Episode #78 "Love At First Sight"

[mjcmmv]

On 4/1/2019 at 6:42 PM, Robbie C. said:

It could also be, too, that as Sonny started to realize what undercover work was doing to him he didn't want to see it happen to Gina as well. With Caitlin he could actually afford to get out, since she made more than he did. By that point I think part of him really DID want to get out, and Caitlin was a perfect vehicle for that. Gina? They'd both still have to work, staying in the life Crockett might have felt was starting to destroy him. And Sonny was never good at long-term planning. That was fairly clear from the beginning and seemed to get worse as the show went on.

Given the holes in Sonny's background and other issues, I do think his character arc was in some ways determined by Mann at some point during the first season and just kept guiding development through the various show handlers and writers. Character development isn't one of Wolf's priorities in any case, so he wouldn't have been inclined to do much with Sonny. I can easily see Yerkovich taking the Sonny-Gina arc in the direction we see early in the first season, but after his influence waned I think it just died a slow death.

I respect your analysis on this-you have such great insight, Robbie.

But deep down, I feel the Sonny Crockett they were trying to portray in this show was really a selfish guy who didn't particularly care if he hurt the women he dated/loved/craved...or not. And I accepted that. Sonny Crockett was a complex character-something we had never seen before.  This new "hero" confused us, because, after all, the TV of the past always gave us a hero above reproach and a solution for every problem he faced.

The early TV cop shows always ended on a high note: the case was solved, the bad guy was dead or convicted and the hero triumphant. MV was the exception. I can remember dreading the ending of some of the MV episodes and until I saw the rolling credits, I was not convinced Sonny and Tubbs had won the day!

So, even though I'm a "Sonny Crockett Groupie" I am also a realist. I don't think Sonny Crockett could have ever maintained a permanent relationship with a woman. It wasn't in his DNA. And I think this is why this show should be appreciated for what it had to offer: characters who showed the  real world at its best;  and the real world at its worst. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by mjcmmv

[vicegirl85]

45 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

According to what I have read & heard that the main reason Sonny and Gina did not stay together was mainly because of new writers. Character wise I agree that Crockett was the one who couldn’t commit to a serious relationship, especially at first, because of his first failed marriage and the job. 

But, again there was always the relationship between Crockett and Gina...it was more than just physical attraction. Over the years and time I think Sonny grew-up, and was ready for a more serious relationship...but took it way too fast and with the wrong woman. 

At the end of the show, since they were having Crockett leave the unit anyway,  both he and Gina would have been able to make it work—they should have had them get together finally, and leave to start fresh. 

I don't know... I'm really torn, because I always wanted Crockett and Gina to end up together and I believed in them as a couple.  I liked them together and I felt there was enough love, caring, respect, and chemistry to help them make it work.  But to a certain extent I believe that was wishful thinking, based on the outcome of Season 5 and the show as a whole.  Sonny did mature but I don't believe he was ready to "settle down" to a more conventional life.

18 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

I don't see Gina leaving the force to be with (an unemployed) Crockett, nor do I see Crockett leading a 9 to 5 workaday domestic existence and waiting on Gina at home while she's on the very job that he walked away from. There's way too many unesolved issues there. I said before that the only way they work out post-Freefall is if they both are off the force and doing something else. But once again, that would change the entire dynamic of what brought them together in the first place so I don't give that a lot of hope. I'm also not sure that a Vice-less Crockett is someone you would want to live with. I see him getting bored quite easily which could easily turn to bitterness. He is someone who is often in love with his angst (very Mann-ish). As much as he gripes about the job, it is the heightened experience of his life. Caroline was right about that with him. If you remove him from that atmosphere, he is going to have SERIOUS problems adjusting to another way of life. I see much more hope with Tubbs who was an interloper to begin with, thus he would have less of a problem leaving Miami and doing something else. Plus Tubbs accomplished what he came to Miami to do all the way back in season 1 and he got rid of Orlando Calderone as well (nevermind the kid, as far as Tubbs knows he died in the explosion, so as far as he's concerned that part of his life is over).

See, I agree 100% with those statements.  My own personal vision of Crockett's life after leaving the force was running a deep-sea fishing tour business.  He always called fishing "sanity maintenance" and I think he might have enjoyed that.  He might have gotten bored--in fact I feel sure he would have--and I don't have a vision of what he might do next.  I'm not sure Gina would have fit in with that life, even if she also stepped away from law enforcement.

[vicegirl85]

19 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

(snipped) But deep down, I feel the Sonny Crockett they were trying to portray in this show was really a selfish guy who didn't particularly care if he hurt the women he dated/loved/craved...or not. And I accepted that. Sonny Crockett was a complex character-something we had never seen before.  This new "hero" confused us, because, after all, the TV of the past always gave us a hero above reproach and a solution for every problem he faced.

(snipped)

So, even though I'm a "Sonny Crockett Groupie" I am also a realist. I don't think Sonny Crockett could have ever maintained a permanent relationship with a woman. It wasn't in his DNA. And I think this is why this show should be appreciated for what it had to offer: characters who showed the  real world at its best;  and the real world at its worst. 

You said it in a nutshell.

I do think Sonny cared about the women he dated/loved/craved.  But in the end, he was about himself and his needs.  That can be seen in the way he interacts (or doesn't interact) with his son--his only child.  If he really wanted to be a father, he could have left undercover work at any point.  But undercover work gave him something that being a husband, father, or lover didn't give him.  He felt a lack in his life, but I think he also felt a lack in his own ability to out a relationship first.

Sonny was a good person, but he was missing something in his DNA, like you said. 

 

[Bren10]

ViceFanMan, yes of course Sonny would have gotten another job, but how happy would he be day to day? Gina I think would have no problem leaving Miami or being in another department, but Sonny is a whole different deal. It wasn't just the literal work, but it was an entire lifestyle Sonny was living. There would be major withdrawal problems with that. Remember the long look at the St Vitus at the end of Freefall. That wasn't just sentiment.Plus, as a character, Sonny's entire identity as a person is tied to Miami, from college football onwards. It's like making Santa leave the North Pole. It just doesn't work. As far as law enforcement, he certainly wouldn't be a uniform cop and I don't see him as a regular NYPD blue-type detective in a trenchcoat. That type of environment would be suffocating to him and Sonny chafes under too much structure. He needs a certain amount of freedom to move, which he had on Vice. Those night drives and sailboat rides weren't just for show. That sort of thing is part of who he is and his spiritual communion with Miami itself, as well as the freedom he needs. Sonny being there for Billy basically amounts to every other weekend and holidays/special events visitation. He would probably be content with Castillo's role in the unit and occasionally mentoring the next generation as he did with Joey Hardin. At the end of the day Crockett needs purpose, but because he is self-centric it needs to be on his terms, as does any exit he takes from it. The Freefall ending appeared to be that, but upon further inspection it was a form of protest and spite, not actual closure. He hated certain aspects of the job and didn't know how or have the power to fix it, so he quit. He would not be a happy man.

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Bren10

[ViceFanMan]

7 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

You said it in a nutshell.

I do think Sonny cared about the women he dated/loved/craved.  But in the end, he was about himself and his needs.  That can be seen in the way he interacts (or doesn't interact) with his son--his only child.  If he really wanted to be a father, he could have left undercover work at any point.  But undercover work gave him something that being a husband, father, or lover didn't give him.  He felt a lack in his life, but I think he also felt a lack in his own ability to out a relationship first.

Sonny was a good person, but he was missing something in his DNA, like you said. 

 

I do think Crockett was selfish, and immature at first. But, I think he matured by the time the show ended. He was still trying to figure out what to do and what changes to make, and so was struggling with things—but struggling differently than the beginning of the show.

I think Crockett knew he needed to leave the OCB and do something else, for Billy’s sake especially, but for his own too—perhaps a fishing business of some kind, maybe something else? But, he was ready to try and be more stable and serious.

If Crockett and Gina had left together to start new somewhere else, I still say they could have made it...might not always have been fairytale, but what is? 

[mjcmmv]

7 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

You said it in a nutshell.

I do think Sonny cared about the women he dated/loved/craved.  But in the end, he was about himself and his needs.  That can be seen in the way he interacts (or doesn't interact) with his son--his only child.  If he really wanted to be a father, he could have left undercover work at any point.  But undercover work gave him something that being a husband, father, or lover didn't give him.  He felt a lack in his life, but I think he also felt a lack in his own ability to out a relationship first.

Sonny was a good person, but he was missing something in his DNA, like you said. 

 

You have given me another piece of the puzzle! Thank you. I forgot the parent/son angle.

Sonny believed believed he was a good father and never saw his career as an impediment. Instead, he expected his love ones to accept this unconditionally and understand why he was never there for them. How sad was that! 

[ViceFanMan]

3 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

You have given me another piece of the puzzle! Thank you. I forgot the parent/son angle.

Sonny believed believed he was a good father and never saw his career as an impediment. Instead, he expected his love ones to accept this unconditionally and understand why he was never there for them. How sad was that! 

At first yes...but he realized he was wrong later, and was trying to change and be there more for Billy & family.

He was ready to be more stable and settle down...he just rushed it too fast with the wrong girl.

Edited April 2, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

Changing it up & going back to the actual topic or episode of this thread ...how many were surprised by the ending the 1st time they saw this one? 

[Robbie C.]

I don't know that Sonny ever really changed...not deep down where it mattered. Another side of Crockett was his running away from things. He never really "owned" his veteran status: some of his most uncomfortable moments are in those veterans' centers. He fought for Billy, but only as much as he could without actually giving anything up (seriously giving anything up, that is). Sonny's selfish side never really stuck out to me (thanks BTW for pointing that out, Bren and micmmv) because I didn't watch that many TV cop shows prior to Vice...my thing was always Eastwood's Dirty Harry and some of the deeper meditations that come from that. Sonny had a hell of a capability for deluding himself...that was what made him so good undercover and possibly directly led to the Burnett break. But there's a direct line from Caroline through Brenda to Caitlin of him not wanting to give up things that really mattered to what he thought he was. If you think about it, in some ways by the end of the series he WAS Rollins.

[vicegirl85]

5 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I do think Crockett was selfish, and immature at first. But, I think he matured by the time the show ended. He was still trying to figure out what to do and what changes to make, and so was struggling with things—but struggling differently than the beginning of the show.

I think Crockett knew he needed to leave the OCB and do something else, for Billy’s sake especially, but for his own too—perhaps a fishing business of some kind, maybe something else? But, he was ready to try and be more stable and serious.

If Crockett and Gina had left together to start new somewhere else, I still say they could have made it...might not always have been fairytale, but what is? 

I hate to disagree, because both of us want Sonny and Gina to be together--and to be happy together (basically)  .  But by the end of the series, Crockett is 40 years old (or very nearly so).  I think his basic character is set and I don't see him becoming more stable and being satisfied sticking with a conventional job situation.  Putting his family before his work... I don't see that either.

8 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

You have given me another piece of the puzzle! Thank you. I forgot the parent/son angle.

Sonny believed believed he was a good father and never saw his career as an impediment. Instead, he expected his love ones to accept this unconditionally and understand why he was never there for them. How sad was that! 

Yes, he expected everyone else to understand.  He thought he wanted to take Billy for a month during the summer, but would he have done so?

[vicegirl85]

3 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Changing it up & going back to the actual topic or episode of this thread ...how many were surprised by the ending the 1st time they saw this one? 

LOL, yes, I was surprised!

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, vicegirl85 said:

I hate to disagree, because both of us want Sonny and Gina to be together--and to be happy together (basically)  .  But by the end of the series, Crockett is 40 years old (or very nearly so).  I think his basic character is set and I don't see him becoming more stable and being satisfied sticking with a conventional job situation.  Putting his family before his work... I don't see that either.

Yes, he expected everyone else to understand.  He thought he wanted to take Billy for a month during the summer, but would he have done so?

He didn’t have to do some desk or “conventional” job...I didn’t necessarily mean that. There’s several things he could have done. 

He knew he needed to change and he realized how selfish and wrong he’d been...that’s why he started spending a lot more time with Billy. He already was seeing him weeks or even a month a time when he got with Caitlin. 

Im not saying Sonny would go be an an accountant somewhere...he could have still worked in law enforcement in some capacity...just not as dangerous and time consuming as Vice undercover.

Sonny had problems and made mistakes...no one is questioning that. But he was trying to change and he had come to realize he needed to make changes for Billy. I think he could have married and been more successful...and I still say it should have been Gina. They could have decided to leave and do something else together, with Billy (during his time with Crockett, as he would also still be with Caroline too).

[ViceFanMan]

9 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

LOL, yes, I was surprised!

The first time I saw it I still thought there was a psycho (pun intended as this was MV’s own version to Hitchcock’s masterpiece ) brother up until the last few minutes...then figured it out right before she came out in “brother drag”. 

[vicegirl85]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

(snipped)He knew he needed to change and he realized how selfish and wrong he’d been...that’s why he started spending a lot more time with Billy. He already was seeing him weeks or even a month a time when he got with Caitlin. 

(snipped)

Sonny had problems and made mistakes...no one is questioning that. But he was trying to change and he had come to realize he needed to make changes for Billy. I think he could have married and been more successful...and I still say it should have been Gina. They could have decided to leave and do something else together, with Billy (during his time with Crockett, as he would also still be with Caroline too).

No one would have liked to see Sonny and Gina end up together than I would!  But I don't recall any times when he actually did take Billy for that month he wanted to do.  True, he brought Billy to Miami to meet Caitlin, but I never saw any signs that he was spending regular father-son time.  I could have missed something but honestly I didn't see it.  But I can certainly agree that there's room for other interpretations.

[Bren10]

One thing you have to remember about Crockett is he is his own martyr. He sees nobility in his own suffering and believes he is fighting a good fight that the outside world doesn't/can't/won't understand, including friends, family, other branches of law enforcement, and authority figures and bureaucracy. He may expect others to accept the conditions  of what he is doing but that is because there is simply no other way to go about doing it. There is no alternative besides 100% commitment to undercover. Some people would say pick another department, but once again, Sonny will not give it up on someone else's terms. And because his life suffers, it is he, not those around him who are making the sacrifice. In his mind he should be applauded, not criticized.

[vicegirl85]

You are so right.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, vicegirl85 said:

No one would have liked to see Sonny and Gina end up together than I would!  But I don't recall any times when he actually did take Billy for that month he wanted to do.  True, he brought Billy to Miami to meet Caitlin, but I never saw any signs that he was spending regular father-son time.  I could have missed something but honestly I didn't see it.  But I can certainly agree that there's room for other interpretations.

I don’t know if it was ever stated it was an actual “month” Billy was there...but the point was Crockett was changing and spending more time with Billy. The impression was it was definitely “weeks”. We saw that during the time Caitlin was around, yes. But we didn’t necessarily see every time Sonny saw Billy...there could have been more.

[Bren10]

And yes, I was surprised, but I knew some kind of a twist was coming. Just not specifically what.

[mjcmmv]

24 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I don't know that Sonny ever really changed...not deep down where it mattered. Another side of Crockett was his running away from things. He never really "owned" his veteran status: some of his most uncomfortable moments are in those veterans' centers. He fought for Billy, but only as much as he could without actually giving anything up (seriously giving anything up, that is). Sonny's selfish side never really stuck out to me (thanks BTW for pointing that out, Bren and micmmv) because I didn't watch that many TV cop shows prior to Vice...my thing was always Eastwood's Dirty Harry and some of the deeper meditations that come from that. Sonny had a hell of a capability for deluding himself...that was what made him so good undercover and possibly directly led to the Burnett break. But there's a direct line from Caroline through Brenda to Caitlin of him not wanting to give up things that really mattered to what he thought he was. If you think about it, in some ways by the end of the series he WAS Rollins.

Wow, yes. Rollins...Sonny really related to what this poor man was going through. And Rollins gave up a life and a wife that loved him.It explains his suicide and I'm sure, makes Sonny think about what may be in store for him!

[vicegirl85]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

I don’t know if it was ever stated it was an actual “month” Billy was there...but the point was Crockett was changing and spending more time with Billy. The impression was it was definitely “weeks”. We saw that during the time Caitlin was around, yes. But we didn’t necessarily see every time Sonny saw Billy...there could have been more.

I didn't get that impression, and the impression I did get was that it was back to business as usual for Sonny, not that he was changing and spending more time with Billy.  The visit to meet Caitlin seemed like a short visit--a weekend or so (to me!).  He had told Caroline he wanted to take Billy for a month during the summer, but I never saw any sign that he followed through.  But again, perhaps I missed something.  

[Bren10]

Everybody pays lip service to being a better parent, but what exactly does that mean for a man like Crockett? I think his intentions are good but he is going against the wind on that. I am reminded of the Sting song "I'm So Happy I Can't Stop Crying". That tells the whole story right there.

[mjcmmv]

34 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

At first yes...but he realized he was wrong later, and was trying to change and be there more for Billy & family.

He was ready to be more stable and settle down...he just rushed it too fast with the wrong girl.

Are you saying he was trying to change when he married Caitlin? and do you feel Caitlin was the wrong girl? Yes, that relationship was rushed, but as someone already pointed out, Caitlyn herself saw Sonny as someone who understood  her world and could give her that stability she craved. And I think initially, he saw her giving that to him as well. 

[ViceFanMan]

3 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I didn't get that impression, and the impression I did get was that it was back to business as usual for Sonny, not that he was changing and spending more time with Billy.  The visit to meet Caitlin seemed like a short visit--a weekend or so (to me!).  He had told Caroline he wanted to take Billy for a month during the summer, but I never saw any sign that he followed through.  But again, perhaps I missed something.  

The whole point of Crockett spending more time with Billy was the “impression”. Him spending the supposed “month” in the summer wasn’t necessarily part of whatever episode at whatever time. Therefore we didn’t literally get to see that. How do we know he didn’t see Billy for a month or so?? There’s no definite impression he didn’t.

I did not think it was back to business as usual for Crockett. It was back to business yes...but it was not the same for him. It was not as enjoyable or fun as it used to be...it was time to change but he was still figuring out how. But he was not the same Crockett as first or even second season. 

[mjcmmv]

38 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Changing it up & going back to the actual topic or episode of this thread ...how many were surprised by the ending the 1st time they saw this one? 

Sorry...I know this has digressed to a totally different focus! I just love the input, though! 

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Sorry...I know this has digressed to a totally different focus! I just love the input, though! 

It’s fun to discuss, digress, and even debate. But, this has gotten pretty off-path, lol. I don’t think we’re all going to agree...and we’ve all stated our thoughts and opinions multiple times over. It now has become beating the proverbial dead-horse. 

Time to move on! 

Edited April 2, 2019 by ViceFanMan