Episode #76 "Like A Hurricane"

[ViceFanMan]

21 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Hopefully we're in  reasonable agreement about the likely temporary  nature of the Caitlin marriage  if fate in the form of Hackman hadn't intervened  I don't see Sonny cut out for a long term serious relationship   for the reasons mentioned above! I often wonder what would have happened to him if  we'd seen further than Freefall.  That  episode ended on a bleak note, I thought, for all the joking and camaraderie. A sort of  sad and serious conclusion.

I think we’re in agreement...their marriage was on the rocks even before Hackman killed Caitlin. I think Sonny could have eventually had a serious relationship, even by the time he knew Caitlin. He wasn’t the same Crockett he was in say Season 1. But, their whirlwind “romance” was so ridiculously rushed, and they barely knew each other or how their careers ultimately affected the other one, that it was doomed almost from the get. 

I still say Gina was the best woman for Crockett in the long-run. She understood Crockett (probably better than he understood himself), understood the job & it’s demands...as she had to perform them herself. 

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I still say Gina was the best woman for Crockett in the long-run. She understood Crockett (probably better than he understood himself), understood the job & it’s demands...as she had to perform them herself. 

Added to the fact she wanted but wouldn't insist on a "long term serious relationship":) She accepted Sonny on his own terms which was a plus. Unfortunately he never seemed to appreciate  this sufficiently and undervalued  her accordingly.

[ViceFanMan]

31 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Here's where I disagree with you.  I believe Crockett absolutely did have PTSD after the series of events:  seeing Caitlin killed by Hackman right in front of him--knowing he himself was the reason Hackman was walking around as a free man; later, learning Caitlin was pregnant when she died; then, violating his code as a police officer by hunting Hackman down to take personal vengeance on him, and killing him (even if Hackman had a gun on him, it was never shown that he pulled the gun on Sonny first).  While still emotionally spent, Crockett returns to work and is injured in the boat explosion.  He awakens in an apparent medical facility, being examined by a man who seems to be a physcian.  We don't get any details or confirmation that he's receiving actual medical care.  He asks who he is and is told he is probably a drug dealer.

Yes, Burnett was a fake identity, but at various times Crockett has said in the past that sometimes during an undercover assignment, he wakes up and "wonders who he is".  His undercover identity can at times become blurred with his real self.  So, in a weakened and amnesiac state (no evidence is ever shown that while living as Burnett during this sequence, he realizes that he is actually a cop), he does assume that identity--Burnett, the drug dealer.  This is a harder-edged Burnett than we've ever seen, and in fact for me his transformation into master criminal was a bit hard to believe, since Burnett had previously been portrayed as a bit of a good ol' boy, albeit serious about his transportation "business."  He took on that identity not because he lost his mind, but as a survival mechanism after finding himself in completely strange and possibly hostile surroundings, with his only contacts being people he didn't know and couldn't trust.  I maintain that if he'd awakened in a real hospital, with friends around him and his identity known, he wouldn't have experienced that psychic break. 

I see some of what you’re saying (although whether we like it or not the gun-scene with Hackman makes it a justifiable shoot...and Sonny hesitates some before shooting. He couldn’t just walk up & pull the trigger). 

But, I do think he had serious depression, burnout, and anger...perhaps some PTSD, but that’s debatable. Regardless, the character of Burnett was always fake & an act. It was never real with Sonny, he knew that. Even if he had a head injury from the boat explosion & had temporary amnesia (literally not knowing who you are or where you came from)...turning him into the drug-thug killer was ridiculous.

Edited April 3, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Added to the fact she wanted but wouldn't insist on a "long term serious relationship":) She accepted Sonny on his own terms which was a plus. Unfortunately he never seemed to appreciate  this sufficiently and undervalued  her accordingly.

Amen!! 

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Added to the fact she wanted but wouldn't insist on a "long term serious relationship":) She accepted Sonny on his own terms which was a plus. Unfortunately he never seemed to appreciate  this sufficiently and undervalued  her accordingly.

However, there was always some attraction and deeper affection for both of them...even when he was technically with Caitlin. I don’t know if it was planned, or DJ & Saundra naturally had it, but the spark was definitely still there in eye contact and looks, and even the way they spoke. 

[vicegirl85]

8 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

Added to the fact she wanted but wouldn't insist on a "long term serious relationship":) She accepted Sonny on his own terms which was a plus. Unfortunately he never seemed to appreciate  this sufficiently and undervalued  her accordingly.

I agree that he didn't appreciate Gina and her feelings sufficiently and that he undervalued her accordingly.  But for me what I saw in their relationship was that Gina wanted (during S1) their relationship to continue and even to become exclusive, while Sonny was reluctant to move forward with Gina because he believed he would end up hurting her.  For me, he didn't want to become serious about a woman he really cared for, because he had guilt feelings over the failure of his marriage and he didn't want to hurt another woman.  True that it was implied he was serious about Brenda, but it was hard to see why, since we were never shown any reason for them getting together besides sexual attraction.

From my perception, after the Brenda episode, Gina moved to distance herself sexually from Sonny for her own self-protection and self-respect.

Gina may well have continued to make herself available to him from time to time until Caitlin came along (but I never saw evidence of a continued intimate relationship portrayed within the show), but I do think she was looking for something permanent, as she believed Sean Carroon was offering her, for example.

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

However, there was always some attraction and deeper affection for both of them...even when he was technically with Caitlin. I don’t know if it was planned, or DJ & Saundra naturally had it, but the spark was definitely still there in eye contact and looks, and even the way they spoke. 

I agree. He was always concerned about her and his hugs looked genuine, where they didn't really with Trudy. But.....he had plenty chances to take it to a deeper level and backed off from doing it. I'll swear he felt more  for his son and Tubbs. Tbh I think DJ is like that in real life too. The people who matter to him seem to be his kids  rather than any women. I'm wondering why, here (when I should be getting to bed  ) and maybe it's because male colleagues and children don't expect or demand exactly the same commitment as an adult female wife/serious girlfriend. The former ones wouldn't expect any relinquishment of that sense of self or compromise whereas with the latter, it would be inevitable. What an interesting discussion! Must be off to bed now though- it's midnight here and my laptop might turn into a pumpkin

[ViceFanMan]

46 minutes ago, wolfie1996 said:

I agree. He was always concerned about her and his hugs looked genuine, where they didn't really with Trudy. But.....he had plenty chances to take it to a deeper level and backed off from doing it. I'll swear he felt more  for his son and Tubbs. Tbh I think DJ is like that in real life too. The people who matter to him seem to be his kids  rather than any women. I'm wondering why, here (when I should be getting to bed  ) and maybe it's because male colleagues and children don't expect or demand exactly the same commitment as an adult female wife/serious girlfriend. The former ones wouldn't expect any relinquishment of that sense of self or compromise whereas with the latter, it would be inevitable. What an interesting discussion! Must be off to bed now though- it's midnight here and my laptop might turn into a pumpkin

Lol! I think Crockett ultimately did care most about his son, but I think that was about guilt for not being around more when Billy was younger. But, I do think Sonny was wanting a serious relationship...but his job was always interfering. But, that’s why I think Gina was best for him...she understood & even did the job herself. But, after the different writers & producers forced that change, they ultimately never got back together. However, there was still some kind of attraction and/or proverbial spark between them throughout the show, that seemed genuine and real. I really wish they’d of had them, or definitely hinted at them, getting back together at the end in “Freefall”. But, that’s just me.  Sleep well!  

Edited April 3, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[RedDragon86]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

No one knows how long he knew Caitlin. Vice was always fluid when it came to time, and if anyone thinks a Federal racketeering case could proceed in a week they clearly have issues we can't deal with here.

Sonny was never psycho as Burnett...he was methodical. VERY methodical.

Sonny?

Edited April 4, 2021 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

If Sonny wanted to break free from the undercover stuff, he needed to be with someone other than Gina. Gina was a direct link to that life, and always would be so long as they were both on the force. I will remain in the minority here, but I think they would have been a horrible couple for any number of reasons.

1 minute ago, RedDragon86 said:

Sonny?

Yes. They kept the timeline very hazy.

[RedDragon86]

4 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Totally agree about Caitlin...he basically knew her less than a week, lol!  All of that—Caitlin, Burnett saga, etc...were all ridiculous, over-the-top, shock-value storylines to try and get back viewers. It all backfired...and sadly helped further the show’s demise. Amnesia is one thing...but I think the majority of fans didn’t like the “destruction” of the character of Crockett, by making him a killer thug—then we’re supposed to just pretend like it didn’t happen a few episodes later. 

It just felt forced didn't it.

Edited April 4, 2021 by RedDragon86

[RedDragon86]

1 minute ago, Robbie C. said:

If Sonny wanted to break free from the undercover stuff, he needed to be with someone other than Gina. Gina was a direct link to that life, and always would be so long as they were both on the force. I will remain in the minority here, but I think they would have been a horrible couple for any number of reasons.

Yes. They kept the timeline very hazy.

The timeline of him knowing her was surely the beginning of this episode, on a personal level.

[RedDragon86]

Sonny was never going to settle down after Caroline, maybe in his 50s or 60s.

When he accepts the divorce with Caroline in the car and sets out to kill Calderone he was always suppose to be a one night stand man the entire run of the series, what happened after was out of character.

Edited April 4, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

31 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

It just felt forced didn't it.

Definitely! From the time they first met to when they decided to get married, Crockett and Caitlin basically knew each other & about a week’s time...it was ridiculous! Now, although time frames with MV could sometimes be “fluid”, this was basically portrayed as such with them. However, we could probably supposedly say the actual marriage ceremony was later...but only maybe a month or two. It was ridiculously forced as a desperate attempt for a ratings boost, and you could tell. It failed. 

31 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

If Sonny wanted to break free from the undercover stuff, he needed to be with someone other than Gina. Gina was a direct link to that life, and always would be so long as they were both on the force. I will remain in the minority here, but I think they would have been a horrible couple for any number of reasons.

I see what you’re saying...but in a lot of ways that is why Gina was better for Crockett. They both were in the undercover & Vice aspect of law enforcement...and I don’t think either were ready to give that up yet. Other “significant others” outside the life of an undercover cop couldn’t understand that, and expected them to change & automatically conform to what they wanted (as Caitlin did with Sonny).

But Gina understood the life & career demands. I’m probably a little bit of a “lover” rather than a “fighter” when it comes to those two...but I still think ultimately they could have gotten back together & even made a go of it if they’d of left together at the end. They’d been through so much together, understood each other better than almost (if not) everyone else, been there for each other, and I think understood how to operate with each other in or out of the job.

Edited April 4, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[wolfie1996]

8 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

Gina may well have continued to make herself available to him from time to time until Caitlin came along (but I never saw evidence of a continued intimate relationship portrayed within the show), but I do think she was looking for something permanent, as she believed Sean Carroon was offering her, for example.

I think she did. When you're as keen on a man as she was (it was very obvious) you wouldn't be able to resist it  sometimes, but she kept her dignity and self respect as you say. As a character in fact she  seemed a really nice person and attractive with it. You could tell it was a shock to he when he announced he was marrying someone else right out of the blue. She must have been wondering what this new  woman had to  offer (apart from novelty of course) that she couldn't. But she didn't have the hold on Sonny that he had on her and in the end, no woman would. We kept getting the illusion that he had really fallen for most of the women in the various liaisons but in fact when they ended, he didn't miss them either. It was only the unusual circumstances of the very swift meeting and marriage with Caitlin followed soon after by the trauma of her murder(which he felt responsible for- really he should have been in more therapy  than he was, ,because he was consumed by guilt about many incidents, another major one being Evan!!)  which affected him so badly. Sorry about that long sentence :). Gina was indeed looking for something permanent, dare I say like most women,  and Sonny knew he wouldn't be able to provide it, not just because of his failed marriage but because he  didn't look on he as romantically  as he did, someone new. He'd worked with her for  quite a long time and was too used to her. So he sort of kept her at a distance to ensure she wouldn't entertain hopes that wouldn't be realised.

[wolfie1996]

7 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Sonny was never going to settle down after Caroline, maybe in his 50s or 60s.

When he accepts the divorce with Caroline in the car and sets out to kill Calderone he was always suppose to be a one night stand man the entire run of the series, what happened after was out of character.

I think you're right. In fact a bit like DJ himself

[wolfie1996]

8 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

If Sonny wanted to break free from the undercover stuff, he needed to be with someone other than Gina. Gina was a direct link to that life, and always would be so long as they were both on the force

Ah but DID he want to break free from the under cover stuff?? If he had, he'd have done so to save his marriage- but he didn't. He saw that go to the wall because he was basically unwilling to change. Caroline had him sussed, she said he was one of the players who got high on the action. Can you see him in a tame desk job? I can't. What sickened him off wasn't the work itself, it was the realisation that it was all for nothing, that he was protecting a system that was itself  corrupt. What direction do you think he  could have taken  after the events in Freefall? Sorry I realise this quote has been inadvertently attributed to RedDragon  when it was Robbie who made the original comment!

Edited April 4, 2021 by wolfie1996
additional info

[wolfie1996]

9 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Lol! I think Crockett ultimately did care most about his son, but I think that was about guilt for not being around more when Billy was younger. But, I do think Sonny was wanting a serious relationship...but his job was always interfering. But, that’s why I think Gina was best for him...she understood & even did the job herself. But, after the different writers & producers forced that change, they ultimately never got back together. However, there was still some kind of attraction and/or proverbial spark between them throughout the show, that seemed genuine and real. I really wish they’d of had them, or definitely hinted at them, getting back together at the end in “Freefall”. But, that’s just me.  Sleep well!  

I did thanks  and came back to this very interesting discussion! Good point re the ending of Freefall. I know they're all fictitious characters but I felt very pessimistic about that  ending. There was NO indication he intended to keep any connection with any of these people he'd worked so long with, and even been in life-threatening  situations with. He had nobody else and no prospects. Why cut himself off from those he did know  and who cared about him? Same for Tubbs really  and it would have been more satisfying if at least those two had stayed together, or had some intention to!

[Mr. Calderon]

13 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

It says that him becoming that alter ego (which is forced upon him as well) is more acceptable than him becoming a tame lap dog voluntarily

I dont have any prob with caitlin. I simply HATE the burnett arch. More episodes i skip.

 

We are asking too much for a tv show. Ratings falling and universal needed to do something to fix it. If it was the best fix, thats another history. 

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Calderon said:

We are asking too much for a tv show. Ratings falling and universal needed to do something to fix it. If it was the best fix, thats another history. 

I understand your viewpoint. It failed to fix it for a number of reasons.

[Mr. Calderon]

19 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

No more ridiculous than meeting and marrying Caitlin in about 10 minutes, surely! Dramatic licence I think. Using the "balance of his mind was  disturbed" argument, as they used to say about suicides or even some violent crimes possibly. Would you have preferred   him to have been killed or imprisoned  for the  sake of realism?

Cmon...."oh..crockett married in ten minutes..."  Knowing Caitlin was the ultimate "Vice BabE", i want to know why he waited so much time...

You talk a lot about poor Caitlin. If its to spank someone, spank someone who had chosen Helena Bonham Ugly to make pair with Crockett.... In my opinion its unforgivable. Crockett in love with that eyebrow rapunzel lolol what a stupid idea..

[wolfie1996]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Calderon said:

You talk a lot about poor Caitlin. If its to spank someone, spank someone who had chosen Helena Bonham Ugly to make pair with Crockett.... In my opinion its unforgivable. Crockett in love with that eyebrow rapunzel lolol what a stupid idea..

Ms Bonham - Carter was certainly a better looking woman than Sheena Easton and had a less irritating accent too! You didn't see her at her best in MV, got better-looking as  she grew older. Caitlin was a whingy career-minded bitch  and didn't deserve Sonny.

[Mr. Calderon]

2 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Ms Bonham - Carter was certainly a better looking woman than Sheena Easton and had a less irritating accent too! You didn't see her at her best in MV, got better-looking as  she grew older. Caitlin was a whingy career-minded bitch  and didn't deserve Sonny.

"Ah she got pretty when older"...if my grampa hasnt died, he would be still alive..." lol.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Mr. Calderon

[wolfie1996]

18 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Sonny was never going to settle down after Caroline, maybe in his 50s or 60s.

When he accepts the divorce with Caroline in the car and sets out to kill Calderone he was always suppose to be a one night stand man the entire run of the series, what happened after was out of character.

I have just realised, RedDragon, that not only do you post good comments, you are also a Liverpool fan! Sincerely hope you saw that game last night where they beat Arsenal 3-0  I know, I know, off topic...

[RedDragon86]

1 minute ago, wolfie1996 said:

I have just realised, RedDragon, that not only do you post good comments, you are also a Liverpool fan! Sincerely hope you saw that game last night where they beat Arsenal 3-0  I know, I know, off topic...

Thanks, Arnold was amazing last night so too was Jota.

You a Liverpool fan?