Episode #23 "The Prodigal Son"

[mjcmmv]

On 4/10/2021 at 12:14 AM, vicegirl85 said:

Yes, it was a very stylish episode and I still enjoy watching it, but you made some good points, especially both of the above!

My favorite part was the morning when Crockett is alone in the hotel room getting ready to head for the airport, not knowing if Tubbs was going to go back to Miami or not--but he himself is definitely ready.  He is so neat and organized--not really the way he usually appears.  Take me home!

Then, when Tubbs, looking unusually disheveled, runs all the way through the airport to the ticket counter and Crockett just looks at him, smiles and hands him his ticket.   

Great points, here, vicegirl! 

[ViceFanMan]

Regardless of Crockett & Tubbs being out of their “element”...they didn’t need Castillo, or to ask advice, on how to do their jobs & carry out undercover operations. They both did some really dumb things that they normally would not have...and there really was no reason they should have done these things in NY & just because they were out of Miami.

I agree that Tubbs wasn’t really out if his element...and definitely should have known his way around & how to operate much better. It came off silly and unbelievable. His continual obsession & dysfunctional chasing after his whack-job, manipulating, user, toxic ex-girlfriend was also ridiculous! 

In all honesty the music, “hype” and build-up/advertisements behind this episode were more captivating & better than the episode itself. This was not worthy of a 2hr premiere!

 

[wolfie1996]

5 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

Wow, I never thought of this, wolfie! Interesting perspective! Margaret's one of my favorite characters in MV!

Mine too, actually.....could this element of her character be the reason I wonder?  As I said to Dadrian, also, Danielle was  rather similar in making the running. She gave Sonny a drink and two seconds later was taking his clothes off! I'm starting to think that's his type!

[wolfie1996]

7 hours ago, sdiegolo78 said:

I think that, with that statement, she (Margaret) metaphorically implied she likes to emasculate male 'targets' like Sonny.  And the latter replying 'i don't' means he does not certainly like being emasculated or being in that predicament.

Interesting points, but the thing is, some women DO like guns and for the same reason (probably) that some men do. They extend your power. You  can do things with a gun (defend yourself, exert control) that you can't do without one. It's a bit like riding horses (which I also enjoy)- you can't run at 30mph on your own feet or jump a big jump but once you're "part" of a horse, you can. She also said "I had to take something to make sure  you'd come back." And hey, he certainly enjoyed being the one seduced, don't forget!

[sdiegolo78]

3 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Interesting points, but the thing is, some women DO like guns and for the same reason (probably) that some men do. They extend your power. You  can do things with a gun (defend yourself, exert control) that you can't do without one. It's a bit like riding horses (which I also enjoy)- you can't run at 30mph on your own feet or jump a big jump but once you're "part" of a horse, you can. She also said "I had to take something to make sure  you'd come back." And hey, he certainly enjoyed being the one seduced, don't forget!

True, but I think her statement goes beyond her liking for guns. And her primary objective was to keep tabs on him.

[jpaul1]

On 4/15/2021 at 6:56 PM, ViceFanMan said:

Earlier above, I was incorrect about the pic I posted of one like Jimmy’s car...found a pic of the correct model...so reposting with accurate info, along with most of original post: Saw this on FB earlier...just like Jimmy’s car in this episode, that C&T drove while tailing the drug dealers around New York. Yellow 1958 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz Convertible (not a Deville as originally posted).

Pretty “noticeable” car, even at night...probably not what you’d want to do surveillance in, in reality. But, it’s MV!!  

don't forget we were only 20 years ago from the beauty birth. such car was totally plausible into the streets. also i'm glad you changed your note about the episode. see, don't critize the movie too much, you may realize you were wrong some day

[RedDragon86]

11 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Regardless of Crockett & Tubbs being out of their “element”...they didn’t need Castillo, or to ask advice, on how to do their jobs & carry out undercover operations. They both did some really dumb things that they normally would not have...and there really was no reason they should have done these things in NY & just because they were out of Miami.

I agree that Tubbs wasn’t really out if his element...and definitely should have known his way around & how to operate much better. It came off silly and unbelievable. His continual obsession & dysfunctional chasing after his whack-job, manipulating, user, toxic ex-girlfriend was also ridiculous! 

In all honesty the music, “hype” and build-up/advertisements behind this episode were more captivating & better than the episode itself. This was not worthy of a 2hr premiere!

 

I don't think its ridiculous if they have a strong history together he is always going to do that.

I think Tubbs obsession with Valerie is the characters flaw and not a mistake in the writing. 

Once he saw Valerie in the club I think it would be ridiculous if he never bother with her at all for the rest of the episode. Imagine she just went missing. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by RedDragon86

[RedDragon86]

13 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Not totally. And it was, after all, his home turf. I think the production types just lost track of that. Already the focus was shifting to Sonny and we were dealing more with how HE saw New York than anything Tubbs might have brought to the table.

But Tubbs didn't have any say in NY even if it was his old ground, even the DEA Commander denounces Crockett and Tubbs as cowboys and the NYPD took over the investigation themselves.

I think the reason some say that C&T did things out of the ordinary is because they didn't have any support. I think the character Rene was right, they were basically playing cowboys in New York.

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

But Tubbs didn't have any say in NY even if it was his old ground, even the DEA Commander denounces Crockett and Tubbs as cowboys and the NYPD took over the investigation themselves.

I think the reason some say that C&T did things out of the ordinary is because they didn't have any support. I think the character Rene was right, they were basically playing cowboys in New York.

You forget his local knowledge, old contacts, and so on. Tubbs would have had his own support network of a sort, even if some of it would have been dated. I think it was just more convenient to show the whole thing from Crockett's perspective more or less, and Tubbs was forgotten in the shuffle. I'm making a distinction between why they were in NYC and what Tubbs (should have) brought to the table as being from NYC in the first place.

[RedDragon86]

59 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

You forget his local knowledge, old contacts, and so on. Tubbs would have had his own support network of a sort, even if some of it would have been dated. I think it was just more convenient to show the whole thing from Crockett's perspective more or less, and Tubbs was forgotten in the shuffle. I'm making a distinction between why they were in NYC and what Tubbs (should have) brought to the table as being from NYC in the first place.

There was really no need for Tubbs to do that because they had a big connection through Jimmy Borges, plus they other link was Sacco via Valerie. I really don't see how Tubbs old contacts could have made a difference, they already knew what they were going after and had links. 

[jpaul1]

for me this isn't a major episode in term of entertainement, but it's still a major episode for the series itself. it puts Tubbs on the same level than Crockett, and it also cements the two partnership

the love stories are here to fill the loneliness feeling created by the big metropolis, but personnally i could have gone without

[wolfie1996]

3 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

for me this isn't a major episode in term of entertainement, but it's still a major episode for the series itself. it puts Tubbs on the same level than Crockett, and it also cements the two partnership

the love stories are here to fill the loneliness feeling created by the big metropolis, but personnally i could have gone without

The love stories helped to flesh out the characters and added a bit of colour and variety to what would have otherwise been a sparse plot to cover 90 minutes, I think.

[jpaul1]

16 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

The love stories helped to flesh out the characters and added a bit of colour and variety to what would have otherwise been a sparse plot to cover 90 minutes, I think.

Valerie is pretty deppressive/deppressing, plus the story of the undercover cop that falls in love with the guy she's monitoring at sounds pretty lame to me. and the twist about Margaret leaves a bitter taste. i don't like love stories that end up to the trashbin

[Dadrian]

3 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

Valerie is pretty deppressive/deppressing, plus the story of the undercover cop that falls in love with the guy she's monitoring at sounds pretty lame to me. and the twist about Margaret leaves a bitter taste. i don't like love stories that end up to the trashbin

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

Valerie is pretty deppressive/deppressing, plus the story of the undercover cop that falls in love with the guy she's monitoring at sounds pretty lame to me. and the twist about Margaret leaves a bitter taste. i don't like love stories that end up to the trashbin

Don't watch Miami Vice then :) Literally all their love affairs come to a bad end! Like a lot in real life of course. It's a shame about Margaret because Crockett tells her he really likes her (to me that's better than how he describes his feelings for Brenda (Lust With Potential!) ) and I believe him. He was very disillusioned when he found out she was spying on him ( he doesn't like betrayers) but at least she admits to having feelings for him too. In other circumstances they might have made a go of it, at least for a while. He likes strong women I think.

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

It's a shame about Margaret because Crockett tells her he really likes her (to me that's better than how he describes his feelings for Brenda (Lust With Potential!) ) and I believe him. 

Although, in common with some of his other relationships, it's hard to see what the connection was (outside of sexual attraction).  They aren't shown to have anything else in common--again this was a weakness throughout the show's history with nearly all of C&T's love interests.

The relationship of Gina and Sean Carroon was one of the few where the characters are shown talking about something besides the here-and-now and why each is attracted to the other (besides sex).  Carroon may have been lying to her, but the conversation was focused on both their individual past histories, why they became involved in their current work, and their dreams for the future.  In Crockett's interaction with Caitlin (after overcoming their initial animosity) we saw some of the same delving into the "why" of their attraction.  I never saw this with Margaret.  Not that it never could have happened, but we saw no hint that it did.

[ViceFanMan]

8 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

don't forget we were only 20 years ago from the beauty birth. such car was totally plausible into the streets. also i'm glad you changed your note about the episode. see, don't critize the movie too much, you may realize you were wrong some day

I’m not sure exactly what the “beauty birth” is?? But, as for a classic bright yellow Caddy being in the streets...sure. But not for tailing someone/s when you don’t want to be recognized...even at night. 

I changed the info about the car...but not my feelings about the episode. As for the “movie”...if you mean the 2006 movie version of MV, nope I’m not wrong. It was a disaster! Mann has done some good movies...but that wasn’t one.  

[ViceFanMan]

6 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

I don't think its ridiculous if they have a strong history together he is always going to do that.

I think Tubbs obsession with Valerie is the characters flaw and not a mistake in the writing. 

Once he saw Valerie in the club I think it would be ridiculous if he never bother with her at all for the rest of the episode. Imagine she just went missing. 

“How” he did it was what I found ridiculous. True...his unhealthy obsession with Valerie was supposed to be a character flaw. But, it still made him come across ridiculous, and how he handled it in NY, and how both he & Crockett suddenly seemed to not know how to operate halfway intelligently undercover anymore...the whole thing was ridiculous. 

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

There was really no need for Tubbs to do that because they had a big connection through Jimmy Borges, plus they other link was Sacco via Valerie. I really don't see how Tubbs old contacts could have made a difference, they already knew what they were going after and had links. 

Tubbs’ old contacts would most likely know a lot if the info he & Crockett were after or looking for. He definitely should have had some, utilized & checked with them, he definitely should have known how to get around and operate in NY better...as silly & ridiculous as they had him be, he might as well been a tourist along with Crockett. 

[jpaul1]

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Don't watch Miami Vice then Literally all their love affairs come to a bad end! Like a lot in real life of course. It's a shame about Margaret because Crockett tells her he really likes her (to me that's better than how he describes his feelings for Brenda (Lust With Potential!) ) and I believe him. He was very disillusioned when he found out she was spying on him ( he doesn't like betrayers) but at least she admits to having feelings for him too. In other circumstances they might have made a go of it, at least for a while. He likes strong women I think.

i didn't say i liked MV other love stories neither. most of the time they're just here to serve the main characters playboy facet. about what you say about the deepness of the feelings of Margaret, and Crockett, the thing is they know each other for just one week, that simple fact shows how the love story lacks of deepness. And Valerie having sexual relations with the mafiosi she's investigating on, i mean this is so dumb

[wolfie1996]

54 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Although, in common with some of his other relationships, it's hard to see what the connection was (outside of sexual attraction).  They aren't shown to have anything else in common--again this was a weakness throughout the show's history with nearly all of C&T's love interests.

The relationship of Gina and Sean Carroon was one of the few where the characters are shown talking about something besides the here-and-now and why each is attracted to the other (besides sex).  Carroon may have been lying to her, but the conversation was focused on both their individual past histories, why they became involved in their current work, and their dreams for the future.  In Crockett's interaction with Caitlin (after overcoming their initial animosity) we saw some of the same delving into the "why" of their attraction.  I never saw this with Margaret.  Not that it never could have happened, but we saw no hint that it did.

No there was no time for exploratory or intimate conversations between Sonny and Margaret. It was an instant attraction but he did say he really liked her and I've never heard him say that before or since. So maybe he felt it was more than a one night stand, perhaps sensed some closer connection, who knows?  Bear in mind his true bonds (I think) will always be with men. Colleagues. partners, friends. Margaret was a feminine woman in appearance despite the boyish  hairstyle but she adopted an assertive approach towards him which was more masculine than feminine. Maybe that unconsciously appealed to him. Hey, deep stuff this, considering my brain has just been given a serious workout watching Line Of Duty!

[wolfie1996]

5 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

i didn't say i liked MV other love stories neither. most of the time they're just here to serve the main characters playboy facet. about what you say about the deepness of the feelings of Margaret, and Crockett, the thing is they know each other for just one week, that simple fact shows how the love story lacks of deepness. And Valerie having sexual relations with the mafiosi she's investigating on, i mean this is so dumb

People do "dumb" things in life, you'll find. And attractions can take far less than one week to spring up.

[sdiegolo78]

To me the 'Prodigal son' is easily one in the top 10 episodes of the whole series. And Paul Micheal Glaser had previously directed 'smuggler's blues'. That means quality.

It's nice to see C&T in action in a city outside of Miami for once, given Tubbs is from NY. It wouldn't have made sense for it to be shot in LA, just because there are palm trees or more pastel/stucco buildings.

Plus we get to see Valerie again since 'Rite of passage'. She's broken goods and going downhill since her sister was killed. I cringed when she pointed the gun at Tubbs after he killed Sacco, a big WTF moment for me. Glad she made up by helping C&T in the climatic shootout with the Revilla.

I found the chopper scene a bit over the top, something you'd see in a die hard movie. But Sonny took a hell of a shot when aiming at the helicopter rear rotor. Perhaps something he'd learned in 'nam .

I also agree with some reviewers Tubbs seems like a tourist in his native city, even-though he'd moved down to Miami just a year before the events of this episode. I suppose that's how the story was written, and Rico being from New York not that important to the plot. Needles to say that should have been dealt differently, perhaps showing Tubbs reuniting with some old NYPD partner or CI that could lead him and Crockett to the right direction. I feel though Rico in New York took every opportunity to stalk Valerie, his obsession and link to NY. But again the 'prodigal son' return to the Big Apple should have been written and executed better. It didn't make much justice to the namesake title.

The sequence in Colombia and the interrogation were great, nicely done. And the shootout in the Everglades swamps, where the plane with coke was located. Was interesting to see the whole OCB gang in tactical gear and weaponry similar to SRT outfit. Miguel Revilla had seen all the cops from an hidden position, as they were approaching the plane thereafter the explosion. It was possible he recognized C&T at the meeting before the episode climax.

Loved the blue wacko and how easily Tubbs knocked him out with minimal effort .  Also notice how he was looking at Sonny.

Didn't really dig seeing recycled actors not so long after the pilot and Calderone return. I'm referring to Bill Smitrowicz and MIguel Pinero.

Overall, this episode deserves a 9.5/10, it's compelling to watch for every true MV fan.

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by sdiegolo78

[wolfie1996]

15 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

To me the 'Prodigal son' is easily one in the top 10 episodes of the whole series. And Paul Micheal Glaser had previously directed 'smuggler's blues'. That means quality.

It's nice to see C&T in action in a city outside of Miami for once, given Tubbs is from NY. It wouldn't have made sense for it to be shot in LA, just because there are palm trees or more pastel/stucco buildings.

Plus we get to see Valerie again since 'Rite of passage'. She's broken goods and going downhill since her sister was killed. I cringed when she pointed the gun at Tubbs after he killed Sacco, a big WTF moment for me. Glad she made up by helping C&T in the climatic shootout with the Revilla.

I found the chopper scene a bit over the top, something you'd see in a die hard movie. But Sonny took a hell of a shot when aiming at the helicopter rear rotor. Perhaps something he'd learned in 'nam .

I also agree with some reviewers Tubbs seems like a tourist in his native city, even-though he'd moved down to Miami just a year before the events of this episode. I suppose that's how the story was written, and Rico being from New York not that important to the plot. Needles to say that should have been dealt differently, perhaps showing Tubbs reuniting with some old NYPD partner or CI that could lead him and Crockett to the right direction. I feel though Rico in New York took every opportunity to stalk Valerie, his obsession and link to NY. But again the 'prodigal son' return to the Big Apple should have been written and executed better. It didn't make much justice to the namesake title.

The sequence in Colombia and the interrogation were great, nicely done. And the shootout in the Everglades swamps, where the plane with coke was located. Was interesting to see the whole OCB gang in tactical gear and weaponry similar to SRT outfit. Miguel Revilla had seen all the cops from an hidden position, as they were approaching the plane thereafter the explosion. It was possible he recognized C&T at the meeting before the episode climax.

Loved the blue wacko and how easily Tubbs knocked him out with minimal effort .  Also notice how he was looking at Sonny.

Didn't really dig seeing recycled actors not so long after the pilot and Calderone return. I'm referring to Bill Smitrowicz and MIguel Pinero.

Overall, this episode deserves a 9.5/10, it's compelling to watch for every true MV fan.

 

 

 

Lots of good points here and I agree with  all of them, including the scoring  I've watched this a few times recently and not tired of it. I do wonder how they choose the episode titles, by the way. At least two are the titles of novels! (though fairly appropriate, sort of.) Then we have the bible references..it's maybe harder than you think! What would you have called this one, for instance?

[ViceFanMan]

11 minutes ago, sdiegolo78 said:

To me the 'Prodigal son' is easily one in the top 10 episodes of the whole series. And Paul Micheal Glaser had previously directed 'smuggler's blues'. That means quality.

It's nice to see C&T in action in a city outside of Miami for once, given Tubbs is from NY. It wouldn't have made sense for it to be shot in LA, just because there are palm trees or more pastel/stucco buildings.

Plus we get to see Valerie again since 'Rite of passage'. She's broken goods and going downhill since her sister was killed. I cringed when she pointed the gun at Tubbs after he killed Sacco, a big WTF moment for me. Glad she made up by helping C&T in the climatic shootout with the Revilla.

I found the chopper scene a bit over the top, something you'd see in a die hard movie. But Sonny took a hell of a shot when aiming at the helicopter rear rotor. Perhaps something he'd learned in 'nam .

I also agree with some reviewers Tubbs seems like a tourist in his native city, even-though he'd moved down to Miami just a year before the events of this episode. I suppose that's how the story was written, and Rico being from New York not that important to the plot. Needles to say that should have been dealt differently, perhaps showing Tubbs reuniting with some old NYPD partner or CI that could lead him and Crockett to the right direction. I feel though Rico in New York took every opportunity to stalk Valerie, his obsession and link to NY. But again the 'prodigal son' return to the Big Apple should have been written and executed better. It didn't make much justice to the namesake title.

The sequence in Colombia and the interrogation were great, nicely done. And the shootout in the Everglades swamps, where the plane with coke was located. Was interesting to see the whole OCB gang in tactical gear and weaponry similar to SRT outfit. Miguel Revilla had seen all the cops from an hidden position, as they were approaching the plane thereafter the explosion. It was possible he recognized C&T at the meeting before the episode climax.

Loved the blue wacko and how easily Tubbs knocked him out with minimal effort .  Also notice how he was looking at Sonny.

This episode deserves a 9.5/10, it's compelling to watch for every true MV fan.

 

 

 

Lot of good points...and the “direction” by Glaser was good. To me it was the actual plot & character direction in this that was bizarre and ridiculous.

A ‘piece’ in NY would have been fine...but not the whole 2hrs, Tubbs acted almost more of an outsider/tourist than Crockett, both did some really dumb things that I don’t see them doing anywhere (it was almost like they could only be intelligent cops in Miami...step outside & suddenly they’re floundering/flopping around like chickens with their heads cut off), and the whole thing just didn’t live up to the hype.

As I said in one of my previous posts, it was almost like the build-up, advertising, and hype behind the premiere was way better and cool than the actual episode itself. To me it was disappointing & even annoying/irritating.  But, good music...I’ll give it that.  Definitely not worthy of a 2hr season premiere...this could have been used as a regular 1hr “filler” later in the season.