What would Sonny do??

[mjcmmv]

Love-life advice from a pro!  

 

https://www.theplunge.com/relationships/dating-lessons-from-Miami-Vice

 

 

 

[Robbie C.]

Biggest takeaway - if it's cray, stay away. 

Sonny always had a thing for people with problems or issues. Not a good trait in his line of work.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Robbie C.

[Bren10]

Dr Drew would say Sonny seeked out chaotic personality types.  But then there aren't many normal types in the world he inhabits to begin with.  I think Sonny would find a normal civilian relationship too mundane in reality, even though he thinks he might want it at times.  

[mjcmmv]

41 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Biggest takeaway - if it's cray, stay away. 

Sonny always had a thing for people with problems or issues. Not a good trait in his line of work.

You're so right! His track record with relationships was a disaster! 

[Gary1911A1]

Smart men don't marry or fall in love with any just one woman. 

[Matt5]

3 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

Love-life advice from a pro!  

 

https://www.theplunge.com/relationships/dating-lessons-from-Miami-Vice

 

 

 

Just great.

[RedDragon86]

2 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

You're so right! His track record with relationships was a disaster! 

He's a lot like Vincent in "Heat", marriage and being a cop doesn't work for some, I think Crockett cared more about his job than he did for having a relationship,  even with Caitlin there were moments where work got in the way and they argued because of it.

Edited March 23, 2019 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Dr Drew would say Sonny seeked out chaotic personality types.  But then there aren't many normal types in the world he inhabits to begin with.  I think Sonny would find a normal civilian relationship too mundane in reality, even though he thinks he might want it at times.  

Or they found him. How often do we actually see Sonny starting a relationship? Aside from Caitlin we typically join up somewhere in the middle. If the snippet we get in "Definitely Miami" is any clue, I'd say most of them managed to find him. Or at least lure him in.

Would Sonny really have issues with a normal relationship? I don't know that Sonny would have per se, but Burnett certainly would have. As I've mentioned before, that's why I think Caitlin was really his only solid chance during the whole show. She at least understood the performance side of things. But I don't think she understood how far Burnett had merged with Sonny, and I don't think he understood either until the break we see in the Burnett arc.

Sonny was in some ways like Vincent, but in other ways he was totally different. Vincent lived for the job and the bust, while Sonny lived more for the cover (at least until his break). After Burnett fell apart I think he was really lost and struggling to understand just how a cover identity could take over his life to such a great degree. Vincent was a driven hunter. He likely couldn't live without it. Sonny...well...Sonny was a player. Maybe he was on the side of the angels, but he was still a player. I don't think he was to start with, but the cover made him that way. I don't think he knew how to get out.

[mjcmmv]

4 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

He's a lot like Vincent in "Heat", marriage and being a cop doesn't work for some, I think Crockett cared more about his job than he did for having a relationship,  even with Caitlin there were moments where work got in the way and they argued because of it.

And his job was the major reason he and Caroline got a divorce! He wanted a stable relationship but wasn't willing to give up the job that made a stable relationship possible! 

Edited March 23, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

7 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Dr Drew would say Sonny seeked out chaotic personality types.  But then there aren't many normal types in the world he inhabits to begin with.  I think Sonny would find a normal civilian relationship too mundane in reality, even though he thinks he might want it at times.  

And yet, look how upset he was when he learned Caitlin was pregnant when she died. Another child in his life would have forced him to deal with the mistakes he made with Billy. If Caitlin had lived, I think he would have had to make a choice between "mundane" and stability. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Or they found him. How often do we actually see Sonny starting a relationship? Aside from Caitlin we typically join up somewhere in the middle. If the snippet we get in "Definitely Miami" is any clue, I'd say most of them managed to find him. Or at least lure him in.

Would Sonny really have issues with a normal relationship? I don't know that Sonny would have per se, but Burnett certainly would have. As I've mentioned before, that's why I think Caitlin was really his only solid chance during the whole show. She at least understood the performance side of things. But I don't think she understood how far Burnett had merged with Sonny, and I don't think he understood either until the break we see in the Burnett arc.

Sonny was in some ways like Vincent, but in other ways he was totally different. Vincent lived for the job and the bust, while Sonny lived more for the cover (at least until his break). After Burnett fell apart I think he was really lost and struggling to understand just how a cover identity could take over his life to such a great degree. Vincent was a driven hunter. He likely couldn't live without it. Sonny...well...Sonny was a player. Maybe he was on the side of the angels, but he was still a player. I don't think he was to start with, but the cover made him that way. I don't think he knew how to get out.

Wow, great analysis. I have to watch "Heat" again!

[Robbie C.]

16 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

And yet, look how upset he was when he learned Caitlin was pregnant when she died. Another child in his life would have forced him to deal with the mistakes he made with Billy. If Caitlin had lived, I think he would have had to make a choice between "mundane" and stability. 

Exactly. He wasn't ready for Brenda's mundane, but I do think Caitlin was exactly the blend of normal and cover he was looking for...a way to ease out of cover and make his way back to reality. Caitlin's life was in its own way almost as cover-oriented as his (the stage persona versus the real her...and she did talk about that and they played up the difference between the 'celebrity' and the real her quite a bit). There are so many parallels there it's striking. One could almost say he was also her last chance for something normal...something real...because he understood her sort of cover as well once he started to see it. Put all those things together and that's why I find the whole extended Caitlin-Hackman-Burnett arc so powerful. 

[mjcmmv]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

Exactly. He wasn't ready for Brenda's mundane, but I do think Caitlin was exactly the blend of normal and cover he was looking for...a way to ease out of cover and make his way back to reality. Caitlin's life was in its own way almost as cover-oriented as his (the stage persona versus the real her...and she did talk about that and they played up the difference between the 'celebrity' and the real her quite a bit). There are so many parallels there it's striking. One could almost say he was also her last chance for something normal...something real...because he understood her sort of cover as well once he started to see it. Put all those things together and that's why I find the whole extended Caitlin-Hackman-Burnett arc so powerful. 

I liked the Hackman-Burnett arc, too. There were a lot of themes running through those episodes but to be truthful, I never thought of the the idea that she had a "cover" as well. It's a great theory and could help to justify why the sparks flew for them so quickly.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by mjcmmv

[Bren10]

The elephant in the room with Sonny and Caitlyn is that that relationship had very little chance of working out in the first place.  Sonny knows this yet goes ahead anyway.  Both of them are also warned by those close to them but they still decide to try believing that determination will be enough.  But problems manifest immediately like in Rock and a Hard place.  They also don't take into account external factors like Hackman.  Caitlyn is yet one more example of Sonny not being able to choose a "normal" woman without chaos (in fairness that is part of the whole noir thing).  If one of them decided to give up their job to make it work, you still have the problem of having one waiting on the other which would get tiresome and boring, especially for Sonny.  Also part of Sonny's job is tied to a lifestyle that I don't think he'd want to ever give up entirely.  Just look how giddy he gets when he gets the new Ferrari.

In Vincent Hanna's case, and this comes from Mann, the elevated experience of his existence is the hunt. It is not from being a family man, husband, or father (he didn't have kids of his own). But he also has the drive to enforce justice and avenge victims. That's what the confrontation with the dead prostitute's mother is about, and that's what his recurring dream is about (which he confesses to Neil, who he declares he will kill to save an innocent if need be).  He finds Neil interesting and intriguing, possibly a kindred spirit and wasted potential so he gives him an out, which he knows Neil most likely will not take. The most important part of their conversation is when Vincent says "you do what you do-I do what I gotta do"  As in Neil has a choice.  Vincent feels he himself does not.  He must be on the hunt and he is compelled to enforce justice.

I think he and Sonny diverge in 1) Hanna is not an undercover but Sonny is and that presents a whole different set of issues, and 2) Hanna's marriages fail partly because domestic issues don't hold his interest but also because intimacy just doesn't have a place for one as single-minded and dedicated as him. Sonny seems to fail because so much of his social life is made up of the criminal world he inhabits.  It seems to have been that way so long now that something normal would not be exciting or engaging enough, yet at the same time he couldn't be available enough for a normal marriage because of the nature of his job.  Note his empathy with Artie Rollins and Vic Romano here. Contrast this with Tubbs who we actually do see at times with "civilian" women. 

In the end I think Sonny and Vincent both like the idea of being married/having a meaningful relationship but they lack the tools to maintain them and aren't actually willing to invest enough of themselves to make it work.

[mjcmmv]

23 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

The elephant in the room with Sonny and Caitlyn is that that relationship had very little chance of working out in the first place.  Sonny knows this yet goes ahead anyway.  Both of them are also warned by those close to them but they still decide to try believing that determination will be enough.  But problems manifest immediately like in Rock and a Hard place.  They also don't take into account external factors like Hackman.  Caitlyn is yet one more example of Sonny not being able to choose a "normal" woman without chaos (in fairness that is part of the whole noir thing).  If one of them decided to give up their job to make it work, you still have the problem of having one waiting on the other which would get tiresome and boring, especially for Sonny.  Also part of Sonny's job is tied to a lifestyle that I don't think he'd want to ever give up entirely.  Just look how giddy he gets when he gets the new Ferrari.

In Vincent Hanna's case, and this comes from Mann, the elevated experience of his existence is the hunt. It is not from being a family man, husband, or father (he didn't have kids of his own). But he also has the drive to enforce justice and avenge victims. That's what the confrontation with the dead prostitute's mother is about, and that's what his recurring dream is about (which he confesses to Neil, who he declares he will kill to save an innocent if need be).  He finds Neil interesting and intriguing, possibly a kindred spirit and wasted potential so he gives him an out, which he knows Neil most likely will not take. The most important part of their conversation is when Vincent says "you do what you do-I do what I gotta do"  As in Neil has a choice.  Vincent feels he himself does not.  He must be on the hunt and he is compelled to enforce justice.

I think he and Sonny diverge in 1) Hanna is not an undercover but Sonny is and that presents a whole different set of issues, and 2) Hanna's marriages fail partly because domestic issues don't hold his interest but also because intimacy just doesn't have a place for one as single-minded and dedicated as him. Sonny seems to fail because so much of his social life is made up of the criminal world he inhabits.  It seems to have been that way so long now that something normal would not be exciting or engaging enough, yet at the same time he couldn't be available enough for a normal marriage because of the nature of his job.  Note his empathy with Artie Rollins and Vic Romano here. Contrast this with Tubbs who we actually do see at times with "civilian" women. 

In the end I think Sonny and Vincent both like the idea of being married/having a meaningful relationship but they lack the tools to maintain them and aren't actually willing to invest enough of themselves to make it work.

They never had a chance. I like when you said that a normal life would not be exiting or engaging enough for Sonny.  That is so true. As Caroline told him in the first episode, "You get high on the action." And in "Rock and a Hard Place", when a disappointed Sonny confronts Caitlyn about her life style, she tells him that when you have success, you don't turn your back on the opportunity, so she would have definitely missed the limelight. You're right; their relationship was doomed from the beginning.

And he was so beaten down when she died. I often wondered if the writers considered a story line where Sonny contemplates suicide after Caitlyn is killed. Especially when he learned she was pregnant. I pictured Castillo telling Rico to make sure Sonny's gun was locked away for safe keeping. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by mjcmmv

[Bren10]

I don''t see Sonny going suicidal. Not after being so close to death in Bullet for Crockett.  Plus he still has Billy to live for, and I think he remembers the damage Orgel's suicide left behind as well as Evan.  Evan tells him "it's your turn now" to make a choice and I think Sonny chose life and to break the cycle.  I can however see Sonny externalizing grief and getting over-aggressive in the line of duty, as we have seen at times.

[vicegirl85]

Quote

It seems to have been that way so long now that something normal would not be exciting or engaging enough, yet at the same time he couldn't be available enough for a normal marriage because of the nature of his job.  Note his empathy with Artie Rollins and Vic Romano here.

Really enjoying reading your thoughts on Crockett and his relationships.  They explain so many things that he did during the series, and why he wasn't able to make a connection with "normal" women.  The whole "undercover life" thing becoming blurred with "real life" is something Sonny talked about and saw in other people throughout the series.  For me, he always seemed able to keep them separate until the Burnett arc--but as you say, there were a lot of perks that came with the cover life, and very irregular intervals of living real life (which became even more irregular after his divorce early in S1 of the show.  He feared, and on some level believed, that his real life could become subsumed by his cover life, as had happened to others. 

But it was always hard (for me) to see the Burnett cover as a really ruthless, dangerous character.  Although definitely giving the impression he was serious in his dealings with criminals, Burnett always seemed a bit more like a "good ol' boy" who skated on the wrong side of the law, rather than a ruthless enforcer for a major player.   

I think in the immediate aftermath of Caitlin's death, and right after learning that she was pregnant, Sonny didn't care whether he lived or died.  He felt guilt for her death at Hackman's hand. While I can't see him actively taking his own life with his gun, he could have died from alcohol poisoning and he understood and accepted that.  However, at some point soon afterward, he decided to live and avenge her death instead.  That was a fateful decision that set him up for amnesia after his head injury when the boat blew up, and allowed Burnett to truly take over. 

At that time I don't think that he was considering his son or his friends in making the decision to live.  Hopefully after the Burnett/amnesia episodes, his son and his friends would have taken up more space in his thoughts and decisions.

[Bren10]

I think Sonny extenalizes more than internalizes depression and grief. Especially in the long term.  No matter how bad a spell he's having, he always comes out the other side.  In other words, he would much rather attack and punish the source of his pain (as he did with Hackman or even Glantz) rather than hurt himself.  He has bouts of becoming distant and disconnected and may take bigger risks (like in Freefall) but those moments pass.  I don't believe he ever truly wanted to end his life.  As I said there were plenty of times where Rico or Castillo have had to hold Sonny back from violence because of how events were affecting him, but he never had to be held back from jumping off a bridge or crashing into a wall.  In Child's Play, as guilty as he felt he didn't turn it all on himself.  Instead he worked even harder to get to the bottom of the case.  I think that if the bomb that turned him into Burnett had not have gone off, he would've gone through another of these "cold spells" so to speak, but eventually the old Sonny would come back because grief is not forever anyway.  Not to mention that he did in fact punish Hackman in the end and he would have that small measure of satisfaction.

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, Bren10 said:

I think Sonny extenalizes more than internalizes depression and grief. Especially in the long term.  No matter how bad a spell he's having, he always comes out the other side.  In other words, he would much rather attack and punish the source of his pain (as he did with Hackman or even Glantz) rather than hurt himself.  He has bouts of becoming distant and disconnected and may take bigger risks (like in Freefall) but those moments pass.  I don't believe he ever truly wanted to end his life.  As I said there were plenty of times where Rico or Castillo have had to hold Sonny back from violence because of how events were affecting him, but he never had to be held back from jumping off a bridge or crashing into a wall.  In Child's Play, as guilty as he felt he didn't turn it all on himself.  Instead he worked even harder to get to the bottom of the case.  I think that if the bomb that turned him into Burnett had not have gone off, he would've gone through another of these "cold spells" so to speak, but eventually the old Sonny would come back because grief is not forever anyway.  Not to mention that he did in fact punish Hackman in the end and he would have that small measure of satisfaction.

This makes a lot of sense. I just thought because of so much tragedy in such a short amount of time, it might have been enough to erase his coping mechanisms and send him over the edge. I also think that although he got satisfaction from killing Hackman, his guilt for breaking his ethical code must have haunted him. Still, I have to remind myself he wasn't just killing Hackman because of Catie but also because Hackman killed his partner and used Sonny to get off death row. Wow, if any guy deserved it, Hackman did!!!

[mjcmmv]

20 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

I think Sonny extenalizes more than internalizes depression and grief. Especially in the long term.  No matter how bad a spell he's having, he always comes out the other side.  In other words, he would much rather attack and punish the source of his pain (as he did with Hackman or even Glantz) rather than hurt himself.  He has bouts of becoming distant and disconnected and may take bigger risks (like in Freefall) but those moments pass.  I don't believe he ever truly wanted to end his life.  As I said there were plenty of times where Rico or Castillo have had to hold Sonny back from violence because of how events were affecting him, but he never had to be held back from jumping off a bridge or crashing into a wall.  In Child's Play, as guilty as he felt he didn't turn it all on himself.  Instead he worked even harder to get to the bottom of the case.  I think that if the bomb that turned him into Burnett had not have gone off, he would've gone through another of these "cold spells" so to speak, but eventually the old Sonny would come back because grief is not forever anyway.  Not to mention that he did in fact punish Hackman in the end and he would have that small measure of satisfaction.

There is no doubt in my mind that Sonny became self-destructive toward the end of the series. You're right about Free Fall. He didn't really care if he went down in a blaze of glory as long as he took a few corrupt cops with him! 

Edited March 24, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said:

Really enjoying reading your thoughts on Crockett and his relationships.  They explain so many things that he did during the series, and why he wasn't able to make a connection with "normal" women.  The whole "undercover life" thing becoming blurred with "real life" is something Sonny talked about and saw in other people throughout the series.  For me, he always seemed able to keep them separate until the Burnett arc--but as you say, there were a lot of perks that came with the cover life, and very irregular intervals of living real life (which became even more irregular after his divorce early in S1 of the show.  He feared, and on some level believed, that his real life could become subsumed by his cover life, as had happened to others. 

But it was always hard (for me) to see the Burnett cover as a really ruthless, dangerous character.  Although definitely giving the impression he was serious in his dealings with criminals, Burnett always seemed a bit more like a "good ol' boy" who skated on the wrong side of the law, rather than a ruthless enforcer for a major player.   

I think in the immediate aftermath of Caitlin's death, and right after learning that she was pregnant, Sonny didn't care whether he lived or died.  He felt guilt for her death at Hackman's hand. While I can't see him actively taking his own life with his gun, he could have died from alcohol poisoning and he understood and accepted that.  However, at some point soon afterward, he decided to live and avenge her death instead.  That was a fateful decision that set him up for amnesia after his head injury when the boat blew up, and allowed Burnett to truly take over. 

At that time I don't think that he was considering his son or his friends in making the decision to live.  Hopefully after the Burnett/amnesia episodes, his son and his friends would have taken up more space in his thoughts and decisions.

The Burnett cover in the early years was definitely more light hearted and sarcastic, not ruthless. But after the bomb erased his memory, the evil Burnett took over and Sonny disappeared. It was hard to watch, because I loved Crockett so much. 

[Bren10]

And don't forget he also kills him for his unborn child.  That's the reason they're not "even" as Hackman suggests, not that that would matter anyway. But, if Hackman was in fact armed (which was a matter of BIG debate earlier, as you know, see my other posts) then Sonny can rationalize a level of self-defense in shooting him.  That's really thin, I know, but people justify their actions all sorts of ways.  

[mjcmmv]

9 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

And don't forget he also kills him for his unborn child.  That's the reason they're not "even" as Hackman suggests, not that that would matter anyway. But, if Hackman was in fact armed (which was a matter of BIG debate earlier, as you know, see my other posts) then Sonny can rationalize a level of self-defense in shooting him.  That's really thin, I know, but people justify their actions all sorts of ways.  

I remember being a part of that debate!!! I just couldn't accept that Crockett killed Hackman in cold blood! Of course, we grew up with the "pablum" diet of network TV shows and all the censorship that went with them. No way would the heroes of NBC, CBS or ABC deliberately kill someone who wasn't armed! BUT, I still remember seeing a gun in Hackman's hand, hidden under a magazine as the episode fades with Sonny walking off in the distance, so, I held onto that shred of evidence that he saw the gun and didn't hesitate to pull the trigger. Now, I can sleep at night!  

Edited March 24, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

2 hours ago, Bren10 said:

I don''t see Sonny going suicidal. Not after being so close to death in Bullet for Crockett.  Plus he still has Billy to live for, and I think he remembers the damage Orgel's suicide left behind as well as Evan.  Evan tells him "it's your turn now" to make a choice and I think Sonny chose life and to break the cycle.  I can however see Sonny externalizing grief and getting over-aggressive in the line of duty, as we have seen at times.

Lots of justification here-I forgot about Orgel, and of course, Billy really needs his father. Great arguments!

[Bren10]

I think the majority of the audience wanted Sonny to shoot Hackman anyway. If that was in a theater, the audience would've cheered.  I think the network was being a little paranoid/erring on the side of caution.  If you didn't want Hackman dead then the episode didn't do its job.