Episode #23 "The Prodigal Son"

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

One of the key things I like about is that its showing you that its the politicians/ people at the top that are dirty, not necessarily the drug dealers themselves. 

Or certainly EVEN MORE dirty! I mean drug dealers are what they are, there's no pretence, but politicians etc hypocritically pretend to be whiter than white and acting in the public interest. But are just as crooked! That's a lot worse. I mean you only have to look at the UK political situation at present (or probably any country's). Nothing would  shock me now about any British politician.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, RedDragon86 said:

The scene with Julian Beck was intriguing, I was surprised NBC were allowed to film that scene because we know that sort of stuff goes in government especially in the Reagan administration. 

One of the key things I like about is that its showing you that its the politicians/ people at the top that are dirty, not necessarily the drug dealers themselves. 

Corruption has been going on in governments since before the Romans...the Reagan administration was nothing compared to Bill Clinton or Obama’s times.  But, plenty of crime or drama shows portrayed corruption in banking/financial institutions, police departments & government on some level...even way before MV. So, there was nothing in this episode that any network wouldn’t air. Sensors at that time were more concerned about the severity of sexual content or implication than embezzlement of money.

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Corruption has been going on in governments since before the Romans...the Reagan administration was nothing compared to Bill Clinton or Obama’s times.  But, plenty of crime or drama shows portrayed corruption in banking/financial institutions, police departments & government on some level...even way before MV. So, there was nothing in this episode that any network wouldn’t air. Sensors at that time were more concerned about the severity of sexual content or implication than embezzlement of money.

Just because it's commonplace and longstanding doesn't mean it's acceptable though. These are the people who are saying "Do as I say" to the general population though morally  speaking, they have no right to. So it's a fair representation and as such should be shown. The only thing that amazes me is that there aren't more uprisings against such  corruption. Personally I feel an ever increasing  sympathy with those who took part in the French Revolution  (They were very worried in England at the time I believe. in case  people here copied the French.) Show me a politician with any integrity and I'll show you a unicorn.

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Just because it's commonplace and longstanding doesn't mean it's acceptable though. These are the people who are saying "Do as I say" to the general population though morally  speaking, they have no right to. So it's a fair representation and as such should be shown. The only thing that amazes me is that there aren't more uprisings against such  corruption. Personally I feel an ever increasing  sympathy with those who took part in the French Revolution  (They were very worried in England at the time I believe. in case  people here copied the French.) Show me a politician with any integrity and I'll show you a unicorn.

Agreed...this was an accurate portrayal of corruption that sometimes goes on. It was shown as “not acceptable”...but lots of times we either don’t know about it, or there’s not a lot we can immediately do about it. Proving it in court might be practically impossible...and uprisings and/or standing up to corruption are becoming nonexistent because sadly...people (as a whole) are lazy and don’t care about anything or anyone but themselves in that moment.

However, not all banks, police departments, or even some in governments are corrupt. There are legal and even caring people in those organizations, too...although it seems like they’re getting fewer & farther between as time goes on.

[jpaul1]

come on people we are in 2020 we don't need guillotine anymore. you see something bad, put him on trials. the thing lot of people nowadays forget this, and talk of stupid uprisings while they have the power to put basically anyone on trials. uprising = dictatorship. back on topic

Valerie flirting with a mafiosi is not dumb, it's actually completely retarded. i mean you're close to the asylum when you do such things. her superior should have relieved, or reaffected her. that scenaristic choice goes into a cul-de-sac to me

regarding Maggie, you can have strong feelings for a person during the first week. but there's a gap between feeling it, and saying it. this being said anyone has is own behavior. but it's something that personnally i won't do

regarding Tubbs, and Crockett discutable lone wolfing. i agree with you @RedDragon86 when you say some of their choices are nearly suicidal. plus if i remember correctly the plot, they weren't originally there to arrest anyone, but more to gather informations; i could be wrong though, as i don't watch the series as a 'surgeon' and sometimes i miss things most of vicers know for 30 years . but when they blow the kingpins warehouse up, this is totally dumb, unrealistic, whatever you want. I'm sincerely sorry to remind to some the series hasn't been crafted by God . i mean even the CIA wouldn't have dared doing this

regarding Tubbs not reconing. we don't know what kind of detective he was. he could be in counter narco, as he could be not. i'm not sure detectives who don't evolve in narcotics have that much of informers. i know street cops have lot of informers, but they evolve in the radius of their neighborhood. and they are not detectives. so we don't really know if Tubbs had that trick into his pocket

Edited April 27, 2021 by jpaul1

[wolfie1996]

3 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

come on people we are in 2020 we don't need guillotine anymore. you see something bad, put him on trials. the thing lot of people nowadays forget this, and talk of stupid uprisings while they have the power to put basically anyone on trials. uprising = dictatorship. back on topic

Valerie flirting with a mafiosi is not dumb, it's actually completely retarded. i mean you're close to the asylum when you do such things. her superior should have relieved, or reaffected her. that scenaristic choice goes into a cul-de-sac to me

regarding Maggie, you can have strong feelings for a person during the first week. but there a gap between feeling it, and saying it. this being said anyone has is own behavior. but it's something that personnally i won't do

regarding Tubbs, and Crockett discutable lone wolfing. i agree with you @RedDragon86 when you say some of their choices are nearly suicidal. plus if i remember correctly the plot, they weren't originally there to arrest anyone, but more to gather informations; i could be wrong tho, as i don't watch the series as a 'surgeon' and sometimes i miss things most of vicers know since 30 years . but when they blow the kingpins warehouse, this is totally dumb, unrealistic, whatever you want. I'm sincerely sorry to remind to some the series hasn't been crafted by God . i mean even the CIA wouldn't have dared doing this

regarding Tubbs not reconing. we don't know what kind of detective he was. he could be in counter narco, as he could be not. i'm not sure detectives who don't evolve in narcotics have that much of informers. i know street cops have lot of informers, but they evolve in the radius of their neighborhood. and they are not detectives. so we don't really know if if Tubbs has that trick into his pocket

Well to take your points in order, I beg to differ re the guillotine. I can think of a few  candidates I'd queue up to pull the lever for, actually. You say there are other methods of redress? Which are they? I'd be really interested to know. There's no point having two major parties and a "first past the post" electoral process (so at least the one who doesn't get in can act as Opposition)  if BOTH of those major parties are singing from the same hymn sheet. Then it becomes a dictatorship, with no way of making anyone  accountable. Right, to get back to the episode, remember Crockett's romance had to be fitted into 45 minutes  Not much time for prolonged wooing, even if he was that type! I liked Margaret actually. Her directness didn't bother me. About the lack of realism in the plot- well, it isn't a documentary so I suppose  writers have some artistic licence and can use their imagination (I mean who has an alligator living on their boat??!!) As for Tubbs, wasn't he in Homicide? I suppose he might have had a few contacts but maybe it would have spoiled the flow of action if he'd had to start contacting them. The idea was that they were forced to cope as lone wolves, that was part of the suspense. I personally really liked this episode and have watched it a few times. I think it deserved its 90 minute slot.

[AndrewRemington]

To me this episode is everything a MV episode should be (except for it mainly taking place in New York)! Lots of class, great music, exciting scenes, etc. Very strong atmosphere, and with it being a double-length episode, we get into the story more.

I much agree with @RedDragon86 on the scene with Julian Beck. It reveals the very real evil-doings of the big-wigs of the world.

[Robbie C.]

6 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Well to take your points in order, I beg to differ re the guillotine. I can think of a few  candidates I'd queue up to pull the lever for, actually. You say there are other methods of redress? Which are they? I'd be really interested to know. There's no point having two major parties and a "first past the post" electoral process (so at least the one who doesn't get in can act as Opposition)  if BOTH of those major parties are singing from the same hymn sheet. Then it becomes a dictatorship, with no way of making anyone  accountable. Right, to get back to the episode, remember Crockett's romance had to be fitted into 45 minutes  Not much time for prolonged wooing, even if he was that type! I liked Margaret actually. Her directness didn't bother me. About the lack of realism in the plot- well, it isn't a documentary so I suppose  writers have some artistic licence and can use their imagination (I mean who has an alligator living on their boat??!!) As for Tubbs, wasn't he in Homicide? I suppose he might have had a few contacts but maybe it would have spoiled the flow of action if he'd had to start contacting them. The idea was that they were forced to cope as lone wolves, that was part of the suspense. I personally really liked this episode and have watched it a few times. I think it deserved its 90 minute slot.

Tubbs was Armed Robbery, but his brother was Narcotics.

[jpaul1]

12 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Tubbs was Armed Robbery, but his brother was Narcotics.

do you have a source for this. I'm not doubting, i just want to know the source. also do we know since when he was there

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

do you have a source for this. I'm not doubting, i just want to know the source. also do we know since when he was there

If I remember right, in the Pilot it’s stated what division Tubbs had been in, in the NYPD...as well as his brother, when they do a background check on Tubbs. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[jpaul1]

yeah, this is what they state at MV wiki too. but they don't give any info about his experience there. in these conditions, it's pretty difficult to evaluate if he had lot of informers

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

yeah, this is what they state at MV wiki too. but they don't give any info about his experience there. in these conditions, it's pretty difficult to evaluate if he had lot of informers

He would have been on the force for a few years there, as I doubt he started out, or went straight to armed robbery division. He probably would’ve started out as a beat/rookie cop. Then at some point, moved up or over to armed robbery. But, whatever the case he still would’ve been there long enough to have made some kind of contacts/informants, and had friends on the force. Even if they were just a few, he still should/would have checked with them about the info he & Crockett were needing/wanting. The way they did it, Tubbs might just as well of been a tourist just like Crockett. 

[jpaul1]

30 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

He would have been on the force for a few years there, as I doubt he started out, or went straight to armed robbery division. He probably would’ve started out as a beat/rookie cop. Then at some point, moved up or over to armed robbery. But, whatever the case he still would’ve been there long enough to have made some kind of contacts/informants, and had friends on the force. Even if they were just a few, he still should/would have checked with them about the info he & Crockett were needing/wanting. The way they did it, Tubbs might just as well of been a tourist just like Crockett. 

when they change their affectation upon order, on demand, or after promotion, NY cops (AFAIK) change of neighborhood. beginners work in specific neighborhoods. they never operate outside. so when you get the detective badge you can be assigned to a totally new area. thus you can work as a plainclothesman (beginner), and have lot of informers. and when you get promoted to detective, you land into an area when your number of informers is close to 0.

this being said Tubbs could have still triggered some of his old contacts in the following cases:

- the dealers he (as well as Crockett) is chasing are in the exact same neighborhood he worked in before being promoted to detective

- or the dealers are into one of the old neighborhoods he 'made his weapons in' (like we say here), and he contacted some old cop buddies who are still working there

Edited April 28, 2021 by jpaul1

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

when they change their affectation upon order, on demand, or after promotion, NY cops (AFAIK) change of neighborhood. beginners work in specific neighborhoods. they never operate outside. so when you get the detective badge you can be assigned to a totally new area. thus you can work as a plainclothesman (beginner), and have lot of informers. and when you get promoted to detective, you land into an area when your number of informers is close to 0.

this being said Tubbs could have still triggered some of his old contacts in the following cases:

- the dealers he (as well as Crockett) is chasing are in the exact same neighborhood he worked in before being promoted to detective

- or the dealers are into one of the old neighborhoods he 'crafted his weapons in' (like we say here), and he contacted some old cop buddies who are still working there

True, getting promoted possibly or probably would have moved Tubbs into different neighborhoods or parts of the city. However, from friends or contacts he made in either neighborhood or part of the city, he could still use them if and when needed. And he definitely should have tried to get in contact with them when he and Crockett showed up for their case. 

[Robbie C.]

11 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

do you have a source for this. I'm not doubting, i just want to know the source. also do we know since when he was there

It was mentioned in the pilot, both on screen and in the script (although the script has him as motor patrol with the 61st Precinct in the Bronx). He was there right up until Raphael was killed (which according to the script was about a month prior to the action we see).

[OCBman]

A bit raw, but you get the idea...

[jpaul1]

been rewatching the pilot, and there's absolutely no reference to Tubbs precedent job in NY. even though there are few hints. the only slight thing we hear, it's that he worked into the Bronx (which the 61 precinct is not a part of), maybe into some identity service. but it can also be interpreted as Crockett just finishing reading Tubbs identity card. leading me to think that script, and final scene are two (very) different things

Tubbs says another interesting thing, he says of course all (his identity) was fake. Do you seriously think bosses in NY would have mandated a small Bronx cop? this shows Tubbs was probably an officer (not a detective like Crockett)

however there's a good hint in the brother murder scene. that scene shows obviously the latest assignment of Tubbs. Tubbs was present during a sensitive narcotics deal. that scene very likely takes place in the 61 precinct (Tubbs fake identity shows his brother was a 61 precinct cop. the presence of docks is also compatible with the 61 precinct). This could only happen in the following cases

Tubbs was a simple officer (patrol man) freshly assigned to the 61 precinct. And he was sent in reinforcement at his brother deal. I don't think he was a detective, as he calls once himself talking with Crockett a 'small cop'. I don't think he would have said that if he was a detective

the second possibility, he was freshly assigned to the narcotics. I tend for that one. i hardly see his 61 precinct affectation as the hasard fruit. a change from Bronx to Brooklyn to remain a simple street cop seems no logic. while a change to incorporate his brother force he admired so much seems more plausible

But we still don't know if he was a simple officer, or if he was a detective like Crockett. The badge he shows was certainly a detective badge, but it was his brothers. Wikipedia says Tubbs was a detective, but the fandom says he was an officer. I highly doubt that for the series glamour Tubbs wouldn't had been promoted detective later during his Miami career. But this is another subject

these obervings were made after rewatching the pilot. maybe more infos can be found in the other episodes

[ViceFanMan]

38 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

been rewatching the pilot, and there's absolutely no reference to Tubbs precedent job in NY. even though there are few hints. the only slight thing we hear, it's that he worked into the Bronx (which the 61 precinct is not a part of), maybe into some identity service. but it can also be interpreted as Crockett just finishing reading Tubbs identity card. leading me to think that script, and final scene are two (very) different things

Tubbs says another interesting thing, he says of course all (his identity) was fake. Do you seriously think bosses in NY would have mandated a small Bronx cop? this shows Tubbs was probably an officer (not a detective like Crockett)

however there's a good hint in the brother murder scene. that scene shows obviously the latest assignment of Tubbs. Tubbs was present during a sensitive narcotics deal. that scene very likely takes place in the 61 precinct (Tubbs fake identity shows his brother was a 61 precinct cop. the presence of docks is also compatible with the 61 precinct). This could only happen in the following cases

Tubbs was a simple officer (patrol man) freshly assigned to the 61 precinct. And he was sent in reinforcement at his brother deal. I don't think he was a detective, as he calls once himself talking with Crockett a 'small cop'. I don't think he would have said that if he was a detective

the second possibility, he was freshly assigned to the narcotics. I tend for that one. i hardly see his 61 precinct affectation as the hasard fruit. a change from Bronx to Brooklyn to remain a simple street cop seems no logic. while a change to incorporate his brother force he admired so much seems more plausible

But we still don't know if he was a simple officer, or if he was a detective like Crockett. The badge he shows was certainly a detective badge, but it was his brothers. Wikipedia says Tubbs was a detective, but the fandom says he was an officer. I highly doubt that for the series glamour Tubbs wouldn't had been promoted detective later during his Miami career. But this is another subject

these obervings were made after rewatching the pilot. maybe more infos can be found in the other episodes

Tubbs himself or the background check Crockett has Gina do, states what actual division that he’d had been in, in NY. I watched the Pilot again a while back...but I’ll have to get it out again & look for that specific scene/s. It’s an original 1984 NBC airing, so no editing or cuts.

Tubbs had tried to pass himself off as a full-fledged ‘detective’ when he first came to Miami...but, I don’t think he was technically yet. Once he transferred to Miami, I think they promoted him to one, as they were probably needing Vice detectives...not exactly the division of choice for lots, I’m sure.

But, his brother Rafael probably either had him assist in the drug-sting against Calderone...or Rico on his own tailed the operation because he was worried about a double-cross. That’s most likely why Tubbs was there when his brother was killed.

[vicegirl85]

11 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Rico on his own tailed the operation because he was worried about a double-cross. That’s most likely why Tubbs was there when his brother was killed.

That was the impression I received, that Rico wanted to be present as some kind of unofficial backup for his revered older brother.  It *seemed* that Rafael had spoken to him regarding the Calderone operation and Rico wanted to be there.

[RedDragon86]

24 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Tubbs himself or the background check Crockett has Gina do, states what actual division that he’d had been in, in NY. I watched the Pilot again a while back...but I’ll have to get it out again & look for that specific scene/s. It’s an original 1984 NBC airing, so no editing or cuts.

Tubbs had tried to pass himself off as a full-fledged ‘detective’ when he first came to Miami...but, I don’t think he was technically yet. Once he transferred to Miami, I think they promoted him to one, as they were probably needing Vice detectives...not exactly the division of choice for lots, I’m sure.

But, his brother Rafael probably either had him assist in the drug-sting against Calderone...or Rico on his own tailed the operation because he was worried about a double-cross. That’s most likely why Tubbs was there when his brother was killed.

I don't think his brother would have wanted him there. You get a sense that Rafael didn't know Tubbs was observing, well that's how I felt about the situation when his brother was at that meet.

Side note - anybody else notice that the shooter who killed Rafael was the same guy who fired at C&Ts where Borges was killed?

Edited April 29, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

10 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

That was the impression I received, that Rico wanted to be present as some kind of unofficial backup for his revered older brother.  It *seemed* that Rafael had spoken to him regarding the Calderone operation and Rico wanted to be there.

 

5 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

You get a sense that Rafael didn't know Tubbs was there, that's how I felt about the situation when his brother was a that meet.

Side note - anybody else notice that the shooter who killed Rafael was the same guy who fired at C&Ts where Borges was killed?

Agreed...I’m not sure Rafael knew Rico was there.

I had not noticed the shooter was the same...cool to know! 

[jpaul1]

i don't think Tubbs would have gone lone wolfing during his brother killing. for the following reasons. Raphael wouldn't have told his brother of the operation happening. i mean on a professionnal, or brotherhood level it would have been non sense. for me the only reason for Tubbs to be there is to be part of the operation or as s street cop in reinforcement, backup should i say, or as a narcotics

I just rewatched the pilot, i'm sure at 99% that Tubbs exact NY precinct hasn't been told. his brothers yes, but not Ricos. nobody knows actually who's Tubbs as he's flooding with false info. until the boat clash, where he reveals the truth. but even there he gives only few sops (he says 'little Bronx cop', and Crockett finds nothing more with his identity papers)

Edited April 29, 2021 by jpaul1

[vicegirl85]

4 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

i don't think Tubbs would have gone lone wolfing during his brother killing. for the following reasons. Raphael wouldn't have told his brother of the operation happening. i mean on a professionnal, or brotherhood level it would have been non sense. for me the only reason for Tubbs to be there is to be part of the operation or as s street cop in reinforcement, backup should i say, or as a narcotics

Ah well, of course you're correct there!   For me it's one of those times when MV asks us to suspend disbelief... I don't really know or have an informed opinion when it comes to believable police protocol, LOL.  By the way the scene was shot, it seemed as if Tubbs may have been there surreptitiously rather than in an official role.  I'm not set on this idea, though.

[ViceFanMan]

21 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

i don't think Tubbs would have gone lone wolfing during his brother killing. for the following reasons. Raphael wouldn't have told his brother of the operation happening. i mean on a professionnal, or brotherhood level it would have been non sense. for me the only reason for Tubbs to be there is to be part of the operation or as s street cop in reinforcement, backup should i say, or as a narcotics

I just rewatched the pilot, i'm sure at 99% that Tubbs exact NY precinct hasn't been told. his brothers yes, but not Ricos. nobody knows actually who's Tubbs as he's flooding with false info. until the boat clash, where he reveals the truth. but even there he gives only few sops (he says 'little Bronx cop', and Crockett finds nothing more with his identity papers)

I don’t think it’s completely unbelievable that Rafael wouldn’t have told Rico about the drug bust...I could also see him having Rico assist...give him more experience and possibly was grooming him to eventually join his division. I’m sure they communicated, both on a professional level as well as in a brotherly manner. I could also see Rico, unbeknownst to Rafael, keeping tabs on the operation as Calderone probably already had a rep for killing and/or ripping off buyers. 

I’m pretty sure Tubbs’ rank in the NYPD is stated in the Pilot...I will watch it later tonight again and specifically look for that scene. Someone earlier stated something about armed robbery division...and I think that’s correct. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, jpaul1 said:

i don't think Tubbs would have gone lone wolfing during his brother killing. for the following reasons. Raphael wouldn't have told his brother of the operation happening. i mean on a professionnal, or brotherhood level it would have been non sense. for me the only reason for Tubbs to be there is to be part of the operation or as s street cop in reinforcement, backup should i say, or as a narcotics

I just rewatched the pilot, i'm sure at 99% that Tubbs exact NY precinct hasn't been told. his brothers yes, but not Ricos. nobody knows actually who's Tubbs as he's flooding with false info. until the boat clash, where he reveals the truth. but even there he gives only few sops (he says 'little Bronx cop', and Crockett finds nothing more with his identity papers)

Okay...I was able to pop home over a lunch time, and I got the Pilot out again. Tubbs’ division is stated! In the scene where he shows up at Crockett’s boat the morning after they’d been to the club the night before (and Gina tells Crockett that Tubbs isn’t Rafael as the background check revealed he’d been dead for 3 weeks), Sonny yanks him down into the boat, threatening him with a flare gun...demanding to know who he really is. Rico then reveals he’s Rafael‘s brother, and his real ID is in his jacket pocket. Crockett pulls it out and reads aloud “Ricardo Tubbs—armed robbery division.” 

As to how Tubbs was present when his brother was killed...Tubbs also said his brother was one of the best cops he knew, the reason he became a cop, and NY homicide wasn’t getting anywhere. To me that says Tubbs & his brother were very close...so whether Rafael had had Rico assist him in the drug bust on Calderone, or Rico chose to follow his brother’s operation on his own to try and help if there was a double-cross...I still think it totally plausible that he was there.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by ViceFanMan