Writing Talk

[Robbie C.]

2 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

She was gutsy, no two ways about it. In fact, I always thought she was stronger than Gina. For me, Dutch Oven was the proof.  

So did I. Trudy always had serious backbone. You could count on her when things got tough. But there was always that other dimension to her as well. That's why I like writing for her. It's sort of a way to make up for the opportunities the series missed.

[mjcmmv]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

So did I. Trudy always had serious backbone. You could count on her when things got tough. But there was always that other dimension to her as well. That's why I like writing for her. It's sort of a way to make up for the opportunities the series missed.

I think we can do that for all the characters. The backgrounds were weak on all of them. They weren't even researched well. There were so many discrepancies as the series went on! Makes it tough when you're trying to write a story and you can't figure out what year they entered the military or even what year they were born!

Edited July 7, 2019 by mjcmmv

[summer84]

33 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I suspect also that, whether people want to admit it or not, the visual slant of Vice compared to other cop shows also played a role. When you're so focused on visuals it's easy to lose track of, or (intentionally or not) deemphasize, the characters.

I feel that sometimes the storylines suffered because of the visual focus and style. But at the same time it didn't work for me, when it was toned down too much either, because then it didn't feel like MV. Like it was in S3. It didn't have the same vibe and atmosphere. Worked best with those episodes where they managed to balance style and substance. And the one didn't prevail over the other. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by summer84

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, summer84 said:

I feel that sometimes the storylines suffered because of the visual focus and style. But at the same time it didn't work for me, when it was toned down too much either, because then it didn't feel like MV. Like it was in S3. It didn't have the the same vibe and atmosphere. Worked best with those episodes where they managed to balance style and substance. And the one didn't prevail over the other. 

I agree. When Season 3 came out, I was confused. Where were the care-free pastels and white linen jackets? The scenes were dark; the mood was dark. It took a long time before I could wrap my head around it and accept this was the same show!

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

You must really hate Jenny, then....

Honestly, I think more time passed in the Caitlin arc than we were ever shown. The same thing happened with Burnett. Look at the time gap between the S4 ender and the opening of S5. Time was never a solid concept in the Vice universe, so they could have been involved for months. We just don't know.

Oh no, I don't hate Jenny!  I don't know her too well yet, though

And I agree, no doubt more time passed (with Caitlin) than we were shown--and Burnett must have lasted longer than a couple of months.  But you know how when you just want two people to be together, you can't like one of them with someone else... 

Thanks for the welcome, and I truly do enjoy hearing others' take on the characters, even if it's not my take  

10 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

She [Trudy] was gutsy, no two ways about it. In fact, I always thought she was stronger than Gina. For me, Dutch Oven was the proof.  

I agree!  In spite of liking Gina and Sonny together, I felt that Gina was too liable to jump into the deep end.  She was passionate and dedicated to her work, but I feel like she let her emotions cloud her judgment and didn't retain professional objectivity when that might have saved her from certain things.  The passion was part of her attraction, but it was also an Achilles' heel, just as Sonny's susceptibility to women with a problem was an Achilles' heel for him.  Trudy was able to step back and make a difficult decision when it came to David.  I am not sure Gina would have been able to do the same before being placed in some kind of life or death dilemma.

[Robbie C.]

3 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

I agree. When Season 3 came out, I was confused. Where were the care-free pastels and white linen jackets? The scenes were dark; the mood was dark. It took a long time before I could wrap my head around it and accept this was the same show!

I didn't watch Vice in the original run (no cable in the dorms back in the dark ages, you know), so I got to see them out of sequence. In some ways I think that's good, because I could appreciate each season on its own merits without the preconceptions. I actually like season 3 and 4 quite a bit, because they were exploring some new territory and not necessarily trying to be a new music video every week. I've always been a writer out of inclination, and I appreciated the episodes when the visual didn't overwhelm the characters or the story. Which, I think, explains my strong preference for, and dislike of, some episodes.

 

9 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

I think we can do that for all the characters. The backgrounds were weak on all of them. They weren't even researched well. There were so many discrepancies as the series went on! Makes it tough when you're trying to write a story and you can't figures out what year they entered the military or even what year they were born!

And this is so true! But it also leads in a way to one of my other questions: do people prefer writing pre-, during, or post-series stories? For my part, even though I'm in the middle of a large (possibly insane) post-series arc, I don't  have a preference either way. To me all three are gaps that need filling and have ample space to grow. I've even toyed at some point with a Burnett story. Who knows?

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree!  In spite of liking Gina and Sonny together, I felt that Gina was too liable to jump into the deep end.  She was passionate and dedicated to her work, but I feel like she let her emotions cloud her judgment and didn't retain professional objectivity when that might have saved her from certain things.  The passion was part of her attraction, but it was also an Achilles' heel, just as Sonny's susceptibility to women with a problem was an Achilles' heel for him.  Trudy was able to step back and make a difficult decision when it came to David.  I am not sure Gina would have been able to do the same before being placed in some kind of life or death dilemma.

Excellent take!

[Robbie C.]

1 minute ago, vicegirl85 said:

[snip]I agree!  In spite of liking Gina and Sonny together, I felt that Gina was too liable to jump into the deep end.  She was passionate and dedicated to her work, but I feel like she let her emotions cloud her judgment and didn't retain professional objectivity when that might have saved her from certain things.  The passion was part of her attraction, but it was also an Achilles' heel, just as Sonny's susceptibility to women with a problem was an Achilles' heel for him.  Trudy was able to step back and make a difficult decision when it came to David.  I am not sure Gina would have been able to do the same before being placed in some kind of life or death dilemma.

I like that Trudy had a kind of controlled, very deep passion. When it came out, you knew it was there. But as you point out she could control it.

[vicegirl85]

I agree, there's plenty of space within the series run to fit in a story.  It would really be something of a challenge to do that while not changing the preceding or succeeding storylines within the show.  I can't really decide if I'd rather read something set before, during or after the show's run.  But to write, I think I'd rather start after the series ended.

[mjcmmv]

2 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I didn't watch Vice in the original run (no cable in the dorms back in the dark ages, you know),Acr

To be honest, I didn't really watch the show until it was in syndication. I had a friend that was caught up in the Burnett Arc and she got me hooked. And do I mean "hooked"!

[vicegirl85]

I watched it when originally broadcast except for S1--started watching either during S1 reruns in the summer or with the S2 opener, Prodigal Son.  I can't remember for sure now.  Some of the earlier episodes from S1 I didn't see until they were in syndication on the USA network, though.

And somehow I think I must have missed some of S5.  That was such a disappointing season for me, once the Burnett arc ended.  Everyone knew it was ending.  Some good episodes, and at this distance (and after reading some of the discussions here) I feel that Freefall was an inevitable end for the series, but I can't say I liked it.

[Robbie C.]

4 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree, there's plenty of space within the series run to fit in a story.  It would really be something of a challenge to do that while not changing the preceding or succeeding storylines within the show.  I can't really decide if I'd rather read something set before, during or after the show's run.  But to write, I think I'd rather start after the series ended.

I've done two so far set during the series, and it's not as hard as you might think. They leave so many things unanswered you can close off one thread (like Dalva) and not touch anything that comes after it. I like to go through and pick some 'what if' things and finish them off. That way you're not breaking the flow of the series.

[vicegirl85]

Especially if it's a shorter story, I agree.  I've done that in my writing fandom (intra-canon stories).

[Robbie C.]

14 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Especially if it's a shorter story, I agree.  I've done that in my writing fandom (intra-canon stories).

I think you could also spin a totally separate case out without breaking the main flow. I've got the Mendoza brothers floating around in mine as sort of a long-term back burner kind of thing. You hear those in passing in episode dialog in the squad room. Easy enough to spin a decent story (even a medium-sized one) out of those without interrupting the main flow at all. It's one instance where the episodic nature is doing us a favor. I'd hate to try to wedge one into either The Shield or Justified. They're too arc-driven and the characters are too complete. You could do prequels or postscripts, but it's really tough to try to fit something in the middle.

And I'll stop rambling now.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Robbie C.

[mjcmmv]

6 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I think you could also spin a totally separate case out without breaking the main flow. I've got the Mendoza brothers floating around in mine as sort of a long-term back burner kind of thing. You here those in passing in episode dialog in the squad room. Easy enough to spin a decent story (even a medium-sized one) out of those without interrupting the main flow at all. It's one instance where the episodic nature is doing us a favor. I'd hate to try to wedge one into either The Shield or Justified. They're too arc-driven and the characters are too complete. You could do prequels or postscripts, but it's really tough to try to fit something in the middle.

And I'll stop rambling now.

Love you're rambling! 

[vicegirl85]

Yes, I think your ideas are great!  And you're right--they would often throw out lines related to other cases that might be underway but weren't part of the episode's storyline.  So a great opportunity for a totally "other" story. 

[Robbie C.]

Just now, vicegirl85 said:

Yes, I think your ideas are great!  And you're right--they would often throw out lines related to other cases that might be underway but weren't part of the episode's storyline.  So a great opportunity for a totally "other" story. 

Thanks. And then you have the whole "what were Stan and Larry doing" angles when they weren't in an episode. Or Gina and Trudy. And that's just within the contained environment of the series itself. You could even ramp in some with Lou still alive from the early days. There's clearly a lapse of time between the end of the pilot and Heart of Darkness. Or the relationship Tubbs and Sonny have with the two detectives who are killed in Cool Runnin'. Lots of time there to fit things in and explore elements from the first days.

[vicegirl85]

I actually have 4 or 5 stories in progress in my primary fanfic writing (that is not MV), or else I would love to start writing and see what percolates up.  Will just have to mull for awhile and see right now, though.  Between now and December there are several other writing projects I need to concentrate on!

[Robbie C.]

Looking forward to it! I'm sure you've got some great plots just waiting to get out there.

You don't want to know how many I have in progress aside from Vice. It's a bad habit of mine. Both fiction and non-fiction. I have to juggle at least three or four different things or I just don't feel like I'm actually writing.

[mjcmmv]

46 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Thanks. And then you have the whole "what were Stan and Larry doing" angles when they weren't in an episode. Or Gina and Trudy. And that's just within the contained environment of the series itself. You could even ramp in some with Lou still alive from the early days. There's clearly a lapse of time between the end of the pilot and Heart of Darkness. Or the relationship Tubbs and Sonny have with the two detectives who are killed in Cool Runnin'. Lots of time there to fit things in and explore elements from the first days.

This is what I'm saying! There's so much material for stories before the show started! Love the "Lou" idea!

[mjcmmv]

44 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I actually have 4 or 5 stories in progress in my primary fanfic writing (that is not MV), or else I would love to start writing and see what percolates up.  Will just have to mull for awhile and see right now, though.  Between now and December there are several other writing projects I need to concentrate on!

YEA!!!!! Go for it!

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

YEA!!!!! Go for it!

I second that. Even little snippets don't hurt. A scene or two helps get the ideas flowing.

[Robbie C.]

So we went quiet again... Maybe I should shout sunglasses...

Anyhow, I tried a bit from Izzy's POV in Part VII of Echoes and found it interesting as hell. He's only tangentially involved in this one, so I couldn't work him in more, but it was a very interesting exercise. Just seeing how he might view Crockett and Tubbs and how he seems himself in the world of Miami. I'd try one from Noogie's POV, but he's currently in a stripper pole so his view would be limited and...shall we say...exotic... But if I mess with older plot lines at some point I might try one from these two guys' POVs exclusively. They worked together at least once (Missing Hours, and don't throw things because it's Trudy's episode even if it sucks), and might have done so other times we didn't see. I can already imagine a story where they're working with Stan and Larry (so obviously pre-Down for the Count) on some kind of sting or another. You could even fit one in while Lou was still alive, since Noogie first appears in Cool Runnin', and when we see Izzy it's as an established snitch so you can drop him in whenever you like.

I've worked with Tubbs more in Echoes, and something from his days in Armed Robbery in the Bronx is also kind of appealing. When he was in his young run and gun mode. Or Trudy when she first comes to Vice.

[mjcmmv]

2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

So we went quiet again... Maybe I should shout sunglasses...

Anyhow, I tried a bit from Izzy's POV in Part VII of Echoes and found it interesting as hell. He's only tangentially involved in this one, so I couldn't work him in more, but it was a very interesting exercise. Just seeing how he might view Crockett and Tubbs and how he seems himself in the world of Miami. I'd try one from Noogie's POV, but he's currently in a stripper pole so his view would be limited and...shall we say...exotic... But if I mess with older plot lines at some point I might try one from these two guys' POVs exclusively. They worked together at least once (Missing Hours, and don't throw things because it's Trudy's episode even if it sucks), and might have done so other times we didn't see. I can already imagine a story where they're working with Stan and Larry (so obviously pre-Down for the Count) on some kind of sting or another. You could even fit one in while Lou was still alive, since Noogie first appears in Cool Runnin', and when we see Izzy it's as an established snitch so you can drop him in whenever you like.

I've worked with Tubbs more in Echoes, and something from his days in Armed Robbery in the Bronx is also kind of appealing. When he was in his young run and gun mode. Or Trudy when she first comes to Vice.

Lots of potential here!

[Robbie C.]

22 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Lots of potential here!

That's kinda the point. If I babble enough it might give someone an idea. I don't write much for Gina, but there's all sorts of stuff waiting to be unearthed for her I'm sure. And even Lou for that matter. What about Sonny when he was with Malone? I find it interesting that both Sonny and Rico worked robbery after a fashion, maybe even at the same time. And what about his relationship with Rafael? So many goodies waiting to be unpacked.