Episode #21 "Evan"

[Jack Gretsky]

"Evan" has one of the greatest teasers.  I remember being floored the first time I saw this by the use of Peter Gabriel's "Rhythm of the Heat." Intelligent pop music and TV did not go together in those days, so this was stunning. (These days music, movies, TV, etc. all seemed to be pooped out by one monolithic entity, but in 1985 there was more of a frisson when one distinctive type of media met another.)  There's an additional great Gabriel track, "Biko." It's an especially cool moment when the chorus first kick in. 

Good episode, although somewhat overrated on this board.  It suffers from histrionics (Rusty is a favorite actor of mine, but he's responsible for a lot of this, even if it is part of the character of Evan) and melodrama, but happily has plenty of good virtues.  Some great nighttime atmosphere, such as when Crockett and Tubbs first enter the shipyard at the climax and, of course, that gas station conversation between them.  It's always nice when a TV show or movie takes the time for a quiet, atmospheric scene to enrich the story.  And a touching irony as Evan tries to redeem himself at the end by going out the way the bullied Orgel did. 

And is Gina still in a bad mood because of Sonny and Brenda?  She gets pretty huffy with Tubbs when he asks for some basic info! 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Jack Gretsky

[ViceFanMan]

29 minutes ago, Jack Gretsky said:

"Evan" has one of the greatest teasers.  I remember being floored the first time I saw this by the use of Peter Gabriel's "Rhythm of the Heat." Intelligent pop music and TV did not go together in those days, so this was stunning. (These days music, movies, TV, etc. all seemed to be pooped out by one monolithic entity, but in 1985 there was more of a frisson when one distinctive type of media met another.)  There's an additional great Gabriel track, "Biko." It's an especially cool moment when the chorus first kick in. 

Good episode, although somewhat overrated on this board.  It suffers from histrionics (Rusty is a favorite actor of mine, but he's responsible for a lot of this, even if it is part of the character of Evan) and melodrama, but happily has plenty of good virtues.  Some great nighttime atmosphere, such as when Crockett and Tubbs first enter the shipyard at the climax and, of course, that gas station conversation between them.  It's always nice when a TV show or movie takes the time for a quiet, atmospheric scene to enrich the story.  And a touching irony as Evan tries to redeem himself at the end by going out the way the bullied Orgel did. 

And is Gina still in a bad mood because of Sonny and Brenda.  She gets pretty huffy with Tubbs when he asks for some basic info! 

That’s what made MV so iconic at the time...no other show had used known, popular music in its episodes to create mood or bring a point across. Nowadays it’s done all the time...but whether people realize it or not, we have MV to thank!  

I agree, “Evan” is overrated...in my opinion much overrated. It’s a good and enjoyable melodrama episode...but not as ‘amazing’ as some feel.  The music and gas station scene (as you mentioned) were the truly enjoyable aspects. 

But, in my opinion the character of Evan was a whiny, miserable person who only wanted to bring everyone else down to wallow in his own misery with him. He continually felt sorry for himself, and instead of trying to “right” things as much as he could & then move on...he chose to play the poor-me game to the end. 

Even at the end, where he supposedly ‘redeemed’ himself, he still didn’t have to purposely get himself killed. He chose that, and it ultimately still caused Crockett sorrow and hurt. It didn’t “redeem” anything. I found the character of Evan pathetic, and even annoying. But, that’s just me...my opinion. 

[jpaul1]

it's very interesting to see that in the episode A bullet for Crockett, once in coma Crockett first thought goes to Evan. i translate it as something that was deeply troubling him

[wolfie1996]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

it's very interesting to see that in the episode A bullet for Crockett, once in coma Crockett first thought goes to Evan. i translate it as something that was deeply troubling him

I think it always did. You can't easily cast off these experiences, especially if they involve guilt and Crockett must've been very aware that his failure to forgive Evan had at least partly led to the tragedy of the finale. Evan's own sense of guilt initially led to him signing on for all the dangerous jobs to begin with but if Crockett had forgiven him when he asked him to (twice Evan tried to resolve the hostility between them, without success) it may have played out differently. But you can't force yourself to forgive someone if you don't feel it. This was one of a number of major tragedies and disillusionments in Crockett's life throughout the five series that led inevitably to his eventual resignation from the job.

[Tom]

I don’t agree that Evan is an overrated episode and I think it’s a quintessential episode in its own right and sphere within the series for the following reasons:

1. guts and mix of topics. Homosexuality was not well accepted in the early 80s (AIDS was deemed as god’s penalty for gay people) and hardly any TV shows touched the topic, let alone that cops or other „strong characters“  were shown as gay. How they weaved Personal drama, friendship, homosexuality, guilt and contraband here was superb and substance wise beyond most other episodes (Definitely Miami is overrated for my taste exactly for no substance).

2. the real unique clincher in this ep is not the Freed character (may be whiny, alright) but the new level of friendship achieved between Crockett&Tubbs. First the friendship is at stake because Crockett does not tell everything, then it gets even deeper, the nice girl gets the rain Check from Tubbs in favor of Crockett who opens completely up. That was the ultimate proof that Tubbs reached „blood brother“ level in Crockett’s eyes. After Evan Sonny and Rico were more than just partners, both having lost a „brother“ (Tubbs in the pilot, here it was Orgel and then Evan for Crockett) and both being on same level like real brothers (was not the case in some earlier episodes when Crockett felt a bit superior over the New York guy and told him so even if jokingly).
3. the history of the script. Rob Cohen accepted to direct but disliked the script around Cuban dealers and had the script completely rewritten 4 days ahead of filming. When William Russ showed up on set (his character was not planned before) he had the charismatic lead and DJ was annoyed what led to some tension like in One eyed Jack with EJO. But this new script and the resulting actor‘s tension drove the episode. The rest is history as they say.

4. This episode pushed many boundaries for early 1985 and is still ahead of time!. First NBC vendors cut out the domina scenes with Iggy Pop and the gay plot is still too much for most stations. Evan is not available on Amazon because the word „faggot“ is used (as a quote how Evan disparaged Orgel) several times. 

5. all the elements discussed before. Music, actors, locations and the script are just a unique Combination.

just my opinion….

Edited August 18, 2022 by Tom

[OCBman]

I completely agree with Tom. All the great music from Peter Gabriel and Jan Hammer and that amazing slow motion shot near the end give the episode that "wow" factor, but there is a lot of substance underneath all that eye and ear candy.

Also, when discussing Evan, I always like to throw in the "Here's Adventure, Here's Romance" episode from Hill Street Blues as a predecessor. In that episode, Det. Bradley is off-duty and happens to be the only witness to a mass shooting in a gay bar. He's reluctant to come forward, as he fears being outed. ((And by the way, Martin Ferrero plays a role in this episode!)) 

Crockett and Tubbs in slow motion (one of my favorite shots in the entire series):

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by OCBman

[wolfie1996]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:51 PM, Tom said:

I don’t agree that Evan is an overrated episode and I think it’s a quintessential episode in its own right and sphere within the series for the following reasons:

1. guts and mix of topics. Homosexuality was not well accepted in the early 80s (AIDS was deemed as god’s penalty for gay people) and hardly any TV shows touched the topic, let alone that cops or other „strong characters“  were shown as gay. How they weaved Personal drama, friendship, homosexuality, guilt and contraband here was superb and substance wise beyond most other episodes (Definitely Miami is overrated for my taste exactly for no substance).

2. the real unique clincher in this ep is not the Freed character (may be whiny, alright) but the new level of friendship achieved between Crockett&Tubbs. First the friendship is at stake because Crockett does not tell everything, then it gets even deeper, the nice girl gets the rain Check from Tubbs in favor of Crockett who opens completely up. That was the ultimate proof that Tubbs reached „blood brother“ level in Crockett’s eyes. After Evan Sonny and Rico were more than just partners, both having lost a „brother“ (Tubbs in the pilot, here it was Orgel and then Evan for Crockett) and both being on same level like real brothers (was not the case in some earlier episodes when Crockett felt a bit superior over the New York guy and told him so even if jokingly).
3. the history of the script. Rob Cohen accepted to direct but disliked the script around Cuban dealers and had the script completely rewritten 4 days ahead of filming. When William Russ showed up on set (his character was not planned before) he had the charismatic lead and DJ was annoyed what led to some tension like in One eyed Jack with EJO. But this new script and the resulting actor‘s tension drove the episode. The rest is history as they say.

4. This episode pushed many boundaries for early 1985 and is still ahead of time!. First NBC vendors cut out the domina scenes with Iggy Pop and the gay plot is still too much for most stations. Evan is not available on Amazon because the word „faggot“ is used (as a quote how Evan disparaged Orgel) several times. 

5. all the elements discussed before. Music, actors, locations and the script are just a unique Combination.

just my opinion….

Superb analysis, Tom!

[jpaul1]

what i think troubles Crockett is also that he doesn't know in which dimension he's guilty in the policeman suicide. And he doesn't know what to do. putting it all on Freed and minimizing his role. or forgiving, and helping Freed but suddenly finding himself with no emissary goat anymore, and having to face his acts. I always say all the series episodes are my favorite, but Evan is definitely an episode i enjoy hugely. about choices consequences, redemption, forgiveness, human psycology complexity, and tolerance. a very nice script

Edited August 21, 2022 by jpaul1

[wolfie1996]

22 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

what i think troubles Crockett is also that he doesn't know in which dimension he's guilty in the policeman suicide. And he doesn't know what to do. putting it all on Freed and minimizing his role. or forgiving, and helping Freed but suddenly finding himself with no emissary goat anymore, and having to face his acts. I always say all the series episodes are my favorite, but Evan is definitely an episode i enjoy hugely. about choices consequences, redemption, forgiveness, human psycology complexity, and tolerance. a very nice script

Excellent comments. Exactly right in every respect. It's why Evan is my favourite too, and I know lots feel the same though haven't articulated so well why it appeals so much despite the "action" taking second place to the psychological elements driving this story.

[Augusta]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:21 AM, ViceFanMan said:

That’s what made MV so iconic at the time...no other show had used known, popular music in its episodes to create mood or bring a point across. Nowadays it’s done all the time...but whether people realize it or not, we have MV to thank!  

I agree, “Evan” is overrated...in my opinion much overrated. It’s a good and enjoyable melodrama episode...but not as ‘amazing’ as some feel.  The music and gas station scene (as you mentioned) were the truly enjoyable aspects. 

But, in my opinion the character of Evan was a whiny, miserable person who only wanted to bring everyone else down to wallow in his own misery with him. He continually felt sorry for himself, and instead of trying to “right” things as much as he could & then move on...he chose to play the poor-me game to the end. 

Even at the end, where he supposedly ‘redeemed’ himself, he still didn’t have to purposely get himself killed. He chose that, and it ultimately still caused Crockett sorrow and hurt. It didn’t “redeem” anything. I found the character of Evan pathetic, and even annoying. But, that’s just me...my opinion. 

Bravo to those who rate Evan episode super-high, AND also Bravo to those who feel it gets too much high-rating.  The magic of Evan is in BOTH opinions.

I was really referring to another Vice episode when I wrote this, but the words apply well to this thread too:

"...You won't ever lose your audience if you give them a story like the Evan episode, or the Out Where the Buses episode.  No show was doing a story with the layered human intricacies that those two episodes had.  And you didn't even have to get too intricate, super-intellectual, or sociological with the subject in the episode---all you had to do was PRESENT the subject in the episode, and the audience would bring our own thoughts and feelings and personal baggage to the experience.  Evan had the matter of homosexuality and guilt written in it---and I don't think there was a single watcher who didn't (maybe only silently inside) bring some private experience of his own to mind, and feel that this episode was striking.  NO social debate or chit-chat necessary in the episode--just state the incident, say it hurt the characters, and the audience will define that "hurt" in any private way we want...."

Evan is not a big-deal episode.  It goes lightly on a taboo subject from the '80s, and creates characters, and questionable behaviors in Don's character, that are best when they are ambiguous and NOT fully explained with a lot of soul-searching and preachy absolution in the script.  Leave the topics sketchy (it was gutsy enough just to bring the subject up in your episode)---and the audience will take it from there, and bring all our own intellect and feelings to what we saw.  It's a good formula.

Imagine if 35% of all the episodes (especially the S-4 and S-5 episodes) were like Evan, simply put together to create a spark in the audience, and not needing to educate us on how we choose to handle that spark.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Augusta

[ViceFanMan]

13 hours ago, Augusta said:

Bravo to those who rate Evan episode super-high, AND also Bravo to those who feel it gets too much high-rating.  The magic of Evan is in BOTH opinions.

I was really referring to another Vice episode when I wrote this, but the words apply well to this thread too:

"...You won't ever lose your audience if you give them a story like the Evan episode, or the Out Where the Buses episode.  No show was doing a story with the layered human intricacies that those two episodes had.  And you didn't even have to get too intricate, super-intellectual, or sociological with the subject in the episode---all you had to do was PRESENT the subject in the episode, and the audience would bring our own thoughts and feelings and personal baggage to the experience.  Evan had the matter of homosexuality and guilt written in it---and I don't think there was a single watcher who didn't (maybe only silently inside) bring some private experience of his own to mind, and feel that this episode was striking.  NO social debate or chit-chat necessary in the episode--just state the incident, say it hurt the characters, and the audience will define that "hurt" in any private way we want...."

Evan is not a big-deal episode.  It goes lightly on a taboo subject from the '80s, and creates characters, and questionable behaviors in Don's character, that are best when they are ambiguous and NOT fully explained with a lot of soul-searching and preachy absolution in the script.  Leave the topics sketchy (it was gutsy enough just to bring the subject up in your episode)---and the audience will take it from there, and bring all our own intellect and feelings to what we saw.  It's a good formula.

Imagine if 35% of all the episodes (especially the S-4 and S-5 episodes) were like Evan, simply put together to create a spark in the audience, and not needing to educate us on how we choose to handle that spark.

I think the majority of MV fans like the episode “Evan”...it’s well written, it’s a good Season 1 episode, and a good emotional one for Crockett...dealing with a piece of his past. It also has some good visuals, with music, fashion, and “dark” MV mood. 

It also touched on a subject that back in the 80s most TV shows didn’t...but at the time MV was known for pushing the proverbial envelope, and trying to be more cutting-edge...with visuals, fashion, music, but also touching on known to be taboo topics. “Evan” wasn’t the only episode...there were others that also dealt with the gay thing, as well as ones dealing with incest, vigilantism, offering your child up for sex in exchange for drugs, etc... So, to me that’s not necessarily a captivating aspect specifically. 

Although it was a sad & troubling piece of Crockett’s past, I think he had more than moved on from when the Mike Orgel incident occurred. Although Crockett thought it might have been a suicide in a sense, Orgel was killed in the line of duty. I don’t think Crockett really blamed Evan for the death of Orgel...Evan blamed himself, and chose to never work through his guilt or get past it.

The character of Evan to me was sad & pathetic...as well as whiny.  He seemed to enjoy wallowing in his own self pity and misery, but wanted to bring everyone else down with him. That’s what made him toxic to be around , and that’s why Crockett no longer liked him or wanted to have anything to do with him.

To me Evan, both character & episode itself, was a tragedy...I think he already had Sonny’s forgiveness, but he chose to not get past the poor-me mentality & forgive himself. At the end, he did not have to get himself killed the way he did. He chose to do that, and ultimately I think it caused Crockett more pain and sadness.

 I like the episode, and it’s definitely a Season 1 highlight...but, with the show overall as a whole, yes I think it’s definitely overrated.  I think there’s many more episodes that are more “quintessential” MV. But, that’s just me. As to whether you do or don’t like an episode, and/or the aspects you do or don’t like about an episode—to each his or her own! 

Edited August 23, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Matt5]

On 8/22/2022 at 11:33 PM, ViceFanMan said:

I think the majority of MV fans like the episode “Evan”...it’s well written, it’s a good Season 1 episode, and a good emotional one for Crockett...dealing with a piece of his past. It also has some good visuals, with music, fashion, and “dark” MV mood. 

It also touched on a subject that back in the 80s most TV shows didn’t...but at the time MV was known for pushing the proverbial envelope, and trying to be more cutting-edge...with visuals, fashion, music, but also touching on known to be taboo topics. “Evan” wasn’t the only episode...there were others that also dealt with the gay thing, as well as ones dealing with incest, vigilantism, offering your child up for sex in exchange for drugs, etc... So, to me that’s not necessarily a captivating aspect specifically. 

Although it was a sad & troubling piece of Crockett’s past, I think he had more than moved on from when the Mike Orgel incident occurred. Although Crockett thought it might have been a suicide in a sense, Orgel was killed in the line of duty. I don’t think Crockett really blamed Evan for the death of Orgel...Evan blamed himself, and chose to never work through his guilt or get past it.

The character of Evan to me was sad & pathetic...as well as whiny.  He seemed to enjoy wallowing in his own self pity and misery, but wanted to bring everyone else down with him. That’s what made him toxic to be around , and that’s why Crockett no longer liked him or wanted to have anything to do with him.

To me Evan, both character & episode itself, was a tragedy...I think he already had Sonny’s forgiveness, but he chose to not get past the poor-me mentality & forgive himself. At the end, he did not have to get himself killed the way he did. He chose to do that, and ultimately I think it caused Crockett more pain and sadness.

 I like the episode, and it’s definitely a Season 1 highlight...but, with the show overall as a whole, yes I think it’s definitely overrated.  I think there’s many more episodes that are more “quintessential” MV. But, that’s just me. As to whether you do or don’t like an episode, and/or the aspects you do or don’t like about an episode—to each his or her own! 

Great post , highlighting many good views.

[wolfie1996]

On 8/22/2022 at 11:33 PM, ViceFanMan said:

I think the majority of MV fans like the episode “Evan”...it’s well written, it’s a good Season 1 episode, and a good emotional one for Crockett...dealing with a piece of his past. It also has some good visuals, with music, fashion, and “dark” MV mood. 

It also touched on a subject that back in the 80s most TV shows didn’t...but at the time MV was known for pushing the proverbial envelope, and trying to be more cutting-edge...with visuals, fashion, music, but also touching on known to be taboo topics. “Evan” wasn’t the only episode...there were others that also dealt with the gay thing, as well as ones dealing with incest, vigilantism, offering your child up for sex in exchange for drugs, etc... So, to me that’s not necessarily a captivating aspect specifically. 

Although it was a sad & troubling piece of Crockett’s past, I think he had more than moved on from when the Mike Orgel incident occurred. Although Crockett thought it might have been a suicide in a sense, Orgel was killed in the line of duty. I don’t think Crockett really blamed Evan for the death of Orgel...Evan blamed himself, and chose to never work through his guilt or get past it.

The character of Evan to me was sad & pathetic...as well as whiny.  He seemed to enjoy wallowing in his own self pity and misery, but wanted to bring everyone else down with him. That’s what made him toxic to be around , and that’s why Crockett no longer liked him or wanted to have anything to do with him.

To me Evan, both character & episode itself, was a tragedy...I think he already had Sonny’s forgiveness, but he chose to not get past the poor-me mentality & forgive himself. At the end, he did not have to get himself killed the way he did. He chose to do that, and ultimately I think it caused Crockett more pain and sadness.

 I like the episode, and it’s definitely a Season 1 highlight...but, with the show overall as a whole, yes I think it’s definitely overrated.  I think there’s many more episodes that are more “quintessential” MV. But, that’s just me. As to whether you do or don’t like an episode, and/or the aspects you do or don’t like about an episode—to each his or her own! 

Yes to each their own, VFM but I don't think you're right in several of your assertions. To begin with it was made abundantly clear that Crockett had NOT "moved on". Nor had he forgiven Evan for his treatment of Orgel. He could've said as much during that emotional scene in the meeting room- but he didn't. And when Tubbs said lay it to rest, it's been eating away at you....Crockett said "I can't." He didn't say, "I have done" did he? There was enormous tension between Crockett and Evan which, had Crockett left it all in the past or felt it was resolved, would not have existed, would it? This tension powers the whole episode towards its inevitable ending. Your description of Evan as sad, pathetic and whiny, wallowing in his own misery sadly says more about you than it does about the character. Fortunately it isn't shared by the majority of viewers, from what I've read. What's more it's ridiculous to dismiss Orgel's death as being killed in the line of duty. Unless "duty" prompts someone to walk right up to a robber armed with a shotgun. Crockett himself describes it as a suicide. And by the way, you don't sound like someone who "likes" the episode at all.

[ViceFanMan]

5 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Yes to each their own, VFM but I don't think you're right in several of your assertions. To begin with it was made abundantly clear that Crockett had NOT "moved on". Nor had he forgiven Evan for his treatment of Orgel. He could've said as much during that emotional scene in the meeting room- but he didn't. And when Tubbs said lay it to rest, it's been eating away at you....Crockett said "I can't." He didn't say, "I have done" did he? There was enormous tension between Crockett and Evan which, had Crockett left it all in the past or felt it was resolved, would not have existed, would it? This tension powers the whole episode towards its inevitable ending. Your description of Evan as sad, pathetic and whiny, wallowing in his own misery sadly says more about you than it does about the character. Fortunately it isn't shared by the majority of viewers, from what I've read. What's more it's ridiculous to dismiss Orgel's death as being killed in the line of duty. Unless "duty" prompts someone to walk right up to a robber armed with a shotgun. Crockett himself describes it as a suicide. And by the way, you don't sound like someone who "likes" the episode at all.

You are correct with one aspect...we all have our opinions. I stand by mine. I feel I am correct about who Evan was, and how he approached everyone & everything. It has nothing to do with who “I” am...it comes from what I “do” & working with people.

We don’t know exactly the circumstances of Orgel’s death, other than he tried to deal with a robber with a shotgun. Perhaps it was a “suicide” in a way...but I don’t think Crockett blames Evan for it. It was tragic & sad, and not a part of Crockett’s past he enjoyed.

But, I think Crockett had moved on in his life...he wasn’t trying to continually get himself killed, he didn’t have a death wish & want to make everyone else miserable around him. Evan is the one who chose to continually wallow in his own misery & self pity, rather than get help. He also chose to try and bring everyone else around him down with him. 

As for me being the only one who thinks this...not true. I definitely like the episode, and stand by everything I’ve said. I just don’t think it’s the most amazing nor quintessential episode that some do. I’m also definitely not the only one who thinks it’s sometimes overrated.

Again, most like it, including me...different people just have different views of it. Everyone has their opinions...if you think it’s the best episode ever, good for you!  

Edited August 26, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

Yes to each their own, VFM but I don't think you're right in several of your assertions. To begin with it was made abundantly clear that Crockett had NOT "moved on". Nor had he forgiven Evan for his treatment of Orgel. He could've said as much during that emotional scene in the meeting room- but he didn't. And when Tubbs said lay it to rest, it's been eating away at you....Crockett said "I can't." He didn't say, "I have done" did he? There was enormous tension between Crockett and Evan which, had Crockett left it all in the past or felt it was resolved, would not have existed, would it? This tension powers the whole episode towards its inevitable ending. Your description of Evan as sad, pathetic and whiny, wallowing in his own misery sadly says more about you than it does about the character. Fortunately it isn't shared by the majority of viewers, from what I've read. What's more it's ridiculous to dismiss Orgel's death as being killed in the line of duty. Unless "duty" prompts someone to walk right up to a robber armed with a shotgun. Crockett himself describes it as a suicide. And by the way, you don't sound like someone who "likes" the episode at all.

I agree with you about how they framed Crockett in this episode. He hadn't "moved on;" he was in a combination of denial and something else. Orgel based on what we're told (and I always found in interesting that this episode didn't use flashbacks of any kind) committed what might be called "suicide by perp." I don't think Crockett wallowed in his misery exactly, but he certainly staked out a strange kind of moral high ground when dealing with Evan. He also admitted at one point that he didn't "deal with it." I didn't find Evan whiney...I found him tragic in his own way. More someone who was consumed with guilt and trying to make amends in the only way he thought he could. And making amends was never Sonny's thing.

Where I disconnect from this episode is in how it totally ignores Crockett's background. As I've mentioned before, he wasn't just some "kid out of the academy"...he was a former Marine with two tours of Vietnam under his belt and probably older than either Evan or Orgel. It's a powerful episode in its way, but you have to forget who Crockett is in order to get into that side of it.

[ViceFanMan]

18 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Where I disconnect from this episode is in how it totally ignores Crockett's background. As I've mentioned before, he wasn't just some "kid out of the academy"...he was a former Marine with two tours of Vietnam under his belt and probably older than either Evan or Orgel. It's a powerful episode in its way, but you have to forget who Crockett is in order to get into that side of it.

Interesting points...I hadn’t really thought about this, with the military & age aspects, specifically with this episode before. This is true...Crockett would probably be older than either Orgel or Evan. But, I guess maybe he’d of been older than some of the other police academy trainees, coming in after his ‘Nam tours? Interesting thoughts! 

[Robbie C.]

11 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Interesting points...I hadn’t really thought about this, with the military & age aspects, specifically with this episode before. This is true...Crockett would probably be older than either Orgel or Evan. But, I guess maybe he’d of been older than some of the other police academy trainees, coming in after his ‘Nam tours? Interesting thoughts! 

He would have been at least 25 if you do the math...probably a touch older. He would have entered the academy in 1976 (to allow for him being in Saigon during the fall). I've mentioned this before, and it's the biggest weakness of this episode for me, at least.

I know the LAPD specifically tried to recruit veterans historically, but I have no idea if that pattern carried over to Metro Dade. Still...he would have had combat time (and possibly military law enforcement experience), along with a higher level of training than many of his fellow academy cadets. Orgel and Evan might have been "wide-eyed innocents," but Crockett certainly would not have been.

[wolfie1996]

8 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I agree with you about how they framed Crockett in this episode. He hadn't "moved on;" he was in a combination of denial and something else. Orgel based on what we're told (and I always found in interesting that this episode didn't use flashbacks of any kind) committed what might be called "suicide by perp." I don't think Crockett wallowed in his misery exactly, but he certainly staked out a strange kind of moral high ground when dealing with Evan. He also admitted at one point that he didn't "deal with it." I didn't find Evan whiney...I found him tragic in his own way. More someone who was consumed with guilt and trying to make amends in the only way he thought he could. And making amends was never Sonny's thing.

Where I disconnect from this episode is in how it totally ignores Crockett's background. As I've mentioned before, he wasn't just some "kid out of the academy"...he was a former Marine with two tours of Vietnam under his belt and probably older than either Evan or Orgel. It's a powerful episode in its way, but you have to forget who Crockett is in order to get into that side of it.

Your description of Evan as "tragic" is exactly right. He realised himself what his immature and stupid behaviour had done regarding "outing" Orgel and was indeed consumed with guilt- it's a terrible thing ,such realisation, when it's too late (certainly as far as Orgel was concerned) to redeem himself and he can only try to make things right with Crockett. As for Crockett- the other thing affecting him was self reproach because he'd lacked the necessary moral courage to stand up for his friend, and again it was too late to put things right. I don't know if anyone knows the book "The Master and Margarita" (a Russian classic) but- and you don't need to be religious to appreciate it - Jesus (or "Yeshua") and Satan do play big parts...and "Yeshua" states that the greatest sin, if I remember it right, is lack of moral courage. Pilate demonstrates this in condemning Yeshua though he knows he's innocent and the main character(the "Master") who's an author also does as he's afraid (with good cause) to print his "religious" story in atheist Soviet Russia. Pilate suffers the torment of self-reproach for 2,000 years till he's forgiven and the Master (and Margarita , his lover) go not to heaven after their deaths but to a kind of happy , eternal limbo. Sorry about the diversion! This book is both funny and powerful. You write some great comments, Robbie! Good point  about the experienced Crockett somehow being so naive! He wouldn't have been in reality.

[jpaul1]

[johnnyfarragut]

Evan deserves his own spin-off show. Complex, interesting character.

Crockett remains poker-faced, but you can tell he is scared out of his wits. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by johnnyfarragut

[wolfie1996]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:08 PM, johnnyfarragut said:

 

Evan deserves his own spin-off show. Complex, interesting character.

Crockett remains poker-faced, but you can tell he is scared out of his wits. 

Fully agree on your description of Evan. I'm a big Wiseguy fan and sometimes I wish MV had more story arcs like that series did.( I can only think of the  three "Burnett" eps.) I would love to have seen that story ("Evan") stretch over more episodes. Complex characters with ambivalent relationships are always the best and more interesting. William Russ had a similarly good part in Wiseguy in season 1 which fortunately extended over 11 or 12 episodes (the whole of Season  1 being some of the best TV I've ever watched.)

[ViceFanMan]

6 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Fully agree on your description of Evan. I'm a big Wiseguy fan and sometimes I wish MV had more story arcs like that series did.( I can only think of the  three "Burnett" eps.) I would love to have seen that story ("Evan") stretch over more episodes. Complex characters with ambivalent relationships are always the best and more interesting. William Russ had a similarly good part in Wiseguy in season 1 which fortunately extended over 11 or 12 episodes (the whole of Season  1 being some of the best TV I've ever watched.)

Wiseguy, the complete series (1987-1990: it was only on for 3 years & 75 episodes—but they made 4 “seasons” out of it) is available on DVD...I might check that out sometime!  

There was a reunion TV movie in 1996, and it’s available on a MOD-DVD from truetvmovies.net. That site specializes in hard to find or past TV movies of all kinds. The copies will most likely be original airings & not studio remastered HD quality...but the TV movies I have gotten from them in the past were still good quality, and well worth getting if you find something you remember or like—just FYI.

[wolfie1996]

On 12/29/2022 at 3:24 AM, ViceFanMan said:

Wiseguy, the complete series (1987-1990: it was only on for 3 years & 75 episodes—but they made 4 “seasons” out of it) is available on DVD...I might check that out sometime!  

There was a reunion TV movie in 1996, and it’s available on a MOD-DVD from truetvmovies.net. That site specializes in hard to find or past TV movies of all kinds. The copies will most likely be original airings & not studio remastered HD quality...but the TV movies I have gotten from them in the past were still good quality, and well worth getting if you find something you remember or like—just FYI.

Thanks VFM! Yes, I have the dvds, and I did manage to see the reunion film which was disappointing in that all the main characters seemed to have aged far more than the 5 or 6 years in between. I know Ken Wahl had that bad accident where he damaged his back falling on some marble stairs and consequently was less mobile and carried more weight than Vinnie did during the series (though he always had that propensity) but the other two seemed to have aged 15 years not 5. And furthermore, didn't seem to play major roles in the film either. I didn't find the plot that engaging  but at least it gave Vinnie a better ending than the abrupt disappearance after season 3. Best dvds are the ones where season 1 is in two halves so to speak, costs more but far better quality with interviews with most of the major characters and commentary on some episodes by Ken Wahl himself. AND notes from the story editors etc which I found really interesting. Luckily on a laptop you can play region 1 discs even though like me you live in region 2. I had one difficulty with one ep but I put the disc on my old laptop and it was OK.

Happy New Year, my friend!   

 

 

 

[ViceFanMan]

23 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Thanks VFM! Yes, I have the dvds, and I did manage to see the reunion film which was disappointing in that all the main characters seemed to have aged far more than the 5 or 6 years in between. I know Ken Wahl had that bad accident where he damaged his back falling on some marble stairs and consequently was less mobile and carried more weight than Vinnie did during the series (though he always had that propensity) but the other two seemed to have aged 15 years not 5. And furthermore, didn't seem to play major roles in the film either. I didn't find the plot that engaging  but at least it gave Vinnie a better ending than the abrupt disappearance after season 3. Best dvds are the ones where season 1 is in two halves so to speak, costs more but far better quality with interviews with most of the major characters and commentary on some episodes by Ken Wahl himself. AND notes from the story editors etc which I found really interesting. Luckily on a laptop you can play region 1 discs even though like me you live in region 2. I had one difficulty with one ep but I put the disc on my old laptop and it was OK.

Happy New Year, my friend!   

 

 

 

Interesting...sometimes reunion things are really good, other times disappointing. I’ve read that the original DVD sets were missing several episodes due to music rights, but the complete series set finally includes it all. I live in region 1, but I have a region free Blu-ray player...so I can watch DVDs & Blu-rays from any region. Totally worth getting. Happy New Year!

[Matt5]

Emotional piece and Jan Hammer’ s score was sublime. Great story telling and characters.

10\10