What would Sonny do??

[mjcmmv]

6 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

I think the majority of the audience wanted Sonny to shoot Hackman anyway. If that was in a theater, the audience would've cheered.  I think the network was being a little paranoid/erring on the side of caution.  If you didn't want Hackman dead then the episode didn't do its job.

Yes, so true! I read somewhere they added that gun in Hackman's hand to ward off the critics. It spoiled it for those who wanted a more realistic reaction form a man with a tortured soul!

I've grown up a lot since the early days of TV and now I have a lot more understanding and sympathy for the actions of "the tortured soul!!

Edited March 24, 2019 by mjcmmv

[Robbie C.]

The other elephant in the room is that Vincent actually had a unified, documented background where Crockett did not. If you go through the series piece by piece, pretty much every aspect of Crockett's background is contradicted or overwritten at some point, and he's the only major character this happens to. I stumbled across most of this when I was trying to project Crockett's Vietnam service, and it's really changed how I view the character. At this point, as I've mentioned, I'm not even sure Sonny is a character like Castillo or even Gina. He's more of a vehicle or tour guide. If it was one or two things out of place it wouldn't bother me, but just about every aspect of his background that's brought up in the series changes or is contradicted, sometimes in the same season.

[mjcmmv]

11 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

The other elephant in the room is that Vincent actually had a unified, documented background where Crockett did not. If you go through the series piece by piece, pretty much every aspect of Crockett's background is contradicted or overwritten at some point, and he's the only major character this happens to. I stumbled across most of this when I was trying to project Crockett's Vietnam service, and it's really changed how I view the character. At this point, as I've mentioned, I'm not even sure Sonny is a character like Castillo or even Gina. He's more of a vehicle or tour guide. If it was one or two things out of place it wouldn't bother me, but just about every aspect of his background that's brought up in the series changes or is contradicted, sometimes in the same season.

I'm surprised to hear you say this and it makes me wonder how my research into Sonny's military service didn't show these inconsistencies. I'll have to go back over your posts and piece this together! 

[Robbie C.]

Most of his inconsistencies are based on locations mentioned, and come from a handful of shows (his Vietnam time isn't discussed often in the series). My old post about Crockett's Vietnam record lines out what I found in brief, but I can go into more detail if anyone's interested. His football career is equally messy: in fact, none of it lines up with anything that happened in the '60s if you use the team he's supposed to have been on (University of Florida). And there are glitches in his Metro Dade service as well, starting with his claim to have done "ten years of undercover work" in S1's "Heart of Darkness." I got interested in Sonny's character background when I was doing the Vietnam stuff and it was amazing how much was off.

[Bren10]

Yes, go into more detail Robbie C

[vicegirl85]

Yes, I'd love to read more details, too.

The football stuff doesn't really bother me because although I know Crockett was said to have played for the Florida Gators (a real team at a real school), that kind of fictionalizing about the team record or players doesn't bother me,   Since Crockett himself is fictional, the team's record during the appropriate time period can also be fictional (for me).

I read your Vietnam posts and found them very interesting!  Although it seemed as if you were able to piece the bits together to make something that fit with the timeline, Crockett's age, the uniform details, etc.  Discrepancies within that history are more bothersome for me.  It doesn't all have to be real, but I'd like for it to make sense,

Yes, the early S1 statement of "10 years of undercover work" doesn't jive with the time that could have elapsed since Vietnam and then his time in the police academy and Robbery.  If he was in Vietnam in 1975 (as was shown in S2's Back in the World), only 9 years elapsed before the TV show started.  Not enough time for him to attend the academy, spend any time at all in Robbery, and then do 10 years of undercover work in Vice.  I don't think the show's producers, directors, and writers were too interested in consistency!

[mjcmmv]

7 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Most of his inconsistencies are based on locations mentioned, and come from a handful of shows (his Vietnam time isn't discussed often in the series). My old post about Crockett's Vietnam record lines out what I found in brief, but I can go into more detail if anyone's interested. His football career is equally messy: in fact, none of it lines up with anything that happened in the '60s if you use the team he's supposed to have been on (University of Florida). And there are glitches in his Metro Dade service as well, starting with his claim to have done "ten years of undercover work" in S1's "Heart of Darkness." I got interested in Sonny's character background when I was doing the Vietnam stuff and it was amazing how much was off.

Yes, I'm interested, so please go into more detail!

 

[Robbie C.]

Let me start with why I think this is important: Crockett is the ONLY character of the big three (Crockett, Tubbs, Castillo) who has this kind of problem. Castillo's background is at least as complex, and it remains consistent throughout the series. Tubbs has a fairly simple background, but again it remains stable.

That said, I talked about Sonny's Vietnam stuff here, and there's not a ton to add to it in wider details. The short version is Sonny's Vietnam service (two years or two tours, depending on the episode) pretty much means he has to have been a Marine. There are still location issues (the US didn't have a large presence in Pleiku at the times the show says Sonny would have been there), but I defer to a couple of consistent locations (Da Nang in particular, where Sonny and Robbie say they arrived in-country in Buddies) and the ribbon rack we see in "Back in the World." The lack of certain ribbons or badges, and the presence of one in particular, leads me to conclude Sonny was a Marine. I also find it interesting that we never know what Sonny actually did in Vietnam.

Sonny's Metro Dade time gets shaky starting with the "ten years undercover" statement in "Heart of Darkness." In "Evan" we're told he went more or less directly from the Academy to Vice, but then Robbery comes up later in the show. He's spent six years with Vice in the series opener (the quote about his time with Lou as his commander). He couldn't have ten years of undercover experience AND worked Robbery for a couple of years AND gone from the Academy to Vice. While I get the plot-driven logic of his "we were just kids" exchange with Tubbs during "Evan," does anyone really believe that a two-tour combat veteran would describe himself that way? He would have been older than Evan and Mike unless they were in the same situation he was (Sonny would be at least 26 when he entered the Academy with at least five years of military service to his credit) and would likely have seen a great deal more than they had.

His football stuff really fades into the background after the series premier (and has its own issues based on the pilot script alone). He couldn't have had a game-winning catch against Alabama because the University of Florida never beat Alabama during the time he would have been playing college ball. The closest he could have come was beating Auburn (another Alabama school), but the victories in those games never came from a pass (either a deep pass as implied in Tubbs' dialog or a screen pass as stated in a later episode). And then there's the mythical knee injury. It also vanished very quickly...never mentioned after (I believe) the second season.

The main reason the football stuff's important is it plays a role in how Sonny would have gone to Vietnam. Part of it is time-specific (an audience that grew up during Vietnam would assume Sonny had a deferment because he was playing ball in college), and part of it could speak to character motivation. His injury (if there really was one of any magnitude) would have allowed him to leave the team, which in turn would have allowed him to go to Vietnam.

I've got a rather massive essay kicking around somewhere that dissects all this in some detail (too much time on my hands, I guess), but those are the high points.

[mjcmmv]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

Let me start with why I think this is important: Crockett is the ONLY character of the big three (Crockett, Tubbs, Castillo) who has this kind of problem. Castillo's background is at least as complex, and it remains consistent throughout the series. Tubbs has a fairly simple background, but again it remains stable.

That said, I talked about Sonny's Vietnam stuff here, and there's not a ton to add to it in wider details. The short version is Sonny's Vietnam service (two years or two tours, depending on the episode) pretty much means he has to have been a Marine. There are still location issues (the US didn't have a large presence in Pleiku at the times the show says Sonny would have been there), but I defer to a couple of consistent locations (Da Nang in particular, where Sonny and Robbie say they arrived in-country in Buddies) and the ribbon rack we see in "Back in the World." The lack of certain ribbons or badges, and the presence of one in particular, leads me to conclude Sonny was a Marine. I also find it interesting that we never know what Sonny actually did in Vietnam.

Sonny's Metro Dade time gets shaky starting with the "ten years undercover" statement in "Heart of Darkness." In "Evan" we're told he went more or less directly from the Academy to Vice, but then Robbery comes up later in the show. He's spent six years with Vice in the series opener (the quote about his time with Lou as his commander). He couldn't have ten years of undercover experience AND worked Robbery for a couple of years AND gone from the Academy to Vice. While I get the plot-driven logic of his "we were just kids" exchange with Tubbs during "Evan," does anyone really believe that a two-tour combat veteran would describe himself that way? He would have been older than Evan and Mike unless they were in the same situation he was (Sonny would be at least 26 when he entered the Academy with at least five years of military service to his credit) and would likely have seen a great deal more than they had.

His football stuff really fades into the background after the series premier (and has its own issues based on the pilot script alone). He couldn't have had a game-winning catch against Alabama because the University of Florida never beat Alabama during the time he would have been playing college ball. The closest he could have come was beating Auburn (another Alabama school), but the victories in those games never came from a pass (either a deep pass as implied in Tubbs' dialog or a screen pass as stated in a later episode). And then there's the mythical knee injury. It also vanished very quickly...never mentioned after (I believe) the second season.

The main reason the football stuff's important is it plays a role in how Sonny would have gone to Vietnam. Part of it is time-specific (an audience that grew up during Vietnam would assume Sonny had a deferment because he was playing ball in college), and part of it could speak to character motivation. His injury (if there really was one of any magnitude) would have allowed him to leave the team, which in turn would have allowed him to go to Vietnam.

I've got a rather massive essay kicking around somewhere that dissects all this in some detail (too much time on my hands, I guess), but those are the high points.

Thanks, this is great! I guess the writers never dreamed the fans would be checking up so they just plugged in facts to suit the plot!  Little did they know!

[Robbie C.]

I also thought it was interesting that Sonny's the only one who really suffers this way.

[Bren10]

Please go ahead with the essay.  Maybe he's the one with these problems because different writers all wanted to have their input on the star of the show.

[Robbie C.]

41 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Please go ahead with the essay.  Maybe he's the one with these problems because different writers all wanted to have their input on the star of the show.

It could also have something to do with DJ's lack of interest in the character or inability to control the backstory. EJO by all accounts was very protective of Castillo and he's the most stable in terms of story.

Writers have the ability to garbage some things up, but the show runners SHOULD be looking at this stuff as well. The challenge is you start seeing some of Sonny's background issues as early as the first season, and certainly by the second (both when Mann was still firmly in control).

And the essay is 36 some pages. Most of it's Sonny's Vietnam time.

[Bren10]

We also have to remember the powers-that-be may not expect the casual audience to care about these things or even remember week to week. Just look at all the actors re-used for different roles!  This is especially true of episodic tv as opposed to serialized tv.  A lot of the time they consider their product to be consummable and disposable in terms of viewing.  Just as long as the ratings are good.  I guess you should give the essay its own thread?

Edited March 25, 2019 by Bren10

[Robbie C.]

But even with episodic TV the main characters tend to have consistent backgrounds. I think it's fairly well understood that audiences track these things, and have since the early days of radio. They recycle actors, true enough, but I can't think of a long-running episodic show where the main character's background changed as much as Sonny's did. They either didn't bring up background often (James West for example) or made it consistent throughout the show's run (Magnum is a good example). But even shows that didn't reference background often didn't change the basics. And Crockett stands out within his own show. That's the part I continue to find interesting. Part of it I suspect comes back to Mann viewing characters as vehicles or windows into whatever effect he's aiming for. Casting is always key for his stuff. Can you imagine Heat without Pacino and DeNiro basically playing themselves during the whole thing? On the flip of that, what makes MV2006 so forgettable is the poor (in my view) casting for the leads and Castillo. It might have had a chance with good casting, but once that ship sailed it was doomed.

[Bren10]

Heat was made without them as L.A. Takedown, and yes it is far inferior.  On the other hand, I am one of the (apparently) few supporters of MV2006 and I've posted a lot here defending it.  Is it possible Sonny's 10 years undercover was hyperbole? 

[Robbie C.]

I don't think so. He used it as a specific defense of Rollins. And under any possible timeline for his Metro Dade career he's looking at a max of maybe six years (eight if you assume he went directly undercover with Robbery, which doesn't seem likely).

I don't have any issues with the visuals or the music in 2006, and I did like the casting of Gina and Trudy. Where it missed the mark was the totally uninspired (as far as I'm concerned) casting of Crockett. Foxx didn't do horribly with Tubbs, but the gutting of Castillo was a shame. But that could also have been some residual baggage about EJO's role in shaping that character (which by all accounts was large).

[vicegirl85]

4 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

It could also have something to do with DJ's lack of interest in the character or inability to control the backstory. EJO by all accounts was very protective of Castillo and he's the most stable in terms of story.

Writers have the ability to garbage some things up, but the show runners SHOULD be looking at this stuff as well. The challenge is you start seeing some of Sonny's background issues as early as the first season, and certainly by the second (both when Mann was still firmly in control).(snipped)

 

I think DJ's inability to control Crockett's backstory was pretty key.  The show runners definitely didn't try to maintain a consistency, and if DJ had been given the control over his character that EJO was, it may have been able to make up for the lack from higher up.  Maybe not, but it's certainly an intriguing idea.

[Robbie C.]

I think EJO to an extent took control of his character because he realized no one else would. PMT may have done the same, since Tubbs remains pretty stable in terms of background. Crockett, though...

[vicegirl85]

If EJO is being truthful, Mann (or someone else high up in the MV food chain) really wanted him to come on board.  He used that want as a bargaining chip to gain control over Castillo's character and backstory.

Both DJ and PMT were more in the "struggling" category when they tried out for their parts.  I feel like they didn't have the power to dictate terms in their contracts (although DJ in particular later pressed successfully for more money as well as opportunities to direct episodes).

[Robbie C.]

I don't doubt EJO, but he's also a pretty focused guy. PMT seems the same way. I think he could "lean in" if a line didn't seem right or something got out of place.

[mjcmmv]

5 hours ago, Bren10 said:

We also have to remember the powers-that-be may not expect the casual audience to care about these things or even remember week to week. Just look at all the actors re-used for different roles!  This is especially true of episodic tv as opposed to serialized tv.  A lot of the time they consider their product to be consummable and disposable in terms of viewing.  Just as long as the ratings are good.  I guess you should give the essay its own thread?

Exactly! No one cared or was checking facts! Only diehard fans were paying attention!

[vicegirl85]

11 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I don't doubt EJO, but he's also a pretty focused guy. PMT seems the same way. I think he could "lean in" if a line didn't seem right or something got out of place.

I agree, but remembering back to when the show was actually filming, DJ had quite the reputation for wanting every scene to be just right.  Whether he had a narrow focus on his own character (I'd say no, based on his own statements) or on the whole scene/episode, he was certainly very involved--at least during the first 3 years.

I've never seen or read any interviews in which he spoke about his own interpretation of Crockett and Crockett's backstory, so I don't know what (if any) input he had into all of that.  Any statements he made about his character seemed to be more about how Sonny fit himself into the undercover life and how he (DJ) coped with Miami's climate by adjusting Crockett's wardrobe (eliminating socks, etc.)  I wouldn't say he wasn't interested, but especially if as you say, the writers and show runners were more into using Crockett to being a vehicle to portray some idea they were trying to work out--it would have been difficult to push for character consistency instead. 

[mjcmmv]

8 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Let me start with why I think this is important: Crockett is the ONLY character of the big three (Crockett, Tubbs, Castillo) who has this kind of problem. Castillo's background is at least as complex, and it remains consistent throughout the series. Tubbs has a fairly simple background, but again it remains stable.

That said, I talked about Sonny's Vietnam stuff here, and there's not a ton to add to it in wider details. The short version is Sonny's Vietnam service (two years or two tours, depending on the episode) pretty much means he has to have been a Marine. There are still location issues (the US didn't have a large presence in Pleiku at the times the show says Sonny would have been there), but I defer to a couple of consistent locations (Da Nang in particular, where Sonny and Robbie say they arrived in-country in Buddies) and the ribbon rack we see in "Back in the World." The lack of certain ribbons or badges, and the presence of one in particular, leads me to conclude Sonny was a Marine. I also find it interesting that we never know what Sonny actually did in Vietnam.

Sonny's Metro Dade time gets shaky starting with the "ten years undercover" statement in "Heart of Darkness." In "Evan" we're told he went more or less directly from the Academy to Vice, but then Robbery comes up later in the show. He's spent six years with Vice in the series opener (the quote about his time with Lou as his commander). He couldn't have ten years of undercover experience AND worked Robbery for a couple of years AND gone from the Academy to Vice. While I get the plot-driven logic of his "we were just kids" exchange with Tubbs during "Evan," does anyone really believe that a two-tour combat veteran would describe himself that way? He would have been older than Evan and Mike unless they were in the same situation he was (Sonny would be at least 26 when he entered the Academy with at least five years of military service to his credit) and would likely have seen a great deal more than they had.

His football stuff really fades into the background after the series premier (and has its own issues based on the pilot script alone). He couldn't have had a game-winning catch against Alabama because the University of Florida never beat Alabama during the time he would have been playing college ball. The closest he could have come was beating Auburn (another Alabama school), but the victories in those games never came from a pass (either a deep pass as implied in Tubbs' dialog or a screen pass as stated in a later episode). And then there's the mythical knee injury. It also vanished very quickly...never mentioned after (I believe) the second season.

The main reason the football stuff's important is it plays a role in how Sonny would have gone to Vietnam. Part of it is time-specific (an audience that grew up during Vietnam would assume Sonny had a deferment because he was playing ball in college), and part of it could speak to character motivation. His injury (if there really was one of any magnitude) would have allowed him to leave the team, which in turn would have allowed him to go to Vietnam.

I've got a rather massive essay kicking around somewhere that dissects all this in some detail (too much time on my hands, I guess), but those are the high points.

I agree that we never really knew what Crockett did in Viet Nam. I agree he was a Marine. But instead of an MP or Investigator , I see him more as part of a "sharp shooter" or sniper detail. Just watching him on that firing range convinced me of that from the beginning. Just a thought...

[Robbie C.]

I don't think he was a sniper. Never showed any long gun aptitude or interest, and when they dealt with snipers he always seemed out of his depth. I went with MP because of his pistol skills, and they're one of the few MOSs that focus on pistol marksmanship. As Bren10 pointed out with his unease in the woods, Sonny also didn't have the field skills of a sniper. And if he later did consulate security duty (during his second tour), Sonny would have been trained to be alert and improved his pistol skills even more.

[mjcmmv]

3 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I don't think he was a sniper. Never showed any long gun aptitude or interest, and when they dealt with snipers he always seemed out of his depth. I went with MP because of his pistol skills, and they're one of the few MOSs that focus on pistol marksmanship. As Bren10 pointed out with his unease in the woods, Sonny also didn't have the field skills of a sniper. And if he later did consulate security duty (during his second tour), Sonny would have been trained to be alert and improved his pistol skills even more.

This was an education. I know so little about guns, so thanks for your patience!