Episode #78 "Love At First Sight"

[Robbie C.]

16 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

I do think that Gina loved Sonny but not sure he thought the same. 

I agree, but I'm coming at it more from Sonny's perspective. Gina did tend to latch onto people she thought she could help, and Sonny fits that perfectly. I think he loved her as a friend but felt his salvation (if that's the right word) lay elsewhere. She represented what he wanted to escape from (or was burning out from), and that made it impossible.

[vicegirl85]

5 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I think people tend to overlook Gina's "fixing" impulse. Part of what doomed Crockett and Brenda was Brenda's desire to change him (as pointed out by Tubbs). And since they knew each other so well, Crockett would have known that about Gina, and also understood that she couldn't "fix" him any more than Caroline or Brenda could have. As for electricity...sorry, but I never saw it between those two. Attraction? Sure. Deep friendship? Ditto. What we now call "friends with benefits"? Again sure. But by getting involved with Gina Sonny would have been digging deeper into something that I think he knew was destroying him (undercover life in general). One of the constant themes of Vice was the cost of undercover work (something, interestingly, we see echoed in NCIS LA which was modeled after Vice), with Crockett usually used as the vehicle for that cost. 

I don't know that I ever picked up on a "fixing" impulse in Gina (not to say it wasn't there!).  I do think she saw Crockett clearly, with all of his good points as well as his faults.  And I think she would have gotten tired of taking second place (which I think would have happened) to the job.  I tend to agree with you about a lack of "electricity."  And I think that electricity was something Crockett needed, although many people would have been happy with attraction, deep friendship, and sexual chemistry (which I do think was there), trust and a bit more romantic love on one side than on the other.  I think Gina felt some "electricity" for him, more so than he felt for her.

Your statement that he knew Gina couldn't "fix" him and that he knew the work (that meant everything to him) was destroying him, is one that is intriguing to me.  Will have to mull over that one a bit. 

[Matt5]

On 3/29/2019 at 7:37 PM, vicegirl85 said:

I don't know that I ever picked up on a "fixing" impulse in Gina (not to say it wasn't there!).  I do think she saw Crockett clearly, with all of his good points as well as his faults.  And I think she would have gotten tired of taking second place (which I think would have happened) to the job.  I tend to agree with you about a lack of "electricity."  And I think that electricity was something Crockett needed, although many people would have been happy with attraction, deep friendship, and sexual chemistry (which I do think was there), trust and a bit more romantic love on one side than on the other.  I think Gina felt some "electricity" for him, more so than he felt for her.

Your statement that he knew Gina couldn't "fix" him and that he knew the work (that meant everything to him) was destroying him, is one that is intriguing to me.  Will have to mull over that one a bit. 

It sure would have been interesting to see the original first choice, Lorraine Bracco, in the role of Caitlin. She even filmed scenes in the last few weeks of October 1987.

I did also read Tina Turner was approached.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Matt5

[Robbie C.]

I think Tina Turner would have been awful, honestly. And if they stuck with the pop star plot line, I just don't think I could buy Lorraine Bracco. That's her in 1987.

[Dadrian]

Agreed about Tina, but that’s a very unflattering pic of LB. She is/was/always will be more attractive than that. Also, didn’t they say the episodes were originally written as an actress character for her? I think she was EJO’s girlfriend at the time. That could have been weird on the set for DJ/EJO haha. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Dadrian

[Robbie C.]

That might make sense, but the music aspect was at least topical for the times.

[Bren10]

The right choice was made in the end. Caitlyn getting blown away on stage during a concert is far more dramatic than what they would've done with Bracco's actress version.

 

[RedDragon86]

I don't know what exactly the episode would have been about, but as a one off episode in season 4 Lorraine Bracco would have been perfect as Gina's sister.

Edited April 1, 2019 by RedDragon86

[Dadrian]

11 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

The right choice was made in the end. Caitlyn getting blown away on stage during a concert is far more dramatic than what they would've done with Bracco's actress version.

 

Agreed. 

Even if they stuck with the singer story, they could have found an actress who sang better than Sheena Easton acted. 

[Robbie C.]

19 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

I don't know what exactly the episode would have been about, but as a one off episode in season 4 Lorraine Bracco would have been perfect as Gina's sister.

I agree. There's enough similarity in terms of looks.

And I don't share in the hate for Sheena's acting. I think she did fine...certainly better than James Brown or what little we saw of Julia Roberts. Even Michael Chicklas was pretty lame in his Vice debut.

[ViceFanMan]

I’ve said this before, but I don’t dislike or hate Caitlin...she was just too “rushed” and never right for Crockett.

There was all of it between Crockett and Gina...the proverbial “spark” almost every time they saw each other, the deep attraction (physically, emotionally, occupationally, etc...), there was trust, there was understanding. 

I do agree that Crockett was leery and even scared to take the serious-relationship plunge again, because of his and Caroline’s failed marriage. However, that does not change the fact that Sonny and Gina were soul-mates.

The ridiculously fast-paced relationship and subsequent marriage to Caitlin was an attempt to try and move past Gina (although there was still definite attraction & electricity with Gina during his “relationship” with Caitlin). But it didn’t work...even if poor Caitlin hadn’t been killed by Hackman, their marriage was already doomed. 

Gina didn’t want to “fix” Crockett...she was fine with him the way he was, as she was an undercover cop too. She knew the dangers, Hours, and chaos the job entailed. She wanted him to get over and past Caroline at first, but once he was, the idiot new writers decided not to pursue it. But whether it was scripted or not...DJ & Saundra (aka Sonny & Gina) still practically electrified a room with their attraction, almost every time they were together. Even if it was literally just a few minutes, the spark was definitely there! 

[RedDragon86]

On 4/1/2019 at 7:31 PM, Robbie C. said:

I agree. There's enough similarity in terms of looks.

And I don't share in the hate for Sheena's acting. I think she did fine...certainly better than James Brown or what little we saw of Julia Roberts. Even Michael Chicklas was pretty lame in his Vice debut.

 

On 4/1/2019 at 7:31 PM, Robbie C. said:

 

Her acting is unconvincing.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

9 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I’ve said this before, but I don’t dislike or hate Caitlin...she was just too “rushed” and never right for Crockett.

There was all of it between Crockett and Gina...the proverbial “spark” almost every time they saw each other, the deep attraction (physically, emotionally, occupationally, etc...), there was trust, there was understanding. 

I do agree that Crockett was leery and even scared to take the serious-relationship plunge again, because of his and Caroline’s failed marriage. However, that does not change the fact that Sonny and Gina were soul-mates.

The ridiculously fast-paced relationship and subsequent marriage to Caitlin was an attempt to try and move past Gina (although there was still definite attraction & electricity with Gina during his “relationship” with Caitlin). But it didn’t work...even if poor Caitlin hadn’t been killed by Hackman, their marriage was already doomed. 

Gina didn’t want to “fix” Crockett...she was fine with him the way he was, as she was an undercover cop too. She knew the dangers, Hours, and chaos the job entailed. She wanted him to get over and past Caroline at first, but once he was, the idiot new writers decided not to pursue it. But whether it was scripted or not...DJ & Saundra (aka Sonny & Gina) still practically electrified a room with their attraction, almost every time they were together. Even if it was literally just a few minutes, the spark was definitely there! 

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I think. I never saw the spark and never felt that Gina lined up at all with the arc they were developing with Crockett during the progression of the show. What I saw was Crockett rebounding with Gina a couple of times, trying to move on with various other women, and then moving beyond Gina and deciding (correctly or incorrectly) his only hope was someone completely outside his undercover circle. I don't think they were soulmates any more than Crockett and Caroline were. Frankly, given Crockett's split nature between himself and Burnett I don't think he could have a soulmate until he decided which soul was really his. Where you see a soulmate I see a relic from Crockett's past...a reminder of what he was with no glimpse of what he could be.

[Bren10]

Caitlyn never being "right" for Crockett I think was part of the point. He was throwing caution to the wind and making one last grasp at a serious relationship.  It was almost another Brenda situation with yet another woman beyond his social class and neither one recognizing what it was going to take to build for a future together. I find it telling that when Brenda actually did broach the subject of where their future was going, Sonny got angry and stormed off. Sonny, as Robbie C said, lives very much in the now and wants those feelings and circumstances to persist. And he gets flustered and frustrated when they don't. That is a strength and a weakness of his. While undercover, he must be very much in the moment and be aware of everything around him. That has kept him alive. But in personal relationships one has to go beyond the initial passion of the moment to make it work long-term. This is where Sonny fails.

[ViceFanMan]

29 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I think. I never saw the spark and never felt that Gina lined up at all with the arc they were developing with Crockett during the progression of the show. What I saw was Crockett rebounding with Gina a couple of times, trying to move on with various other women, and then moving beyond Gina and deciding (correctly or incorrectly) his only hope was someone completely outside his undercover circle. I don't think they were soulmates any more than Crockett and Caroline were. Frankly, given Crockett's split nature between himself and Burnett I don't think he could have a soulmate until he decided which soul was really his. Where you see a soulmate I see a relic from Crockett's past...a reminder of what he was with no glimpse of what he could be.

We will probably agree to disagree...whether you like or dislike the character of Gina, you can’t deny the spark and attraction always there—unless you, for whatever reason/s, don’t want it to be there and pretend it’s not. 

Crockett tried relationships/marriages with other women, but they never worked out...including Caitlin (even before she was killed). Although the job & undercover aspect usually were a couple of the main problems with the other women/wives...the reason Gina was “above” them is because of what I stated before—she was an undercover cop too, and understood it all. She understood & accepted it.

The job wasn’t really the problem with their relationship. Again, it was the stupidity of the writers...whether planned or not, the spark & attraction was always there—it never left or faded away. Like it or not, they were soul-mates! 

Edited April 1, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[Bren10]

I agree Gina didn't want to fix Sonny, but I also don't think they were soulmates or even truly in love in the classic sense. Instead I see them as a deep, intense "friends with benefits" situation. Their relationship is very much based on their empathy for one another over the job. She can truly understand Sonny because she does what he does. Again, that's great for the moment, but it's not a great basis for a long-term relationship.What happens when the job goes away, as we know it will for at least one of them? That removes the entire foundation of their romance. There is a deep bond and caring, but it isn't the romantic, marrying type love imo. As far as the writers are concerned, I don't think having Sonny and Gina as a consistent item would've worked. Because of the job, and because of the structure of the show itself (episodic) I think it's important to keep the character of Crockett open. Locking him down in a relationship for too long limits his possibilities. That's one of the reasons Caitlyn had to go.

[ViceFanMan]

42 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

I agree Gina didn't want to fix Sonny, but I also don't think they were soulmates or even truly in love in the classic sense. Instead I see them as a deep, intense "friends with benefits" situation. Their relationship is very much based on their empathy for one another over the job. She can truly understand Sonny because she does what he does. Again, that's great for the moment, but it's not a great basis for a long-term relationship.What happens when the job goes away, as we know it will for at least one of them? That removes the entire foundation of their romance. There is a deep bond and caring, but it isn't the romantic, marrying type love imo. As far as the writers are concerned, I don't think having Sonny and Gina as a consistent item would've worked. Because of the job, and because of the structure of the show itself (episodic) I think it's important to keep the character of Crockett open. Locking him down in a relationship for too long limits his possibilities. That's one of the reasons Caitlyn had to go.

I agree with a lot of what you said and interesting points, but there was still more to Crockett and Gina. I actually think they tried to make their relationship a “friends with benefits” one...and that didn’t work! There was already too much there. 

I still think they were meant to be together, and there was true love and trust there—not just physical attraction. From a show standpoint I agree they couldn’t get married right in the middle...this wasn’t “Scarecrow & Mrs. King”.  But at the end of the show, they should have ended up together. 

[mjcmmv]

23 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree with a lot of what you said and interesting points, but there was still more to Crockett and Gina. I actually think they tried to make their relationship a “friends with benefits” one...and that didn’t work! There was already too much there. 

I still think they were meant to be together, and there was true love and trust there—not just physical attraction. From a show standpoint I agree they couldn’t get married right in the middle...this wasn’t “Scarecrow & Mrs. King”.  But at the end of the show, they should have ended up together. 

I agree with you but unfortunately, the writers didn't!  Season 5 completely dropped the ball on rebuilding a Sonny-Gina relationship. We barely saw Gina, or Trudy interacting with Crockett and Tubbs!  It might have helped the ratings a little if the writers remembered the female part of the team that helped make the series successful!  

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

We will probably agree to disagree...whether you like or dislike the character of Gina, you can’t deny the spark and attraction always there—unless you, for whatever reason/s, don’t want it to be there and pretend it’s not. 

Crockett tried relationships/marriages with other women, but they never worked out...including Caitlin (even before she was killed). Although the job & undercover aspect usually were a couple of the main problems with the other women/wives...the reason Gina was “above” them is because of what I stated before—she was an undercover cop too, and understood it all. She understood & accepted it.

The job wasn’t really the problem with their relationship. Again, it was the stupidity of the writers...whether planned or not, the spark & attraction was always there—it never left or faded away. Like it or not, they were soul-mates! 

You see a spark, I don't. That doesn't mean I'm pretending there isn't one any more than it means you're pretending there is. Bren10 makes good points about the Gina/Sonny thing being a dead end as far as plots go, and I tend to agree with him. I saw a better connection between Crockett and Trudy, honesty, but again that kind of relationship is going to box Crockett in. 

[ViceFanMan]

24 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

I agree with you but unfortunately, the writers didn't!  Season 5 completely dropped the ball on rebuilding a Sonny-Gina relationship. We barely saw Gina, or Trudy interacting with Crockett and Tubbs!  It might have helped the ratings a little if the writers remembered the female part of the team that helped make the series successful!  

Exactly! There was definitely a spark and relationship with Crockett and Gina, and that was part of the “sizzle” & what made the show successful at the beginning. Things started to slowly go down hill once the writers screwed up Sonny and Gina. Hmm...   They should have had them finally get together at the end. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[vicegirl85]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

(snipped)I never saw the spark and never felt that Gina lined up at all with the arc they were developing with Crockett during the progression of the show. What I saw was Crockett rebounding with Gina a couple of times, trying to move on with various other women, and then moving beyond Gina and deciding (correctly or incorrectly) his only hope was someone completely outside his undercover circle. I don't think they were soulmates any more than Crockett and Caroline were. Frankly, given Crockett's split nature between himself and Burnett I don't think he could have a soulmate until he decided which soul was really his. Where you see a soulmate I see a relic from Crockett's past...a reminder of what he was with no glimpse of what he could be.

I agree that being with Gina didn't line up with the character arc developed for Crockett over the course of the show.  I'll always wonder if that was planned from the start of if it was something that happened somewhat accidentally, due to the merry-go-round of writers and directors over the five years of MV.  I did feel there was a spark between them, although more on Gina's part (perhaps because Crockett wouldn't allow himself to act on the spark after a certain point). 

2 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

(snipped)whether you like or dislike the character of Gina, you can’t deny the spark and attraction always there—unless you, for whatever reason/s, don’t want it to be there and pretend it’s not. 

Crockett tried relationships/marriages with other women, but they never worked out...including Caitlin (even before she was killed). Although the job & undercover aspect usually were a couple of the main problems with the other women/wives...the reason Gina was “above” them is because of what I stated before—she was an undercover cop too, and understood it all. She understood & accepted it.

The job wasn’t really the problem with their relationship. Again, it was the stupidity of the writers...whether planned or not, the spark & attraction was always there—it never left or faded away. Like it or not, they were soul-mates! 

I don't know... I wanted them to get back together and I certainly felt the potential was there for them to have a real relationship.  Crockett was the one who stopped the romantic progress, IMO, because he feared ruining another relationship.  I can't put all of it on the writers.  Robbie C. and Bren 10 have raised some great points about Crockett's character development.  Again, was all of this purposefully done by the writers?  Or was some of it accidental/coincidental?  At some point, someone was controlling the strings of the Crockett character and keeping him and Gina as friends/friends with benefits (fewer and fewer "benefits" as the show continued) instead of developing the soul-mate potential did fit with Robbie C.'s theory.  I think Gina was always willing to take Crockett back; she felt a strong spark and she was willing to act on it and take the chance--she thought she could control the situation and her reactions, just as she thought when she got in too deep in some of her undercover roles.  I doubt if Sonny and Gina could have maintained a relationship over the long term because of what Bren 10 says below:  

3 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Caitlyn never being "right" for Crockett I think was part of the point. He was throwing caution to the wind and making one last grasp at a serious relationship.  It was almost another Brenda situation with yet another woman beyond his social class and neither one recognizing what it was going to take to build for a future together. I find it telling that when Brenda actually did broach the subject of where their future was going, Sonny got angry and stormed off. Sonny, as Robbie C said, lives very much in the now and wants those feelings and circumstances to persist. And he gets flustered and frustrated when they don't. That is a strength and a weakness of his. While undercover, he must be very much in the moment and be aware of everything around him. That has kept him alive. But in personal relationships one has to go beyond the initial passion of the moment to make it work long-term. This is where Sonny fails.

What a great explanation and comparison!  Yes, Sonny and Gina were in the same line of work and they understood what that entailed.  But I feel Sonny would never really be able to make a long-term relationship/marriage a primary commitment.  At least not as long as he stayed in undercover work.

[Robbie C.]

It could also be, too, that as Sonny started to realize what undercover work was doing to him he didn't want to see it happen to Gina as well. With Caitlin he could actually afford to get out, since she made more than he did. By that point I think part of him really DID want to get out, and Caitlin was a perfect vehicle for that. Gina? They'd both still have to work, staying in the life Crockett might have felt was starting to destroy him. And Sonny was never good at long-term planning. That was fairly clear from the beginning and seemed to get worse as the show went on.

Given the holes in Sonny's background and other issues, I do think his character arc was in some ways determined by Mann at some point during the first season and just kept guiding development through the various show handlers and writers. Character development isn't one of Wolf's priorities in any case, so he wouldn't have been inclined to do much with Sonny. I can easily see Yerkovich taking the Sonny-Gina arc in the direction we see early in the first season, but after his influence waned I think it just died a slow death.

[ViceFanMan]

14 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree that being with Gina didn't line up with the character arc developed for Crockett over the course of the show.  I'll always wonder if that was planned from the start of if it was something that happened somewhat accidentally, due to the merry-go-round of writers and directors over the five years of MV.  I did feel there was a spark between them, although more on Gina's part (perhaps because Crockett wouldn't allow himself to act on the spark after a certain point). 

I don't know... I wanted them to get back together and I certainly felt the potential was there for them to have a real relationship.  Crockett was the one who stopped the romantic progress, IMO, because he feared ruining another relationship.  I can't put all of it on the writers.  Robbie C. and Bren 10 have raised some great points about Crockett's character development.  Again, was all of this purposefully done by the writers?  Or was some of it accidental/coincidental?  At some point, someone was controlling the strings of the Crockett character and keeping him and Gina as friends/friends with benefits (fewer and fewer "benefits" as the show continued) instead of developing the soul-mate potential did fit with Robbie C.'s theory.  I think Gina was always willing to take Crockett back; she felt a strong spark and she was willing to act on it and take the chance--she thought she could control the situation and her reactions, just as she thought when she got in too deep in some of her undercover roles.  I doubt if Sonny and Gina could have maintained a relationship over the long term because of what Bren 10 says below:  

What a great explanation and comparison!  Yes, Sonny and Gina were in the same line of work and they understood what that entailed.  But I feel Sonny would never really be able to make a long-term relationship/marriage a primary commitment.  At least not as long as he stayed in undercover work.

According to what I have read & heard that the main reason Sonny and Gina did not stay together was mainly because of new writers. Character wise I agree that Crockett was the one who couldn’t commit to a serious relationship, especially at first, because of his first failed marriage and the job. 

But, again there was always the relationship between Crockett and Gina...it was more than just physical attraction. Over the years and time I think Sonny grew-up, and was ready for a more serious relationship...but took it way too fast and with the wrong woman. 

At the end of the show, since they were having Crockett leave the unit anyway,  both he and Gina would have been able to make it work—they should have had them get together finally, and leave to start fresh. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[Bren10]

I don't see Gina leaving the force to be with (an unemployed) Crockett, nor do I see Crockett leading a 9 to 5 workaday domestic existence and waiting on Gina at home while she's on the very job that he walked away from. There's way too many unesolved issues there. I said before that the only way they work out post-Freefall is if they both are off the force and doing something else. But once again, that would change the entire dynamic of what brought them together in the first place so I don't give that a lot of hope. I'm also not sure that a Vice-less Crockett is someone you would want to live with. I see him getting bored quite easily which could easily turn to bitterness. He is someone who is often in love with his angst (very Mann-ish). As much as he gripes about the job, it is the heightened experience of his life. Caroline was right about that with him. If you remove him from that atmosphere, he is going to have SERIOUS problems adjusting to another way of life. I see much more hope with Tubbs who was an interloper to begin with, thus he would have less of a problem leaving Miami and doing something else. Plus Tubbs accomplished what he came to Miami to do all the way back in season 1 and he got rid of Orlando Calderone as well (nevermind the kid, as far as Tubbs knows he died in the explosion, so as far as he's concerned that part of his life is over).

[ViceFanMan]

12 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

I don't see Gina leaving the force to be with (an unemployed) Crockett, nor do I see Crockett leading a 9 to 5 workaday domestic existence and waiting on Gina at home while she's on the very job that he walked away from. There's way too many unesolved issues there. I said before that the only way they work out post-Freefall is if they both are off the force and doing something else. But once again, that would change the entire dynamic of what brought them together in the first place so I don't give that a lot of hope. I'm also not sure that a Vice-less Crockett is someone you would want to live with. I see him getting bored quite easily which could easily turn to bitterness. He is someone who is often in love with his angst (very Mann-ish). As much as he gripes about the job, it is the heightened experience of his life. Caroline was right about that with him. If you remove him from that atmosphere, he is going to have SERIOUS problems adjusting to another way of life. I see much more hope with Tubbs who was an interloper to begin with, thus he would have less of a problem leaving Miami and doing something else. Plus Tubbs accomplished what he came to Miami to do all the way back in season 1 and he got rid of Orlando Calderone as well (nevermind the kid, as far as Tubbs knows he died in the explosion, so as far as he's concerned that part of his life is over).

I don’t believe Crockett would have stayed unemployed very long...he’d have done something, probably or possibly still a cop of some kind, just not as crazy and dangerous as an undercover vice cop. 

 Early on I do think Crockett liked the action of being undercover, Caroline was right...then. But, as time went on things changed—Sonny realized he needed to change and be more available & spend time with Billy. He needed to be more responsible and be there for family. He was older & wiser.

I think he was ready to make a change, but again with a woman he barely knew (Caitlin). Trying to stay with the unit was turning toxic, and I think at the end of the show, Crockett and Gina could have left Miami together and still worked in law enforcement in some capacity, and made it work. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by ViceFanMan