Crockett, Hackman and the Cross

[Bren10]

Playing devil's advocate...

 

At 2:33 Sonny looks as if he is contemplating options on how to leave the scene.

At 2:40 there is a (possible) cut/jumpcut.  We do not know exactly how much time passed within that window or what Sonny may have been doing.  It is possible he could have planted the gun within that time.  It has been said that this was intentional.  But in that cut is where the question lies.  If you believe that Sonny was capable of killing in cold blood at this point, then it's plausible he would make the plant.

[airtommy]

14 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

 It is possible he could have planted the gun within that time.  It has been said that this was intentional.  But in that cut is where the question lies.  If you believe that Sonny was capable of killing in cold blood at this point, then it's plausible he would make the plant.

Yes, Sonny could have turned around and gone back to plant the gun.  But if that's what they wanted us to think, they would have shown it.  The idea that Crockett planted the gun is 100% fan fiction.  Somewhat plausible fan fiction, but not even a tiny chance that is what the director was trying to convey.

 

[Bren10]

I suggest the notes here:

http://miamivice.wikia.com/wiki/Deliver_Us_from_Evil

No, they would not have shown it if they wanted to keep the situation ambiguous.  That's the point.  What the director was trying to convey is irrelevant because this situation was out of the director's hands here.  It was a network decision with NBC.

[ViceFanMan]

16 minutes ago, airtommy said:

Yes, Sonny could have turned around and gone back to plant the gun.  But if that's what they wanted us to think, they would have shown it.  The idea that Crockett planted the gun is 100% fan fiction.  Somewhat plausible fan fiction, but not even a tiny chance that is what the director was trying to convey.

 

Exactly...there is no time in between scenes or anything where Crockett could have planted the gun. He shoots, lowers his gun while saying “wrong” (snide response to something Hackman had said), turns, and then walks away. There was never any indication that Crockett planted the gun...Hackman had it the entire time, and that’s what was shown. 

[Bren10]

The shot of Sonny turning and leaving is not continuous.

Sonny lowers his gun and thinks

He exits the frame.  There is a cut.

And then we see him walking off.

Why not simply show him turn and walk away in one motion?  That would not have been difficult  They had to make a whole other setup just to film him walking.  There IS potential time there between when he clears the frame and when he actually walks away.  It doesn't have to be a lot of time either.  How long would it take to place the gun?  The scenario is possible.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Bren10

[airtommy]

1 minute ago, Bren10 said:

The shot of Sonny turning and leaving is not continuous.

Sonny lowers his gun and thinks

He exits the frame.  There is a cut.

He doesn't just "exit the frame".  He turns his body and begins moving away from Hackman toward the water.

[Bren10]

He moves to his right and away which is where he would have to go to plant the weapon in Hackman's left hand.  He would go right and walk around the lounge chair and put it in his hand.  Was Hackman left handed idk?  

I'm not arguing btw.  I think this is a fun conversation of what ifs.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Bren10

[ViceFanMan]

7 minutes ago, airtommy said:

He doesn't just "exit the frame".  He turns his body and begins moving away from Hackman toward the water.

Exactly...his body turns, there is no time to plant anything, nor is that implied or shown. The scene is continual enough. There is nothing to indicate time to do that. Again...he shoots, lowers his gun, his body does turn away, and he walks away. 

 

[Bren10]

Let me ask this: was there any way Sonny was walking away leaving Hackman alive and just hanging out?  If he hadn't been armed would Sonny just have gave him a stern talking to?  If the answer is no then it's a happy accident that Hackman was armed anyway.  In other words we still wind up in the same place , gun or no gun, with Sonny's intent to kill.

[ViceFanMan]

10 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

He moves to his right and away which is where he would have to go to plant the weapon in Hackman's left hand.  He would go right and walk around the lounge chair and put it in his hand.  Was Hackman left handed idk?  

I'm not arguing btw.  I think this is a fun conversation of what ifs.

I might not sure there was any specific way to turn to plant anything...he was right in front of Hackman...but you’re right, a fun conversation or debate is always interesting.  I need to get out my original airing and see if it’s same as the syndicated version...which is what the official DVDs used. 

[Bren10]

He would turn in a U shaped path to use Hackman's left hand.  But like I said , there's no way Sonny makes his way out there only to be turned around by a gloating Hackman.  Ol' Hack's fate was pretty much sealed, plant or no plant.

[ViceFanMan]

39 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Let me ask this: was there any way Sonny was walking away leaving Hackman alive and just hanging out?  If he hadn't been armed would Sonny just have gave him a stern talking to?  If the answer is no then it's a happy accident that Hackman was armed anyway.  In other words we still wind up in the same place , gun or no gun, with Sonny's intent to kill.

 

27 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

He would turn in a U shaped path to use Hackman's left hand.  But like I said , there's no way Sonny makes his way out there only to be turned around by a gloating Hackman.  Ol' Hack's fate was pretty much sealed, plant or no plant.

 I do believe that originally and initially Crockett was so enraged with grief over what Hackman had done, that he did intend to go find him and kill him.  However, once he found him there actually was some hesitation on Crocketts part, then...when he first pulled his gun.

He could’ve just pulled it out, shot Hackman’s head off, and walked away then. But he actually does stop and hesitate for a few seconds while Hackman says his usual stupid crap. It gives strong indication that ultimately Sonny did hesitate before just shooting Hackman in cold blood, even though he wanted to. It was only after he saw Hackman had a gun out that Crockett was able to finally shoot.

 Basically Crockett was standing in front of/slightly over Hackman.  He wouldn’t need to  turn any direction in order to supposedly plant anything. He  basically would take one or two steps forward, if that, lean down and plant the gun in Hackman’s hand, lean back up, and then turn whichever direction and walk away.

However none of that happened, nor was indicated, implied, nor was shown. That scenario is total 100% fiction, and a what-if created as an “alternate” ending. airtommy was right, the writers and director did not convey any of that. They meant for you to think for a few moments that Crockett actually did shoot Hackman in cold blood for revenge. However, once you saw the gun in Hackman‘s hand, you knew that it ultimately was in self-defense. 

 For fun, I’m going to have to get out my original airing of this episode and watch this scene on that. I want to see if it differs at all from the syndicated/rerun version which is what the official DVD sets used. 

[Bren10]

Cool.  I don't think I've ever seen that.  If possible, you should post a side by side comparison vid.

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Cool.  I don't think I've ever seen that.  If possible, you should post a side by side comparison vid.

 LOL, I’m not sure I’m tech enough or good enough to figure out how to do that but I can try at some point. 

[Bren10]

Sonny tells him to get up first but Hackman frustrates him by refusing.  What if he did get up?  Was he hoping they'd duel with pistols?  Or was he just going to shoot him back down?  Or maybe a beating first then shot?  

Sonny was not on Hackman's left side when he shot him, but that is the side the gun is on.  Sonny is at the foot and to Hackman's right in the Chez Lounge.  That means Sonny would have to turn around and walk several steps around because Hackman is laying down.  It's not a normal chair that you just reach over.

[timm525]

For the sake of arguement and some logic here, is it really conceivable to believe Crockett went there to apprehend him?

A few points for consideration:

• Wasn't Hackman on some island outside US jurisdiction, certainly outside Florida for a Sheriff's deputy from Dade County?
• Wouldn't there be lots of paperwork for him to go there legally for the intention of arresting him?
• Wouldn't the locals need to be involved (for an arrest on their soil by an outside law enforcement agent) even if on Hackman's payroll?
• Would Castillo condone him going alone, outside their jurisdiction, to apprehend a known cop killer, to apprehend alone the guy that killed his pregnant wife and unborn child? With no back up?
• Crockett's bringing the cross and giving it back to Hackman was proof of premeditated murder. IMHO
• Even if he had planted the gun to say it was self defense, how would he legally be able to explain the above.

Nope, he went there with the intention of killing him in cold blood and that's exactly what he did. He was over the edge and taking justice in his own hands. This played very nicely in to the Brunette trilogy and to his emotional state.

Not that I blame him for killing Hackman, if he did that to my wife and child (or in my case, my cat) I'd hunt the somebitch down like the terminator killing him anywhere I found him and by any means , but that's just me. 

[Bren10]

And so Sonny does just what he warned Tubbs against doing.  "When it gets personal it gets messy".  Does this change your opinions on Sonny?  Does getting amnesia forgive this?  Once Sonny recovers from being Burnett could he repeat something like the Hackman situation?  Really puts a different perspective on things.

[jpaul1]

42 minutes ago, timm525 said:

For the sake of arguement and some logic here, is it really conceivable to believe Crockett went there to apprehend him?

A few points for consideration:

• Wasn't Hackman on some island outside US jurisdiction, certainly outside Florida for a Sheriff's deputy from Dade County?
• Wouldn't there be lots of paperwork for him to go there legally for the intention of arresting him?
• Wouldn't the locals need to be involved (for an arrest on their soil by an outside law enforcement agent) even if on Hackman's payroll?
• Would Castillo condone him going alone, outside their jurisdiction, to apprehend a known cop killer, to apprehend alone the guy that killed his pregnant wife and unborn child? With no back up?
• Crockett's bringing the cross and giving it back to Hackman was proof of premeditated murder. IMHO
• Even if he had planted the gun to say it was self defense, how would he legally be able to explain the above.

Nope, he went there with the intention of killing him in cold blood and that's exactly what he did. He was over the edge and taking justice in his own hands. This played very nicely in to the Brunette trilogy and to his emotional state.

Not that I blame him for killing Hackman, if he did that to my wife and child (or in my case, my cat) I'd hunt the somebitch down like the terminator killing him anywhere I found him and by any means , but that's just me. 

this is interesting but it could also have been because of that paperwork, and an ops inside an enemy (corrupted) territory, that Crockett decided to bypass all that s.. and do the thing illegally. not killing him, but going direct to the point and arrest him. i go there incognito, i scare the bastard, and bring that son on US soil to be judged. then the no from Hackman creates a kind of boiling inside Crockett's head where he's confused about what to do, and he press the trigger. maybe because he is simply scared to be shot in the back by that first class bastard. but could also be i saved you from death you scum...e, now i take back what i offered to you. no escape now. an error, certainly but comprehensible in a quick thinking situation. but the conversation with ViceFanMan is funny actually. it makes me think of two guys watching a cloud. and one says can you see the unicorn, the other says yeah that's a nice alligator, you know

Edited November 14, 2018 by jpm1

[Bren10]

Interesting, Sonny could rationalize that he is simply fulfilling the original death sentence he once saved Hackman from.  Sonny didn't exactly go by the book on that either.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, timm525 said:

For the sake of arguement and some logic here, is it really conceivable to believe Crockett went there to apprehend him?

A few points for consideration:

• Wasn't Hackman on some island outside US jurisdiction, certainly outside Florida for a Sheriff's deputy from Dade County?
• Wouldn't there be lots of paperwork for him to go there legally for the intention of arresting him?
• Wouldn't the locals need to be involved (for an arrest on their soil by an outside law enforcement agent) even if on Hackman's payroll?
• Would Castillo condone him going alone, outside their jurisdiction, to apprehend a known cop killer, to apprehend alone the guy that killed his pregnant wife and unborn child? With no back up?
• Crockett's bringing the cross and giving it back to Hackman was proof of premeditated murder. IMHO
• Even if he had planted the gun to say it was self defense, how would he legally be able to explain the above.

Nope, he went there with the intention of killing him in cold blood and that's exactly what he did. He was over the edge and taking justice in his own hands. This played very nicely in to the Brunette trilogy and to his emotional state.

Not that I blame him for killing Hackman, if he did that to my wife and child (or in my case, my cat) I'd hunt the somebitch down like the terminator killing him anywhere I found him and by any means , but that's just me. 

 I do think that Crockett originally most likely went there with the intention of killing Hackman in cold blood. It probably was originally premeditated. However, once Sonny got there and things progressed, he ultimately did not just up and shoot him in cold blood as originally planned. There was hesitation there...giving strong indication that Crockett had not totally lost-it...yet. That would come a few episodes later. 

However, whatever the case…ultimately Hackman did have a gun, that was not planted, and Crockett was able to actually shoot him in self-defense. It ended up being justified, whether or not Sonny originally intended it to be. 

[Bren10]

Nice little clip

 

 

[ViceFanMan]

11 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Nice little clip

 

 

Cool!  Seemed to take the guy in that video a lot longer to walk up to the house, than it did Crockett.  

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, Bren10 said:

Nice little clip

 

 

while watching this i realised that the ending ambiguity is strongly related to the episode title. maybe they wanted to underline once more the same thing already evocated in Out where buses don't run, while not shocking too much DJ fans. by creating a faux-fuyant (eluding in english)

Edited November 14, 2018 by jpm1

[ViceFanMan]

19 hours ago, jpm1 said:

 the conversation with ViceFanMan is funny actually. it makes me think of two guys watching a cloud. and one says can you see the unicorn, the other says yeah that's a nice alligator, you know

More like one guy is trying to pretend they see a cloud, when there’s actually no cloud at all.  

3 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Nice little clip

 

 

Do we know who did this video...fans?

[Bren10]

The user looks to be robbgill.  An email address is given at cglide@floridamovielocations.org.  Don't know if that helps.