Episode #25 "Out Where The Buses Don't Run"

[jpaul1]

what i think is interesting in that episode is why Weldon which had done only one error in his life had turned mad. is it because what he has done, or the insane jail sentence that is waiting for him. death penalty? if not 200 years jail? in common cell, with several other guys you don't know nothing about?. i'm not starting a political debate here, i'm just discussing of the episode background. Weldon was obviously not a bad person, so what did he feared so much to make him become mad

Edited September 30, 2018 by jpm1

[Bren10]

I don't know that he went crazy out of fear.  Or if he was even really totally crazy.  Maybe some of that was his way of dealing with the guilt and remorse.  If he ever got caught, life as he knew it would be over.  That's hard to live with and that can make you paranoid.  Maybe there was fear in that respect.  I feel sorry for his partner Marty Lang.  Weldon's admission will punish his partner now too.  That's also a heavy thing to know that's coming.  Looking at Hank at the end staring into the night, I have a feeling a lot of that wackiness won't be there anymore.  He still won't be right in the head, but some of that silliness was to get C&T's attention and direct them on a course.  Even singing I Fought The Law was part of that manipulation.  I don't think Weldon's and Lang's sentences would be the harshest possible though, and I don't think they'd get the death penalty.  If you define insanity as not knowing the difference between right and wrong, then I would argue Weldon is not insane.  In fact, he is acting insane precisely because he DOES know the difference between right and wrong.  He knows he has been wrong all these years, and it's eating him up inside.  His coping mechanism has been his crazy behaviour  Once he "confesses" he gets a lot of that out of his system.  I can see him now becoming depressed or even catatonic after this is over.  If you've ever seen KPAX, I can see him being like Kevin Spacey at the end of that.

[ViceFanMan]

9 hours ago, Rattlehead said:

Boy, did I not see that ending coming the first time around. What an excellent episode, McGill pulls off the crazed ex-cop quite well. Ya know, the guy made me laugh a lot so I wasn't expecting that dark of an ending. "Earth to Crockett, Earth to Tubbs!"

 

9 hours ago, Bren10 said:

One of the greatest eps.  My only gripe is the treatment of the computer as a "magic box"  that can do whatever you want it to right away just by typing.  MV by no means was the only offender in this though.  This was a problem in film and tv from the 80s all the way to the 2000s.  Because it was a new technology, and not everybody had access to it, writers thought they could make computers do anything they want and the audience would buy it.  A nasty thing to think about is what all did they do to Arcaro once they got ahold of him and before they put him in that wall?  Suddenly Hank is not so funny at all.

Definitely one of the best episodes...was included in one of TV Guide’s lists of the best 100 TV episodes of all time! I actually don’t think Hank’s partner helped kill Arcaro...he found out after Hank had killed him, and subsequently helped build the wall to hide the body. I don’t know if Hank “tortured” Arcaro, necessarily?? I assumed he probably shot him, and then contacted his partner to help dispose or hide the body. 

3 hours ago, Bren10 said:

I don't know that he went crazy out of fear.  Or if he was even really totally crazy.  Maybe some of that was his way of dealing with the guilt and remorse.  If he ever got caught, life as he knew it would be over.  That's hard to live with and that can make you paranoid.  Maybe there was fear in that respect.  I feel sorry for his partner Marty Lang.  Weldon's admission will punish his partner now too.  That's also a heavy thing to know that's coming.  Looking at Hank at the end staring into the night, I have a feeling a lot of that wackiness won't be there anymore.  He still won't be right in the head, but some of that silliness was to get C&T's attention and direct them on a course.  Even singing I Fought The Law was part of that manipulation.  I don't think Weldon's and Lang's sentences would be the harshest possible though, and I don't think they'd get the death penalty.  If you define insanity as not knowing the difference between right and wrong, then I would argue Weldon is not insane.  In fact, he is acting insane precisely because he DOES know the difference between right and wrong.  He knows he has been wrong all these years, and it's eating him up inside.  His coping mechanism has been his crazy behaviour  Once he "confesses" he gets a lot of that out of his system.  I can see him now becoming depressed or even catatonic after this is over.  If you've ever seen KPAX, I can see him being like Kevin Spacey at the end of that.

Very well put! He knew what he did was wrong, and the guilt & shame ate him up. However, it caused him to lose touch with reality to an extent, because the truth was too painful to outwardly admit to himself. Subconsciously Weldon knew what he’d done...but his conscious mind couldn’t quite handle it. So, in a preservation-mechanism, so-to-speak, he fooled himself into thinking Arcaro was secretly still at-large, and trying to return to Miami.

But, at the end he finally revealed the truth, in his own bizarre way. There may be some question as to whether or not Hank was truly “insane”...but I do think he was obviously very mentally disturbed. I totally agree...that if we were to have gotten to see him after he was taken most likely back to a mental facility, he could have very likely been catatonic, or very depressed & quiet. But hopefully with proper help, he was able to start facing what happened and deal with it in “reality”. 

[jpaul1]

that episode is powerful. one of the rares that reaches Evan in term of deepness for me. about Weldon, i don't think the perpective of redemption leads to madness. but i think the perspective of a very harsh sentence, like sadly most of nowadays societies jails, can bring someone onto the path of madness. when you did sometihng wrong, and you know you did something wrong, you just have to calmy analyse your error, and show the offended your regrets. when you did something wrong, and the only perpective for you is a 70 years in jail with all sorts of gangs. you think, and think, and think about it. there's is almost 0 chance to escape madness

[Matt5]

This is truly a great episode. 

[mjcmmv]

5 minutes ago, jpm1 said:

that episode is powerful. one of the rares that reaches Evan in term of deepness for me. about Weldon, i don't think the perpective of redemption leads to madness. but i think the perspective of a very harsh sentence, like sadly most of nowadays societies jails, can bring someone onto the path of madness. when you did sometihng wrong, and you know you did something wrong, you just have to calmy analyse your error, and show the offended your regrets. when you did something wrong, and the only perpective for you is a 70 years in jail with all sorts of gangs. you think, and think, and think about it. there's is almost 0 chance to escape madness

I agree, this was a great episode and one of my all time favorites. I'm sure Weldon feared the possibility he'd go to jail for killing Acosta, but I also think he was a guy who took the law seriously, like Sonny. And when he was forced to take the law in his own hands to right a wrong, the guilt became too much and he retreated into madness. 

Sonny did the same thing when he "killed" Hackman. Obviously, this isn't an original observation. I'm sure this parallel has been discussed many times before.

[Matt5]

3 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

I agree, this was a great episode and one of my all time favorites. I'm sure Weldon feared the possibility he'd go to jail for killing Acosta, but I also think he was a guy who took the law seriously, like Sonny. And when he was forced to take the law in his own hands to right a wrong, the guilt became too much and he retreated into madness. 

Sonny did the same thing when he "killed" Hackman. Obviously, this isn't an original observation. I'm sure this parallel has been discussed many times before.

Interesting @mjcmmv

[Robbie C.]

11 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

I agree, this was a great episode and one of my all time favorites. I'm sure Weldon feared the possibility he'd go to jail for killing Acosta, but I also think he was a guy who took the law seriously, like Sonny. And when he was forced to take the law in his own hands to right a wrong, the guilt became too much and he retreated into madness. 

Sonny did the same thing when he "killed" Hackman. Obviously, this isn't an original observation. I'm sure this parallel has been discussed many times before.

I never quite took it that way. We see Sonny mourning the loss of Caitlin, but I never got any sense of regret on his part for killing Hackman. Maybe I missed it, but it seemed to simply clear from his mind as soon as it was done. Acosta's case was also different in that he was cleared. Weldon might have felt differently because he stepped in when he felt the justice system failed. Hackman played Sonny, took his wife and unborn child from him, and then simply walked away. Maybe Sonny would turn into Weldon in the future, but I don't see it during the course of the series. It's possible he avoided that situation by 'retreating' into Burnett and seeking justice that way. The expression we see on his face before he shoots Hackman is very reminiscent of how we see Burnett look before he kills. I'm thinking of the whole scene with the line "my brain might be a little scrambled, but I know this game." The Hackman killing could be taken as a peek behind the curtain in terms of what Sonny was capable of when he 'became' Burnett.

[mjcmmv]

14 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I never quite took it that way. We see Sonny mourning the loss of Caitlin, but I never got any sense of regret on his part for killing Hackman. Maybe I missed it, but it seemed to simply clear from his mind as soon as it was done. Acosta's case was also different in that he was cleared. Weldon might have felt differently because he stepped in when he felt the justice system failed. Hackman played Sonny, took his wife and unborn child from him, and then simply walked away. Maybe Sonny would turn into Weldon in the future, but I don't see it during the course of the series. It's possible he avoided that situation by 'retreating' into Burnett and seeking justice that way. The expression we see on his face before he shoots Hackman is very reminiscent of how we see Burnett look before he kills. I'm thinking of the whole scene with the line "my brain might be a little scrambled, but I know this game." The Hackman killing could be taken as a peek behind the curtain in terms of what Sonny was capable of when he 'became' Burnett.

 

Crockett's face was stone cold when he killed Hackman, but I still think his better angel was haunting him afterwards. Weldon was overwhelmed by guilt and to some extent, I  think Sonny was, too. Weldon didn't lose a wife and child, but he did lose his faith in the system. Crockett couldn't rely on the system either and in the end, the conflict was too much for him to bear. 

[Robbie C.]

I still think the loss haunted him more than anything that happened with Hackman. But I also see the Caitlin relationship as his last chance at a normal life, so that raises the stakes for the character. Having that door slammed in his face would be far more damaging in my view than shooting Hackman. There's also the double paradox in that while the system might have failed or betrayed Weldon, Sonny was tricked into using the system to free the very man who would turn around and end his one way out of the undercover life. If there was conflict, I think it would be within Sonny. As in, "how could I have been so stupid?" as opposed to anger with the system (which actually worked as designed and intended in that case).

[vicegirl85]

3 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Crockett's face was stone cold when he killed Hackman, but I still think his better angel was haunting him afterwards. Weldon was overwhelmed by guilt and to some extent, I  think Sonny was, too. Weldon didn't lose a wife and child, but he did lose his faith in the system. Crockett couldn't rely on the system either and in the end, the conflict was too much for him to bear. 

I agree.  Part of his personal code as a police officer was that taking vengeance into his own hands was something that should never happen.  Yes, Crockett was devastated by the loss of Caitlin, especially with the knowledge that this man, for whom he had gone to every length to get released from Death Row--had now taken Caitlin's life as an act of vengeance on Crockett.  Although Sonny was furious with Hackman using him to obtain his release from prison (and to then rub the lie into Sonny's face), and he believed Hackman deserved death, when Sonny killed him he was acting against the code by which he lived.  That put him (almost) on Hackman's level in taking justice into his own hands.  I see it as a conflict within himself, and when he gave in to the desire to take his own vengeance, he did act similarly to the way Weldon took justice into his own hands over Arcaro, when the system didn't convict him.    

I don't think Crockett ever regretted killing Hackman, but I do think he felt guilt over breaking his own code of honor.  Personal vengeance was something he had always stood against, and now he had acted against one of his deepest principles.  I believe that was part of what allowed him to lose (or maybe even surrender) his true identity into the Burnett cover identity.  Weldon lost his sanity in a different way, but I believe his guilt over taking vengeance into his own hands was a big factor for him, too.

[mjcmmv]

22 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I still think the loss haunted him more than anything that happened with Hackman. But I also see the Caitlin relationship as his last chance at a normal life, so that raises the stakes for the character. Having that door slammed in his face would be far more damaging in my view than shooting Hackman. There's also the double paradox in that while the system might have failed or betrayed Weldon, Sonny was tricked into using the system to free the very man who would turn around and end his one way out of the undercover life. If there was conflict, I think it would be within Sonny. As in, "how could I have been so stupid?" as opposed to anger with the system (which actually worked as designed and intended in that case).

Oh, yes. He was definitely furious with himself for freeing Hackman. Hackman saw Sonny's idealism as a powerful weapon and played him so well. 

I don't think Sonny was really looking for a last chance for a normal life. Sonny was crazy about Caitlin, but she kind of just  "fell into his lap"...ahem...

Anyway, I never saw any kind of courtship where they were concerned. Just Caitlin, pushing and and prodding Sonny into this unrealistic, storybook romance.

Being married to a "rock star" would never have been a normal life for him and being married to an undercover cop was certainly not normal for her. 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

2 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree.  Part of his personal code as a police officer was that taking vengeance into his own hands was something that should never happen.  Yes, Crockett was devastated by the loss of Caitlin, especially with the knowledge that this man, for whom he had gone to every length to get released from Death Row--had now taken Caitlin's life as an act of vengeance on Crockett.  Although Sonny was furious with Hackman using him to obtain his release from prison (and to then rub the lie into Sonny's face), and he believed Hackman deserved death, when Sonny killed him he was acting against the code by which he lived.  That put him (almost) on Hackman's level in taking justice into his own hands.  I see it as a conflict within himself, and when he gave in to the desire to take his own vengeance, he did act similarly to the way Weldon took justice into his own hands over Arcaro, when the system didn't convict him.    

I don't think Crockett ever regretted killing Hackman, but I do think he felt guilt over breaking his own code of honor.  Personal vengeance was something he had always stood against, and now he had acted against one of his deepest principles.  I believe that was part of what allowed him to lose (or maybe even surrender) his true identity into the Burnett cover identity.  Weldon lost his sanity in a different way, but I believe his guilt over taking vengeance into his own hands was a big factor for him, too.

You said that very well...

[vicegirl85]

19 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

(snipped)But I also see the Caitlin relationship as his last chance at a normal life, so that raises the stakes for the character. Having that door slammed in his face would be far more damaging in my view than shooting Hackman. (snipped)

You know, I'm still adjusting to this idea of Sonny thinking marriage with Caitlin represents his last chance at a normal life.  "Normal life" meaning that someone who knows your true identity, and with whom you can be your true self, OK.  But surely life as the spouse of a pop singer could only be considered "normal" by a few people.  I do believe he was devastated and that he loved Caitlin, but I still think it was his own breaking of his moral code that affected Sonny and contributed to the Burnett episode, just as I believe that Weldon was driven to a break with reality by the breaking of his own code about personal vengeance.

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, vicegirl85 said:

You know, I'm still adjusting to this idea of Sonny thinking marriage with Caitlin represents his last chance at a normal life.  "Normal life" meaning that someone who knows your true identity, and with whom you can be your true self, OK.  But surely life as the spouse of a pop singer could only be considered "normal" by a few people.  I do believe he was devastated and that he loved Caitlin, but I still think it was his own breaking of his moral code that affected Sonny and contributed to the Burnett episode, just as I believe that Weldon was driven to a break with reality by the breaking of his own code about personal vengeance.

We're definitely on the same wave length, here!

 

[vicegirl85]

11 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Sonny was crazy about Caitlin, but she kind of just  "fell into his lap"...ahem...

Anyway, I never saw any kind of courtship where they were concerned. Just Caitlin, pushing and and prodding Sonny into this unrealistic, storybook romance.

Being married to a "rock star" would never have been a normal life for him and being married to an undercover cop was certainly not normal for her. 

I agree with most of this, but I don't feel like Caitlin "pushed and prodded" Sonny into the romance.  I do believe it was mutual.  Both of them were very wary of each other, and they basically fell into bed together after a near-death experience (the boat chase), that led them to clutch at a very elemental part of life in response.  Then they discovered they'd each made false assumptions about the other... Real love? A reaction to coming out alive from someone's attempt to kill them?  Or lust with potential, that perhaps may have withered with time? 

However real the characters' love may have been (or seemed to each other), the show itself did not make a convincing case for their romance. 

[mjcmmv]

2 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

 I do believe it was mutual.  Both of them were very wary of each other, and they basically fell into bed together after a near-death experience (the boat chase), that led them to clutch at a very elemental part of life in response. 

That's a good point. 

 

[mjcmmv]

27 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Then they discovered they'd each made false assumptions about the other... Real love? A reaction to coming out alive from someone's attempt to kill them?  Or lust with potential, that perhaps may have withered with time? 

However real the characters' love may have been (or seemed to each other), the show itself did not make a convincing case for their romance. 

It was not convincing. Rushed and unbelievable. I did like them together, though and was routing for it to work. So, her death was pretty tragic for me. 

Of course, I'm missing the point of our argument, here. Was it guilt that pushed him over the edge, or losing Caitlin? Probably a little of both. 

Guess we could speculate on this forever. 

Edited June 20, 2019 by mjcmmv

[Robbie C.]

31 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

You know, I'm still adjusting to this idea of Sonny thinking marriage with Caitlin represents his last chance at a normal life.  "Normal life" meaning that someone who knows your true identity, and with whom you can be your true self, OK.  But surely life as the spouse of a pop singer could only be considered "normal" by a few people.  I do believe he was devastated and that he loved Caitlin, but I still think it was his own breaking of his moral code that affected Sonny and contributed to the Burnett episode, just as I believe that Weldon was driven to a break with reality by the breaking of his own code about personal vengeance.

By normal life I mean a life away from undercover and Vice. We see him continually seeking that in the women he meets. And if we're talking Burnett, I think the transition took place when he went after Hackman. And in that sense he could almost excuse it, because it was Burnett who killed Hackman. I'm not really convinced he felt any serious guilt for killing Hackman. For falling for his act and getting him released? Yes. I say that in part because we never really see Sonny regretting kicking the snot out of Glanz in Death and the Lady. I personally think he had a great capacity for rationalizing things if they were 'squaring the books', so to speak. And once that transitioned into Burnett and his capacity for vengeance...we know the rest.

[mjcmmv]

10 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

By normal life I mean a life away from undercover and Vice. We see him continually seeking that in the women he meets. And if we're talking Burnett, I think the transition took place when he went after Hackman. And in that sense he could almost excuse it, because it was Burnett who killed Hackman. I'm not really convinced he felt any serious guilt for killing Hackman. For falling for his act and getting him released? Yes. I say that in part because we never really see Sonny regretting kicking the snot out of Glanz in Death and the Lady. I personally think he had a great capacity for rationalizing things if they were 'squaring the books', so to speak. And once that transitioned into Burnett and his capacity for vengeance...we know the rest.

I saw Sonny bending the law when he needed to a lot, like in Cool Running, with Noogie. And Death and the Lady is another good example. (Even in the pilot when he used a "warranty for radial tires" instead of the real thing!)

Edited June 20, 2019 by mjcmmv

[Robbie C.]

4 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

I saw Sonny bending the law when he needed to a lot, like in Cool Running, with Noogie. And Death and the Lady is another good example. (Even in the pilot when he used a "warranty for radial tires" instead of the real thing! 

His methods were "somewhat unorthodox to the untrained eye" to quote the pilot. And don't forget the Tubbs effect. Tubbs wasn't afraid to seek vengeance, and I think over time some of his attitude might have rubbed off on Sonny. Burnett, of course, lived by that code. Once the shock of Caitlin's death (and especially when he found out she was pregnant) took hold, all bets were off.

Of course, we've derailed another thread...

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, Robbie C. said:

His methods were "somewhat unorthodox to the untrained eye" to quote the pilot. And don't forget the Tubbs effect. Tubbs wasn't afraid to seek vengeance, and I think over time some of his attitude might have rubbed off on Sonny. Burnett, of course, lived by that code. Once the shock of Caitlin's death (and especially when he found out she was pregnant) took hold, all bets were off.

Of course, we've derailed another thread...

LOL, yes, we have!!!

 

[jpaul1]

this is OT, but i don't think Hackman killing was an execution. maybe i missed something, but AFAIK there's no proof of such thing

[vicegirl85]

9 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

 I'm not really convinced he felt any serious guilt for killing Hackman. For falling for his act and getting him released? Yes. I say that in part because we never really see Sonny regretting kicking the snot out of Glanz in Death and the Lady. I personally think he had a great capacity for rationalizing things if they were 'squaring the books', so to speak. And once that transitioned into Burnett and his capacity for vengeance...we know the rest.

Not guilt for killing Hackman, per se.  I think Sonny felt Hackman deserved everything he got.  But IMO, when he hunted Hackman down and pulled a gun on him without direct provocation, i.e. not in self-defense as far as viewers could see, I think Sonny felt like he had crossed a line that was difficult to rationalize.  It didn't fit the usual pattern of his "squaring the books" and was irreversible.  Glanz was left to live another day and choose the future course of his life--Hackman wasn't.  That's just the way I see it, but I accept that everyone else doesn't have to see it that way.

1 hour ago, jpm1 said:

this is OT, but i don't think Hackman killing was an execution. maybe i missed something, but AFAIK there's no proof of such thing

Hard to say for certain.  The shooting wasn't self-defense during an altercation, or a crime of passion.  While I wouldn't go so far as to say Sonny killed Hackman in cold blood, he definitely hunted his nemesis down and approached him with the desire, plan, and loaded weapon for vengeance.  After Sonny shoots him, we are shown that there is a gun in the dead Hackman's hand.  

Did he have the gun when Sonny approached him?  Was he about to shoot Sonny?  Did Sonny plant the gun in Hackman's hand in order to slant the narrative of an investigation?  These questions were not answered (or asked) within the show.  We are left to draw our own conclusions, just like at the end of The Sopranos.

[RedDragon86]

One thing I always wondered the killing of Arcaro, did they torture him? and was he killed the same day or night he was buried behind the wall?