Episode #111 "Freefall"

[wolfie1996]

3 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

I see Crockett's turn as a nervous breakdown (I believe later dialogue referred to it as a "psychotic break"). I actually had a nervous breakdown in the late 1990's, and no, I didn't become a drug lord (what Crockett became was what he pretended to be for so long, it became real; absurd, but I like it).

Couldn't agree more with you,Eillio. I liked the scenario and I did find it believable enough.

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

The thing is, though, people are complex and Crockett certainly was. It's why we like him! The implication was that he'd been affected also by constantly living undercover as a different persona and having to keep yourself in that mindset so you don't do anything out of  character. Anyway, most people would kill given the right circumstances. It isn't an inbuilt thing that you'll remain law abiding whatever  happens

 True, the complexity and the different things that Crockett had to experience made his character interesting. But, there’s “complexity”, and then there’s just flat out psycho insanity, LOL!  Especially in self-defense situations, even some revenge ones, yes people sometimes kill. But, not that many want to or wish those they like to become psychos. It was just too destructive and bizarre for the character of Crockett and the show. 

[Titus]

1 hour ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

For myself, I think Season 3 has the best overall content in terms of storylines and grit but the worst mood; I feel there's a lack of intimacy between the show & the audience there.

Totally agree. Season 3 is my LEAST favorite. That disc has remained in the case for a very long time now.

[Titus]

1 hour ago, Adrian321 said:

the Burnett saga are 6th, 7th and 8th favourite episodes.

I'm glad somebody else said it first . I happen to love the Burnett saga, including all the ridiculous Sheena Easton episodes. I know they suck and are over-the-top ridiculous, but I don't care. They're fun as hell... almost dreamlike because they're so out of touch with reality. (Maybe they were just a dream Crockett had... anyone ever thought of that? I'm sure someone has.)

I also liked the fact Crockett was losing his way in S4-S5. It made him more of an interesting character. He was an idealistic gung-ho "save the world" cowboy in the first two seasons but was now a jaded, burned out shell of the person he used to be... and Don Johnson handled it perfectly. His performance radically shifted. (It probably wasn't too hard because by S5 the cast and crew knew the ship was sinking.) Then, to top it all off, the final goodbye scene at the end of "Freefall" made it all worthwhile. Couldn't have asked for a better series ending.

(But I always play "Crockett's Theme" over the flashbacks. Terry Kath's song never worked for me.)

[wolfie1996]

5 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

True, the complexity and the different things that Crockett had to experience made his character interesting. But, there’s “complexity”, and then there’s just flat out psycho insanity, LOL!  Especially in self-defense situations, even some revenge ones, yes people sometimes kill. But, not that many want to or wish those they like to become psychos. It was just too destructive and bizarre for the character of Crockett and the show.

I respect your opinion on Crockett's lapse but I don't know whether you can refer to him as a psycho because he never killed an innocent person during the whole  of that amnesia  period  that I can think of. They were all worthless scum. I accept that he  did think he'd shot Tubbs though. But I think that was to heighten the drama. Psychopaths  don't "become" psychopaths, whatever the crisis or whatever happening to them.  They are born that way  and cannot be "rehabilitated" and don't change. It was more like insanity but a temporary one brought on by "the balance of the mind being disturbed". Do you like him any the less for it? I don't.

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, Titus said:

I also liked the fact Crockett was losing his way in S4-S5. It made him more of an interesting character. He was an idealistic gung-ho "save the world" cowboy in the first two seasons but was now a jaded, burned out shell of the person he used to be... and Don Johnson handled it perfectly. His performance radically shifted. (It probably wasn't too hard because by S5 the cast and crew knew the ship was sinking.) Then, to top it all off, the final goodbye scene at the end of "Freefall" made it all worthwhile. Couldn't have asked for a better series ending.

(But I always play "Crockett's Theme" over the flashbacks. Terry Kath's song never worked for me.)

Excellent post, Titus, and I fully agree with you e Crockett. Though I'd have preferred that they didn't go their  separate ways at the end.

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

I respect your opinion on Crockett's lapse but I don't know whether you can refer to him as a psycho because he never killed an innocent person during the whole  of that amnesia  period  that I can think of. They were all worthless scum. I accept that he  did think he'd shot Tubbs though. But I think that was to heighten the drama. Psychopaths  don't "become" psychopaths, whatever the crisis or whatever happening to them.  They are born that way  and cannot be "rehabilitated" and don't change. It was more like insanity but a temporary one brought on by "the balance of the mind being disturbed". Do you like him any the less for it? I don't.

I don’t fully believe psychos are born that way...some may be for whatever reasons, but I think environment and what they’re exposed to also contributes. 

But, they basically turned Crockett into one. True, he may not have had as much “joy” in killing as say Hackman did...but he still had no problem doing it and shooting Tubbs was definitely insane. I agree it was all done for shock value, but when you pretty much destroy a well-liked character on a TV show...then “magically” try and make him all okay again, it’s not going to work well.

It was just thugs killing thugs...and fans considered C&T ‘above’ that. They were to try and stop that stuff...so when one just joins in and was no different than the other drug dealer killers, it ruined the character and caused ratings to fall even further. 

[wolfie1996]

4 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I don’t fully believe psychos are born that way...some may be for whatever reasons, but I think environment and what they’re exposed to also contributes. 

In fact they are born that way because mentally they lack empathy for the suffering of others. You can't learn empathy nor instil it. That's why most of them should be locked away permanently. There's no "cure".

[Adrian321]

27 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

In fact they are born that way because mentally they lack empathy for the suffering of others. You can't learn empathy nor instil it. That's why most of them should be locked away permanently. There's no "cure".

There are some kind of nerve cells called "mirror cells". They give us the ability to emphatize. It is said that sociopaths and pshychopaths have less to none of these nerve cells.

That is why most  of them can do bad stuff without feeling remorse. I don't blame them, since.......... they can't really feel that what they are doing is bad, they may have an idea by what other people consider, but their subjective state doesn't let them experience this, either they can tell that what they are doing is bad, but they don't care at all. It is like asking a blind person to see an image or a deaf person to hear a song. They don't have the neccesary equipment in their body. I sometimes feel sad about sociopaths and psychos, since they can't live a normal life, just as much as for a blind or deaf person. 

I also hate the "Envirovement" argument used in biological subjects. I've debated social constructors in the past, and no, biological things are biological. Not societal. Anyways,  I won't put more detail into this, however, I agree that the envirovement increases something that is there already. It can't create something which isn't there, so yea. If a person has some "loose ends" to a mental condition, then yes, the envirovment can "awake" that thing.

So Crockett becoming a "psychopath" is a really intresting theory to discuss, however, I won't agree with it, since he felt remorse, guilt, sadness everytime something bad happened to people he cared. Psychos may feel sadness (not THE kind we do though), but they never exhibit emphaty, that sadness that they lost someone, like Crockett had done in the series.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Adrian321
error

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, Adrian321 said:

There are some kind of nerve cells called "mirror cells". They give us the ability to emphatize. It is said that sociopaths and pshychopaths have less to none of these nerve cells.

That is why most  of them can do bad stuff without feeling remorse. I don't blame them, since.......... they can't really feel that what they are doing is bad, they may have an idea by what other people consider, but their subjective state doesn't let them experience this. It is like asking a blind person to see an image or a deaf person to hear a song. They don't have the neccesary equipment.

I also hate the "Envirovement" argument used in biological subjects. I've debated social constructors in the past, and no, biological things are biological. Not societal. Anyways,  I won't put more detail into this, however, I agree that the envirovement increases something that is there already. It can't create something which isn't there, so yea. If a person has some "loose ends" to a mental condition, then yes, the envirovment can "awake" that thing.

So Crockett becoming a "psychopath" is a really intresting theory to discuss, however, I won't agree with it, since he felt remorse, guilt, sadness everytime something bad happened to people he cared. Psychos may feel sadness (not THE kind we do though), but they never exhibit emphaty, that sadness that they lost someone, like Crockett had done in the series.

Thanks for providing a far  more detailed  explanation than I did, Adrian. You're absolutely right, if Crockett had  been a psychopath he could never have been the person  we knew earlier in the series. The thing about him was that he DID care about people and was capable of enormous feelings of guilt, remorse, sadness etc and also was capable of (even) a comforting hug for another man. That says to me he had  massive empathy with the distress of others . It's why we love him, right? 

[ViceFanMan]

35 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Thanks for providing a far  more detailed  explanation than I did, Adrian. You're absolutely right, if Crockett had  been a psychopath he could never have been the person  we knew earlier in the series. The thing about him was that he DID care about people and was capable of enormous feelings of guilt, remorse, sadness etc and also was capable of (even) a comforting hug for another man. That says to me he had  massive empathy with the distress of others . It's why we love him, right? 

I agree...Crockett was a caring person who wanted to help others. He wasn’t initially a “psycho”, despite what he’d been through & experienced in his life/career. So when they turned him into one for the Burnett episodes it came across as destructive and totally ridiculous for his character. 

[wolfie1996]

3 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree...Crockett was a caring person who wanted to help others. He wasn’t initially a “psycho”, despite what he’d been through & experienced in his life/career. So when they turned him into one for the Burnett episodes it came across as destructive and totally ridiculous for his character.

Ah but the thing is, they didn't "turn him into a psycho"- they presented him as someone who had had a mental breakdown and thus acted OUT of character (presumably triggered by the physical injury of the explosion.) If he had "become" a real psychopath , this would have been ridiculous because you either  are born one or you're not.

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

I don’t fully believe psychos are born that way...some may be for whatever reasons, but I think environment and what they’re exposed to also contributes. 

But, they basically turned Crockett into one. True, he may not have had as much “joy” in killing as say Hackman did...but he still had no problem doing it and shooting Tubbs was definitely insane. I agree it was all done for shock value, but when you pretty much destroy a well-liked character on a TV show...then “magically” try and make him all okay again, it’s not going to work well. (snipped)

I disagree that Crockett was turned into a "psycho" or that he went "insane".  According to the storyline, he suffered a head injury that resulted in amnesia.  Upon awakening/ return of consciousness, he was in a strange environment, surrounded by strangers, who basically told him he was a drug dealer/ a criminal.

His actions weren't insane or psychotic; he was fully aware that he was living the life of a criminal, a drug dealer, and his actions were criminal--but the cause (as portrayed by the storyline) was that he was living an identity consistent with the environment he found himself in.  The criminal identity he assumed was related to his undercover identity of Sonny Burnett, although it was much harder-edged than Burnett had previously been portrayed.  He didn't suddenly turn into a Hannibal Lecter type, but adopted the behavior and lifestyle of the drug dealers he had associated with for the past 10 (or whatever!) years. 

There was certainly some suspension of disbelief required in order to accept that such things would occur in real life, but Crockett's psyche was so damaged by his experience of Caitlin's murder, his own violation of his oath as a police officer in killing Hackman, his traumatic head injury (all of these on top of the years of living undercover life) that I felt it was possible.  And he wasn't shown as "magically" being OK again; in fact although I believe it was completely unrealistic to portray that he would ever work undercover again, there were attempts to show he was suspended and made to get counseling.  Although Caitlin for the most part was dropped into the "memory bucket" never to be retrieved except when Tubbs called him out, he was obviously struggling throughout most of S5.  Yes, there were missed opportunities to make the outcome of the Burnett saga more realistic, but the show was already on its way out.  I don't believe the outcome of the Burnett saga "caused ratings to fall even further."  They were really already at a point of no return, and everyone, including the network, was ready to move on since with 100 episodes in the can, the show could be syndicated.

[Adrian321]

17 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree...Crockett was a caring person who wanted to help others. He wasn’t initially a “psycho”, despite what he’d been through & experienced in his life/career. So when they turned him into one for the Burnett episodes it came across as destructive and totally ridiculous for his character. 

I don't think that was so "destructive" considering that during amnesia he was just half-Crockett; half-Burnett. Also, he killed pieces of ####, like other drug dealers, and he didn't kill any of the cast, so in the long run, I don't think it is as "destructive" as you make it seem. Sure, it does make up for some confusions and some strong sense of guilt, HOWEVER, that doesn't ruin Crockett's character, since he also came back to his original state.

Also, from a visual point of view, can we atleast agree that the Burnett saga offers high quallity ? The Burnett-surrender scene, the alleyway fog shooting,the limo explosion (most detailed and cool explosion in MV) the boat cliffhanger, the beach dream (such quality, when I first saw it I was eye open, mouth open, eye open) that "breakfast-lunch and dinner" actress, new characters and some style ? Also that action. Damn....... MV at its best for me. Also, we got Jann Hammer's last appearance with Mirror Image.

If we take the story-part aside, that we can still debate, now comes the question:

"If these episodes were just a dream, that the boat explosion in the beggining set Crockett in a coma for one month or two, would you actually find these episodes good ?"

This question comes, since you stress the fact that they were over-the-top. Is it that bad that they were over-the-top ? Or is it bad because of the story that wrecks the character, and amplified by this ?

I feel like I enjoyed these episodes so much BECAUSE they were the way they are.

Wouldn't that make many more fan-favourite episodes like "Brother's keeper" also seem over-the-top ?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Adrian321
Forgot something

[wolfie1996]

22 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

There was certainly some suspension of disbelief required in order to accept that such things would occur in real life, but Crockett's psyche was so damaged by his experience of Caitlin's murder, his own violation of his oath as a police officer in killing Hackman, his traumatic head injury (all of these on top of the years of living undercover life) that I felt it was possible.  And he wasn't shown as "magically" being OK again; in fact although I believe it was completely unrealistic to portray that he would ever work undercover again, there were attempts to show he was suspended and made to get counseling.  Although Caitlin for the most part was dropped into the "memory bucket" never to be retrieved except when Tubbs called him out, he was obviously struggling throughout most of S5.  Yes, there were missed opportunities to make the outcome of the Burnett saga more realistic, but the show was already on its way out.  I don't believe the outcome of the Burnett saga "caused ratings to fall even further."  They were really already at a point of no return, and everyone, including the network, was ready to move on since with 100 episodes in the can, the show could be syndicated.

Good post, vicegirl85, very explanatory and well expressed. I fully agree with your points.

[ViceFanMan]

21 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Ah but the thing is, they didn't "turn him into a psycho"- they presented him as someone who had had a mental breakdown and thus acted OUT of character (presumably triggered by the physical injury of the explosion.) If he had "become" a real psychopath , this would have been ridiculous because you either  are born one or you're not.

I don’t believe that all psychos are born that way...some may be for whatever reasons (some kind of brain abnormalities or damage, drug use by mom when pregnant, etc...), but I think what that person experiences or their environment (especially while growing up) also has a lot to do with it.

Crockett didn’t really have a mental breakdown...he supposedly became a psycho when he lost his memory. Maybe not the same type of psycho as Hackman...but he still fully knew what he was doing & the choices he was making...he had no trouble killing and or doing things to purposely cause others to kill each other. 

This was not who Crockett initially was (even when pretending to be Burnett while undercover), so even under the belief he was Burnett after the boat explosion, the whole thing just became ridiculous and it was destructive to the character. 

[Adrian321]

32 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I don’t believe that all psychos are born that way...some may be for whatever reasons (some kind of brain abnormalities or damage, drug use by mom when pregnant, etc...), but I think what that person experiences or their environment (especially while growing up) also has a lot to do with it.

Crockett didn’t really have a mental breakdown...he supposedly became a psycho when he lost his memory. Maybe not the same type of psycho as Hackman...but he still fully knew what he was doing & the choices he was making...he had no trouble killing and or doing things to purposely cause others to kill each other. 

This was not who Crockett initially was (even when pretending to be Burnett while undercover), so even under the belief he was Burnett after the boat explosion, the whole thing just became ridiculous and it was destructive to the character. 

As I said before. If there are some connections to a lack of "mirror cells", genetically let's say, and the envirovment is not good, then yes, I agree that someone can "become" a psycho, but it's technically false, since they already lacked "mirror cells" or had a "weak link" in them. So, technically, they already were. I don't consider "envirovment" things like drug abuse when the mother is pregnant, since that is the initial development state, I consider "envirovment" the outside world. I consider this example you gave me to be "Alteration" . The brain damage, to actually cause a person to become a sociopath or a pshycopath has to be so severe, that they wouldn't be able to walk or talk, pay attention,etc anymore if they aren't dead.

The majority of these cells lie in the premotor cortex or anterior cortex. That covers quite a large brain area. (and also in a few other areas)

 

FUN FACT: If you'd damage the brain area so much in the frontal lobe (enough that you could turn a person into a psycho by removing most of their "mirror cells", they'd likely suffer from other psychiatric disseases aswell, besides suffering from the almost-cerain "veggie-state" since this area also has other functions. Also, the anterior cortex has function in attention. So..... you can't really turn a person into a psycho. I wanted to clarify.

 

(or the *person* instead of "mother" if we belive the progressist propaganda- since not only women can get pregnant, but also the other 700+ "sexes", lol, you can ignore this frament, but I find it fun to roast my and society's enemies).

Usually, people that are being abused, either turn themselves in 1 out of 2. Either another abuser, or a hyper-empathetic person. Usually, the ones with less "mirror cells" become abusers, and the ones with more of them become the hyper-caring ones, since they can solider through all of this. These "mirror cells" play a role in realization, like that old proverb: Don't do something to someone that you wouldn't want them to do to you. The more "mirror cells" we have, the more we can realize that a certain envirovment/situation is and would not do us any good, and won't incorporate it. Has been seen in housewives abused by their hustbands. They tend to be extra careful and caring towards their children. Not most of the time, but it is a thing that happens. Yes, those wives may become abusive mothers, but I just gave an example that it's not a general rule. It may apply or not.

 It depends on the kind of abuse though also. If it invloves the bashing of the head too much, then yea, any person will loose all kinds of brain cells, and the person might become less emphathetic. The brain is a sensitive organ afterall, though, also one of the toughest. Not to mention, that nerve cells don't regrow. 

Even in this case, you can't become psychopathic. Theoretically you could, but as I stated earlier, you'd also probably become a living vegetable if the plan succeded. I put this scenario in turning a moral-person into a pshyco, just so we can realize how near-impossible that is.

And I am sorry if I went off-topic too much.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Adrian321

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

55 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I disagree that Crockett was turned into a "psycho" or that he went "insane".  According to the storyline, he suffered a head injury that resulted in amnesia.  Upon awakening/ return of consciousness, he was in a strange environment, surrounded by strangers, who basically told him he was a drug dealer/ a criminal.

His actions weren't insane or psychotic; he was fully aware that he was living the life of a criminal, a drug dealer, and his actions were criminal--but the cause (as portrayed by the storyline) was that he was living an identity consistent with the environment he found himself in.  The criminal identity he assumed was related to his undercover identity of Sonny Burnett, although it was much harder-edged than Burnett had previously been portrayed.  He didn't suddenly turn into a Hannibal Lecter type, but adopted the behavior and lifestyle of the drug dealers he had associated with for the past 10 (or whatever!) years. 

There was certainly some suspension of disbelief required in order to accept that such things would occur in real life, but Crockett's psyche was so damaged by his experience of Caitlin's murder, his own violation of his oath as a police officer in killing Hackman, his traumatic head injury (all of these on top of the years of living undercover life) that I felt it was possible.  And he wasn't shown as "magically" being OK again; in fact although I believe it was completely unrealistic to portray that he would ever work undercover again, there were attempts to show he was suspended and made to get counseling.  Although Caitlin for the most part was dropped into the "memory bucket" never to be retrieved except when Tubbs called him out, he was obviously struggling throughout most of S5.  Yes, there were missed opportunities to make the outcome of the Burnett saga more realistic, but the show was already on its way out.  I don't believe the outcome of the Burnett saga "caused ratings to fall even further."  They were really already at a point of no return, and everyone, including the network, was ready to move on since with 100 episodes in the can, the show could be syndicated.

Suspension of disbelief and heightened reality, which allows me to enjoy the Sonny Burnett arc from that point of view; it makes sense in some ways, but it doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's okay. Nowadays if a plot like this was to take hold I think the rough edges would be smoothed out more, but for 1988, I think this is great stuff.

[ViceFanMan]

24 minutes ago, Adrian321 said:

As I said before. If there are some connections to a lack of "mirror cells", genetically let's say, and the envirovment is not good, then yes, I agree that someone can "become" a psycho, but it's technically false, since they already lacked "mirror cells" or had a "weak link" in them. So, technically, they already were. I don't consider "envirovment" things like drug abuse when the mother is pregnant, since that is the initial development state, I consider "envirovment" the outside world. I consider this example you gave me to be "Alteration" . The brain damage, to actually cause a person to become a sociopath or a pshycopath has to be so severe, that they wouldn't be able to walk or talk, pay attention,etc anymore if they aren't dead.

The majority of these cells lie in the premotor cortex or anterior cortex. That covers quite a large brain area. (and also in a few other areas)

 

FUN FACT: If you'd damage the brain area so much in the frontal lobe (enough that you could turn a person into a psycho by removing most of their "mirror cells", they'd likely suffer from other psychiatric disseases aswell, besides suffering from the almost-cerain "veggie-state" since this area also has other functions. Also, the anterior cortex has function in attention. So..... you can't really turn a person into a psycho. I wanted to clarify.

 

(or the *person* instead of "mother" if we belive the progressist propaganda- since not only women can get pregnant, but also the other 700+ "sexes", lol, you can ignore this frament, but I find it fun to roast my and society's enemies).

Usually, people that are being abused, either turn themselves in 1 out of 2. Either another abuser, or a hyper-empathetic person. Usually, the ones with less "mirror cells" become abusers, and the ones with more of them become the hyper-caring ones, since they can solider through all of this. These "mirror cells" play a role in realization, like that old proverb: Don't do something to someone that you wouldn't want them to do to you. The more "mirror cells" we have, the more we can realize that a certain envirovment/situation is and would not do us any good, and won't incorporate it. Has been seen in housewives abused by their hustbands. They tend to be extra careful and caring towards their children. Not most of the time, but it is a thing that happens. Yes, those wives may become abusive mothers, but I just gave an example that it's not a general rule. It may apply or not.

 It depends on the kind of abuse though also. If it invloves the bashing of the head too much, then yea, any person will loose all kinds of brain cells, and the person might become less emphathetic. The brain is a sensitive organ afterall, though, also one of the toughest. Not to mention, that nerve cells don't regrow. 

Even in this case, you can't become psychopathic. Theoretically you could, but as I stated earlier, you'd also probably become a living vegetable if the plan succeded. I put this scenario in turning a moral-person into a pshyco, just so we can realize how near-impossible that is.

And I am sorry if I went off-topic too much.

But, that’s kind of my point with part of what you said...a moral person (or person with some morals and care for others) doesn’t just go psycho or become a killer just because they supposedly have some kind of brain injury from an accident. That’s why the Burnett episodes were ridiculous. 

However, you’re right...this whole discussion on Burnett and those episodes is actually way off topic for Freefall...which is what this thread is about. So, we probably should end this topic here. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

But, that’s kind of my point with part of what you said...a moral person (or person with some morals and care for others) doesn’t just go psycho or become a killer just because they supposedly have some kind of brain injury from an accident. That’s why the Burnett episodes were ridiculous. 

However, you’re right...this whole discussion on Burnett and those episodes are actually way off topic for Freefall...which is what this thread is about. So, we probably should end this topic here. 

There's a strong reminder of the Sonny Burnett arc for me in 'Freefall' when Crockett interacts with Highsmith, and knowing that at one time Crockett really had lost it.

[Adrian321]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

But, that’s kind of my point with part of what you said...a moral person (or person with some morals and care for others) doesn’t just go psycho or become a killer just because they supposedly have some kind of brain injury from an accident. That’s why the Burnett episodes were ridiculous. 

However, you’re right...this whole discussion on Burnett and those episodes are actually way off topic for Freefall...which is what this thread is about. So, we probably should end this topic here. 

Sort of, but the issue of Crockett is way more complex than becoming a psycho.

He became a whole another person- Burnett. Also, after suffering the death of his wife and executing Hackman, that amnesia thing could actually make sense. If you feel like that thing- a villain, before the amnesia happens, it is likely you'd think you are what you thought you were. Anyways, that may be violating my rule there. But who knows, maybe that explosion could've damaged the mirror cells for a period, until they connected themselves. While brain cells don't multiply, they can grow stronger connections. Also, the glial cells can become nerve cells if neccesary. They do multiply, they do feed the neurons, and they can replace some of the lost neurons.

I found another reason why I like the Burnett saga. It is hard to make concludent decisions. It is ALWAYS open for both pro and con arguments. It is also complex even on the psychiatric level. You can come with several explanations, even using biology.

 

[ViceFanMan]

Just now, Adrian321 said:

Sort of, but the issue of Crockett is way more complex than becoming a psycho.

He became a whole another person- Burnett. Also, after suffering the death of his wife and executing Hackman, that amnesia thing could actually make sense. If you feel like that thing- a villain, before the amnesia happens, it is likely you'd think you are what you thought you were. Anyways, that may be violating my rule there. But who knows, maybe that explosion could've damaged the mirror cells for a period, until they connected themselves. While brain cells don't multiply, they can grow stronger connections. Also, the glial cells can become nerve cells if neccesary. They do multiply, they do feed the neurons, and they can replace some of the lost neurons.

I found another reason why I like the Burnett saga. It is hard to make concludent decisions. It is ALWAYS open for both pro and con arguments. It is also complex even on the psychiatric level. You can come with several explanations, even using biology.

 

I don’t really think you can use real life biology or even psychology to make those episodes realistic. It’s all off the charts ridiculous. Even more ridiculous that he supposedly was all back to normal and was allowed to return as a cop. 

[Adrian321]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

I don’t really think you can use real life biology or even psychology to make those episodes realistic. It’s all off the charts ridiculous. Even more ridiculous that he supposedly was all back to normal and was allowed to return as a cop. 

Not biology as a whole. But arguments from it. I used it earlier to support my argument that Crockett didn't ruin his character. 

And yea........ the last part, being allowed to return is ridiculous. I can't dissagree with you on this one.

[Adrian321]

2 hours ago, Adrian321 said:

There are some kind of nerve cells called "mirror cells". They give us the ability to emphatize. It is said that sociopaths and pshychopaths have less to none of these nerve cells.

That is why most  of them can do bad stuff without feeling remorse. I don't blame them, since.......... they can't really feel that what they are doing is bad, they may have an idea by what other people consider, but their subjective state doesn't let them experience this, either they can tell that what they are doing is bad, but they don't care at all. It is like asking a blind person to see an image or a deaf person to hear a song. They don't have the neccesary equipment in their body. I sometimes feel sad about sociopaths and psychos, since they can't live a normal life, just as much as for a blind or deaf person. 

I also hate the "Envirovement" argument used in biological subjects. I've debated social constructors in the past, and no, biological things are biological. Not societal. Anyways,  I won't put more detail into this, however, I agree that the envirovement increases something that is there already. It can't create something which isn't there, so yea. If a person has some "loose ends" to a mental condition, then yes, the envirovment can "awake" that thing.

So Crockett becoming a "psychopath" is a really intresting theory to discuss, however, I won't agree with it, since he felt remorse, guilt, sadness everytime something bad happened to people he cared. Psychos may feel sadness (not THE kind we do though), but they never exhibit emphaty, that sadness that they lost someone, like Crockett had done in the series.

Based on these arguments. Crockett became Burnett, then returned to being Crockett. Otherwise there is no logical answer to this that I can think of.

[Adrian321]

14 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

But, that’s kind of my point with part of what you said...a moral person (or person with some morals and care for others) doesn’t just go psycho or become a killer just because they supposedly have some kind of brain injury from an accident. That’s why the Burnett episodes were ridiculous. 

However, you’re right...this whole discussion on Burnett and those episodes is actually way off topic for Freefall...which is what this thread is about. So, we probably should end this topic here. 

And yes, I think we should end the topic now..... We made like 2-3 pages on "Freefall" about the Burnett saga. That is funny somehow when I think about it. How carried away we get when we want to proove/disproove something.