Episode #23 "The Prodigal Son"

[jpaul1]

37 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Okay...I was able to pop home over a lunch time, and I got the Pilot out again. Tubbs’ division is stated! In the scene where he shows up at Crockett’s boat the morning after they’d been to the club the night before (and Gina tells Crockett that Tubbs isn’t Rafael as the background check revealed he’d been dead for 3 weeks), Sonny yanks him down into the boat, threatening him with a flare gun...demanding to know who he really is. Rico then reveals he’s Rafael‘s brother, and his real ID is in his jacket pocket. Crockett pulls it out and reads aloud “Ricardo Tubbs—armed robbery division.” 

As to how Tubbs was present when his brother was killed...Tubbs also said his brother was one of the best cops he knew, the reason he became a cop, and NY homicide wasn’t getting anywhere. To me that says Tubbs & his brother were very close...so whether Rafael had had Rico assist him in the drug bust on Calderone, or Rico chose to follow his brother’s operation on his own to try and help if there was a double-cross...I still think it totally plausible that he was there.

 

this is a very interesting post because the french version doesn't say that at all. it says what you said except instead of armed robbery division, it says identities service. which i personnally interpreted, as Crockett reading mechanically the identity card in shock. so if we keep to the US version, as it's an US series, Ricardo would be a Bronx cop. probably a patrol cop then.

as Crockett clearly reads Bronx armed robbery division, there's only one chance for Tubbs to be at the murder location, it would be Raphael deal took place into the Bronx precinct Tubbs was working in. I don't know if this is plausible. but logically i think narcotics should be able to operate into different precincts. maybe a narco cops which i know come here from time to time could confirm this. i'm speculating there. but it seems logical

I don't think Tubbs would have been there in any unofficial way. He doesn't know the folder, he doesn't know who are the bad guys who are the good. it could end up into a disaster

regarding the moment when Rico says NY homicide wasn't getting nowhere, in french it's not said that way. Rico says exactly he was going super slow in the north, he wasn't getting any result

[ViceFanMan]

24 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

this is a very interesting post because the french version doesn't say that at all. it says what you said except instead of armed robbery division, it says identities service. which i personnally interpreted, as Crockett reading mechanically the identity card in shock. so if we keep to the US version, as it's an US series, Ricardo would be a Bronx cop. probably a patrol cop then.

as Crockett clearly reads Bronx armed robbery division, there's only one chance for Tubbs to be at the murder location, it would be Raphael deal took place into the Bronx precinct Tubbs was working in. I don't know if this is plausible. but logically i think narcotics should be able to operate into different precincts. maybe a narco cops which i know come here from time to time could confirm this. i'm speculating there. but it seems logical

I don't think Tubbs would have been there in any unofficial way. He doesn't know the folder, he doesn't know who are the bad guys who are the good. it could end up into a disaster

regarding the moment when Rico says NY homicide wasn't getting nowhere, in french it's not said that way. Rico says exactly he was going super slow in the north, he wasn't getting any result

Interesting...ALL official home video releases (DVD & Blu-Ray sets) are sadly syndicated versions (aka reruns, aka edited/cut from original airings). This includes all U.S. and other countries’ releases. However, I’ve only recently heard and/or discovered that sometimes other countries (other than the U.S.) edit or alter those versions even more, for various reasons. I’m not sure what company put out the French versions, but it sounds like things were altered even beyond the original U.S. alterations or editing for reruns.

In the U.S. Pilot, Tubbs sarcastically says that “homicide up north wasn’t getting anywhere.” That was basically his words verbatim. But, as for Bronx precincts or any precinct Tubbs might be in...no specific areas of NYC are stated. It just says “armed robbery division”.

Again, if Tubbs and his brother were as close as he made it sound, then I think it totally possible that Rafael could have gotten him to assist his operation on loan-out...being his brother and I’m sure Rafael had some clout or say as he’d been a detective for who knows how many years. I also totally see it possible that Tubbs was there on his own...even if his brother hadn’t officially brought him along. Tubbs (nor Crockett for that matter) was not known for staying put & doing nothing when he knew family or friends were in danger or involved in dangerous situations.

[Robbie C.]

That's why I SAID Armed Robbery Division. The script was different. And the original version is, of course, definitive...not what they changed it to during translation.

I provided an explanation for Tubbs' presence in my story Calm Before the Storm, which I think is more plausible than what's being offered. Armed Robbery would have resisted loaning one of their guys out, and narcotics units don't all act the same. US police forces are not especially standardized, and the special units are often known for their high-handed behavior. Raphael might not have been able to get back-up for what he thought was going to be a routine meet, and he could have asked Rico to shadow him just in case because he had a bad feeling. The way the scene's shot, Rico's clearly out there by himself...no radio or even proper stake-out gear (his cut-down's more useful for the kind of close-in work NYPD Armed Robbery units dealt with than a narcotics surveillance assignment).

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

That's why I SAID Armed Robbery Division. The script was different. And the original version is, of course, definitive...not what they changed it to during translation.

I provided an explanation for Tubbs' presence in my story Calm Before the Storm, which I think is more plausible than what's being offered. Armed Robbery would have resisted loaning one of their guys out, and narcotics units don't all act the same. US police forces are not especially standardized, and the special units are often known for their high-handed behavior. Raphael might not have been able to get back-up for what he thought was going to be a routine meet, and he could have asked Rico to shadow him just in case because he had a bad feeling. The way the scene's shot, Rico's clearly out there by himself...no radio or even proper stake-out gear (his cut-down's more useful for the kind of close-in work NYPD Armed Robbery units dealt with than a narcotics surveillance assignment).

I also said it was armed robbery...it was more a matter of finding which scene & where in the Pilot it was stated, as I guess other countries outside the U.S. have altered it and/or have different translations in their DVD/Blu-Ray releases.

Fanfic stories are fun sometimes, but they’re not actual show-canon. Going by what’s shown in the Pilot, I agree it looks as though Tubbs is out there on his own & unbeknownst to his brother. However, in TV world they don’t always do things realistically...especially older shows.

They were more about entertainment & escape than reality...including with real-life police procedures, although they usually tried to portray the general ones. So, I could have seen Tubbs being present at the NY Calderone deal from either scenario...his brother had him along, or he chose to be there on his own to try and be extra backup if needed.

Edited April 30, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Robbie C.]

I never said my story was show canon...I said I preferred it to what was being bandied around here. All the show gives us is Tubbs seeing his brother killed and being alone with the body and his grief. There's no context aside from that moment. 

[vicegirl85]

That is a great story, Robbie.  And it works excellently with the somewhat ambiguous and unclear information about Tubbs and his brother and the meet that we are given within the actual episode.  It actually provides a coherent scenario for the events we are shown.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

I never said my story was show canon...I said I preferred it to what was being bandied around here. All the show gives us is Tubbs seeing his brother killed and being alone with the body and his grief. There's no context aside from that moment. 

True, there’s not much explanation of how or why Tubbs was present when his brother was killed. But, what was being “bandied” around was most likely the most plausible...he either was there officially with his brother’s knowledge, or he was there unofficially on his own to try and help out in case there was a double-cross. Either way he wasn’t able to be close enough, or to get to Rafael before Calderone had him shot.  

 I don’t think we’re supposed to really put that much thought into the original reason of why Tubbs was present. We only needed to know that both were cops in NY, and he was there & witnessed his brother being killed. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[jpaul1]

12 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Raphael might not have been able to get back-up for what he thought was going to be a routine meet

we clearly see the suitcases. which tells us it was the final deal. the one where the dealer gets caught. so the backup was there, it had to. also this is my personnal thought, but i firmly believe that a rogue cop that wouldn't had been approved by the OP supervisor would have made something really messy. can you imagine Castillo at the end of an OP. hey who's that guy? oh, its just my bro i asked him to participate without telling you anything . plus Tubbs could be misunderstood for a dealer, and targeted by the policemen in operation

 

12 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

They were more about entertainment & escape than reality...

i agree with this. maybe there's just no logic into the thing

Edited April 30, 2021 by jpaul1

[ViceFanMan]

5 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

we clearly see the suitcases. which tells us it was the final deal. the one where the dealer gets caught. so the backup was there, it had to. also this is my personnal thought, but i firmly believe that a rogue cop that wouldn't had been approved by the OP supervisor would have made something really messy. can you imagine Castillo at the end of an OP. hey who's that guy? oh, its just my bro i asked him to participate without telling you anything . plus Tubbs could be misunderstood for a dealer, and targeted by the policemen in operation

 

i agree with this. maybe there's just no logic into the thing

I agree that backup should have been present when they were doing the deal with Calderone...don’t know if Tubbs was technically part of that, or he chose to come on his own...but he was a cop, so rouge or not, he wouldn’t have messed things up that bad...especially if it was a double cross or a hit & it turned to chaos anyway. 

But, yeah, ultimately I don’t think we’re really supposed to put that much thought or logic into that specific scene.  The point was to show Tubbs had been there, and witnessed the murder of his brother...and that’s why he was after Calderone when he showed up in Miami.  

[jpaul1]

bit more about Tubbs rank. in World of trouble we can see Crockett is sergeant. it seems (according to the research i made. i could be wrong) that the detective rank doesn't exist in Miami. sergeant seems to be the highest rank for that force for a rank policeman. in that same episode we also see Tubbs wearing a golden badge which means (according to my research) he's or corporal, or sergeant. as i believe they wouldn't have promoted him above Crockett. the police officer badge being silver

you need to zoom in to see sergeant

Tubbs golden badge

police officer

Miami police force ranks (only site i could find sadly)

https://publicsafety.wikia.org/wiki/Miami_Dade_Police_Department_(Florida)#Ranks_and_Insignia

i don't know if these were T & C ranks at the series beginning though. all these small details seem not quite important, but in the end they maybe are. because from one thing to another we can discover interesting things. I just hope not being boring too much

edit: in Florence Italy Tubbs rank is sergeant. even though on the image it seems the badge has been kinda crafted for the series purpose

Edited April 30, 2021 by jpaul1

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, jpaul1 said:

bit more about Tubbs rank. in World of trouble we can see Crockett is sergeant. it seems (according to the research i made. i could be wrong) that the detective rank doesn't exist in Miami. sergeant seems to be the highest rank for that force for a rank policeman. in that same episode we also see Tubbs wearing a golden badge which means (according to my research) he's or corporal, or sergeant. as i believe they wouldn't have promoted him above Crockett. the police officer badge being silver

you need to zoom in to see sergeant

Tubbs golden badge

police officer

Miami police force ranks (only site i could find sadly)

https://publicsafety.wikia.org/wiki/Miami_Dade_Police_Department_(Florida)#Ranks_and_Insignia

i don't know if these were T & C ranks at the series beginning though. all these small details seem not quite important, but in the end they maybe are. because from one thing to another we can discover interesting things. I just hope not being boring too much

edit: in Florence Italy Tubbs rank is sergeant. even though on the image it seems the badge has been kinda crafted for the series purpose

Interesting info. I’m not sure they were that accurate with badges or rank names...as even the division names (Miami Vice & OCB) were fictitious (at least for Miami at the time) & created for the show. I think Crockett & Tubbs were supposed to be equal as far as rank...but whether it was detective, or sergeant...I don’t remember? It seems as if they were referred to as detectives sometimes in the show...but not sure, lol! 

[Robbie C.]

Gold is normally detective in most forces, which can equate (but doesn't always) to sergeant. And Vice wasn't fictional. There was a Vice division in Metro-Dade. 

[ViceFanMan]

46 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Gold is normally detective in most forces, which can equate (but doesn't always) to sergeant. And Vice wasn't fictional. There was a Vice division in Metro-Dade. 

True...most major city police departments will have a Vice division of some kind, and Metro-Dade in Miami did have one (I would assume still does). However, it wasn’t called “Miami” Vice, and I don’t believe there was a division called the Organized Crime Bureau (OCB) either...at least back in the 80s. The names and even some of what the division on the show got to do was the fictional part. 

[ViceFanMan]

10 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

bit more about Tubbs rank. in World of trouble we can see Crockett is sergeant. it seems (according to the research i made. i could be wrong) that the detective rank doesn't exist in Miami. sergeant seems to be the highest rank for that force for a rank policeman. in that same episode we also see Tubbs wearing a golden badge which means (according to my research) he's or corporal, or sergeant. as i believe they wouldn't have promoted him above Crockett. the police officer badge being silver

you need to zoom in to see sergeant

Tubbs golden badge

police officer

Miami police force ranks (only site i could find sadly)

https://publicsafety.wikia.org/wiki/Miami_Dade_Police_Department_(Florida)#Ranks_and_Insignia

i don't know if these were T & C ranks at the series beginning though. all these small details seem not quite important, but in the end they maybe are. because from one thing to another we can discover interesting things. I just hope not being boring too much

edit: in Florence Italy Tubbs rank is sergeant. even though on the image it seems the badge has been kinda crafted for the series purpose

Just watched “Little Miss Dangerous” again...and Tubbs has a gold badge in it. 

[jpaul1]

12 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Gold is normally detective in most forces, which can equate (but doesn't always) to sergeant. And Vice wasn't fictional. There was a Vice division in Metro-Dade. 

yep this is true for NY police force. the thing is the only 2 links i found regarding Miami police ranks said there wasn't detectives in the Miami force. one even putting on same level a police officer (lower rank) and detectives. which if it was proved to be true, would show that detective in this force don't equal the NY rank then. in NY police detective is a prestigious rank, it's the highest rank for rank policeman. above, it concerns people responsible of other policemen/women

yeah as i said Tubbs was sergeant in Florence Italy. so he probably began his Miami carreer as corporal, or sergeant. maybe as simple police officer at the beginning, who knows. it wouldn't had been illogical

i don't know what Vice correspond to exactly, but it seems it corresponds more to a rural police functioning scheme. probably because that force has to serve both a metropolitan area, but also a huge wilderness area (on wiki they say the MDPD has a paramilitary structure). we can see in the series that it manages almost any crime type. from burglary to narcotics, from prostitution to weapon trafficking. so i think this is why they call it vice. it's a global (not necessarily official) term

Edited May 1, 2021 by jpaul1

[Robbie C.]

I think they used the term Miami Vice to distinguish it from one of the surrounding jurisdictions (Broward County for one). Quite often when you hear it in the earlier episodes Crockett will say it with a distinct pause between Miami and Vice. That vanishes later, and OCB was (I think) created to give the unit wider scope. Vice traditionally (at least in the US, and regardless of police force) deals with what were once called morals crimes (prostitution, gambling, and so on). Sometimes they deal with drugs, but often there's a specialized Narcotics units that covers that. Creating a fictionalized OCB let the producers widen the scope of what the unit would be involved with.

[ViceFanMan]

12 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

yep this is true for NY police force. the thing is the only 2 links i found regarding Miami police ranks said there wasn't detectives in the Miami force. one even putting on same level a police officer (lower rank) and detectives. which if it was proved to be true, would show that detective in this force don't equal the NY rank then. in NY police detective is a prestigious rank, it's the highest rank for rank policeman. above, it concerns people responsible of other policemen/women

yeah as i said Tubbs was sergeant in Florence Italy. so he probably began his Miami carreer as corporal, or sergeant. maybe as simple police officer at the beginning, who knows. it wouldn't had been illogical

i don't know what Vice correspond to exactly, but it seems it corresponds more to a rural police functioning scheme. probably because that force has to serve both a metropolitan area, but also a huge wilderness area (on wiki they say the MDPD has a paramilitary structure). we can see in the series that it manages almost any crime type. from burglary to narcotics, from prostitution to weapon trafficking. so i think this is why they call it vice. it's a global (not necessarily official) term

Watching “French Twist”...Crockett refers to himself as ‘Detective’ Sonny Crockett to Danielle when she first arrives at her hotel. So, on the show at least, I think they were considered detectives (like LAPD & NYPD). It may not have been a true rank in the real-life Miami/Metro-Dare police force back then...but again, the division names & a lot of what they got to do or participate in on the show weren’t real either.

Since most other cop/crime shows on TV at the time referred to their main cops as ‘detectives’, producers probably used that rank title as well. On the 80s cop show Hunter (started same year as MV...went to 91) Hunter & McCall were referred to as ‘Detective-Sergeants’. They were part of the LAPD, but maybe MV producers just went with that title too, as it was easy enough to understand for viewers—Crockett & Tubbs were above uniform or rookie officers, and investigated only certain kinds of crimes...but they weren’t as high up as Lieutenant or Captain. 

[Robbie C.]

There are always shadings within detective, which is more a job title than a rank. There are also administrative ranks, which may or may not have field duties. Detective is a position or job function, while administrative rank can be a different thing entirely.

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

There are always shadings within detective, which is more a job title than a rank. There are also administrative ranks, which may or may not have field duties. Detective is a position or job function, while administrative rank can be a different thing entirely.

Possibly...but usually with the title comes rank. Detective would probably be a certain ‘title’...but that title would entail a certain amount of rank over other titles or positions—such as a beat cop or rookie officer. Administrative titles and/or ranks would probably mostly require supervision, overseeing, office & paperwork duties...however, some field duties may still be required or happen—as in Castillo’s case, as once in a while he definitely participated in “field activities”. I’ve said this before: Castillo may seem like an office-dweller, but if he steps out from behind that desk...watch out!! 

[jpaul1]

yeah i think what is pretty confusing it's that detective can be used both as real rank, and a generic term too (a bit like investigator). and also ranks can differ from one city to another. here's a good link (from an university), i think the MDPD works more or less like that

https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/police-ranks/

i sent an email to the townhall, and asked them. i'll tell you if they send me an answer. If they don't i'll take my chance with the cops

[jpaul1]

Hi folks, the townhall forwarded my message to the MDPD who responded! here are the MDPD ranks:

Police Officer

Police Sergeant

Police Lieutenant

Police Captain

Police Commander

Police Major

Police Division Chief

Assistant Director

Deputy Director

Director

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, jpaul1 said:

Hi folks, the townhall forwarded my message to the MDPD who responded! here are the MDPD ranks:

Police Officer

Police Sergeant

Police Lieutenant

Police Captain

Police Commander

Police Major

Police Division Chief

Assistant Director

Deputy Director

Director

Good info! Interesting they have so many positions/ranks...it makes even Captain or Commander look pretty low on the totem pole.  

[jpaul1]

i don't want to hijack that thread but i don't know if this would require its own thread. still i think knowing Tubbs rank could be interesting to understand things like the Raphael death. just tell me if you're getting bored. here are few more infos i found:

Crockett is very likely sergeant since the beginning, as he's the main character. but tonight i've been watching the dutch oven and it seems (with a high degree of probability) that Tubbs, as well as Trudy were simple officers, as they show silver badges. i checked several scenes, on both DVD, and Blu-ray, and i'm pretty sure they were wearing silver badges

Crockett in Roberto Duran episode shows without any doubt he's sergeant

 

Trudy in dutch oven shows (with high probability) a silver badge

 

Tubbs in dutch oven shows a silver badge (high probability)

while in the same scene Crockett clearly shows a golden badge

 

also VFM in that same dutch oven we clearly see Crockett with a Vice badge. suggesting it's a division. don't know what to think about this though. it could be a fictional thing for the series. as Trudy doesn't have it. pretty weird

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by jpaul1

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

i don't want to hijack that thread but i don't know if this would require its own thread. still i think knowing Tubbs rank could be interesting to understand things like the Raphael death. just tell me if you're getting bored. here are few more infos i found:

Crockett is very likely sergeant since the beginning, as he's the main character. but tonight i've been watching the dutch oven and it seems (with a high degree of probability) that Tubbs, as well as Trudy were simple officers, as they show silver badges. i checked several scenes, on both DVD, and Blu-ray, and i'm pretty sure they were wearing silver badges

Crockett in Roberto Duran episode shows without any doubt he's sergeant

 

Trudy in dutch oven shows (with high probability) a silver badge

 

Tubbs in dutch oven shows a silver badge (high probability)

while in the same scene Crockett clearly shows a golden badge

 

also VFM in that same dutch oven we clearly see Crockett with a Vice badge. suggesting it's a division. don't know what to think about this though. it could be a fictional thing for the series. as Trudy doesn't have it. pretty weird

 

 

It’s all kind of interesting...but as much as I love MV, I don’t think they always went with “strict” reality. They may not have had the accurate badge every time, and just used whatever the prop department provided them with for that scene.  Tubbs has used a gold badge in a few episodes I’ve watched recently, so I figure he was promoted to a sergeant, as well, once he transferred to Miami and joined the Vice division. They wouldn’t have partnered Crockett with someone of less rank. 

[ViceFanMan]

This is from “Payback”, I think...watching it right now...love this episode!!