Episode #21 "Evan"

[jpaul1]

Evan Freed the man that can't freed himself. there's a bit of Evan in all of us

[ViceFanMan]

47 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

Evan Freed the man that can't freed himself. there's a bit of Evan in all of us

True...guilt can be a destructive “prison” in itself. Pride, ego, fear, etc...can be reasons some choose not to deal with it. But the trick is to realize it, acknowledge it, why, and deal with it, so you can begin to move on. Very tragic, dark, but amazingly well-done episode!  

[jpaul1]

dealing with conscience is sometimes tricky. sometimes you find the way out, sometimes it's complicated not to say very complicated. this is why i hate that public bashing we see nowadays. there's no word to describe how dumb i find that behavior. people slaughter you in public, they don't know who you are, where you come from, if you're on a redemption curve, or not. they think they can play their little magistrate behind their screen. there's no word to describe how i despise that kind of behavior

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

dealing with conscience is sometimes tricky. sometimes you find the way out, sometimes it's complicated not to say very complicated. this is why i hate that public bashing we see nowadays. there's no word to describe how dumb i find that behavior. people slaughter you in public, they don't know who you are, where you come from, if you're on a redemption curve, or not. they think they can play their little magistrate behind their screen. there's no word to describe how i despise that kind of behavior

Well, the “public” (aka the media) is mostly exaggerations, twisting of stories, or flat out lies/fabrications. So, I wouldn’t put too much credence in any of that.  But, with personal relationships/friendships among people it’s best to try and help or support people that you know are struggling. We don’t always know what they’re going through or where they’ve come from/been to be causing or contributing to actions or thoughts. 

However, regardless of how complicated, difficult, or hurtful it might be...we can’t wallow in guilt (if you have or think you have done something bad) or self pity/poor me (if something bad has, or you think something bad has been done to you) forever. We can’t use whatever has happened as an excuse to act or say whatever we want, or not do/say what we don’t want to (but should). 

We’ve got to find a way/s to acknowledge whatever the issue is & deal with it. Continual destructive behavior or words are not “magically” justified just because we feel guilty or bad...especially if they continually hurt others around us. Evan sadly didn’t come to grips with this (or chose not to—I got the distinct impression that Sonny & others had tried to help him several times in the past, but he refused it) until it was too late. 

I feel bad for Evan...to an extent. Instead of dealing with & coming to grips with his guilt and self-hatred, he became “toxic” to everyone around him. This only makes things worse. I think Sonny & other cops that knew Evan would have forgiven him years before...they would’ve or did try to help him. But, he chose to forever wallow in his own guilt and self pity instead...and it sadly destroyed him. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by ViceFanMan

[Adrian321]

Deffinitely a good episode. Though................ not in my top 10. Sorry to the "Evan" fans that read this. While I give it a 10/10, I can't really say it is one of the best for me. I certainly like this more than "Out where the buses don't run", but............. it fails to deliver something, the beggining is a bit silly, and the ending seems forced. 

However, I really did like the music, the emotional tone and it brings almost all MV elements togheter.

From Season 1, I like "Brother's keeper" and "Smuggler's blues" more if you were wondering "Does this guy have any other S1 secret episode, HOW COULD HE DARE TO SAY EVAN IS NOT IN HIS TOP 10 !!!"

[wolfie1996]

I agree that "Evan" fits in perfectly with what we know about Sonny both before and after the episode. He's a complex man who has a strong sense of personal standards, including loyalty and honour (to use an old fashioned word.) He can't reconcile not living up to his own standards and we do feel that even with Evan's death, this has not been resolved and will continue to haunt him. Tubbs played a good part in urging him to have it out in the open  with Evan and only thus will this ghost be laid to rest. Sonny is obviously reluctant to do this and in the event, never gets the chance. It's an excellent episode in all ways, good exploration of character, plenty action and a good choice of music as it turned out though if you'd seen the titles on paper  before watching it, you maybe would have thought they were inappropriate. I could watch this every day- I think I know all the dialogue by now. I watched a clip of DJ talking on an English interview programme on ITV when he was asked what made MV such a success (this was in 1985 I think) and he said  apart from the MTV type presentation, many viewers felt an affinity with Sonny  and his "emotional bankruptcy". Perfectly true. If this came from DJ's own thoughts (and wasn't just something he'd been told to  say), he's an intelligent, articulate and perceptive man.

[Tom]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb wolfie1996:

I agree that "Evan" fits in perfectly with what we know about Sonny both before and after the episode. He's a complex man who has a strong sense of personal standards, including loyalty and honour (to use an old fashioned word.) He can't reconcile not living up to his own standards and we do feel that even with Evan's death, this has not been resolved and will continue to haunt him. Tubbs played a good part in urging him to have it out in the open  with Evan and only thus will this ghost be laid to rest. Sonny is obviously reluctant to do this and in the event, never gets the chance. It's an excellent episode in all ways, good exploration of character, plenty action and a good choice of music as it turned out though if you'd seen the titles on paper  before watching it, you maybe would have thought they were inappropriate. I could watch this every day- I think I know all the dialogue by now. I watched a clip of DJ talking on an English interview programme on ITV when he was asked what made MV such a success (this was in 1985 I think) and he said  apart from the MTV type presentation, many viewers felt an affinity with Sonny  and his "emotional bankruptcy". Perfectly true. If this came from DJ's own thoughts (and wasn't just something he'd been told to  say), he's an intelligent, articulate and perceptive man.

Well summarized! A few key episodes that show Crockett´s character best are "Milk Run", "Evan" and "Good collar" among many others. In all of these he starts out quite aggressive and partly also bullish as a tough cop against a suspect (or against Evan his old friend), but when he realizes that the person in question was either innocent or a victim of some sort himself, he was able to shift to a very compassionate and even friendly mode that sometimes even was "too good" and even dangerous for Crockett as an undercover cop - either because he felt too much and got emotionally too engaged or just because he did some implicit or explicit promises he could not deliver in the end (that´s the reason why he freaked out in the limo over the boy´s body in Good collar as he had promised him and his gradma a full free walk and the boy died after DA revoked and Crockett had to play along with the DA´s change in plans).

But this capability of Crockett to differentiate (be tough to real criminals and soft to innocent bystanders or just stupid boys) showed 1) that he was a very sophisticated and good character as opposed to many people who become cops just to execute power and cross the line too often as shown in the news every day and 2) in the end this good character move was a major deficiency of him to do his job. As Bianca put it on the boat in Freefall: "Your problem is rather that you feel too much....".

Bottom line: Crockett was the best type of guy (honest, compassionate, strong) society could select for this kind of responsible job, but at the same time this type of guy is exactly the one who will break some day. And the character-less type of guys who should not be on the force at all and just become police to bully others or shoot around will survive and not break as they can perfectly turn off when they get home (at least not until they are charged by the DA with murder like we see now quite often on the news or killed by some of their kind in revenge). That natural contradiction of good cops and bad cops is very true and MV was the only series who dealt with it and showed the consequences! 

And that´s one of the main reasons I love MV as a series. If you wash away all of this "cars, clothes and women" ads for the series, it had underneath more story and more heart than most of the other series. many critics just got stuck at the shiny surface and never tried to look under it.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Tom

[wolfie1996]

Not sure how to include your reply, Tom, but I hope you can see mine. I can only return the compliment regarding your own summary. Sonny combined toughness, courage and compassion to an extraordinary degree. Strong and brave but able (unlike many men) to show sensitivity and empathy. Nobody mentions the scene with Evan in the police conference room or whatever it was but how many could bring themselves to respond to Evan's distress  as Sonny did, albeit somewhat awkwardly, and not reject him with  embarrassment? The same in Milk Run, which is another of my favourites-the last scene of him sitting on the floor  after being unable to prevent Eddie's death is memorable and it was a good touch to have Tubbs just sit down beside him sympathetically. You're right , he feels too much and while this is why we the audience love and esteem him, it's his downfall in the end....he's too disillusioned to continue in the job, and you can see why. The hard, unfeeling numb types probably sail on unthinkingly (a bit like real life, as you say) and comfortably collect their pensions at the end of their service. There were many hints and indications that Sonny wouldn't do this. I know he's a fictional character (though very "real" to many of us) but I do wonder where he would have ended up. (Personally I'd like to have seen him discussing joining Tubbs as a PI in New York. Plenty action in that job but more control over your life and it would have meant they didn't split up. AND it could have been a spin off later if necessary.....) As it was, WE had to say goodbye to them too.

[Tom]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb wolfie1996:

Not sure how to include your reply, Tom, but I hope you can see mine. I can only return the compliment regarding your own summary. Sonny combined toughness, courage and compassion to an extraordinary degree. Strong and brave but able (unlike many men) to show sensitivity and empathy. Nobody mentions the scene with Evan in the police conference room or whatever it was but how many could bring themselves to respond to Evan's distress  as Sonny did, albeit somewhat awkwardly, and not reject him with  embarrassment? The same in Milk Run, which is another of my favourites-the last scene of him sitting on the floor  after being unable to prevent Eddie's death is memorable and it was a good touch to have Tubbs just sit down beside him sympathetically. You're right , he feels too much and while this is why we the audience love and esteem him, it's his downfall in the end....he's too disillusioned to continue in the job, and you can see why. The hard, unfeeling numb types probably sail on unthinkingly (a bit like real life, as you say) and comfortably collect their pensions at the end of their service. There were many hints and indications that Sonny wouldn't do this. I know he's a fictional character (though very "real" to many of us) but I do wonder where he would have ended up. (Personally I'd like to have seen him discussing joining Tubbs as a PI in New York. Plenty action in that job but more control over your life and it would have meant they didn't split up. AND it could have been a spin off later if necessary.....) As it was, WE had to say goodbye to them too.

Thanks!

And you just have to press on the "Quote" (or "citation"?, I am working with a German version here and therefore do not see the English naming convention of the button) button below the original post to include it in your reply (the one next to the "+" symbol that you can also use to quote more than one orginal post in your answer) . If you want to edit your post later, you have to find the "edit" button on the UPPER right side of the post (press the "..." button then three options pop up). This was originally also below the posts until recently but changed after a recent version upgrade.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Tom

[Robbie C.]

Yet one of the big contradictions is Sonny's non-reaction to the death of Larry Zito and the toll it took on Stan. I've mentioned before, and I think this is a good example of, his situational concern. Tubbs, who is usually considered the calmer of the two, is in my view far more passionate than Crockett. It took more to get him going, but if you look at episodes where Tubbs did get going (starting with the pilot, honestly), he's almost a force of nature. Crockett always had that Burnett calm and calculation living somewhere deep inside him, and as his situational concern became more and more strained, that side of him (or aspect of his personality) starting "stepping in" more and more to keep things going.

Evan for me is a good episode undermined by weaknesses in the background. The whole "we were just kids out of the academy" rings hollow for someone with two tours in Vietnam under his belt. Evan is a fascinating character, and his message of mixed redemption for Crockett at the end is something I've looped back to in my own fiction a number of times (and the show certainly could have to good effect). I just wish they would have handled the lead-in to all that better.

[wolfie1996]

I can't get the hang of this quoting a comment to reply to but this is for Robbie C. Good point regarding Crockett's Vietnam tours but maybe he meant this actual topic ( a friend coming out as gay) had not been  something he'd encountered. Rather different to facing physical dangers  etc and more calling for moral courage and even life experience. However, whatever you say about Tubbs feeling passionate about things, you don't see him physically embracing other men to comfort them, whereas Crockett seems to have no inhibitions in this  respect. As for Switek's problems, remember the hug Crockett gave him at the end of that  gambling  episode, when he assured a pretty distraught Switek that his friends in the department would be supporting him? Correct me if I'm wrong but Tubbs doesn't seem that type.

[Robbie C.]

13 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

I can't get the hang of this quoting a comment to reply to but this is for Robbie C. Good point regarding Crockett's Vietnam tours but maybe he meant this actual topic ( a friend coming out as gay) had not been  something he'd encountered. Rather different to facing physical dangers  etc and more calling for moral courage and even life experience. However, whatever you say about Tubbs feeling passionate about things, you don't see him physically embracing other men to comfort them, whereas Crockett seems to have no inhibitions in this  respect. As for Switek's problems, remember the hug Crockett gave him at the end of that  gambling  episode, when he assured a pretty distraught Switek that his friends in the department would be supporting him? Correct me if I'm wrong but Tubbs doesn't seem that type.

By passionate I meant emotionally driven, not necessarily physical passion. Sorry, I should have made that clear. And the part that still sticks with me was Crockett's comment about them being "kids out of the academy." He would have been at least 25 or 26 at that time, with two tours in Vietnam and the evacuation of Saigon under his belt, along with seeing friends die and likely encountering at least one who was gay (not uncommon at that time). The whole inexperienced, wide-eyed kid thing just didn't fly with me, at least with Crockett. I could buy it with Evan.

There are some great scenes in the episode, but the basic framework just doesn't sit right with me.

[vicegirl85]

Robbie, I've defended this aspect of the episode previously, but you definitely raise some valid questions. 

It feels like by the time Evan was filmed (and this was till during the first season, when the show used Crockett's Vietnam background several more time during its run) that the people in charge (whether Mann, writers, etc.) were totally ignoring or "forgetting" that past experience for the sake of presenting a highly emotion-driven episode.  Unless for some reason Crockett went into the Academy before he even went to Vietnam (which doesn't really jive with the initial "bio" we were given), it does stretch the limits of belief.  In the early to mid-70s, a lot of gay people were firmly in the closet, but it does seem that during 2 tours of military combat service, he would have encountered a few who were at least, highly suspect.  The almost claustrophobic environment would seem to have made such instances more likely to be found out.

MV wasn't into exploring backstory or providing the detail to make it "fit" within a particular time frame, that's for sure.

[Robbie C.]

2 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Robbie, I've defended this aspect of the episode previously, but you definitely raise some valid questions. 

It feels like by the time Evan was filmed (and this was till during the first season, when the show used Crockett's Vietnam background several more time during its run) that the people in charge (whether Mann, writers, etc.) were totally ignoring or "forgetting" that past experience for the sake of presenting a highly emotion-driven episode.  Unless for some reason Crockett went into the Academy before he even went to Vietnam (which doesn't really jive with the initial "bio" we were given), it does stretch the limits of belief.  In the early to mid-70s, a lot of gay people were firmly in the closet, but it does seem that during 2 tours of military combat service, he would have encountered a few who were at least, highly suspect.  The almost claustrophobic environment would seem to have made such instances more likely to be found out.

MV wasn't into exploring backstory or providing the detail to make it "fit" within a particular time frame, that's for sure.

Crockett was also a Marine, and would have served on Navy ships as well. Both are very close environments, making it even more likely he would have encountered at least one or two gay people (Crockett by my reckoning would have been a Marine for at least five years). I've always felt they just "forgot" that to drive an interesting story, which at least for me has the effect of breaking that story in some ways.

[Tom]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Robbie C.:

Yet one of the big contradictions is Sonny's non-reaction to the death of Larry Zito and the toll it took on Stan. I've mentioned before, and I think this is a good example of, his situational concern. Tubbs, who is usually considered the calmer of the two, is in my view far more passionate than Crockett.

That Crockett behaviour in Down for the count is in fact a bit odd compared to other compassionate Crockett reactions. But this more a writer´s problem. They should have kept character continuity and written a scene that showed that Crockett did in fact care about Zito and felt guilt on the operation that was also his idea after all. With these scenes and lines at hand, DJ had no chance to show something else than he did. And Tubbs never showed that much compassion about other males in the whole series at all, except for Crockett (yes for females, but not for males). I can´t remember any scene where he assisted others like Crockett did (hugging Stan, Castillo, talking at night to Zito....).

Sorry to say but Tubbs was shown by writers as a kind of James Bond. Womanizer but no real friends (except Felix Leiter=Crockett).

Edited March 14, 2021 by Tom

[Robbie C.]

My point wasn't about compassion with Tubbs. Passionate has different shadings in English, and when talking about him I meant emotionally-based drive. Look at him when he comes to Miami in the pilot. When he's going after Calderone any chance he gets.

As far as I'm concerned (and it's only related to Evan tangentially), one of the show's biggest failures was NOT showing Crockett having some remorse for Zito's death. It played a major role in my first Task Force novel, and crops up from time to time in the series-based stories I do.

[Tom]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Robbie C.:

As far as I'm concerned (and it's only related to Evan tangentially), one of the show's biggest failures was NOT showing Crockett having some remorse for Zito's death. It played a major role in my first Task Force novel, and crops up from time to time in the series-based stories I do.

Yes, but in all fairness they did not let Tubbs having remorse for Zito either .And Crockett did also not show remorse for the death of Tubbs´ family in Sons and lovers. And there was not much remorse for Lou Rodriguez either. Thus, I would not pinpoint that show´s failure specifically on Zito´s death, but rather on a general failure to have character and story continuity and to black out or introduce feelings of main characters at the wrong time. (e.g. Crockett wants to talk with Gina about his proposal to Caitlin up front after he practically "ignored" her feelings for him for 70+ episodes),

[wolfie1996]

I think there's some  confusion here about the use of the word "passion". I didn't mean any kind of sexual passion, obviously. I meant emotional connection and empathy, Robbie. And Tom, fully agree with your comments re Tubbs, who was indeed a womaniser and would no more have physically hugged another man than he would Elvis!

[Glades]

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

I can't get the hang of this quoting a comment to reply to

If you want to quote a text, you can mark it with the mouse, as if you want to copy and paste. When the text is marked, a box appears that says "Quote selection". When you click on it, you have quoted this text.

[wolfie1996]

1 minute ago, Glades said:

If you want to quote a text, you can mark it with the mouse, as if you want to copy and paste. When the text is marked, a box appears that says "Quote selection". When you click on it, you have quoted this text

Like this ? Thank you !!

[Glades]

18 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Like this ? Thank you !!

You are welcome!

[Glades]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Yet one of the big contradictions is Sonny's non-reaction to the death of Larry Zito

I see it in a different way. Crockett reacts very strongly to Zito's death and doesn´t forgive himself until the end (Leap of faith).
Only this isn´t told so much in a classical way. Not directly, via dialogue and plot ( chronologically).
It is told indirectly, through space, in the style of neo-noir.

What do I mean?
In S1 and 2, Crockett is very idealistic. But despite all his successes, he ultimately fails most of the time.
When people fail, they are often tempted to try harder, to control more: "The end justifies the means", a recurrent theme in MV.   In S3, Crockett controls more and more. Zito's death, and Moon's too, are "collateral damage" in Crockett's attempt to win at any cost.

When Zito dies, Crockett is desperate. His own life now seems worthless to him. In DFTC 2, he tells Tubbs, who urges Crockett to be careful:
Crockett: "I just don't give a damn. We're gonna stay on this sucker until we nail Guzman and clear Zito's name."
Tubbs: "We could crash and burn."
Crockett (unnaturally calm): "I don't give a damn about that either."
And in the chase later in the episode when Crockett turns around at the dead end, he drives head-on into the pursuing car with the comment:
"No guts, no glory"
He at least accepts his (senseless) accidental death before both cars steer to the side at the very last moment. The music to this is also very telling. To me, it almost seems like an attempted suicide.

This is definitely not how Crockett normally acts. Sure, he often takes big risks, but always realistic, with calm blood and not so desperate.

That's at least how these scenes work for me.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Glades

[wolfie1996]

22 minutes ago, Glades said:

When Zito dies, Crockett is desperate. His own life now seems worthless to him. In DFTC 2, he tells Tubbs, who urges Crockett to be careful:
Crockett: "I just don't give a damn. We're gonna stay on this sucker until we nail Guzman and clear Zito's name."
Tubbs: "We could crash and burn."
Crockett (unnaturally calm): "I don't give a damn about that either."
And in the chase later in the episode when Crockett turns around at the dead end, he drives head-on into the pursuing car with the comment:
"No guts, no glory"
He at least accepts his (senseless) accidental death before both cars steer to the side at the very last moment. The music to this is also very telling. To me, it almost seems like an attempted suicide.

Would Crockett have also risked  Tubbs' life though? I agree he was becoming more reckless about his own. I actually thought his attitude at the end of Freefall was pretty bleak too, as if he didn't really visualise a happier life elsewhere. And to be honest, it's hard to know what he would have done. He and Tubbs should have stayed together in some way (no, I don't mean as a couple, Robbie) instead of that understated parting.

[Robbie C.]

3 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

I think there's some  confusion here about the use of the word "passion". I didn't mean any kind of sexual passion, obviously. I meant emotional connection and empathy, Robbie. And Tom, fully agree with your comments re Tubbs, who was indeed a womaniser and would no more have physically hugged another man than he would Elvis!

I know, and I meant more strong emotional feeling and drive directed toward an objective. Rico was very self-contained...it was part of his character. That's why I wasn't concerned with him showing empathy, but rather how he focused on an objective and went for it with all he had. One could also argue he felt that way about Valerie, and Angelina to a degree.

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, Glades said:

I see it in a different way. Crockett reacts very strongly to Zito's death and doesn´t forgive himself until the end (Leap of faith).
Only this isn´t told so much in a classical way. Not directly, via dialogue and plot ( chronologically).
It is told indirectly, through space, in the style of neo-noir.

What do I mean?
In S1 and 2, Crockett is very idealistic. But despite all his successes, he ultimately fails most of the time.
When people fail, they are often tempted to try harder, to control more: "The end justifies the means", a recurrent theme in MV.   In S3, Crockett controls more and more. Zito's death, and Moon's too, are "collateral damage" in Crockett's attempt to win at any cost.

When Zito dies, Crockett is desperate. His own life now seems worthless to him. In DFTC 2, he tells Tubbs, who urges Crockett to be careful:
Crockett: "I just don't give a damn. We're gonna stay on this sucker until we nail Guzman and clear Zito's name."
Tubbs: "We could crash and burn."
Crockett (unnaturally calm): "I don't give a damn about that either."
And in the chase later in the episode when Crockett turns around at the dead end, he drives head-on into the pursuing car with the comment:
"No guts, no glory"
He at least accepts his (senseless) accidental death before both cars steer to the side at the very last moment. The music to this is also very telling. To me, it almost seems like an attempted suicide.

This is definitely not how Crockett normally acts. Sure, he often takes big risks, but always realistic, with calm blood and not so desperate.

That's at least how these scenes work for me.

 

I think that on the part of the powers that be was more of an unconscious nod back to Evan and how he acted. In the end it doesn't matter either way, really. I just feel the show could have made better use of that, and I know I did in my fiction.