Episode #78 "Love At First Sight"

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, Bren10 said:

You have to take into account one of the ways Sonny stays alive is not discussing every little thing. That's the routine that has sustained him and he isn't used to other people getting involved. He also wants to compartmentalize his life with his personal life on one side and the job on the other. That's his version of not bringing his work home with him and letting it interfere with relationships. The last thing he wants to talk about with his wife after 8-plus hours when he gets home is all the horrendous stuff he's been immersed in. 

I agree with this so much!  I also think this was a big reason why his marriage to Caroline failed, and why, really, he wasn't likely to be able to form a lasting relationship with a woman (unless he made a radical change in his personality and/or left the Job).

Edited July 28, 2020 by vicegirl85

[vicegirl85]

3 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Sonny and Gina made themselves available to each other and occupied a certain space in each other's lives, but it was never the kind of courtship that was going to lead to something bigger or permanent, in my opinion. I think Gina suddenly felt threatened and marginalized by Brenda in a kneejerk way and attacking Sonny for finding something with potential outside of work I think was a cheap shot. Sonny's right when he says "That's not fair" because she's the one who isn't abiding by their unspoken agreement. What if the shoe was on the other foot? Notice the how differently Gina reacts to Caitlyn as opposed to Brenda.

I agree their relationship was consensual, and that both of them enjoyed occupying "a certain space in each other's lives."  I also think Sonny was not looking for anything permanent or another commitment.  However, (and I could be wrong!) in my view, Gina hoped for more--at some point, after Sonny quit bouncing from the rebound of his divorce.  For me, that was the reason she forgot her pride and confronted him about Brenda.  No, it wasn't really "fair", but I don't think it was a cheap shot.  She should have never lowered herself to force the point, but she had to know.  From Gina's POV, she had been cherishing a hope that she and Sonny had a future together, and his acknowledgement of the state of his relationship with Brenda showed Gina that her dreams were misplaced.

I do think Gina was hurt when Sonny told her he and Caitlin were getting married.  The look on her face, and when she said "What difference does it make... now?" told me she had never truly admitted to herself that they didn't have a future together.  However, by this time, she had gotten to know him better (and perhaps to know herself better as well) and had matured.  She found room for generosity in her heart and wished him well.  Maybe no one else agrees, but I always found it rather entertaining that Gina got up the idea of the squad paying for a honeymoon trip to New Zealand... somewhere on the other side of the international date line, where she wouldn't be able to calculate the hour of the day and what Sonny and Caitlin might be doing...

[ViceFanMan]

7 hours ago, AndrewRemington said:

This a great episode. One of my favorites I’ve watched many times. It definitely fits the thriller/horror genre. As mentioned before, I think “Psycho” was an influence, but instead of a son portraying his mother, it’s a woman portraying a made-up brother. Very odd.

Going back to the episode...I can’t remember, was her “brother” she dressed up as, ever real, or did she create him for whatever reason? Norman Bates’ mother had been real, in Psycho, so just curious? 

[vicegirl85]

I don't believe it's possible to determine that from the information provided in the episode.

My impression was that the brother was a total fabrication.  We don't really learn why she was going after men who fit Crockett's dating profile and appearance, as far as i can recall.

[Robbie C.]

I have yet to be convinced that Sonny and Gina were anything more than a crutch for some plot elements. For Sonny to survive he needed to move on, and that would never happen with Gina. No matter how much some might want it to. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Robbie C.

[vicegirl85]

3 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

In the words of Crockett, “Good luck with that, pal.”

?

[Robbie C.]

Just now, vicegirl85 said:

?

Edited that out. The joys of replying to posts on a phone. In the immortal words of South Park Nothing to see here.  

[vicegirl85]

LOL, I know the feeling...

To be honest, as much as I wanted it to happen with Sonny and Gina, you're probably right that they had no future together...

Edited July 29, 2020 by vicegirl85

[ViceFanMan]

8 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I don't believe it's possible to determine that from the information provided in the episode.

My impression was that the brother was a total fabrication.  We don't really learn why she was going after men who fit Crockett's dating profile and appearance, as far as i can recall.

I kind of got the impression the “brother” was a fabrication in her mind, too...like she wanted an over-protective male figure to watch over her, didn’t have one in reality, so created one in her mind. I think she was attracted to men who looked like Crockett, and (like Psycho) the other half of her mind would go into a jealous rage. 

[ViceFanMan]

3 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

LOL, I know the feeling...

To be honest, as much as I wanted it to happen with Sonny and Gina, you're probably right...

Even if I didn’t like the character of Gina (she was probably my 2nd favorite character), I couldn’t deny the spark and true love between Crockett and her. It’s there, whether some want it , or like it, or not. To say there’s nothing to see there is purposely ignoring it. 

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

Even if I didn’t like the character of Gina (she was probably my 2nd favorite character), I couldn’t deny the spark and true love between Crockett and her. It’s there, whether some want it , or like it, or not. To say there’s nothing to see there is purposely ignoring it. 

Just because you desperately want to see it doesn't mean it's there. There was chemistry written in (obviously intentionally) by Yerkovich in the pilot (which is natural, considering he came from Hill Street Blues where an office romance of a sort did take place between two lead characters and ended in marriage), but as his influence faded so did the chemistry. At least on Crockett's side. Gina may have carried the proverbial torch for a time (and it flickered back to life on more than one occasion), but it's clear to anyone who pays attention to the characters that Sonny had moved on. There was no 'true love.' Possibly there might have been a relationship had Yerkovich's writing influence remained, but it didn't. That's what happens when you have two competing visions for a show. Mann's won, so we got stunning visuals and skimpy character development in many areas. But whatever gets you through the night, I suppose...

This isn't a bad episode, and it does show the tension between Caitlin and Sonny very well. As Bren and I have pointed out, it's mostly due to the Job and hints at a decision Sonny would have to make. But one of his bad prior choices catches up with him and Hackman makes the decision for him.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Robbie C. said:

Just because you desperately want to see it doesn't mean it's there. There was chemistry written in (obviously intentionally) by Yerkovich in the pilot (which is natural, considering he came from Hill Street Blues where an office romance of a sort did take place between two lead characters and ended in marriage), but as his influence faded so did the chemistry. At least on Crockett's side. Gina may have carried the proverbial torch for a time (and it flickered back to life on more than one occasion), but it's clear to anyone who pays attention to the characters that Sonny had moved on. There was no 'true love.' Possibly there might have been a relationship had Yerkovich's writing influence remained, but it didn't. That's what happens when you have two competing visions for a show. Mann's won, so we got stunning visuals and skimpy character development in many areas. But whatever gets you through the night, I suppose...

This isn't a bad episode, and it does show the tension between Caitlin and Sonny very well. As Bren and I have pointed out, it's mostly due to the Job and hints at a decision Sonny would have to make. But one of his bad prior choices catches up with him and Hackman makes the decision for him.

 I actually agree with most of this, except the part about Sonny no longer having any true feelings for Gina. I’m sorry, but even if I didn’t want it to be there, you can’t deny it (you can try but it’s pretending it’s not)! 

I don’t necessarily “desperately” want their relationship to be there, although I’m not against it (their interactions, looks/eye contact, etc...were not faky & forced—like Brenda, the other druggie girl besides Theresa, & Caitlin), but like it or not the spark & relationship (beyond just sex) was there for both of them. Whether it was purposely done (by writers), or just natural chemistry between the ‘characters’ when they interacted, it was there till practically the end. 

This was a very good episode, as the plot was wild-bizarre creepy...but it also realistically showed that Crockett & Caitlin had made a mistake, and even though they still ‘cared’ for each other, their marriage was crumbling & done. And sadly, yes one of Crockett’s earlier mistakes does come back to ‘haunt’ him, as Hackman kills her before anything else can be decided or done. 

[Mr. Vigilante]

I thought the exchanges between Caitlyn and Sonny were written very well.  This is coming from prior law enforcement experience.  Granted, I never worked undercover, and I never watched MV for its realistic portrayal of police work, but this seemed fairly accurate.  As selfish as it is, most cops bottle everything inside, not sharing anything with anyone, even their closest family/friends.  Getting agitated and avoiding the topic is a common defense.  I thought DJ did a great job showing that.

I enjoy this episode the more I've watched it.  Season 4 gets a lot of flak, but it's mainly for a handful of episodes.  Those episodes deserve the flak they get, but overall there's some really good stuff throughout.  This episode being one of those.

[ViceFanMan]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Vigilante said:

I thought the exchanges between Caitlyn and Sonny were written very well.  This is coming from prior law enforcement experience.  Granted, I never worked undercover, and I never watched MV for its realistic portrayal of police work, but this seemed fairly accurate.  As selfish as it is, most cops bottle everything inside, not sharing anything with anyone, even their closest family/friends.  Getting agitated and avoiding the topic is a common defense.  I thought DJ did a great job showing that.

I enjoy this episode the more I've watched it.  Season 4 gets a lot of flak, but it's mainly for a handful of episodes.  Those episodes deserve the flak they get, but overall there's some really good stuff throughout.  This episode being one of those.

I agree, that Crockett’s aspect of “bottling” everything up & finding it hard to open up or share with others, was realistically written. I work in the mental health field and find that to be the case with a lot of males (sometimes myself included ) & not just cops. 

The last couple seasons get a lot of flak, and rightfully so with certain episodes and/or storylines. But, I agree there are still ‘gems’ to be enjoyed & some great episodes as well—and this is one! 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ViceFanMan

[vicegirl85]

57 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

This was a very good episode, as the plot was wild-bizarre creepy...but it also realistically showed that Crockett & Caitlin had made a mistake, and even though they still ‘cared’ for each other, their marriage was crumbling & done. 

I don't know about that... Yes, I felt there was potential for Sonny and Gina, although it never came to fruition (mainly because he decided not to go down that path).  I don't know that it would have worked in the long run, because of the survival tactics Sonny needed as long as he stayed on the job--and I don't know that he could have changed even if he wanted to, which I saw no evidence that he did want to change.  I also agree with you that Sonny and Caitlin's relationship and marriage was rushed and pushed the boundaries of believability. 

But I did not feel that this episode proved they had made a mistake and that their marriage was crumbling.  I think this case gave both of them a wake-up call, and they saw that the path would be rougher than they had expected.  However, at this point I felt Sonny and Caitlin were still in love and motivated to try to make it work.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I don't know about that... Yes, I felt there was potential for Sonny and Gina, although it never came to fruition (mainly because he decided not to go down that path).  I don't know that it would have worked in the long run, because of the survival tactics Sonny needed as long as he stayed on the job--and I don't know that he could have changed even if he wanted to, which I saw no evidence that he did want to change.  I also agree with you that Sonny and Caitlin's relationship and marriage was rushed and pushed the boundaries of believability. 

But I did not feel that this episode proved they had made a mistake and that their marriage was crumbling.  I think this case gave both of them a wake-up call, and they saw that the path would be rougher than they had expected.  However, at this point I felt Sonny and Caitlin were still in love and motivated to try to make it work.

I have to disagree with some of this...I’m not sure it was portrayed that Crockett decided to not stay with Gina. They supposedly just faded away (although the new writers were the real cause), but like it or not the spark & relationship never went away...again, whether it was intentional or not, it was always still there.

Crockett and Caitlin rushed into marriage with infatuation and a fairytale “idea” of what they thought they wanted. But, ultimately when reality hit home they discovered it was crumbling and not what they thought. By all means I think it was shown they still cared for each other and were trying to figure out a way to make it work... but their careers were never going to allow it. The marriage was crumbling & falling apart. It was done. I think if she’d of lived Crockett would’ve tried to stay with Caitlin  longer because of the baby. But somewhere down the line, ultimately they still would’ve divorced. It just was never going to work. 

Any marriage with Crockett as long as he had that job, was probably always going to be somewhat strained and have problems. But ultimately because she totally understood the job and did it herself, I still say Crockett and Gina would’ve been the best bet—in MV world. In reality, writers decided that one. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ViceFanMan

[AndrewRemington]

I agree with the most of you that Sonny and Gina would have been a great couple as well. I don’t know why they didn’t pursue that... If they had we probably wouldn’t have the great Sonny romance episodes like “Nobody Lives Forever”, “Theresa”, “By Hooker By Crook” and the Caitlin/Burnett saga. If there was no Caitlin would there be no Burnett trilogy? Probably? I guess he still could have become Burnett after the boat explosion incident by itself.

[Tom]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb AndrewRemington:

I agree with the most of you that Sonny and Gina would have been a great couple as well. I don’t know why they didn’t pursue that... If they had we probably wouldn’t have the great Sonny romance episodes like “Nobody Lives Forever”, “Theresa”, “By Hooker By Crook” and the Caitlin/Burnett saga. If there was no Caitlin would there be no Burnett trilogy? Probably? I guess he still could have become Burnett after the boat explosion incident by itself.

I think they did the right thing not to bring Gina and Sonny together officially and they also kinda “explained” their relationship. In Nobody lives forever we learnt from a conversation Brenda-Crockett that Crockett “warned” Brenda upfront that he and Gina had a special bond and sometimes that also involved sex but it was clear from this dialogue that Crockett deemed it as a special “best friend” bond that would step back once either of them was in a relationship. Crockett was married at the beginning and both had love interest over the years in several episodes but all of them were job related not with someone they had met in their private lives. I think given all these circumstances a persistent Gina-Crockett relationship or marriage would have been to kitschy and unrealistic....

MV was not good in deep relationship explainations or its continuity (also think about Crockett & Caitlin agreeing to meet in three weeks in NYC and never following up with this until her death in Miami). In Like a hurricane Crockett somehow felt obliged to tell Gina first about his marriage with Caitlin (after not touching their relationship for 60+ episodes) and Gina responded something like “Thanks but why would I bother now?”

[RedDragon86]

Caitlin and Sonny was the least believable love story because it helps if you are a convincing actress and she wasn't, just as bad as Megan Fox. I mean how can you display chemistry and love when one is a poor actor? what gives her away is the fact that she is aware of camera, she struggles from scene to scene.

People criticize Sonny's amnesia, the wedding part was the most unrealistic stage of the series. She was nothing more than a plot device.

Edited October 6, 2020 by RedDragon86

[AndrewRemington]

10 minutes ago, Tom said:

I think they did the right thing not to bring Gina and Sonny together officially and they also kinda “explained” their relationship. In Nobody lives forever we learnt from a conversation Brenda-Crockett that Crockett “warned” Brenda upfront that he and Gina had a special bond and sometimes that also involved sex but it was clear from this dialogue that Crockett deemed it as a special “best friend” bond that would step back once either of them was in a relationship. Crockett was married at the beginning and both had love interest over the years in several episodes but all of them were job related not with someone they had met in their private lives. I think given all these circumstances a persistent Gina-Crockett relationship or marriage would have been to kitschy and unrealistic....

MV was not good in deep relationship explainations or its continuity (also think about Crockett & Caitlin agreeing to meet in three weeks in NYC and never following up with this until her death in Miami). In Like a hurricane Crockett somehow felt obliged to tell Gina first about his marriage with Caitlin (after not touching their relationship for 60+ episodes) and Gina responded something like “Thanks but why would I bother now?”

Good points. I think the overall dark/bleak tone of the series wouldn’t suit a long-lasting relationship or marriage. MV wasn’t about happy endings very often.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, AndrewRemington said:

I agree with the most of you that Sonny and Gina would have been a great couple as well. I don’t know why they didn’t pursue that... If they had we probably wouldn’t have the great Sonny romance episodes like “Nobody Lives Forever”, “Theresa”, “By Hooker By Crook” and the Caitlin/Burnett saga. If there was no Caitlin would there be no Burnett trilogy? Probably? I guess he still could have become Burnett after the boat explosion incident by itself.

 Sonny and Gina ultimately, at least by the end of the show, could have and should have made a great couple to end the show with. But ultimately a change in writers and producers screwed that over.  The only reason for Sonny and Caitlin, was for a ratings attempt by writers and producers at the time. It was forced, rushed, and fake, and you could tell. 

[AndrewRemington]

12 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

Caitlin and Sonny was the least believable love story because it helps if you area convincing actress and she wasn't, just as bad as Megan Fox. I mean how can you display chemistry and love when one is a poor actor? what gives her away is the fact that she is aware of camera, she struggles from scene to scene.

People criticize Sonny's amnesia, the wedding part was the most unrealistic stage of the series. She was nothing more than a plot device.

 

4 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

 Sonny and Gina ultimately, at least by the end of the show, could have and should have made a great couple to end the show with. But ultimately a change in writers and producers screwed that over.  The only reason for Sonny and Caitlin, was for a ratings attempt by writers and producers at the time. It was forced, rushed, and fake, and you could tell. 

Agree to disagree with both you.  However, I’ve never had a problem with Crockett’s amnesia. I’m a huge Burnett fan. I guess Sonny and Gina could have ended up together in the final episode! 

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, AndrewRemington said:

Agree to disagree with both you.  However, I’ve never had a problem with Crockett’s amnesia. I’m a huge Burnett fan. I guess Sonny and Gina could have ended up together in the final episode! 

Lol, it’s cool! Although I didn’t have a problem with Crockett’s undercover role as Burnett in general, per-say, I did not like the whole 4-part (I still say 3-part) Burnett-saga with the amnesia & losing his mind. It was too over-the-top & ridiculous (my opinion) for MV & it was destructive for the character of Crockett after that. 

[Robbie C.]

20 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

But I did not feel that this episode proved they had made a mistake and that their marriage was crumbling.  I think this case gave both of them a wake-up call, and they saw that the path would be rougher than they had expected.  However, at this point I felt Sonny and Caitlin were still in love and motivated to try to make it work.

Very much this. It was the foundation for my short story Homebodies. Crockett knew where he was headed. He'd seen it enough times in the first season alone (Heart of Darkness and Evan, anyone?). And given how he fell apart once Hackman killed Caitlin, anyone who claims he didn't love her has some serious personal issues to work through.

Sonny had a history of rushing into things and not considering all the complications that might arise from his actions. Although I don't believe the timeline is as compressed as many seem to, I don't have a huge issue with the pace of the courtship. It's just a shame they didn't follow this one up with another similar episode or something  like Tom mentions, but I suspect it came down to Sheena's availability. She wasn't a fixed character, so they couldn't get her for just any episode they wanted. The reality of TV. For those who watch NCIS LA, that was the main reason they killed LL Cool J's character's wife according to Frank Military. She wasn't a regular, so they couldn't use the character as often as they wanted.

[ViceFanMan]

I think Sheena Easton was only hired for a few episodes to begin with...I don’t believe she was ever hired to be or even considered as a regular or main character. Again, her character of Caitlin was only brought in by writers/producers to try and regain some ratings/viewers. As I’ve stated before, it was ridiculously rushed, “forced”, and fake...and you could tell. But I think her demise was always the plan. 

Crockett and Caitlin still cared for each other (at least they tried to portray that in her few episodes), but their marriage just didn’t seem real or ‘alive’ anymore...even in this episode (LAFS), it was failing & falling apart. Their careers were never going to let the marriage work, and ‘they’ systematically were destroying whatever infatuation had originally been there between them.

However, as much as I thought Crockett and Caitlin‘s marriage was ridiculous, I actually found their whole storyline interesting—as it realistically showed the consequences of what happens when you rush into a marriage, and you hardly really know someone and what they are really like or what they do.