Episode #76 "Like A Hurricane"

[wolfie1996]

1 minute ago, RedDragon86 said:

Thanks, Arnold was amazing last night so too was Jota.

You a Liverpool fan?

Certainly am! I think Klopp is great and Jota was a fantastic acquisition  However like most , my nails are bitten  down to the knuckles watching each game.....the stress, the stress...the shouting at the TV..you'll know what I mean..

[RedDragon86]

1 minute ago, wolfie1996 said:

Certainly am! I think Klopp is great and Jota was a fantastic acquisition  However like most , my nails are bitten  down to the knuckles watching each game.....the stress, the stress...the shouting at the TV..you'll know what I mean..

That's great! top 4 is possible now with Spurs drawing today as well.

[RedDragon86]

Sorry for going off topic 

Back to the episode discussion...

[wolfie1996]

3 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

That's great! top 4 is possible now with Spurs drawing today as well.

Indeed! who'd ha' thought it! Goal difference only between them and West Ham, I believe AND Brighton are leading 1-0 against Man U though only half time.  Fingers crossed.....

[vicegirl85]

20 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

If Sonny wanted to break free from the undercover stuff, he needed to be with someone other than Gina. Gina was a direct link to that life, and always would be so long as they were both on the force. I will remain in the minority here, but I think they would have been a horrible couple for any number of reasons.

I can't agree they would have been a "horrible" couple, because I do feel that they loved each other (maybe in different ways)...but actually I do agree with your points and believe that in the end, Sonny would not have been able to give Gina what she needed, and he didn't actually want what she would have liked to give him.  Certainly as long as both of them remained in the jobs they were doing, I don't think they could have worked over the long run as a serious couple.

 

[vicegirl85]

22 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I still say Gina was the best woman for Crockett in the long-run. She understood Crockett (probably better than he understood himself), understood the job & it’s demands...as she had to perform them herself. 

I am a big supporter of Sonny and Gina together and I do think they would have had a lot in common--but I think that would have been a two-edged sword for them, too.  Gina understood him--and that's why I think that ultimately they would not have succeeded as a couple.  Gina would have wanted more than Sonny was willing to give any woman (true partnership as a couple, for example), and Sonny didn't really want that level of commitment with any woman.  If they had left the force, it might have worked.

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I am a big supporter of Sonny and Gina together and I do think they would have had a lot in common--but I think that would have been a two-edged sword for them, too.  Gina understood him--and that's why I think that ultimately they would not have succeeded as a couple.  Gina would have wanted more than Sonny was willing to give any woman (true partnership as a couple, for example), and Sonny didn't really want that level of commitment with any woman.  If they had left the force, it might have worked.

Early on, I agree...but by the time the show ended Sonny was different. He was not the same Crockett as say Seasons 1-2. I’m not saying he was ready to leave Vice...but it was not his entire life anymore. He was realizing the importance of family, he was spending more time with Billy & wanting to be there more for him, and he was looking for a serious long-term relationship...he just didn’t choose well in finding someone who would know & understand the job. 

I still think they could have had Crockett & Gina rekindle their relationship and end up together at the end...they understood each other well enough in or out of the job. 

[Glades]

I have a few thoughts on the Sonny-Gina-Caitlin issue as well. Even though I don't know if you can relate to them.

I see Sonny and Gina more like brother and sister than lovers. Yes, there is a strong connection between the two. But they are very / too similar. More like buddies, or brother and sister.

And Caitlin? I often see patterns in MV. Parallels, opposites, thesis, antithesis, synthesis.... Gina and Sonny are like parallels, as I said.

Caitlin is the light side of Crockett, just as Burnett is his dark side. It's like life. Life contains life and death. Hard to understand, but it's like that. Crockett's person contains Caitlin and Burnett. Crockett loves his light side in loving Caitlin. And when Caitlin dies, there's only his dark side left, only Burnett. That's why there's the Burnett arc. And then Crockett finds his light side again, in his compassion for the prisoners, in his love for Celeste.
And S5, it's about Sonny integrating Caitlin and Burnett into himself, becoming a whole person.

Those are a few thoughts of mine.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Glades

[ViceFanMan]

20 minutes ago, Glades said:

I have a few thoughts on the Sonny-Gina-Caitlin issue as well. Even though I don't know if you can relate to them.

I see Sonny and Gina more like brother and sister than lovers. Yes, there is a strong connection between the two. But they are very / too similar. More like buddies, or brother and sister.

And Caitlin? I often see patterns in MV. Parallels, opposites, thesis, antithesis, synthesis.... Gina and Sonny are like parallels, as I said.

Caitlin is the light side of Crockett, just as Burnett is his dark side. It's like life. Life contains life and death. Hard to understand, but it's like that. Crockett's person contains Caitlin and Burnett. Crockett loves his light side in loving Caitlin. And when Caitlin dies, there's only his dark side left, only Burnett. That's why there's the Burnett arc. And then Crockett finds his light side again, in his compassion for the prisoners, in his love for Celeste.
And S5, it's about Sonny integrating Caitlin and Burnett into himself, becoming a whole person.

Those are a few thoughts of mine.

Interesting thoughts! However, I think that Crockett and Caitlin had no idea what the other was getting into with each other’s careers. They thought they loved each other...but it was more of an “idea” or fantasy of what they wanted, that each was  “in love” with. Sadly, it wasn’t reality.

 I don’t think of Crockett and Gina as siblings, lol...not heard of that one. But, I agree they were buddies...best friends. But, sometimes best friends make the best lovers. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Robbie C.]

30 minutes ago, Glades said:

I have a few thoughts on the Sonny-Gina-Caitlin issue as well. Even though I don't know if you can relate to them.

I see Sonny and Gina more like brother and sister than lovers. Yes, there is a strong connection between the two. But they are very / too similar. More like buddies, or brother and sister.

And Caitlin? I often see patterns in MV. Parallels, opposites, thesis, antithesis, synthesis.... Gina and Sonny are like parallels, as I said.

Caitlin is the light side of Crockett, just as Burnett is his dark side. It's like life. Life contains life and death. Hard to understand, but it's like that. Crockett's person contains Caitlin and Burnett. Crockett loves his light side in loving Caitlin. And when Caitlin dies, there's only his dark side left, only Burnett. That's why there's the Burnett arc. And then Crockett finds his light side again, in his compassion for the prisoners, in his love for Celeste.
And S5, it's about Sonny integrating Caitlin and Burnett into himself, becoming a whole person.

Those are a few thoughts of mine.

I have said for some time that in Caitlin he saw a way out of where he was to someplace he wanted to be. She was clearly a vision of what he saw as the bright side of life (as you suggest), which is in part why I wrote Jenny the way I did. These are things Sonny was looking for as he started to realize he was getting into his undercover life too deeply.

[wolfie1996]

9 hours ago, Glades said:

I have a few thoughts on the Sonny-Gina-Caitlin issue as well. Even though I don't know if you can relate to them.

I see Sonny and Gina more like brother and sister than lovers. Yes, there is a strong connection between the two. But they are very / too similar. More like buddies, or brother and sister.

And Caitlin? I often see patterns in MV. Parallels, opposites, thesis, antithesis, synthesis.... Gina and Sonny are like parallels, as I said.

Caitlin is the light side of Crockett, just as Burnett is his dark side. It's like life. Life contains life and death. Hard to understand, but it's like that. Crockett's person contains Caitlin and Burnett. Crockett loves his light side in loving Caitlin. And when Caitlin dies, there's only his dark side left, only Burnett. That's why there's the Burnett arc. And then Crockett finds his light side again, in his compassion for the prisoners, in his love for Celeste.
And S5, it's about Sonny integrating Caitlin and Burnett into himself, becoming a whole person.

A vey interesting interpretation, Glades. I'd only dissent in that I don't think Sonny actually loved Celeste (although to me she was a really pretty woman, more so than most of his choices) but also, you're right, he never loved Gina either. Another thing  Gina had working against her was familiarity. He worked quite closely with her and knew her well. I've read that the "infatuated" romantic part of a relationship has been measured as lasting about two years and after that something deeper needs to have taken its place. (This even in established couples, which they weren't.) That's when the  new and unknown becomes more attractive. Which as we know, it frequently did  with  Sonny Interesting  analysis though.

[Glades]

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

I'd only dissent in that I don't think Sonny actually loved Celeste

No real dissent from you.
I am referring to the scene in the hotel when Sonny realizes that Celeste has betrayed him. Sonny's first impulse is revenge/punishment. But then he shows compassion for her, is able to forgive her.
Ultimately, I also think that Sonny didn't really love Celeste in a way that he would have wanted to marry her.

[wolfie1996]

32 minutes ago, Glades said:

No real dissent from you.
I am referring to the scene in the hotel when Sonny realizes that Celeste has betrayed him. Sonny's first impulse is revenge/punishment. But then he shows compassion for her, is able to forgive her.
Ultimately, I also think that Sonny didn't really love Celeste in a way that he would have wanted to marry her

I agree. He did care about her because you could tell, when she asked if he'd look after her, he made an almost imperceptible shake of the head but added reassuringly that  she was a smart woman who once she got rid of the drugs, could take care of herself, and as I remember accompanied that with a hug. And he did forgive her  But as you say, enough to marry? no. And that went for nearly all the women he got involved with. My conclusion is that Sonny's permanent relationships would always be the more detached non sexual ones he achieved with such as Tubbs. And with his son of course. Look  how massively he was affected by what he saw as the betrayal of friendship both on his part and Evan's in that episode. It caused an internal/mental/spiritual "wound" which couldn't heal even though he wanted it to. I understand that very well. I would feel the same myself. (And have done.)

[Bren10]

On 4/3/2021 at 3:07 PM, wolfie1996 said:

It says that him becoming that alter ego (which is forced upon him as well) is more acceptable than him becoming a tame lap dog voluntarily

Tame lap dog how? One thing Sonny wasn't was whipped. I didn't see any changes in his behavior that would indicate that. They didn't even have that much time together, all told. What I see is an increasingly desperate man (in terms of meaningful relationships) attempting to hold it together and make something work. And he would be very aware of the mistakes he made with Caroline and try not to repeat them. 

[Bren10]

On 4/3/2021 at 3:03 PM, wolfie1996 said:

Last sentence: you're partly right and partly wrong in my opinion. I don't think anyone minds Sonny having a lover (for lack of a better word) in fact they enjoy seeing him with a woman. I don't remember anyone  criticising Gina. However, being permanently committed (or ensnared) is a different matter altogether. That WOULD be seen as symbolising a turning  point and would somehow be sensed as out of character. I never got the impression myself that the marriage  would have lasted anyway.

Sonny having a lover or significant other wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the courtship and marriage to Caitlyn, so you're kind of making my point for me. But if you think Gina hasn't been criticized then you haven't perused this forum enough. And as I've indicated in many other posts, I didn't think the marriage would/could last either. They were always going with hope against hope, and they knew that. But the idea that Sonny somehow becomes "weak" just because he gets married and tries to have a home life is something I just don't see and reeks of macho BS, frankly.Vice was never really about male posturing although it did concern many male issues. Now if you want to make the case that Sonny having a wife/family that is close to him makes him more vulnerable (as evidenced by Hackman) then that is a valid point and a common Mann-erism as well.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Bren10

[ViceFanMan]

31 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Tame lap dog how? One thing Sonny wasn't was whipped. I didn't see any changes in his behavior that would indicate that. They didn't even have that much time together, all told. What I see is an increasingly desperate man (in terms of meaningful relationships) attempting to hold it together and make something work. And he would be very aware of the mistakes he made with Caroline and try not to repeat them. 

Totally agree...Crockett was not “whipped” or an easily manipulated lap-dog! He was very much his own man. Caitlin was her own woman...she too was not easily forced to do something she didn’t want to. Two head-strong people rushing into marriage without getting to truly know each other usually does not end well. 

Although (not necessarily for malicious reasons) Caitlin eventually did try to force Sonny into what she wanted/needed when it came to her career.  Crockett, too, just expected Caitlin to just go along with his career (although after what they went through with her psycho ex-managers you’d think she would have an idea).

But, both didn’t really know each other at all and/or what each of their careers entailed...they dove into a fantasy that both thought they wanted. However, reality soon hit and even though I think both were trying to figure out ways to make the marriage work...it ultimately was doomed almost from the get-go.

I don’t dislike the character of Caitlin, although I didn’t find her very attractive, but she definitely was another “wrong” one for Crockett. I actually found the Caitlin saga somewhat interesting, as to me it realistically showed how a marriage starts to fall apart when the two people rush into it without really thinking or getting to know each other. 

[Robbie C.]

21 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Sonny having a lover or significant other wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the courtship and marriage to Caitlyn, so you're kind of making my point for me. But if you think Gina hasn't been criticized then you haven't perused this forum enough. And as I've indicated in many other posts, I didn't think the marriage would/could last either. They were always going with hope against hope, and they knew that. But the idea that Sonny somehow becomes "weak" just because gets married and tries to have a home life is something I just don't see and reeks of macho BS, frankly.Vice was never really about male posturing although it did concern many male issues. Now if you want to make the case that Sonny having a wife/family that is close to him makes him more vulnerable (as evidenced by Hackman) then that is a valid point and a common Mann-erism as well.

I, for one, have been very critical of Gina as being "the one" for Crockett, both in this forum and my fiction. And the trope of "family making one vulnerable" is one Dick Wolf latched onto in a major way (just look his other slew of shows...very few actual family men to be seen).

Edited April 11, 2021 by Robbie C.

[ViceFanMan]

Referring back to some comments or posts about Celeste...I don’t consider her one of “Sonny’s” girlfriends or true love interests at all. She was part of the supposed fake world of “Burnett”. Crockett didn’t love her or really know anything about her. Burnett thought he did...but Burnett wasn’t real either! 

[ViceFanMan]

So begins the Caitlin-saga! Much of this is my original thoughts/review:

I like this episode...a good Season 4 one! Now, I’m sorry, but how fast Crockett and Caitlin fall in love and decide to get married was beyond ridiculous!  They barely knew each other more than a couple weeks...that's just dumb. But, I did like the plot, action, and even the storyline of Crockett falling in love again.

Now, Gina will always be the true woman for Sonny, in my opinion, but the only other girls Crockett had that I also somewhat liked were Theresa and then Caitlin. However, even though I think Sheena Easton (Caitlin) can be beautiful...I did not like her punk/chopped-up hairdo in MV.  But, that’s just me. However, I still liked her ‘character’ and how strong, forthright, independent, but loving she was.

She truly cared about her business, whether it made her tons of money or not. She cared about children, family, and friends. I also think Sheena is a pretty good singer, and has an amazing voice. I loved Crockett's so-called disgust for celebrities and all their egotistical hang-ups and quirks...considering most of what he threw at Caitlin was what Don Johnson was known to be like in real life.  Such is Hollywood.

The action in this was awesome, and I loved the shoot out at the restaurant, and the subsequent boat chase! I also really liked the scene between Crockett and Caitlin after the bad guys leave and they're stranded in the boat...where she finally tells Sonny the real reason she's testifying against Tommy and what her purpose is. Then he realizes what an a** he's been and they reveal their true feelings for each other. Cheesy, I know...but like it or not "cheese" is part of real life too.

The guest-stars, besides Sheena, were awesome and interesting too! Xander Berkeley was amazing as the sleezy/creepy music agent Tommy Lowell. The hit on him, where his Porsche blows up with him in it, was very "mobish" and fitting. Tony Hendra was also a good choice for creepy, "evil" music producer Gordon Wiggins. Clayton Barclay Jones was back again as Crockett's son Billy, and I really loved the scenes between them as Sonny tells him about Caitlin.

The music was pretty good in this...again Sheena Easton has an amazing voice. However, When He Shines was not my favorite, and was kind of an odd song. But, a remake or not (and despite what Crockett originally said about it) I actually did like her version of I Got You Babe. The Domination by the M.C.'s of Rap also made an interesting and ear-catching opener for the episode. Love Jan Hammer's wedding song as well!

The ending with the wedding was cool, and I really like it! However, I did feel bad for Gina when Sonny first tells her he's getting married. That tells me there was still something between them (at least emotionally), and I still like Saundra Santiago better! But, I loved how all of Crockett's old friends got together to congratulate him, Castillo's speech and support of Sonny, and even Gina's eventual understanding of the situation.

Billy was funny with being hot in his little tux and swatting mosquitos, and Jan Hammer's cameo as the head of the wedding band/music was superb as always! It was a beautiful wedding scene and a happy time for Crockett...as we know many times good things don't last forever, and more tragic/"dark" times are ahead.

Overall I really like this one and enjoy watching it. But, how fast Sonny and Caitlin fall in love and get married is pretty crazy...and was very obviously a desperate attempt by producers & writers to try and lure viewers (aka ratings) back. However, it ultimately failed.

But, plot/character wise—as I stated in an earlier post: Two head-strong people rushing into marriage without getting to truly know each other usually does not end well. Although (not necessarily for malicious reasons) Caitlin eventually did try to force Sonny into what she wanted/needed when it came to her career.  Crockett, too, just expected Caitlin to just go along with his career (although after what they went through with her psycho ex-managers you’d think she would have an idea).

But, both didn’t really know each other at all and/or what each of their careers entailed...they dove into a fantasy that both thought they wanted. However, reality soon hit and even though I think both were trying to figure out ways to make the marriage work...it ultimately was doomed almost from the get-go.

I don’t dislike the character of Caitlin, although I didn’t find her very attractive, but she definitely was another “wrong” one for Crockett. I actually found the Caitlin saga somewhat interesting, as to me it realistically showed how a marriage starts to fall apart when the two people rush into it without really thinking or getting to know each other. 

Overall this was an interesting and enjoyable episode for Season 4. I originally gave this one an 8, and still do! 

Edited July 22, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Tom]

I agree.

My thoughts to the "Marriage too fast" argument: on one hand I understand that they did not spread the "get to know each other well" phase out to two episodes, given the fast pace of the series, the title of the episode and probably that would have been cheesy too to show in one episode just how Crockett dates Caitlin. On the other, they had Theresa in two episodes in season 3 and retrospectively speaking that made sense, as it was really serious for Crockett -he even bought rings - and would have been odd to have a serious relationship out of nowhere until proposal (that did not take place in the end due to Theresa´s drug addiction) within one episode. Maybe also the VICE ratings battle against Dallas in its timeslot - which was the major driver behind the marriage story - would have been positively impacted by a longer marriage teaser timeframe of 2+ episodes? But it certainly was also an availability issue with Sheena Easton (4-5 episodes take some serious time of filming in Miami)....

 

[Glades]

Although it seems hard to imagine, when I first watched MV in 2018, I knew nothing about how the series would end, nothing about the Caitlin and Burnett arc.

I was so used to the love interests of Crockett and Tubbs only lasting 1 episode (Theresa being in 2 episodes I missed). So I assumed that would be the same for Caitlin. And since there were these threats against Caitlin, I thought she would be murdered before the end of this episode. That's why I missed the wedding the first time around. I just couldn't look at the screen! And I was quite surprised when the episode ended without a murder.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

I agree.

My thoughts to the "Marriage too fast" argument: on one hand I understand that they did not spread the "get to know each other well" phase out to two episodes, given the fast pace of the series, the title of the episode and probably that would have been cheesy too to show in one episode just how Crockett dates Caitlin. On the other, they had Theresa in two episodes in season 3 and retrospectively speaking that made sense, as it was really serious for Crockett -he even bought rings - and would have been odd to have a serious relationship out of nowhere until proposal (that did not take place in the end due to Theresa´s drug addiction) within one episode. Maybe also the VICE ratings battle against Dallas in its timeslot - which was the major driver behind the marriage story - would have been positively impacted by a longer marriage teaser timeframe of 2+ episodes? But it certainly was also an availability issue with Sheena Easton (4-5 episodes take some serious time of filming in Miami)....

 

 

25 minutes ago, Glades said:

Although it seems hard to imagine, when I first watched MV in 2018, I knew nothing about how the series would end, nothing about the Caitlin and Burnett arc.

I was so used to the love interests of Crockett and Tubbs only lasting 1 episode (Theresa being in 2 episodes I missed). So I assumed that would be the same for Caitlin. And since there were these threats against Caitlin, I thought she would be murdered before the end of this episode. That's why I missed the wedding the first time around. I just couldn't look at the screen! And I was quite surprised when the episode ended without a murder.

Yeah, I think they set up an elongated out story arc with Caitlin to try and get back some ratings (being up against Dallas for any show at that time, was probably not great). I think it was always the plan to eventually include her demise, but it wasn’t going to all be in one episode.

Although Caitlin “technically” was in more episodes than Theresa, it was definitely implied that Crockett had known & been dating Theresa longer than the couple episodes we as viewers got to see her in. He literally just met and decided to get married to Caitlin within like a couple weeks...so it just came off ridiculous to me, and unrealistic. 

However, as I’ve said before they actually became more “realistic” with their marriage, how their careers affected it & how it started falling apart...almost from the beginning. 

[RedDragon86]

On 4/3/2021 at 10:27 PM, ViceFanMan said:

I agree, time on MV could be very fluid. However, the way they had Crockett & Caitlin get together & decide to get married was portrayed within about 1-2 weeks. When the actual marriage ceremony took place...that supposedly could have been longer?

Totally agree...Burnett was very methodical and scheming! But, even though we have a stereotypical image of a psycho such as Hackman (who by all means was one)...they actually can also be very intelligent & methodical. They’re not all loud-mouth, crazies. No, Burnett didn’t eat people , but the character of Hannibal Lecter is a good example of that. Perhaps mentally deranged is a better way to say it...but psycho can still apply. 

I would say 2 or 3 days tops. I think we can narrow it down because she was originally a case that was drop on him as the episode started, it wasn't like he wasn't socializing with her, plus she had a week before she had to testify and she didn't while she was with Sonny leading up to marriage.

Edited July 22, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

6 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

I would say 2 or 3 days tops. I think we can narrow it down because she was originally a case that was drop on him as the episode started, it wasn't like he wasn't socializing with her, plus she had a week before she had to testify and she didn't while she was with Sonny leading up to marriage.

This could very well be true, lol! It was definitely “whirlwind”!  I was thinking the week or two included the time up to the actual marriage ceremony...as I do think that was longer than 2 or 3 days. 

[Tom]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan:

 

Yeah, I think they set up an elongated out story arc with Caitlin to try and get back some ratings (being up against Dallas for any show at that time, was probably not great). I think it was always the plan to eventually include her demise, but it wasn’t going to all be in one episode.

Although Caitlin “technically” was in more episodes than Theresa, it was definitely implied that Crockett had known & been dating Theresa longer than the couple episodes we as viewers got to see her in. He literally just met and decided to get married to Caitlin within like a couple weeks...so it just came off ridiculous to me, and unrealistic. 

However, as I’ve said before they actually became more “realistic” with their marriage, how their careers affected it & how it started falling apart...almost from the beginning. 

Speaking of unrealistic… be happy that they did not cram the get-to-know, marriage AND death into one episode!