Episode #4 "Hit List"

[vicegirl85]

34 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Let me put it this way...I don't think Crockett drank any more than the characters in Criminal Minds or Blue Bloods are shown drinking. In fact he might actually drink less than they do. We rarely see Crockett slamming multiple drinks or anything of that sort.

The impression I have of Caroline is that she would think anything aside from a glass of wine with Sunday dinner would qualify as binge drinking. She's described in the pilot script as being in her late 20s, so she's about six years younger than Sonny (give or take...which means he would have met her after he got out of the Marines). We also have to keep in mind the context of the times. In those days, grief counseling was something that happened to other people, especially if you were a cop. If you accept the 'Sonny is an avatar for UC work' model, there's simply no way they could really have him enter counseling. Even today, such services are drastically shortchanged for cops. Coming out of the sports/military culture that produced him, Sonny would see alcohol as a tool both for celebrating and dealing with grief and loss. It was also, I think, a way for him to express emotions he might otherwise not share or put on display. Don't forget, in just about every case we see him drinking to express pain about a loss, not anger or anything else. In the climate of the 80s, that was about the only way a macho main character could show pain, cry, or convey loss.

Had it been seen as a problem within the context of the time and place, I'm sure Castillo would have said something. Keep in mind, though, that in the mid-80s drinking wasn't registering as a social epidemic in the same way drugs were. Here, as just about everywhere else, Vice was a reflection of its time and place.

You're probably right about Crockett's drinking compared to the characters in some of the other shows you mention.  Nevertheless I think based on his portrayal in the show, he had a tendency to binge-drink when under stress.  Just because that was his way of coping (whether celebrating or grieving) doesn't mean he didn't have an alcohol problem.  I was an adult in the 80s and I've seen my share of people who drink to excess for whatever reason.  It's not fun to live with.  I think there's still a stigma against men expressing emotion or going to counseling if they work in a high-stress occupation.  They deal with it in other ways, sometimes by substance abuse.

I didn't know that about Caroline being that much younger--not having seen the script.  It was actually my impression that the two of them met in college and maybe she was a cheerleader or something.  A couple of years younger but not that much of a difference.  Of course that was never said, either.  Honestly I don't feel like we ever saw enough of her to say what her thoughts about drinking may have been, so you could be right.  But I never got that from watching the show. 

And of course I always thought Sonny finished college or at least four years of football... So my fannish mind may have created a past that wasn't based on direct information from the show!

[Robbie C.]

The pilot script describes Caroline as "late 20s" explicitly, and puts Sonny at 34. There's nothing in the show that suggests he finished college, and although the pilot script seems to hint that he might have the timeline it puts out doesn't line up with Vietnam at all, let alone the ribbons we're shown in Back in the World.

I based my opinion of her judgement on how she's shown in the show - very straight-laced and formal in almost every instance. Nothing about Caroline that we see suggests anything other than a typical middle class upbringing. I may be wrong, because her character was never properly developed, but that was always my takeaway.

Sure there's a social stigma against men showing emotion...my point is that it was much worse in the 1980s. Alcohol was often used on shows from that era as an enabler for men to show emotion other than anger, and Crockett certainly fits that role. It might also explain why we don't see Tubbs drinking as often. His emotion was often limited to anger, which is considered acceptable for male expression without qualifying factors.

Do I think Crockett had a drinking problem? By the narrow modern definition he might have. Would he have a problem if he toked up instead to deal with his internal pain? Or popped prescription pills for the same purpose? Had he gone to counseling the odds are very good he would have been placed on modified assignment at best, meaning the character would disappear. But if they wanted to show the consequences of UC work a drinking issue was what they had available. And of course like most things Vice we always meet Sonny in the middle of something. Maybe he was just a titanic lightweight who got totally blotto at four drinks and stopped with five. We don't know if it was really part of his daily routine. Vice jumps around so much it's hard to determine these things.

Total tangent to the episode we're discussing, I know, but still a part of how Crockett is shown to us.

[mjcmmv]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

The impression I have of Caroline is that she would think anything aside from a glass of wine with Sunday dinner would qualify as binge drinking. She's described in the pilot script as being in her late 20s, so she's about six years younger than Sonny (give or take...which means he would have met her after he got out of the Marines).

Okay, I missed this completely. I thought they met in HS or college before he left for Vietnam! 

 

Quote

We also have to keep in mind the context of the times. In those days, grief counseling was something that happened to other people, especially if you were a cop.

Yes, I totally agree with this. I had men in my family that would have died before they admitted or considered going to therapy! Crockett was proud and grew up in a rural area-his family would have certainly frowned on baring your soul to a perfect stranger! 

Quote

Coming out of the sports/military culture that produced him, Sonny would see alcohol as a tool both for celebrating and dealing with grief and loss. It was also, I think, a way for him to express emotions he might otherwise not share or put on display. Don't forget, in just about every case we see him drinking to express pain about a loss, not anger or anything else. In the climate of the 80s, that was about the only way a macho main character could show pain, cry, or convey loss.

I agree with this whole heartedly. I grew up with military men and men who were in the Police Department and Fire Department. Going to therapy was like admitting you were a freak! Crockett would never admit he was in trouble. Alcohol fixed it, so why rock the boat? 

Quote

Had it been seen as a problem within the context of the time and place, I'm sure Castillo would have said something. Keep in mind, though, that in the mid-80s drinking wasn't registering as a social epidemic in the same way drugs were. Here, as just about everywhere else, Vice was a reflection of its time and place.

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

8 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

The pilot script describes Caroline as "late 20s" explicitly, and puts Sonny at 34. There's nothing in the show that suggests he finished college, and although the pilot script seems to hint that he might have the timeline it puts out doesn't line up with Vietnam at all, let alone the ribbons we're shown in Back in the World.

I based my opinion of her judgement on how she's shown in the show - very straight-laced and formal in almost every instance. Nothing about Caroline that we see suggests anything other than a typical middle class upbringing. I may be wrong, because her character was never properly developed, but that was always my takeaway.

Sure there's a social stigma against men showing emotion...my point is that it was much worse in the 1980s. Alcohol was often used on shows from that era as an enabler for men to show emotion other than anger, and Crockett certainly fits that role. It might also explain why we don't see Tubbs drinking as often. His emotion was often limited to anger, which is considered acceptable for male expression without qualifying factors.

 

Don't forget how Crockett acted when his superiors told him he had to report to counseling. He tired to ignore the order, or defy it. He had to be dragged, kicking and screaming! The only way they got him to go was to convince him he wouldn't have a job if he didn't! 

[Robbie C.]

Just now, mjcmmv said:

Don't forget how Crockett acted when his superiors told him he had to report to counseling. He tired to ignore the order, or defy it. He had to be dragged, kicking and screaming! The only way they got him to go was to convince him he wouldn't have a job if he didn't! 

Exactly. That's part of my point. For those who might not be old enough, it was like that back in the 80s. If anything Vice understated the problem. One of the things that made Magnum PI rather unique was its willingness to have the main character accept VA counseling and refer others to it as well. You'll notice Sonny never avails himself of that, even though as a Vietnam vet it would have been available to him outside of department channels.

The only other time we really see Sonny losing it with alcohol is during the Burnett arc, when there is something seriously wrong with him. I think that gives us an interesting window into how the series used booze in relation to Sonny. He was, I think, both self-medicating and (during the Burnett arc at least) trying to get answers from himself to questions he had about who he really was. He had to numb the preconceptions and expectations to find the reality.

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, Robbie C. said:

Exactly. That's part of my point. For those who might not be old enough, it was like that back in the 80s. If anything Vice understated the problem. One of the things that made Magnum PI rather unique was its willingness to have the main character accept VA counseling and refer others to it as well. You'll notice Sonny never avails himself of that, even though as a Vietnam vet it would have been available to him outside of department channels.

The only other time we really see Sonny losing it with alcohol is during the Burnett arc, when there is something seriously wrong with him. I think that gives us an interesting window into how the series used booze in relation to Sonny. He was, I think, both self-medicating and (during the Burnett arc at least) trying to get answers from himself to questions he had about who he really was. He had to numb the preconceptions and expectations to find the reality.

I grew up in the late 60's and watched my friends and family struggle with the Viet Nam War. Then, as a health professional,  I watched my friends and family struggle with 9/11. In fact, I struggled with 9/11, but my profession urged me to ignore the stress I was feeling and concentrate on helping the stunned New Yorkers around me.

It took me a long time to appreciate the value of counseling. I can't imagine a macho individual like Crockett admitting he needed professional help. He turned to the only "drug" he knew and that was alcohol. 

[ViceFanMan]

5 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

I wasn't trying to say that DJ had a real hang over; I agree it was just DJ, adding some color to the character.

The writers did put in references to Sonny's drinking in the scripts and DJ took that fact and ran with it. As Robbie C. said, "Just think of the pilot - "I was up until 3AM trading shots of tequila with the little bozo." It was supposed to be part of Burnett's cover in the early days, I think. The hard drinking, hard driving transport guy."

Also, Caroline complains about his drinking in the pilot. 

•  

Oh, I’m assuming that Don Johnson did not have a real hangover, lol...at least not while filming.  I didn’t mean that.

However, I agree and do think he (Crockett) struggled with alcohol...especially early on. Caroline’s concerns were probably valid, and there were times he probably showed up home at all hours & possibly inebriated.

I just meant that part of the rough, stubble-faced, always tired characterization of Sonny was also supposed to be the hours and constant no-sleep of the job. But alcohol definitely figured in as well—again especially early on. I think later he was better about it and had better control.

However, he returned to it when Caitlin was killed...and even though we knew it was only going to make things worse (abuse of alcohol never fixes problems), we also understand why. But, he eventually was able to pull himself out of the bottle again, and get control of himself. 

I don’t think Crockett was addicted to alcohol, but he used it as a coping mechanism, and/or part of his Burnett cover, and this in turn affected his real life and/or family with Caroline.

[Robbie C.]

1 minute ago, mjcmmv said:

I grew up in the late 60's and watched my friends and family struggle with the Viet Nam War. Then, as a health professional,  I watched my friends and family struggle with 9/11. In fact, I struggled with 9/11, but my profession urged me to ignore the stress I was feeling and concentrate on helping the stunned New Yorkers around me.

It took me a long time to appreciate the value of counseling. I can't imagine a macho individual like Crockett admitting he needed professional help. He turned to the only "drug" he knew and that was alcohol. 

And that's the sad part. The people who most need help are often conditioned to avoid asking for it or are shunned if they do. I've lived or worked around the military the majority of my life and saw that every day.

[mjcmmv]

19 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Oh, I’m assuming that Don Johnson did not have a real hangover, lol...at least not while filming.  I didn’t mean that.

However, I agree and do think he (Crockett) struggled with alcohol...especially early on. Caroline’s concerns were probably valid, and there were times he probably showed up home at all hours & possibly inebriated.

I just meant that part of the rough, stubble-faced, always tired characterization of Sonny was also supposed to be the hours and constant no-sleep of the job. But alcohol definitely figured in as well—again especially early on. I think later he was better about it and had better control.

However, he returned to it when Caitlin was killed...and even though we knew it was only going to make things worse (abuse of alcohol never fixes problems), we also understand why. But, he eventually was able to pull himself out of the bottle again, and get control of himself. 

I don’t think Crockett was addicted to alcohol, but he used it as a coping mechanism, and/or part of his Burnett cover, and this in turn affected his real life and/or family with Caroline.

Alcohol can be an acceptable coping mechanism for stress, but not on a regular basis. .I'd like to agree with your theory and say he was strong enough to pull himself out, keeping in mind he probably would need YEARS of therapy...and meds....to become healthy again....

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

15 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

And that's the sad part. The people who most need help are often conditioned to avoid asking for it or are shunned if they do. I've lived or worked around the military the majority of my life and saw that every day.

It is sad. It's so interesting to me that we can relate and appreciate what this character went through and was feeling! Great discussion!!!

[ViceFanMan]

40 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

The pilot script describes Caroline as "late 20s" explicitly, and puts Sonny at 34. There's nothing in the show that suggests he finished college, and although the pilot script seems to hint that he might have the timeline it puts out doesn't line up with Vietnam at all, let alone the ribbons we're shown in Back in the World.

This is interesting...I’ve not actually seen the “script” of the pilot. I did not know Caroline was that much younger than Sonny?? The pilot itself, and other episodes, definitely gave me the impression they were around the same age...and nothing against Don or Belinda Montgomery, but neither looked in their 20s, and both of them looked around 30-35.   Attractive 30 year olds, by all means!  

Later in the show, in the episode (A Bullet for Crockett) when Sonny gets shot by the drug dealer’s girlfriend & we don’t know if he’ll live, he’s stated to be 35 then, by a nurse or doctor. I always assumed that Sonny and Caroline met while he was in college, playing football, and before Nam. But maybe that is not correct? 

I wonder if they changed some things from the original script, and the ages were not necessarily supposed to be stated a lot? 

[mjcmmv]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

This is interesting...I’ve not actually seen the “script” of the pilot. I did not know Caroline was that much younger than Sonny?? The pilot itself, and other episodes, definitely gave me the impression they were around the same age...and nothing against Don or Belinda Montgomery, but neither looked in their 20s, and both of them looked around 30-35.   Attractive 30 year olds, by all means!  

Later in the show, in the episode (A Bullet for Crockett) when Sonny gets shot by the drug dealer’s girlfriend & we don’t know if he’ll live, he’s stated to be 35 then, by a nurse or doctor. I always assumed that Sonny and Caroline met while he was in college, playing football, and before Nam.

 

That's exactly what I thought...

[Robbie C.]

I tend to think he met Caroline after Vietnam, and especially after he left the service. The timeline of Billy's age lines up best with that, and it also explains the old girlfriend (Barbara) who pops up. Also, if they'd met and been involved during the war I would have expected it to come up in Buddies, but it never did. The line from A Bullet for Crockett is he's "approximately 35" or some such. But the script puts his age at 34 specifically. Caroline's is just stated as late 20s.

The script of the pilot is posted online somewhere...don't remember where because I downloaded it as soon as I saw it. It's an interesting window into how Yerkovich conceived the series and possibly where he saw it going.

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Alcohol can be an acceptable coping mechanism for stress, but not on a regular basis. .I'd like to agree with your theory and say he was strong enough to pull himself out, keeping in mind he probably would need YEARS of therapy...and meds....to become healthy again....

 

Agree 100%...I work with troubled kids, and some days an ice cold beer or margarita is a nice chill-out mechanism when I get home. But, like you said...abuse, or heavy drinking on a regular basis is not good.

I like to think of Crockett as sometimes abusing or using alcohol too much as a way to cope...but he didn’t have an addictive personality. He was able to shut it down and clean himself up when necessary. 

[Robbie C.]

Just now, ViceFanMan said:

Agree 100%...I work with troubled kids, and some days an ice cold beer or margarita is a nice chill-out mechanism when I get home. But, like you said...abuse, or heavy drinking on a regular basis is not good.

I like to think of Crockett as sometimes abusing or using alcohol too much as a way to cope...but he didn’t have an addictive personality. He was able to shut it down and clean himself up when necessary. 

That was always my take as well. He got it out when he thought he needed it, and put it away as soon as the moment passed.

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

Agree 100%...I work with troubled kids, and some days an ice cold beer or margarita is a nice chill-out mechanism when I get home. But, like you said...abuse, or heavy drinking on a regular basis is not good.

I like to think of Crockett as sometimes abusing or using alcohol too much as a way to cope...but he didn’t have an addictive personality. He was able to shut it down and clean himself up when necessary. 

That's the way I want to think about my heroes! They can overcome obstacles that threaten them in ways that inspire us!! 

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, mjcmmv said:

That's the way I want to think about my heroes! They can overcome obstacles that threaten them in ways that inspire us!! 

Exactly! I’m a person that doesn’t like not being in control of myself—or being controlled by someone/something. I could easily become an alcoholic or go back to smoking (quit over 18 years ago) if I chose to do that. I choose not to, as I know where that’ll end up. 

I view Crockett kind of the same...he doesn’t like not being in control of himself, and even when he “stumbles” and makes some wrong choices, he’s able to stop and pick himself back up & fix it. 

We don’t always have control over what happens in our lives...but we do have control over how we approach or deal with those things. 

 

[ViceFanMan]

Adding to my post above, personally I have God, family, friends, I run, my Camaro...and of course MV  to help cope with life. But, the first one provided the others.  I don’t need or want drugs or abuse of alcohol to deal with problems. They’re all still going to be there afterwards...and probably bigger & worse than before.

[mjcmmv]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Exactly! I’m a person that doesn’t like not being in control of myself—or being controlled by someone/something. I could easily become an alcoholic or go back to smoking (quit over 18 years ago) if I chose to do that. I choose not to, as I know where that’ll end up. 

I view Crockett kind of the same...he doesn’t like not being in control of himself, and even when he “stumbles” and makes some wrong choices, he’s able to stop and pick himself back up & fix it. 

We don’t always have control over what happens in our lives...but we do have control over how we approach or deal with those things. 

 

Absolutely! I'm attracted to this type of hero.Lot's of flaws and lots of emotional baggage. He starts off in life with one hand tied behind his back, and he still makes it work!!

[mjcmmv]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

Adding to my post above, personally I have God, family, friends, I run, my Camaro...and of course MV  to help cope with life. But, the first one provided the others.  I don’t need or want drugs or abuse of alcohol to deal with problems. They’re all still going to be there afterwards...and probably bigger & worse than before.

I hear you, ViceFanMan! We're on the same page!

[mjcmmv]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

And that's the sad part. The people who most need help are often conditioned to avoid asking for it or are shunned if they do. I've lived or worked around the military the majority of my life and saw that every day.

I had someone very close to me who resisted therapy and suffered from anxiety all his life. I remember hearing his father make fun of therapists, even though his other son was a Clinical Psychologist! Police and Fireman-they see seeking therapy as a weakness. 

[ViceFanMan]

15 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

I had someone very close to me who resisted therapy and suffered from anxiety all his life. I remember hearing his father make fun of therapists, even though his other son was a Clinical Psychologist! Police and Fireman-they see seeking therapy as a weakness. 

Yeah, that’s the old “locker room” b.s. mentality. Choosing positive and/or healthy coping skills (such as therapy or counseling) is never a weakness! It’s intelligence and even strength to seek help and assistance if needed. Personally I’d get Christian counseling, but that’s me. There are many types of therapy and counseling. 

To pretend we’re so awesome and never need help, and we can handle anything, is actually a sign of weakness or fear, that we’re trying to cover up!  We think we’re being all macho and ‘cool’, and no one will know. But, to me it screams insecurity, fear of not being accepted, and not being good enough.

Old stereotypes that if you get help you’re crazy or weak, is what prevents people from getting positive help they could use if needed. We don’t always need therapy for any & everything that happens...but in Sonny’s situation he could have used some.  All of the MV characters could have benefited from counseling, lol! 

[mjcmmv]

5 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

We don’t always need therapy for any & everything that happens...but in Sonny’s situation he could have used some.  All of the MV characters could have benefited from counseling, lol! 

For sure!!

In Season 5, it seemed as if he'd found a therapist he could relate to, but I'm afraid it may have been too late for him. He was a burned--out cop who didn't have a wife, a family, and other than Rico, a friend he could rely on.

Sonny Crockett was such a tragic figure! Even though he was a fictional character, I really wanted to find a way to fix him! 

Goes to show how powerful the writing was for this show! Not to mention the acting...

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, mjcmmv said:

For sure!!

In Season 5, it seemed as if he'd found a therapist he could relate to, but I'm afraid it may have been too late for him. He was a burned--out cop who didn't have a wife, a family, and other than Rico, a friend he could rely on.

Sonny Crockett was such a tragic figure! Even though he was a fictional character, I really wanted to find a way to fix him! 

Goes to show how powerful the writing was for this show! Not to mention the acting...

The writing towards the end was pretty pathetic...but, there were a few amazing moments too. The actors are the only reason the show lasted through the last season. 

Crockett was tragic in some ways...but he’d come around and matured towards the end. I still say he had Gina, too. He was burnt out with the job, yes, but he was past Caitlin’s ordeal. He also had Billy, who he’d reconnected & formed new bonds with.

Instead of the stupidity of Sonny just walking away, and not knowing what happened to him...he could have left Miami but relocated closer to Billy and still worked in law enforcement but something less dangerous and time consuming than Vice work—and Gina could have joined him (whether right away or eventually), and eventually married him. 

[mjcmmv]

13 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

The writing towards the end was pretty pathetic...but, there were a few amazing moments too. The actors are the only reason the show lasted through the last season. 

Crockett was tragic in some ways...but he’d come around and matured towards the end. I still say he had Gina, too. He was burnt out with the job, yes, but he was past Caitlin’s ordeal. He also had Billy, who he’d reconnected & formed new bonds with.

Instead of the stupidity of Sonny just walking away, and not knowing what happened to him...he could have left Miami but relocated closer to Billy and still worked in law enforcement but something less dangerous and time consuming than Vice work—and Gina could have joined him (whether right away or eventually), and eventually married him. 

I agree, for sure. I imagined Crockett and Gina getting together so many times!! She understood him! Glad you feel the same!

The writers surprisingly  ignored the rest of the cast in Freefall, and that really made me mad. So unfair to the Fans, the actors and the story itself. 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by mjcmmv