Episode #27 "Buddies"

[Robbie C.]

Fine. I can't see Annie being deep and understanding, either.

[RedDragon86]

21 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Fine. I can't see Annie being deep and understanding, either.

But she can relate to Dorothy as a woman.

Annie is a nice person so her female bonding comes naturally.

Edited September 5, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

It was already established that Noogie was an idiotic, loveable sort of guy in season 1.

Him being all deep and understanding towards Dorothy, sorry but I cannot see it.

 

 

14 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

But she can relate to Dorothy as a woman.

Annie is a nice person so her female bonding comes naturally.

Fully agree with this! Noogie was a spastic, moronic character that would not be able to pull off a more serious role that more solely focused on him. Small “amounts” of Noogie or Izzy were tolerable...preferably Izzy for me. But Charlie Barnett (Noogie) himself was too much like his character, and eventually got himself fired & banned from the show/set. So there’s no way he could have done a “major” role in this episode. Annie was definitely the right choice & better fitted for Dorothy. 

[Robbie C.]

13 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

But she can relate to Dorothy as a woman.

Annie is a nice person so her female bonding comes naturally.

Again, your take. I always found her shrill and far too much in the "gum-chomping chorus girl with a gold-plated heart" model. I think it would have been more interesting to see the writer's original intent...Noogie. Military didn't write him in on a whim.

[RedDragon86]

The acting and the writing in that scene with Sonny and Robbie alone was pure TV.

This is why Miami Vice is so misunderstood but great, when realized.

Edited April 15, 2022 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

41 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

The acting and the writing in that scene with Sonny and Robbie alone was pure TV.

This is why Miami Vice is so misunderstood but great, when realized.

It was good writing and TV, especially for the time! Sometimes, even when you learn of what possible ideas were “originally” looked at...you understand why they ultimately did what they did, such as with this episode. But, towards the end of the show, sometimes you ask yourself, why was this plot ever thought about to begin with! 

[Robbie C.]

19 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

The acting and the writing in that scene with Sonny and Robbie alone was pure TV.

This is why Miami Vice is so misunderstood but great, when realized.

If you look at the draft script, they lost a fair amount switching over to Anne instead of Noogie. But at the core it's about Sonny and Robbie...sort of an Evan with better background work. I think part of it's about Sonny not understanding quite what Robbie did to break from his family, or the consequences he might face for breaking from them again. The tie between him, Noogie, and Dorthy really gets lost when they switched it to Anne. This is also an episode that cried out for a follow-up of some kind that never happened.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Robbie C.

[Dadrian]

52 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

This is also an episode that cried out for a follow-up of some kind that never happened.

That’s where you come in! 

[RedDragon86]

I don't know why in the script it got down "me and I in our unit" when Sonny clearly says "My Lai" referencing the massacre in 68'

Frank Military's wrote some powerful stuff in that scene, about the POW's as well.

[Robbie C.]

39 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

I don't know why in the script it got down "me and I in our unit" when Sonny clearly says "My Lai" referencing the massacre in 68'

Frank Military's wrote some powerful stuff in that scene, about the POW's as well.

That's not the actual script. If you're seeing that it's likely one of those transcription sites that claims they're scripts. The script says My Lai.

[RedDragon86]

5 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

That's not the actual script. If you're seeing that it's likely one of those transcription sites that claims they're scripts. The script says My Lai.

Thank you Robbie.

[Robbie C.]

25 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

Thank you Robbie.

You're welcome. Those transcription sites are one of my pet peeves. If they'd just say they were transcribing it wouldn't bother me...but when they pass them off as scripts...

[ViceFanMan]

Watching this one again tonight...humor and deadly, superbly intertwined! But, even one of the usual goofs had to be “real” for a while...Annie was annoying (but she was supposed to be), however even she realized the importance of stepping up to help Dorothy & her baby. 

If the story that originally Noogie was to be the one to help Dorothy, but they ultimately changed it to Annie instead, is true...I think they made the right choice! Noogie was too spastic & moronic to stop & think about the seriousness of helping a young mother & her baby. Not that he wouldn’t have wanted to...but he wouldn’t have had a clue what to do!  

Pretending MV-world was real, even if they had decided to go with Noogie first...I think he would have turned to Annie for help/assistance pretty quick anyway. This gave a chance for the character of ‘Ample’ Annie Lamont to show she wasn’t a complete moron (like her husband )...she actually was intelligent to an extent, and cared about doing the right thing. 

This was a powerful & impactful episode, with awesome music, action, and performances by all! 

[Robbie C.]

It's not a story. It's in the actual draft script. And very few, if any, of the lines were changed between Noogie and Annie. Annie doesn't factor into Frank Military's original script at all (aside from a line explaining why she's gone).

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

It's not a story. It's in the actual draft script. And very few, if any, of the lines were changed between Noogie and Annie. Annie doesn't factor into Frank Military's original script at all (aside from a line explaining why she's gone).

Yeah, I’d read before that the original script had Noogie doing Annie’s role...and it sounds like not much was changed dialogue wise...even Annie just having the one line explaining that Noogie was gone, instead. 

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

Yeah, I’d read before that the original script had Noogie doing Annie’s role...and it sounds like not much was changed dialogue wise...even Annie just having the one line explaining that Noogie was gone, instead. 

The copy of the script I have is dated 25 July 1985 and is the second revision draft (the first date on the title sheet is 3 July, followed by 25 July). The episode started filming on 8 August according to the MV Wiki. Must have been a quick rewrite, since some of the dialog was originally done Noogie-style.

[ViceFanMan]

41 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

The copy of the script I have is dated 25 July 1985 and is the second revision draft (the first date on the title sheet is 3 July, followed by 25 July). The episode started filming on 8 August according to the MV Wiki. Must have been a quick rewrite, since some of the dialog was originally done Noogie-style.

Yeah, it sounds like it was a quick or last minute decision to put Annie in instead.  From what I’ve ever read, heard, and researched, Charlie Barnett, who played Noogie, was basically like his character in real life...from possible drug use. He eventually was fired & banned from the set. Later he sadly died of a drug overdose, I believe, in 1996. I’m wondering if he...“couldn’t”  do this episode & they had to plug in Annie instead? 

[RedDragon86]

22 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Yeah, it sounds like it was a quick or last minute decision to put Annie in instead.  From what I’ve ever read, heard, and researched, Charlie Barnett, who played Noogie, was basically like his character in real life...from possible drug use. He eventually was fired & banned from the set. Later he sadly died of a drug overdose, I believe, in 1996. I’m wondering if he...“couldn’t”  do this episode & they had to plug in Annie instead? 

I just can't even imagine one bit Noogie sitting and having a sensible conversation with Dorothy, telling her what she should do etc and that is how it would have played out. He couldn't be his usual clown self in this one.

It would have been SO out of character.

It's not a fact of course but I reckon Charlie would have ruined this great episode.

Where exactly was Noogie suppose to fit in this, he just so happens to be working in that mob nightclub? just can't see how it would work. Annie was the correct fit as girlfriends can confide in each other, plus the fast food truck was a nice addition as it opened up a reason for Annie drop the baby food at they end in front of Sonny.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

45 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

I just can't even imagine one bit Noogie sitting and having a sensible conversation with Dorothy, telling her what she should do etc and that is how it would have played out. He couldn't be his usual clown self in this one.

It would have been SO out of character.

It's not a fact of course but I reckon Charlie would have ruined this great episode.

Where exactly was Noogie suppose to fit in this, he just so happens to be working in that mob nightclub? just can't see how it would work. Annie was the correct fit as girlfriends can confide in each other, plus the fast food truck was a nice addition as it opened up a reason for Annie drop the baby food at they end in front of Sonny.

 

Completely agree! There is no way the character of Noogie would’ve been able to handle any kind of seriousness or care with Dorothy & the baby. I can’t imagine him being considered for that major & serious of a role for any episode?  

Unfortunately, Charlie was too much like his character of Noogie in real life, and (although this is not fact either) the impression I get is he wasn’t “able” to do the episode...so they used Annie instead. 

I’m glad they did, and in my opinion it should’ve been her to begin with! Her backstory of being in the club to try & get a singing gig, the food truck with her agent—including the baby food drop, the girl-talk & understanding, etc...just worked & fit perfectly! She had a much better balance of humor & seriousness, than Noogie anyway.  

Edited May 26, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

I just can't even imagine one bit Noogie sitting and having a sensible conversation with Dorothy, telling her what she should do etc and that is how it would have played out. He couldn't be his usual clown self in this one.

It would have been SO out of character.

It's not a fact of course but I reckon Charlie would have ruined this great episode.

Where exactly was Noogie suppose to fit in this, he just so happens to be working in that mob nightclub? just can't see how it would work. Annie was the correct fit as girlfriends can confide in each other, plus the fast food truck was a nice addition as it opened up a reason for Annie drop the baby food at they end in front of Sonny.

 

If you read the draft, it does work. Noogie was in the club trying to swing a gig for Annie (who he claims is out touring). Dorothy strikes a chord with him because she reminds him of Annie's sister who was in an abusive relationship. It's actually quite well-written and still keeps the Noog-man's distinct language in place.

But unlike some, I don't think Annie was a good fit at all. She was always shown as completely self-centered and out only for herself (which made her a perfect fit for Noogie, perhaps). For me she was always the weakest part of this episode, and I think that shift contributed to this side of the plot being weak. It's fine some feel differently, obviously, but if you look at the original narrative it's pretty clear where they cobbled stuff on and it breaks the flow.

[RedDragon86]

On 5/26/2022 at 11:18 PM, Robbie C. said:

If you read the draft, it does work. Noogie was in the club trying to swing a gig for Annie (who he claims is out touring). Dorothy strikes a chord with him because she reminds him of Annie's sister who was in an abusive relationship. It's actually quite well-written and still keeps the Noog-man's distinct language in place.

But unlike some, I don't think Annie was a good fit at all. She was always shown as completely self-centered and out only for herself (which made her a perfect fit for Noogie, perhaps). For me she was always the weakest part of this episode, and I think that shift contributed to this side of the plot being weak. It's fine some feel differently, obviously, but if you look at the original narrative it's pretty clear where they cobbled stuff on and it breaks the flow.

All due respect but I ain't buying it, Noogie is a joke for crying out loud. No matter what script they fabricate for him.

Edited May 28, 2022 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

Just now, RedDragon86 said:

All due respect but I ain't buying it, Noogie is a joke for crying out loud. No matter what script they fabricate for him, he is a joke.

That's fine. I don't think Annie works in this, but you're obviously entitled to your take on it. Noogie became a joke, maybe, but at this point in the series it wasn't a forgone conclusion. 

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

All due respect but I ain't buying it, Noogie is a joke for crying out loud. No matter what script they fabricate for him, he is a joke.

Everyone has their opinions and likes/dislikes with episodes and characters.   

But, I would have to agree with this. Even if they tried using dialogue or phrases Noogie would say in a script, the plot itself is WAY out of character for him! It would have come across strange & I don’t believe as smoothly as it did. 

Annie was goofy & annoying too (the woman married Noogie, for goodness sake, lol! )...but she also had a caring & serious side of her own, as well. She related to Dorothy & the baby as a female, and cared enough to stick up for & help Dorothy when needed.

Dialogue or no...Noogie the character, and I don’t think Charlie the actor, were capable of that. Noogie/Charlie was too spastic & flipping out all over the place. Small, short/quick moronic scenes were what sort of worked for him. But, he was just too annoying, rather than funny, to be able to go much further with the show...again, from what I understand he eventually was fired & banned from the show/set because he caused so much havoc when around. 

[RedDragon86]

I do like Noogie's character in a comical way, which we only see anyway he was great in "Cool Runnin" and in "Give a Little, Take a Little" he basically saved Gina with his info.

I can understand if it was written into Izzy's character because you can sense a serious side to him, there isn't one episode in season 1 to suggest that Noogie has any level of maturity or responsibility. Just because you write something so different into a character it doesn't mean that it's suited to his character and you have to accept it just because its written, that would be out of character. It's like if there was an episode where Castillo is laughing all the time and telling jokes.

 

 

[Robbie C.]

We will agree to disagree. The part was actually (in my view as a writer) very will-written. It kept Noogie's basic character, but had him connect with Dorothy based on his experiences with Annie's sister and her abusive relationship (and the way it's written you can see this surprises Noogie as well...forcing him to grow...Frank Military has always been good at this as a writer, honestly...consider Little Miss Dangerous). As for the whole connecting as a woman thing with Annie...I don't buy it. There was never anything in her character that suggested she'd really do anything for anyone but herself. But again, to each their own. You enjoyed her performance, I found it flat, trite, and unconvincing.