Episode #21 "Evan"

[wolfie1996]

23 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I know, and I meant more strong emotional feeling and drive directed toward an objective. Rico was very self-contained...it was part of his character. That's why I wasn't concerned with him showing empathy, but rather how he focused on an objective and went for it with all he had. One could also argue he felt that way about Valerie, and Angelina to a degree.

Ah yes..that's actually passion or rather two different faces of it. My own life has been full of such passionately pursued objectives. But it's quite a different thing to have empathy with the pain or suffering of another, and that's what Crockett had. And was all the better for it. Such a pity there are so few like that in real life. Nothing like a hug  when you're hurting, you know, and he was certainly good at that.

[Glades]

51 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I think that on the part of the powers that be was more of an unconscious nod back to Evan and how he acted. In the end it doesn't matter either way, really. I just feel the show could have made better use of that, and I know I did in my fiction.

A lot especially of the cross-episode plot of MV is told indirectly, through moods, visuals, colors, camera angles, small seemingly insignificant events, etc.
I react very strongly to this storytelling. That's something I really appreciate about MV.And I'm sure it didn't just happen unconsciously, it was done consciously.
 It works on the subconscious of the viewer, yes. Maybe one reason for that is that Michael Mann also worked in commercials as a young director following his studies in the UK. Advertising definitely works a lot with the subconscious.

I have the impression that for you the direct storytelling (dialogue and action, event by event) is much more important than for me. That's fine, of course. But because something is not or hardly told directly, it does not mean that it is not told at all and is not important.

I had read from you several times that Crockett represses his guilt about Zito's death. And thereupon paid a lot of attention to what I see on this subject. And for me, it's just different. Zito's death is a very big turning point in Crockett's life (and in the show). It's certainly no coincidence that CFTD is exactly the two middle episodes of the entire show, and also about halfway through S3.

But that actually belongs to DFTC or S3 discussion....

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Glades

[wolfie1996]

On 9/14/2017 at 12:17 AM, Mvice8489 said:

Evan is my FAVORITE episode.  Music was perfect!!

The bloody stuff is so unforgettable it's running round my head now! Yes a 10 from me too in case I haven't scored this already. Best episode of the whole 5  series.

[wolfie1996]

On 1/15/2019 at 11:25 PM, Dadrian said:

On 1/15/2019 at 10:46 PM, RedDragon86 said:

I know it was a few years since you mentioned this, but Sonny had obviously just came out of the shower.

That’s always been my assessment, since it was early in the morning. 

Yeah...and obviously still managed to look good, without the styled hair etc   DJ  was the  best looking he  ever was in that series.

[wolfie1996]

On 1/18/2019 at 3:39 PM, Robbie C. said:

Glad you liked my ramblings. MM was always into the symbolic when he did things, and so many elements of Evan contain symbolism it's hard to list them all. Redemption does play large in Evan on a number of levels.

So true, Robbie. You're an excellent  writer and very perceptive. And did you notice in the original script, when Evan dies, Sonny kisses him on the forehead. I'm not religious but could this  have been a sign of absolution?

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

So true, Robbie. You're an excellent  writer and very perceptive. And did you notice in the original script, when Evan dies, Sonny kisses him on the forehead. I'm not religious but could this  have been a sign of absolution?

Possibly. There is a certain symbolism there. At the very least it could be seen as forgiveness. 

[ViceFanMan]

The famous episode "Evan"...watched this one again. It’s one of the best of first season...I know many consider it to be the best of the whole series, however, I don't agree with that. It had a good plot, and I love the past storyline that explains the involvement of Sonny and Evan--and talk about a wild beginning!

We immediately get to experience the mental breakdown of Evan from the start--and I love the part at the beginning where he kisses the stomachs of the mannequins and says to them: "Miss me, girls?"  Totally whacked out!  I thought William Russ did a superb job of playing the disturbed Evan Freed and "made" the episode. Fashion, colors, and the music were really awesome, too.  

However, there’s just something...not-quite-there, or “missing”. I can’t exactly or fully explain it? I like the episode, I’m just not quite as fully enthralled with it as some are. I also have a little hard time “feeling” for Evan...and to be bluntly honest he was kind of a (figuratively speaking) whiny-butt. He became somewhat pathetic...it was all about poor-me, I feel guilty so boo-hoo & woe-is-me. 

Guilt can be a destructive “prison” in itself. Pride, ego, fear, etc...can be reasons some choose not to deal with it. But the trick is to realize it, acknowledge it, why, and deal with it, so you can begin to move on. Evan had years & many opportunities to try and deal with it, ask for forgiveness and/or support from Sonny & I’m sure other cops he knew, and try to get past it. Instead he chose to wallow in his own self pity & misery...then chose to self destruct & tried to bring everyone else down with him. 

But, very tragic, dark, but amazingly well-done episode!  Very neo-noir, with the “darkness” & tragedy of the plot & performances, and just the whole “feel” was noir.

Even though this isn't my all-time favorite first season episode, and I don't think it warrants being the actual best of the whole series, it is one of my favorites of Season 1. I originally gave it a 9, and I still stand by that! 

Edited April 8, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[wolfie1996]

3 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

The famous episode "Evan"...watched this one again. It’s one of the best of first season...I know many consider it to be the best of the whole series, however, I don't agree with that. It had a good plot, and I love the past storyline that explains the involvement of Sonny and Evan--and talk about a wild beginning!

We immediately get to experience the mental breakdown of Evan from the start--and I love the part at the beginning where he kisses the stomachs of the mannequins and says to them: "Miss me, girls?"  Totally whacked out!  I thought William Russ did a superb job of playing the disturbed Evan Freed and "made" the episode. Fashion, colors, and the music were really awesome, too.  

However, there’s just something...not-quite-there, or “missing”. I can’t exactly or fully explain it? I like the episode, I’m just not quite as fully enthralled with it as some are. I also have a little hard time “feeling” for Evan...and to be bluntly honest he was kind of a (figuratively speaking) whiny-butt. He became somewhat pathetic...it was all about poor-me, I feel guilty so boo-hoo & woe-is-me. 

Guilt can be a destructive “prison” in itself. Pride, ego, fear, etc...can be reasons some choose not to deal with it. But the trick is to realize it, acknowledge it, why, and deal with it, so you can begin to move on. Evan had years & many opportunities to try and deal with it, ask for forgiveness and/or support from Sonny & I’m sure other cops he knew, and try to get past it. Instead he chose to wallow in his own self pity & misery...then chose to self destruct & tried to bring everyone else down with him. 

But, very tragic, dark, but amazingly well-done episode!  Very neo-noir, with the “darkness” & tragedy of the plot & performances, and just the whole “feel” was noir.

Even though this isn't my all-time favorite first season episode, and I don't think it warrants being the actual best of the whole series, it is one of my favorites of Season 1. I originally gave it a 9, and I still stand by that! 

Now you might know, VFM, that I wouldn't be able to resist further comments on this one, seeing as I know by now every note of music and word of  dialogue of the whole episode and have strong opinions about it  I agree with all the complimentary things  you say but have to comment  further on it.  And it IS  only 7.40am but here goes! To start with , you are dismissive of his consuming feelings of self pity (as you put it) and guilt over an incident which happened years ago, implying it was high time he "snapped out of it" or sought help. Hmmm. Do you know how often that is said (uselessly) to someone who is still grieving over a death? And if the death was of someone the other person felt ambivalent feelings towards, it is far worse to get over. So start with that. Is he likely to discuss such a private and intimate subject with colleagues? I VERY much doubt it, especially as a man. Especially in the police force. Discuss it with Sonny? Well the inference was that that they'd never met since. And even if they had, it's a difficult topic to bring up out of the blue! So there's this quite volatile man realising, as he said himself, over the years that through inexperience and insensitivity he'd caused the death of a close friend. (And in doing so, alienated another.) It had obviously sent him off the rails, as was made clear, living recklessly etc. But being brought back into contact with Sonny again brought it all to the surface, obviously to an unbearable level, hence he had to  be drunk to try to have this "discussion". And he did try. An excellent scene too, and very moving I thought. However while Sonny didn't laugh at him or reject him at  all or shove him away in embarassment, he couldn't  say everything would be OK now that Evan had acknowledged his guilt  and remorse. Because you can't always, no matter how sincere the other person is. They say to be forgiven anything, you must be remorseful, but it doesn't follow that forgiveness will ensue. You think of something a friend did which however much you liked them, you couldn't get over, I don't know, ran off with your  wife, stole something when in a position of trust, didn't support you in a crisis...that sort of thing is so "wounding" that it leaves painful scars which don't heal. (I have personal experience of something like that, a very close friend who betrayed that friendship  so I know about it. This was  decades ago but I've never spoken to them since and I couldn't bring myself to even now. Nothing worse than betrayal.) Sonny has his own sense of guilt to contend with as well remember. As he said, he was my friend and I didn't stick up for him. So in that respect he was complicit in Orgell's  eventual suicide. He failed to live up to his own high standards. So he never could offer Evan that absolution, comfort, assurance, call it what you will, even though he wanted to. Because he couldn't forgive himself either. Tubbs as usual takes the pragmatic view, talk about it, resolve it within yourself etc but when Sonny says "I can't" he really means that  and is not just being unreasonable, temperamental, dramatising himself etc. He really can't. So even though (I think) he really cares about Evan , he can't even as Evan's dying, say it's OK (and doesn't, you notice). By the  way, he wasn't endangering the other two's lives, he was actually saving them! That was his act of redemption. That's what he meant when he said your turn next Sonny. Whoever wrote and directed this powerful episode should have had a gold medal I reckon. By the way, I think this episode demonstrates what the really important relationships are in Sonny's life and they aren't the sexual ones.

[RedDragon86]

10 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

The famous episode "Evan"...watched this one again. It’s one of the best of first season...I know many consider it to be the best of the whole series, however, I don't agree with that. It had a good plot, and I love the past storyline that explains the involvement of Sonny and Evan--and talk about a wild beginning!

We immediately get to experience the mental breakdown of Evan from the start--and I love the part at the beginning where he kisses the stomachs of the mannequins and says to them: "Miss me, girls?"  Totally whacked out!  I thought William Russ did a superb job of playing the disturbed Evan Freed and "made" the episode. Fashion, colors, and the music were really awesome, too.  

However, there’s just something...not-quite-there, or “missing”. I can’t exactly or fully explain it? I like the episode, I’m just not quite as fully enthralled with it as some are. I also have a little hard time “feeling” for Evan...and to be bluntly honest he was kind of a (figuratively speaking) whiny-butt. He became somewhat pathetic...it was all about poor-me, I feel guilty so boo-hoo & woe-is-me. 

Guilt can be a destructive “prison” in itself. Pride, ego, fear, etc...can be reasons some choose not to deal with it. But the trick is to realize it, acknowledge it, why, and deal with it, so you can begin to move on. Evan had years & many opportunities to try and deal with it, ask for forgiveness and/or support from Sonny & I’m sure other cops he knew, and try to get past it. Instead he chose to wallow in his own self pity & misery...then chose to self destruct & tried to bring everyone else down with him. 

But, very tragic, dark, but amazingly well-done episode!  Very neo-noir, with the “darkness” & tragedy of the plot & performances, and just the whole “feel” was noir.

Even though this isn't my all-time favorite first season episode, and I don't think it warrants being the actual best of the whole series, it is one of my favorites of Season 1. I originally gave it a 9, and I still stand by that! 

His guilt is strong though. I agree he does feel sorry for himself but at the same time he is really hurting inside to a point where he despises himself. 

 

 

[ViceFanMan]

6 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Now you might know, VFM, that I wouldn't be able to resist further comments on this one, seeing as I know by now every note of music and word of  dialogue of the whole episode and have strong opinions about it  I agree with all the complimentary things  you say but have to comment  further on it.  And it IS  only 7.40am but here goes! To start with , you are dismissive of his consuming feelings of self pity (as you put it) and guilt over an incident which happened years ago, implying it was high time he "snapped out of it" or sought help. Hmmm. Do you know how often that is said (uselessly) to someone who is still grieving over a death? And if the death was of someone the other person felt ambivalent feelings towards, it is far worse to get over. So start with that. Is he likely to discuss such a private and intimate subject with colleagues? I VERY much doubt it, especially as a man. Especially in the police force. Discuss it with Sonny? Well the inference was that that they'd never met since. And even if they had, it's a difficult topic to bring up out of the blue! So there's this quite volatile man realising, as he said himself, over the years that through inexperience and insensitivity he'd caused the death of a close friend. (And in doing so, alienated another.) It had obviously sent him off the rails, as was made clear, living recklessly etc. But being brought back into contact with Sonny again brought it all to the surface, obviously to an unbearable level, hence he had to  be drunk to try to have this "discussion". And he did try. An excellent scene too, and very moving I thought. However while Sonny didn't laugh at him or reject him at  all or shove him away in embarassment, he couldn't  say everything would be OK now that Evan had acknowledged his guilt  and remorse. Because you can't always, no matter how sincere the other person is. They say to be forgiven anything, you must be remorseful, but it doesn't follow that forgiveness will ensue. You think of something a friend did which however much you liked them, you couldn't get over, I don't know, ran off with your  wife, stole something when in a position of trust, didn't support you in a crisis...that sort of thing is so "wounding" that it leaves painful scars which don't heal. (I have personal experience of something like that, a very close friend who betrayed that friendship  so I know about it. This was  decades ago but I've never spoken to them since and I couldn't bring myself to even now. Nothing worse than betrayal.) Sonny has his own sense of guilt to contend with as well remember. As he said, he was my friend and I didn't stick up for him. So in that respect he was complicit in Orgell's  eventual suicide. He failed to live up to his own high standards. So he never could offer Evan that absolution, comfort, assurance, call it what you will, even though he wanted to. Because he couldn't forgive himself either. Tubbs as usual takes the pragmatic view, talk about it, resolve it within yourself etc but when Sonny says "I can't" he really means that  and is not just being unreasonable, temperamental, dramatising himself etc. He really can't. So even though (I think) he really cares about Evan , he can't even as Evan's dying, say it's OK (and doesn't, you notice). By the  way, he wasn't endangering the other two's lives, he was actually saving them! That was his act of redemption. That's what he meant when he said your turn next Sonny. Whoever wrote and directed this powerful episode should have had a gold medal I reckon. By the way, I think this episode demonstrates what the really important relationships are in Sonny's life and they aren't the sexual ones.

 

11 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

His guilt is strong though. I agree he does feel sorry for himself but at the same time he is really hurting inside to a point where he despises himself. 

 

 

I agree, his guilt was strong and he despised himself. I also know you can’t just snap out of it always...but that’s when you get help of some kind. You can’t wallow in your guilt & self pity forever...you can try but it’ll destroy not only you but everyone else around you too. That’s not okay or justified. Evan had people to turn to, including Sonny, and he had opportunities to get help.

But, he seemed to “like” to feel sorry for himself and wallow in his misery. Part of him maybe wanted to change or stop the hurt...but part of him seemed to get-off on the attention & self destruction. I think that’s why Sonny had ultimately cut the friendship off...because all Evan wanted to do was spread the misery and self destruction, and not ever do anything to get help or come to grips with himself. 

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

 

I agree, his guilt was strong and he despised himself. I also know you can’t just snap out of it always...but that’s when you get help of some kind. You can’t wallow in your guilt & self pity forever...you can try but it’ll destroy not only you but everyone else around you too. That’s not okay or justified. Evan had people to turn to, including Sonny, and he had opportunities to get help.

But, he seemed to “like” to feel sorry for himself and wallow in his misery. Part of him maybe wanted to change or stop the hurt...but part of him seemed to get-off on the attention & self destruction. I think that’s why Sonny had ultimately cut the friendship off...because all Evan wanted to do was spread the misery and self destruction, and not ever do anything to get help or come to grips with himself. 

I don't think you read anything I said, did you? Oh well, never mind.

[ViceFanMan]

Just now, wolfie1996 said:

I don't think you read anything I said, did you? Oh well, never mind.

I read part of it & skimmed it...but in all honesty it was really long! I’m working and am trying to read/post in between.   Whatever the case, though, you have to try and get help somewhere along the line. You can’t wallow in self destruction forever & expect others to want to follow. 

[wolfie1996]

7 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I read part of it & skimmed it...but in all honesty it was really long! I’m working and am trying to read/post in between.   Whatever the case, though, you have to try and get help somewhere along the line. You can’t wallow in self destruction forever & expect others to want to follow. 

Please read it all when you have time. I would appreciate it.

[Glades]

11 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

The famous episode "Evan"...watched this one again. It’s one of the best of first season...I know many consider it to be the best of the whole series, however, I don't agree with that. It had a good plot, and I love the past storyline that explains the involvement of Sonny and Evan--and talk about a wild beginning!

We immediately get to experience the mental breakdown of Evan from the start--and I love the part at the beginning where he kisses the stomachs of the mannequins and says to them: "Miss me, girls?"  Totally whacked out!  I thought William Russ did a superb job of playing the disturbed Evan Freed and "made" the episode. Fashion, colors, and the music were really awesome, too.  

However, there’s just something...not-quite-there, or “missing”. I can’t exactly or fully explain it? I like the episode, I’m just not quite as fully enthralled with it as some are. I also have a little hard time “feeling” for Evan...and to be bluntly honest he was kind of a (figuratively speaking) whiny-butt. He became somewhat pathetic...it was all about poor-me, I feel guilty so boo-hoo & woe-is-me. 

Guilt can be a destructive “prison” in itself. Pride, ego, fear, etc...can be reasons some choose not to deal with it. But the trick is to realize it, acknowledge it, why, and deal with it, so you can begin to move on. Evan had years & many opportunities to try and deal with it, ask for forgiveness and/or support from Sonny & I’m sure other cops he knew, and try to get past it. Instead he chose to wallow in his own self pity & misery...then chose to self destruct & tried to bring everyone else down with him. 

But, very tragic, dark, but amazingly well-done episode!  Very neo-noir, with the “darkness” & tragedy of the plot & performances, and just the whole “feel” was noir.

Even though this isn't my all-time favorite first season episode, and I don't think it warrants being the actual best of the whole series, it is one of my favorites of Season 1. I originally gave it a 9, and I still stand by that! 

 

7 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Now you might know, VFM, that I wouldn't be able to resist further comments on this one, seeing as I know by now every note of music and word of  dialogue of the whole episode and have strong opinions about it  I agree with all the complimentary things  you say but have to comment  further on it.  And it IS  only 7.40am but here goes! To start with , you are dismissive of his consuming feelings of self pity (as you put it) and guilt over an incident which happened years ago, implying it was high time he "snapped out of it" or sought help. Hmmm. Do you know how often that is said (uselessly) to someone who is still grieving over a death? And if the death was of someone the other person felt ambivalent feelings towards, it is far worse to get over. So start with that. Is he likely to discuss such a private and intimate subject with colleagues? I VERY much doubt it, especially as a man. Especially in the police force. Discuss it with Sonny? Well the inference was that that they'd never met since. And even if they had, it's a difficult topic to bring up out of the blue! So there's this quite volatile man realising, as he said himself, over the years that through inexperience and insensitivity he'd caused the death of a close friend. (And in doing so, alienated another.) It had obviously sent him off the rails, as was made clear, living recklessly etc. But being brought back into contact with Sonny again brought it all to the surface, obviously to an unbearable level, hence he had to  be drunk to try to have this "discussion". And he did try. An excellent scene too, and very moving I thought. However while Sonny didn't laugh at him or reject him at  all or shove him away in embarassment, he couldn't  say everything would be OK now that Evan had acknowledged his guilt  and remorse. Because you can't always, no matter how sincere the other person is. They say to be forgiven anything, you must be remorseful, but it doesn't follow that forgiveness will ensue. You think of something a friend did which however much you liked them, you couldn't get over, I don't know, ran off with your  wife, stole something when in a position of trust, didn't support you in a crisis...that sort of thing is so "wounding" that it leaves painful scars which don't heal. (I have personal experience of something like that, a very close friend who betrayed that friendship  so I know about it. This was  decades ago but I've never spoken to them since and I couldn't bring myself to even now. Nothing worse than betrayal.) Sonny has his own sense of guilt to contend with as well remember. As he said, he was my friend and I didn't stick up for him. So in that respect he was complicit in Orgell's  eventual suicide. He failed to live up to his own high standards. So he never could offer Evan that absolution, comfort, assurance, call it what you will, even though he wanted to. Because he couldn't forgive himself either. Tubbs as usual takes the pragmatic view, talk about it, resolve it within yourself etc but when Sonny says "I can't" he really means that  and is not just being unreasonable, temperamental, dramatising himself etc. He really can't. So even though (I think) he really cares about Evan , he can't even as Evan's dying, say it's OK (and doesn't, you notice). By the  way, he wasn't endangering the other two's lives, he was actually saving them! That was his act of redemption. That's what he meant when he said your turn next Sonny. Whoever wrote and directed this powerful episode should have had a gold medal I reckon. By the way, I think this episode demonstrates what the really important relationships are in Sonny's life and they aren't the sexual ones.

I read both of your Posts and found them very true and good and honest. Both! Thank you! I don´t see a big contradiction, more different angles.

Generally spoken, if you have a problem, you "should" at some time get active and seek help if you need it. Yes.
But. Such issues have their own timetable. And it can take VERY long time. And that´s o.k. It´s not possible to accelarate it. Maybe it´s never time.

[ViceFanMan]

7 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Now you might know, VFM, that I wouldn't be able to resist further comments on this one, seeing as I know by now every note of music and word of  dialogue of the whole episode and have strong opinions about it  I agree with all the complimentary things  you say but have to comment  further on it.  And it IS  only 7.40am but here goes! To start with , you are dismissive of his consuming feelings of self pity (as you put it) and guilt over an incident which happened years ago, implying it was high time he "snapped out of it" or sought help. Hmmm. Do you know how often that is said (uselessly) to someone who is still grieving over a death? And if the death was of someone the other person felt ambivalent feelings towards, it is far worse to get over. So start with that. Is he likely to discuss such a private and intimate subject with colleagues? I VERY much doubt it, especially as a man. Especially in the police force. Discuss it with Sonny? Well the inference was that that they'd never met since. And even if they had, it's a difficult topic to bring up out of the blue! So there's this quite volatile man realising, as he said himself, over the years that through inexperience and insensitivity he'd caused the death of a close friend. (And in doing so, alienated another.) It had obviously sent him off the rails, as was made clear, living recklessly etc. But being brought back into contact with Sonny again brought it all to the surface, obviously to an unbearable level, hence he had to  be drunk to try to have this "discussion". And he did try. An excellent scene too, and very moving I thought. However while Sonny didn't laugh at him or reject him at  all or shove him away in embarassment, he couldn't  say everything would be OK now that Evan had acknowledged his guilt  and remorse. Because you can't always, no matter how sincere the other person is. They say to be forgiven anything, you must be remorseful, but it doesn't follow that forgiveness will ensue. You think of something a friend did which however much you liked them, you couldn't get over, I don't know, ran off with your  wife, stole something when in a position of trust, didn't support you in a crisis...that sort of thing is so "wounding" that it leaves painful scars which don't heal. (I have personal experience of something like that, a very close friend who betrayed that friendship  so I know about it. This was  decades ago but I've never spoken to them since and I couldn't bring myself to even now. Nothing worse than betrayal.) Sonny has his own sense of guilt to contend with as well remember. As he said, he was my friend and I didn't stick up for him. So in that respect he was complicit in Orgell's  eventual suicide. He failed to live up to his own high standards. So he never could offer Evan that absolution, comfort, assurance, call it what you will, even though he wanted to. Because he couldn't forgive himself either. Tubbs as usual takes the pragmatic view, talk about it, resolve it within yourself etc but when Sonny says "I can't" he really means that  and is not just being unreasonable, temperamental, dramatising himself etc. He really can't. So even though (I think) he really cares about Evan , he can't even as Evan's dying, say it's OK (and doesn't, you notice). By the  way, he wasn't endangering the other two's lives, he was actually saving them! That was his act of redemption. That's what he meant when he said your turn next Sonny. Whoever wrote and directed this powerful episode should have had a gold medal I reckon. By the way, I think this episode demonstrates what the really important relationships are in Sonny's life and they aren't the sexual ones.

I had a chance to read through it. Very good thoughts! 

I agree that men lots of times find it very hard to open up and be able to talk about things...I know, I am one.  But, you’ve got to try and find someone. Maybe Sonny wouldn’t have listened, but I got the impression he would have if Evan had tried...Crockett just didn’t know how to deal with Evan’s original attitude towards Orgel. But, Evan became so self destructive that eventually he alienated everyone around him.

I think Crockett cared about Evan and would have still been friends if Evan hadn’t gone the non-stop death wish/self destruct route. But, when he realizes Evan isn’t going to try and change or get help, it just turned everything toxic. 

 I understand Evan’s guilt to an extent, as he didn’t get a chance to make things right with Orgel before he died...but he didn’t cause Mike Orgel’s death, nor did Sonny or anyone else—other than the robbers Orgel was trying to stop. Orgel chose to go into the situation without backup, and it cost him his life. 

But, Evan, Crockett, Mike, nor anyone involved with that situation back when didn’t run off with anyone’s wife, they didn’t steal money or screw each other over in any way. As I said I understand some guilt with Evan to an extent, as well as Crockett’s for not sticking up more for Mike...but neither caused his death. 

True, Evan used his own death at the end as an act of redemption, as he realized what Guzman was going to do...but ultimately I think this hurt Crockett even more! He didn’t have to say anything to Evan as he lay dying...they both knew Crockett still cared about him. But, I don’t think Evan “had” to make that choice. He could have warned C&T what was going to happen, and then tried to help take Guzman down, too...instead of causing more hurt & destruction by committing “suicide” himself with purposely charging Guzman. 

Even if Evan could not have turned to Crockett or other close friends for help when the guilt started “eating” away at his life...he needed to get help somewhere & somehow. Even if you think you can’t...somehow, someway you’ve got to try and figure something out. 

I totally understand lots of times you can’t just “snap” out of it, and it’s ok to grieve or even have some guilt for a while...but you have to try and get help somewhere along the line, if you can’t get past it. And the situation with Orgel wasn’t like last week, month, or year...it had been many years. 

If you choose to stay caught up in guilt, misery, self pity, and self destruction (and choose to not get help somewhere)...eventually it will destroy you, and others eventually will not have much to do with you...as they most likely don’t want to follow-suit, and they realize it’s always about “you”. 

This may sound harsh, but again...even if you have justified reasons to feel guilt or self-disgust, it’s not justified to wallow in that forever and never try to get help...as you will most likely bring others around you down as well (meaning feelings and friendships). 

Very well written & tragic episode...performances were awesome! Definitely a gem of Season 1!  

[wolfie1996]

57 minutes ago, Glades said:

 

I read both of your Posts and found them very true and good and honest. Both! Thank you! I don´t see a big contradiction, more different angles.

Generally spoken, if you have a problem, you "should" at some time get active and seek help if you need it. Yes.
But. Such issues have their own timetable. And it can take VERY long time. And that´s o.k. It´s not possible to accelarate it. Maybe it´s never time.

Thank YOU for your excellent response to this sensitive subject. Yes, VFM takes the Tubbs approach, get it out into the open/talk to "someone"-who? therapist? about it and it will resolve but I was trying to explain that as you so rightly said, not all things CAN be resolved, sadly. I honestly think that only Sonny telling him he was forgiven would have resolved this and for the reasons I laid out, I didn't think this would ever be possible. Some things go too deep. My heart bled for both of them to be honest. Even at the end, he  would have died happy had the words of forgiveness/absolution been said. But they were not. Thanks again for your understanding.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, wolfie1996 said:

Thank YOU for your excellent response to this sensitive subject. Yes, VFM takes the Tubbs approach, get it out into the open/talk to "someone"-who? therapist? about it and it will resolve but I was trying to explain that as you so rightly said, not all things CAN be resolved, sadly. I honestly think that only Sonny telling him he was forgiven would have resolved this and for the reasons I laid out, I didn't think this would ever be possible. Some things go too deep. My heart bled for both of them to be honest. Even at the end, he  would have died happy had the words of forgiveness/absolution been said. But they were not. Thanks again for your understanding.

I understand to an extent...but people choose to not resolve things...they choose not to acknowledge them, and deal with them. And those choices can & most likely will be very hurtful & destructive to those around you. 

I think Crockett would have forgiven Evan, if Evan had pursued that...at some point. Didn’t have to be immediately. But, instead Evan chose to continue in his self destruction and eventually Crockett had enough & moved on. 

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

 

I agree, his guilt was strong and he despised himself. I also know you can’t just snap out of it always...but that’s when you get help of some kind. You can’t wallow in your guilt & self pity forever...you can try but it’ll destroy not only you but everyone else around you too. That’s not okay or justified. Evan had people to turn to, including Sonny, and he had opportunities to get help.

Yes, help *is* out there.  Sometimes your job will even send you to see someone for this help.  But as others have said, you/ the person must be open to receiving that help, and must be able to forgive themselves.  Evan wasn't/ couldn't bring himself to that point, and that is what was destroying him.  Part of forgiving oneself would include making amends (when possible), and in this case, of course he could never make amends to Mike Orgell, so for him that was probably a major stumbling block.  I strongly hesitate to say it was self-pity or self-indulgence in holding onto this destructive guilt.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, vicegirl85 said:

Yes, help *is* out there.  Sometimes your job will even send you to see someone for this help.  But as others have said, you/ the person must be open to receiving that help, and must be able to forgive themselves.  Evan wasn't/ couldn't bring himself to that point, and that is what was destroying him.  Part of forgiving oneself would include making amends (when possible), and in this case, of course he could never make amends to Mike Orgell, so for him that was probably a major stumbling block.  I strongly hesitate to say it was self-pity or self-indulgence in holding onto this destructive guilt.

Totally agree...the person must be open to wanting & receiving the help. If the person refuses it or doesn’t want to pursue help, then the guilt, depression, anger, etc...will probably not go away. 

But, that doesn’t change the fact that this continual self destruction will eventually cause friends or even family to start distancing themselves from you, or it eventually alienates you from them all together...as you are choosing to not at least try and get help. It becomes all about “you” and your own self pity & destruction.

I do still say guilt & self pity, but I don’t know about self “indulgence”...maybe in a twisted way? But, like it or not life isn’t always only about “you”. Lots of times choices & decisions affect everyone around you. If you choose self destruction, don’t expect those around you to like it, support it, or follow suit themselves.

[wolfie1996]

19 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I had a chance to read through it. Very good thoughts! 

I agree that men lots of times find it very hard to open up and be able to talk about things...I know, I am one.  But, you’ve got to try and find someone. Maybe Sonny wouldn’t have listened, but I got the impression he would have if Evan had tried...Crockett just didn’t know how to deal with Evan’s original attitude towards Orgel. But, Evan became so self destructive that eventually he alienated everyone around him.

I think Crockett cared about Evan and would have still been friends if Evan hadn’t gone the non-stop death wish/self destruct route. But, when he realizes Evan isn’t going to try and change or get help, it just turned everything toxic. 

 I understand Evan’s guilt to an extent, as he didn’t get a chance to make things right with Orgel before he died...but he didn’t cause Mike Orgel’s death, nor did Sonny or anyone else—other than the robbers Orgel was trying to stop. Orgel chose to go into the situation without backup, and it cost him his life. 

But, Evan, Crockett, Mike, nor anyone involved with that situation back when didn’t run off with anyone’s wife, they didn’t steal money or screw each other over in any way. As I said I understand some guilt with Evan to an extent, as well as Crockett’s for not sticking up more for Mike...but neither caused his death. 

True, Evan used his own death at the end as an act of redemption, as he realized what Guzman was going to do...but ultimately I think this hurt Crockett even more! He didn’t have to say anything to Evan as he lay dying...they both knew Crockett still cared about him. But, I don’t think Evan “had” to make that choice. He could have warned C&T what was going to happen, and then tried to help take Guzman down, too...instead of causing more hurt & destruction by committing “suicide” himself with purposely charging Guzman. 

Even if Evan could not have turned to Crockett or other close friends for help when the guilt started “eating” away at his life...he needed to get help somewhere & somehow. Even if you think you can’t...somehow, someway you’ve got to try and figure something out. 

I totally understand lots of times you can’t just “snap” out of it, and it’s ok to grieve or even have some guilt for a while...but you have to try and get help somewhere along the line, if you can’t get past it. And the situation with Orgel wasn’t like last week, month, or year...it had been many years. 

If you choose to stay caught up in guilt, misery, self pity, and self destruction (and choose to not get help somewhere)...eventually it will destroy you, and others eventually will not have much to do with you...as they most likely don’t want to follow-suit, and they realize it’s always about “you”. 

This may sound harsh, but again...even if you have justified reasons to feel guilt or self-disgust, it’s not justified to wallow in that forever and never try to get help...as you will most likely bring others around you down as well (meaning feelings and friendships). 

Very well written & tragic episode...performances were awesome! Definitely a gem of Season 1!  

No I don't think Sonny saw much of Evan after the revelation that Orgel was gay, remember he put in for a transfer so Sonny wouldn't be directly aware of any self-destructive or toxic behaviour once he'd gone. He obviously never had any contact with him (Sonny) in the intervening period. So Sonny wouldn't be aware of how he was acting towards others. When they met up again during the Guzman operation all the under lying feelings came to the surface. Sonny's guilt and sense of betrayal, Evan's guilt and remorse. I thought it was  quite brave of Evan to nerve himself to approach Sonny the way he did- he must have been feeling desperate- and you could tell Sonny did  still have feelings for him (in the most manly way of course!) because he didn't push him away. But! he didn't say the essential words. Couldn't bring himself to, I think. You say it isn't like  running off with a wife or whatever but betrayal of a friendship is something Sonny feels very strongly about. I understand that because I do as well and would have been equally unforgiving. Some things you don't get over. No good  approaching others to talk about it, he wasn't interested in conventional therapy. This was very personal. By the way, if you remember Sonny only had the automatic  strapped to his ankle as the "police" had removed their weapons! So he might not have been able to save himself in time even if Evan had shouted a warning. Sometimes you don't "choose" a path, sometimes you have no option. Evan was predestined for a bad end  and I don't think either that Sonny would have ever got over his "wounds" enough to save him. You're right, tragedy is the true  description of this episode. (I've  written all this without r's and had to keep putting them in, bloody laptop!)

[ViceFanMan]

7 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

No I don't think Sonny saw much of Evan after the revelation that Orgel was gay, remember he put in for a transfer so Sonny wouldn't be directly aware of any self-destructive or toxic behaviour once he'd gone. He obviously never had any contact with him (Sonny) in the intervening period. So Sonny wouldn't be aware of how he was acting towards others. When they met up again during the Guzman operation all the under lying feelings came to the surface. Sonny's guilt and sense of betrayal, Evan's guilt and remorse. I thought it was  quite brave of Evan to nerve himself to approach Sonny the way he did- he must have been feeling desperate- and you could tell Sonny did  still have feelings for him (in the most manly way of course!) because he didn't push him away. But! he didn't say the essential words. Couldn't bring himself to, I think. You say it isn't like  running off with a wife or whatever but betrayal of a friendship is something Sonny feels very strongly about. I understand that because I do as well and would have been equally unforgiving. Some things you don't get over. No good  approaching others to talk about it, he wasn't interested in conventional therapy. This was very personal. By the way, if you remember Sonny only had the automatic  strapped to his ankle as the "police" had removed their weapons! So he might not have been able to save himself in time even if Evan had shouted a warning. Sometimes you don't "choose" a path, sometimes you have no option. Evan was predestined for a bad end  and I don't think either that Sonny would have ever got over his "wounds" enough to save him. You're right, tragedy is the true  description of this episode. (I've  written all this without r's and had to keep putting them in, bloody laptop!)

I think Sonny had some contact with Evan, following the incident with Orgell. That’s why he knew what Evan was like and was seriously uncomfortable with Evan all those years later with the Guzman operation. He knew the unstable self destructive mode Evan was in & had been in for years. Evan eventually transferred out, but that was part of the self destruction.

Crockett had the ankle gun at the end, and Evan knew that. He still could have done something to try and save C&T, with out purposely getting himself killed. This hurt Sonny even more...not made things right. They didn’t have to ultimately say words in that situation, they both knew they still cared about each other. 

[wolfie1996]

6 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I think Sonny had some contact with Evan, following the incident with Orgell. That’s why he knew what Evan was like and was seriously uncomfortable with Evan all those years later with the Guzman operation. He knew the unstable self destructive mode Evan was in & had been in for years. Evan eventually transferred out, but that was part of the self destruction.

Crockett had the ankle gun at the end, and Evan knew that. He still could have done something to try and save C&T, with out purposely getting himself killed. This hurt Sonny even more...not made things right. They didn’t have to ultimately say words in that situation, they both knew they still cared about each other. 

You could be right that he'd heard what Evan was like and he certainly wanted off the case. But DID Evan know about the ankle gun? He wasn't there during their preparations. It took Sonny a few  seconds to grab it and aim whereas Guzman had only to bring his own gun up and aim. Evan wouldn't have had one (removed by the police) so what else could he do? Sonny said "You didn't have to do this"- yes, Evan could've taken the chance that a warning would have been enough- I don't think it would have been. Sonny didn't say "I forgive you" because he didn't. Though they did  still care about each other. This  episode is hardly a typical Vice one yet I'd say it's the one that overall is rated the highest. So it has something else more powerful as an attraction.

[vicegirl85]

Definitely this episode can be seen as a cautionary tale of how guilt that is never dealt with can lead one down a path of self-desruction as well as driving away one's friends. 

Sonny had never really dealt with his guilt either, although he had managed to repress it so that it hadn't ruined his life.  Later, after Caitlin is killed by Hackman, guilt over his role in that episode of his life actually does cause destruction of his personality, in a sense.

[wolfie1996]

1 minute ago, vicegirl85 said:

Definitely this episode can be seen as a cautionary tale of how guilt that is never dealt with can lead one down a path of self-desruction as well as driving away one's friends. 

Sonny had never really dealt with his guilt either, although he had managed to repress it so that it hadn't ruined his life.  Later, after Caitlin is killed by Hackman, guilt over his role in that episode of his life actually does cause destruction of his personality, in a sense.

Vey good point re the role of guilt in Sonny's later episodes. It certainly had a major effect.

[ViceFanMan]

22 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

You could be right that he'd heard what Evan was like and he certainly wanted off the case. But DID Evan know about the ankle gun? He wasn't there during their preparations. It took Sonny a few  seconds to grab it and aim whereas Guzman had only to bring his own gun up and aim. Evan wouldn't have had one (removed by the police) so what else could he do? Sonny said "You didn't have to do this"- yes, Evan could've taken the chance that a warning would have been enough- I don't think it would have been. Sonny didn't say "I forgive you" because he didn't. Though they did  still care about each other. This  episode is hardly a typical Vice one yet I'd say it's the one that overall is rated the highest. So it has something else more powerful as an attraction.

Yes, Evan would have known about the ankle gun...he was a cop & had been for probably the same number of years Crockett had.

Evan was supposedly working for Guzman, so to me he should have had a gun too...but I guess they had to add the “tragic drama” for the episode. I do think Sonny forgave Evan as he was dying...even without words. I actually think Sonny forgave him and moved on long ago...but Evan refused to forgive himself, and chose destruction instead. So it eventually “toxified” their friendship.

Evan could have chosen a different way to try and bring Guzman down & help C&T without “suicide”. Even if he thought it was some kind of redemption...it ultimately still caused more pain & hurt. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by ViceFanMan