Episode #76 "Like A Hurricane"

[RedDragon86]

On 3/9/2021 at 11:39 PM, Robbie C. said:

As is the other side, the supportive wife. Which you rarely see. So yeah, both are actually cliches. The Shield did a reasonable job hitting a balancing point, and one of the most nuanced takes I've seen on it is The Unit. Which doesn't change the fact I was rooting for the assassins when they went after Caroline.

Maybe Caroline was supportive in the beginning and she ran out of support for Sonny. His excessive drinking, he obviously took no notice of her advice and he no doubt didn't keep his promises to her, like not being there for her and she had enough, which was displayed in "Brothers Keeper"

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by RedDragon86

[wolfie1996]

On 1/3/2013 at 7:22 PM, Vincent Hanna said:

I want to give it a -1/10 just for that scene.

Can we make it a -2/10?

[wolfie1996]

On 3/10/2021 at 1:32 AM, vicegirl85 said:

I just always felt like she went into marriage with Sonny expecting one kind of life, and ended up with quite a different kind of life.  For that matter, I also felt like Sonny didn't really understand what marriage and fatherhood meant, in terms of him making any changes in his life.  That is not a cut on either of them, it's just the way life happens.  Sonny and Caroline did care about each other, but neither one wanted to sacrifice their ideas for the other one.  Ultimately they weren't well-suited to be together, but as fond as I am of Sonny, he wasn't well-suited to be with anyone over the long haul (in my opinion).

A good summing up, I think though Caitlin also had unrealistic ideas  about what his job would  entail. She was a bit of a whiner in my opinion (or maybe it was just the accent !)  and I don't think chosen for any acting ability, particularly. She  could sing, she didn't look like the back of a bus (not  quite) and best of all she wasn't a tall girl, because as we now know, Sonny wasn't that tall. But your final sentence is the one. Temperamentally he wasn't suited to be with anyone (female certainly) over the long haul. If there had been no Billy, would he have missed Caroline that much? They'd been married long enough for the romance to have worn off (two years, it takes, apparently.) He never seemed to miss any of his other fancies once they dropped out of his life  and only the shortness of the relationship  and the manner of her death left him devastated following Caitlin's loss. Probably would miss Tubbs more in the long run, and that's not to imply he's gay or anything. Many men are like that, I believe.

[wolfie1996]

On 11/21/2018 at 12:37 AM, Bren10 said:

I'm sorry, I know Bracco is a superior actress, but for Miami Vice Easton was the better pick. The story of a pop singer was also better than that of an actress. Bracco also wouldn't have produced the ratings grab that Easton did imo. Plus Easton being petite was able to sell the need to be rescued better and could get more sympathy when she gets killed.  It's still heartbreaking to watch her die like she does. They couldn't have killed Bracco like that unless she was doing a play or something. Btw, I really don't get the Easton/Caitlyn hate around here. Obviously acting wasn't Sheena's first profession but Vice was never primarily concerned with great acting in the first place (although it did exist on the show often). It seems to a lot of people are projecting "don't take my Sonny away" onto her which isn't really fair.  It's as if Caitlyn symbolizes a turning point in the show for some people. Maybe somebody can explain?

Last sentence: you're partly right and partly wrong in my opinion. I don't think anyone minds Sonny having a lover (for lack of a better word) in fact they enjoy seeing him with a woman. I don't remember anyone  criticising Gina. However, being permanently committed (or ensnared) is a different matter altogether. That WOULD be seen as symbolising a turning  point and would somehow be sensed as out of character. I never got the impression myself that the marriage  would have lasted anyway.

[wolfie1996]

On 12/14/2018 at 11:15 PM, Bren10 said:

One thing I've noticed  here on the forum is that a lot of people have more of a problem with Caitlyn than with Sonny turning heel (to use wrestling parlance) and becoming Burnett and slaughtering everyone.  I'm not quite sure what that says about us.  

It says that him becoming that alter ego (which is forced upon him as well) is more acceptable than him becoming a tame lap dog voluntarily

[wolfie1996]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:12 PM, Dadrian said:

Have you ever noticed this episode is right after “Missing Hours”? Maybe Caitlin was beamed down, and Sonny was brainwashed.   

Oh you!   

[Mr. Calderon]

10 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

It says that him becoming that alter ego (which is forced upon him as well) is more acceptable than him becoming a tame lap dog voluntarily

I dont have any prob with caitlin. I simply HATE the burnett arch. More episodes i skip.

[wolfie1996]

1 minute ago, Mr. Calderon said:

I dont have any prob with caitlin. I simply HATE the burnett arch. More episodes i skip.

Why do you  hate it, though? I don't think he ever loses his real self during it.

[Mr. Calderon]

On these episodes, i decided to follow crockett steps and get amnesia too. 

[ViceFanMan]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Calderon said:

On these episodes, i decided to follow crockett steps and get amnesia too. 

 I usually end up watching them as they are part of the show, unfortunately, but they are ridiculous! Crockett becomes a psycho dug dealer killer...then later supposedly is just fine & is allowed to come back, be a cop again, like nothing happened.  

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

 I usually end up watching them as they are part of the show, unfortunately, but they are ridiculous! Crockett becomes a psycho dug dealer killer...then later supposedly is just fine & is allowed to come back, be a cop again, like nothing happened. 

No more ridiculous than meeting and marrying Caitlin in about 10 minutes, surely! Dramatic licence I think. Using the "balance of his mind was  disturbed" argument, as they used to say about suicides or even some violent crimes possibly. Would you have preferred   him to have been killed or imprisoned  for the  sake of realism?

[ViceFanMan]

11 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

No more ridiculous than meeting and marrying Caitlin in about 10 minutes, surely! Dramatic licence I think. Using the "balance of his mind was  disturbed" argument, as they used to say about suicides or even some violent crimes possibly. Would you have preferred   him to have been killed or imprisoned  for the  sake of realism?

Totally agree about Caitlin...he basically knew her less than a week, lol!  All of that—Caitlin, Burnett saga, etc...were all ridiculous, over-the-top, shock-value storylines to try and get back viewers. It all backfired...and sadly helped further the show’s demise. Amnesia is one thing...but I think the majority of fans didn’t like the “destruction” of the character of Crockett, by making him a killer thug—then we’re supposed to just pretend like it didn’t happen a few episodes later. 

[wolfie1996]

4 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Totally agree about Caitlin...he basically knew her less than a week, lol!  All of that—Caitlin, Burnett saga, etc...were all ridiculous, over-the-top, shock-value storylines to try and get back viewers. It all backfired...and sadly helped further the show’s demise. Amnesia is one thing...but I think the majority of fans didn’t like the “destruction” of the character of Crockett, by making him a killer thug—then we’re supposed to just pretend like it didn’t happen a few episodes later. 

Aha..! But apart from shooting at Tubbs, he didn't do any damage to any innocent people. They were all crooks. So perhaps  his basic "real self" was never lost but  merely mislaid  So I never stopped seeing him as that decent person he was throughout the rest of the series. He didn't do anything cruel or vicious to  anyone he wouldn't have damaged anyway as his normal self, except Tubbs...and even the second time he  shot at him, he deliberately missed.

[ViceFanMan]

35 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Aha..! But apart from shooting at Tubbs, he didn't do any damage to any innocent people. They were all crooks. So perhaps  his basic "real self" was never lost but  merely mislaid  So I never stopped seeing him as that decent person he was throughout the rest of the series. He didn't do anything cruel or vicious to  anyone he wouldn't have damaged anyway as his normal self, except Tubbs...and even the second time he  shot at him, he deliberately missed.

Even if the majority of the people he killed or manipulated to have killed were other thugs...it was still the whole idea of Crockett turning psycho. It was just thugs killing thugs. And yes...he tried to kill Tubbs. That was probably the most destructive for his character. Crockett would not have done all that. The whole thing was ridiculous and caused ratings to fall even further. 

However, even though I don’t really care for Caitlin & that whole storyline...I can still handle her episodes (such as this one—“Hurricane”) better than the Burnett ones. 

[Robbie C.]

No one knows how long he knew Caitlin. Vice was always fluid when it came to time, and if anyone thinks a Federal racketeering case could proceed in a week they clearly have issues we can't deal with here.

Sonny was never psycho as Burnett...he was methodical. VERY methodical.

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

A good summing up, I think though Caitlin also had unrealistic ideas  about what his job would  entail. She was a bit of a whiner in my opinion (or maybe it was just the accent !)  and I don't think chosen for any acting ability, particularly. She  could sing, she didn't look like the back of a bus (not  quite) and best of all she wasn't a tall girl, because as we now know, Sonny wasn't that tall. But your final sentence is the one. Temperamentally he wasn't suited to be with anyone (female certainly) over the long haul. If there had been no Billy, would he have missed Caroline that much? They'd been married long enough for the romance to have worn off (two years, it takes, apparently.) He never seemed to miss any of his other fancies once they dropped out of his life  and only the shortness of the relationship  and the manner of her death left him devastated following Caitlin's loss. Probably would miss Tubbs more in the long run, and that's not to imply he's gay or anything. Many men are like that, I believe.

I think Sonny felt guilty about Caitlin--that his actions in getting Hackman freed were the reason H. was able to go after Caitlin.  I think that's the main thing that hit him so hard, and the big reason why he was so devastated, as well as the pregnancy he hadn't known about.  If she had lived, I could see their relationship eventually crumbling, just as his relationship with Caroline had, and for the same reasons.  I disagree that the marriage was already falling apart, but I believe it would have ended up that way within a couple of years.

Do I think Caitlin was "whiny"?  I wouldn't say that, although I agree she didn't realize or accept the degree that his job would take over his life, and the way undercover work would take him away from her.  The speed at which their relationship went from antagonistic sparring to head-over-heels passion prevented them from really getting to know each other, whether that time was a week or perhaps a month.  MV never provided any information about the amount of time that had passed, but it wasn't apparent if Sonny had moved onto a new case or cases, so I think it's reasonable to assume it was a month or less.

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

No one knows how long he knew Caitlin. Vice was always fluid when it came to time, and if anyone thinks a Federal racketeering case could proceed in a week they clearly have issues we can't deal with here.

Sonny was never psycho as Burnett...he was methodical. VERY methodical.

I agree, time on MV could be very fluid. However, the way they had Crockett & Caitlin get together & decide to get married was portrayed within about 1-2 weeks. When the actual marriage ceremony took place...that supposedly could have been longer?

Totally agree...Burnett was very methodical and scheming! But, even though we have a stereotypical image of a psycho such as Hackman (who by all means was one)...they actually can also be very intelligent & methodical. They’re not all loud-mouth, crazies. No, Burnett didn’t eat people , but the character of Hannibal Lecter is a good example of that. Perhaps mentally deranged is a better way to say it...but psycho can still apply. 

[wolfie1996]

9 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

think Sonny felt guilty about Caitlin--that his actions in getting Hackman freed were the reason H. was able to go after Caitlin.  I think that's the main thing that hit him so hard, and the big reason why he was so devastated, as well as the pregnancy he hadn't known about.  If she had lived, I could see their relationship eventually crumbling, just as his relationship with Caroline had, and for the same reasons.  I disagree that the marriage was already falling apart, but I believe it would have ended up that way within a couple of years.

Do I think Caitlin was "whiny"?  I wouldn't say that, although I agree she didn't realize or accept the degree that his job would take over his life, and the way undercover work would take him away from her.  The speed at which their relationship went from antagonistic sparring to head-over-heels passion prevented them from really getting to know each other, whether that time was a week or perhaps a month.  MV never provided any information about the amount of time that had passed, but it wasn't apparent if Sonny had moved onto a new case or cases, so I think it's reasonable to assume it was a month or less.

I agree with the guilt reaction but I didn't intend to infer that the marriage was already falling apart, more that realisation was starting to  dawn regarding how it would be conducted, shall we say. She was pretty determined to hang onto her career  and I can't imagine him giving up what he did to please any wife, seeing as he didn't to keep hold of Caroline and especially Billy. If either had had to give way, there would have been a lot of resentment eventually. So I didn't see a future in it once the original infatuation had worn off.  Having a child hadn't kept him in his first marriage after all. It's as we both agreed, he wasn't cut out for long term relationships which would have entailed him giving up part of himself. Some people's sense of self is very strong and with men particularly, seems closely bound up with their job, pretty often.

[vicegirl85]

11 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

No one knows how long he knew Caitlin. Vice was always fluid when it came to time, and if anyone thinks a Federal racketeering case could proceed in a week they clearly have issues we can't deal with here.

Sonny was never psycho as Burnett...he was methodical. VERY methodical.

Your point about the time frame re:  a racketeering case is definitely valid, and I agree MV didn't make much effort to realistically portray time passing.  However, the apparent time that was taken up by Sonny's involvement with Caitlin in the case is not much.  I think Vice fans can get leeway in accepting it as a week or two, although I agree it could have been longer.  And almost as soon as Sonny and Caitlin discovered their mutual antagonism had turned into mutual appreciation and acted on the attraction, the case was settled/ dropped.  

I agree, too, that Sonny acted very methodically as Burnett.  He didn't seem unhinged or make irrational decisions.  He adopted another identity that was a part of him, after an amnesia-inducing head trauma combined with the mental and emotional trauma of Caitlin's murder and his own assassination of Hackman (or after killing Hackman in self-defense, if anyone wants to have it that way--although I don't see it as self-defense for reasons already explained elsewhere).  That identity was one of a criminal.  Sonny had to make a lot of decisions in that world in order to survive, and his past experience and the leadership skills Vice attributed to him helped him to weigh options and choose the one(s) that would keep him alive and succeeding in a cutthroat world. 

When he regained his memory--MV didn't handle it very realistically but it wasn't simply dropped and everything went back to normal.  There were some attempts to show aftereffects (his counseling sessions), he was investigated by IA and had at least a hearing before a judge, if not a full trial.  I have problems with the way his return was handled and don't believe he could ever have returned to undercover work, but it wasn't simply completely brushed under the rug.

[wolfie1996]

13 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

14 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Totally agree...Burnett was very methodical and scheming! But, even though we have a stereotypical image of a psycho such as Hackman (who by all means was one)...they actually can also be very intelligent & methodical. They’re not all loud-mouth, crazies. No, Burnett didn’t eat people , but the character of Hannibal Lecter is a good example of that. Perhaps mentally deranged is a better way to say it...but psycho can still apply. 

I don't think someone can temporarily be a psychopath. Generally born one  and they don't change. I do think people can be temporarily mentally deranged though with PTSD. Maybe something like that would explain it.

 

[ViceFanMan]

8 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

 

I don’t think someone is automatically born a psycho...I think multiple factors over that person’s life is what ultimately turns them “bad”. 

With Crockett as Burnett, he didn’t really have PTSD...he supposedly became mentally deranged or psycho, after the boat explosion. The thing is, Burnett was always fake...a facade. Obviously Crockett knew that. So, I have issues with Crockett suddenly thinking he’s real after supposedly being injured. Amnesia (literally not knowing who you are or where you came from) might make more sense, but becoming the killer drug-thug was ridiculous.

Edited April 3, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I don’t think someone is automatically born a psycho...I think multiple factors over that person’s life is what ultimately turns them “bad”. 

With Crockett as Burnett, he didn’t really have PTSD...he supposedly became mentally deranged or psycho, after the boat explosion. The thing is, Burnett was always fake...a facade. Obviously Crockett knew that. So, I have issues with Crockett suddenly thinking he’s real after supposedly being injured. Amnesia might make more sense, but becoming the killer drug-thug was ridiculous.

Have we not had this discussion before?

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, wolfie1996 said:

Have we not had this discussion before?

Lol...possibly! And we actually probably shouldn’t continue it here, as this is mainly about “Hurricane”, and the Burnett saga doesn’t really have much to do with it. 

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Lol...possibly! And we actually probably shouldn’t continue it here, as this is mainly about “Hurricane”, and the Burnett saga doesn’t really have much to do with it. 

Hopefully we're in  reasonable agreement about the likely temporary  nature of the Caitlin marriage  if fate in the form of Hackman hadn't intervened  I don't see Sonny cut out for a long term serious relationship   for the reasons mentioned above! I often wonder what would have happened to him if  we'd seen further than Freefall.  That  episode ended on a bleak note, I thought, for all the joking and camaraderie. A sort of  sad and serious conclusion.

[vicegirl85]

5 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

With Crockett as Burnett, he didn’t really have PTSD...he supposedly became mentally deranged or psycho, after the boat explosion. 

Here's where I disagree with you.  I believe Crockett absolutely did have PTSD after the series of events:  seeing Caitlin killed by Hackman right in front of him--knowing he himself was the reason Hackman was walking around as a free man; later, learning Caitlin was pregnant when she died; then, violating his code as a police officer by hunting Hackman down to take personal vengeance on him, and killing him (even if Hackman had a gun on him, it was never shown that he pulled the gun on Sonny first).  While still emotionally spent, Crockett returns to work and is injured in the boat explosion.  He awakens in an apparent medical facility, being examined by a man who seems to be a physcian.  We don't get any details or confirmation that he's receiving actual medical care.  He asks who he is and is told he is probably a drug dealer.

Yes, Burnett was a fake identity, but at various times Crockett has said in the past that sometimes during an undercover assignment, he wakes up and "wonders who he is".  His undercover identity can at times become blurred with his real self.  So, in a weakened and amnesiac state (no evidence is ever shown that while living as Burnett during this sequence, he realizes that he is actually a cop), he does assume that identity--Burnett, the drug dealer.  This is a harder-edged Burnett than we've ever seen, and in fact for me his transformation into master criminal was a bit hard to believe, since Burnett had previously been portrayed as a bit of a good ol' boy, albeit serious about his transportation "business."  He took on that identity not because he lost his mind, but as a survival mechanism after finding himself in completely strange and possibly hostile surroundings, with his only contacts being people he didn't know and couldn't trust.  I maintain that if he'd awakened in a real hospital, with friends around him and his identity known, he wouldn't have experienced that psychic break.