MV. If they had kept the same people initially involved (that made MV the icon it was/is) and put out better scripts/episodes, I still say MV could have definitely gone beyond 5 years/seasons. All of the changes screwed the show over...they changed it too soon or fast. The interest or taste of TV viewers in the 80s had been basically set by shows like Magnum & MV. When MV started drastically changing everything, plus popped out bizarre crap for several episodes, it ruined the series. 

Lot of true arguments. Nevertheless, the big drop in ratings came with the color changes (or let´s just say some changes in elements people were used to) after season 2 and a bit more serious tone (no Elvis, less comedy), not with bad scripts. And MV has never really recovered from that. The conclusion of this is that many viewers were very superficial and did not forgive smaller adjustments. But even if MV had maintained the same recipe in all seasons the show would have gone downhill after 5 or 6 seasons.

[Tom]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan:

True! However, from what I understand, have read, & have heard David Hasselhoff himself talk about in interviews, they did expect KR to come back for a 5th season...it’s cancellation after the end of Season 4 was somewhat of a shock. So, the voodoo episode (if I remember correctly) was the last episode of the show...not a planned finale episode. 

What I heard is that it was unclear if they came back for a fifth season. So it was no big surprise to anyone. They considered either to cancel or to cut it down to shorter 30 min episodes. That´s why Hasselhoff conceived a final episode in the first place. He obviously felt that it was over for a reason. Under given circumstances it would have been much smarter to air the Hasselhoff script as last episode of season 4, just in case it was over.

[ViceFanMan]

20 minutes ago, Tom said:

Lot of true arguments. Nevertheless, the big drop in ratings came with the color changes (or let´s just say some changes in elements people were used to) after season 2 and a bit more serious tone (no Elvis, less comedy), not with bad scripts. And MV has never really recovered from that. The conclusion of this is that many viewers were very superficial and did not forgive smaller adjustments. But even if MV had maintained the same recipe in all seasons the show would have gone downhill after 5 or 6 seasons.

I agree...viewers lots of times don’t forgive changes when a show has definitely “set” some iconic aspects. That’s the thing, MV had too many changes too quick. If they had kept the better writers, and put out better episodes (as well as kept some of the pastel colors) I still say MV would have at least had a 6th if not 7th or 8th season. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

Here’s a goofy piece of irony. When people think 70s TV, they think Charlie’s Angels...when you say 80s TV, they think Miami Vice. Both are two of the most iconic shows of their decades & in TV history...yet both only lasted 5 seasons. However, CA was supposedly cancelled because it wouldn’t change & kept doing the same thing over & over. Yet, MV was eventually cancelled because of too many changes! Sometimes you can’t win.  But, in my opinion, both were eventually cancelled because of bad/poor scripts/episodes. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[sdiegolo78]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

I disagree. MV was a zeitgeist TV show, much more than any of the long running series today. And viewer´s interest was different. In the 80s there was much more and faster change in taste from one year to the other than today as far as crime series are concerned (Criminal Minds for example does the same for 15 years - every episode looks the same - MV could not have afforded that kind of doing all the same for 15 seasons). Ratings dropped after season 2 (from 9 to 35, in season 4 it dropped only from around 35 to 45) although the scripts were great in season 3, but many viewers turned their backs due to darker colors and different music selection as THEY were only on style and did not look out for substance. That is rather proof for my zeitgeist argument then for bad writing. My point is even with better scripts and everyone engaged MV would have hardly lasted for more than 6 seasons for above stated reasons.

But of course you are right that season 4 script quality was partly insane. But in general I think MV was not designed to be a 6-10 year running show like CSI, Law&Order, Criminal Minds, etc just because it was so 80s connected in many ways that it had its own destruction clock built in. And, we may not forget the huge production cost and the associated effort to film it on site in Miami which was unprecedented and had its toll too. No other series did go that length back then. All direct competitors were rather cheap to produce and easy to film (ever thought why so many crew members have changed over the years on MV?). 

Realistically, i think MV could have maybe stretched until the very early 90s (90 to no later than 92), provided NBC, the producers and the cast were all willing to continue and the show picked up from the strong points of S5. I couldn't have seen MV continue well into the 90s. A decline or end is always inevitable anyway. Fashion, trend and audience taste can make a no matter how successful show  outdated rather quickly. Therefore, I to a large extent agree with MV being mostly a 'zeitgeist' show.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, sdiegolo78 said:

Realistically, i think MV could have maybe stretched until the very early 90s (90 to no later than 92), provided NBC, the producers and the cast were all willing to continue and the show picked up from the strong points of S5. I couldn't have seen MV continue well into the 90s. A decline or end is always inevitable anyway. Fashion, trend and audience taste can make a no matter how successful show  outdated rather quickly. Therefore, I to a large extent agree with MV being mostly a 'zeitgeist' show.

If they had had better writers & producers were more invested, I definitely think the show could have had a 6th season...which would have been 90. I also think it could have had a 7th or 8th—being 92. Some of the styles & colors of the 80s were still present in the early 90s. Silk Stalkings proved that.  

[sdiegolo78]

47 minutes ago, Tom said:

What I heard is that it was unclear if they came back for a fifth season. So it was no big surprise to anyone. They considered either to cancel or to cut it down to shorter 30 min episodes. That´s why Hasselhoff conceived a final episode in the first place. He obviously felt that it was over for a reason. Under given circumstances it would have been much smarter to air the Hasselhoff script as last episode of season 4, just in case it was over.

Knight rider ratings started dropping from third season which aired during the '84-'85 NBC TV season. The last two seasons of the show, if you remember, had the most changes applied to K.I.T.T. after being destroyed. It was even re-built from scratch for the final seasons with the super pursuit mode and convertible mod with the roof down. Those gimmick were intended to save the show so to speak and keep fans interested. Ratings did not improve eventually.

[sdiegolo78]

3 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

If they had had better writers & producers were more invested, I definitely think the show could have had a 6th season...which would have been 90. I also think it could have had a 7th or 8th—being 92. Some of the styles & colors of the 80s were still present in the early 90s. Silk Stalkings proved that.  

I liked silk stalkings and had some late MV vibe to it...Yes, that's what I'm saying, it would have taken better writers and more invested producers for it to continue for another 2-3 years. And I agree the fashion and trends of the early 90s were not too far off from those in '88-'89.

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

Knight rider ratings started dropping from third season which aired during the '84-'85 NBC TV season. The last two seasons of the show, if you remember, had the most changes applied to K.I.T.T. after being destroyed. It was even re-built from scratch for the final seasons with the super pursuit mode and convertible mod with the roof down. Those gimmick were intended to save the show so to speak and keep fans interested. Ratings did not improve eventually.

I remember all of it, lol!  Roof down was kind of cool...the super pursuit mode was a little over the top. NBC was kind of known to “abandon” shows and then cancel them after a season or two, when ratings start falling. I think KR had potential to go another season or two...but my opinion. 

[sdiegolo78]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

I remember all of it, lol!  Roof down was kind of cool...the super pursuit mode was a little over the top. NBC was kind of known to “abandon” shows and then cancel them after a season or two, when ratings start falling. I think KR had potential to go another season or two...but my opinion. 

yes, and considering computer technology was advancing fast in those years.

[ViceFanMan]

Just now, sdiegolo78 said:

yes, and considering computer technology was advancing fast in those years.

True! But they were getting a little carried away with KR towards the end...David Hasselhoff hit the roof and said no way, when they thought about making KITT fly, lol! But, for the time the “over-done” advancing technology was kind of the style & to try and showcase advancing computerized technology. Nowadays EVERYTHING has to be totally realistic and real-life. We’ve lost a lot of imagination. 

[sdiegolo78]

5 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

True! But they were getting a little carried away with KR towards the end...David Hasselhoff hit the roof and said no way, when they thought about making KITT fly, lol! But, for the time the “over-done” advancing technology was kind of the style & to try and showcase advancing computerized technology. Nowadays EVERYTHING has to be totally realistic and real-life. We’ve lost a lot of imagination. 

According to some fans and critics, KR sort of actually 'jumped the shark' in S2 ("return to Cadiz" epsiode) when it went in the water...and it did go airborne too twice when it parachuted in the second part of "Goliath returns" and during a final season episode.