Episode #25 "Out Where The Buses Don't Run"

[mjcmmv]

7 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

i didn't understand half of the thing, but thanks for the like

If you mean my 'like', sorry if I wasn't clear! Loved your comments, for sure! 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by mjcmmv

[Robbie C.]

I don't think his conscience drove him crazy. I think seeing Arcaro walk pushed him over the edge he'd likely been skirting for some time. He was put on medical leave before the acquittal, so he was already well on the way to crazy town before Arcaro walked. And the accident theory doesn't explain the paper in Arcaro's hand. No, I think he planned the whole thing, although it's very debatable if he was sane when he planned it. The fact that the building was being demolished meant the body would be found in any case, and what better way for him to go out than to bring Arcaro in again? And if he could take down some of Arcaro's old henchmen in the process...so much the better. He'd have no reason to interrogate Arcaro. Why would Weldon grab Arcaro if he wasn't going to kill him?

[Dadrian]

Man. This prequel is really brewing.  

[mjcmmv]

I agree that seeing Arcaro walk pushed Weldon over the edge, but killing Arcaro went against everything he stood for. Just like it did for Crockett when he killed Hackman in cold blood-for those of us who believed that he did.

But I think Weldon's conscience got the better of him and he was tortured by what he had done. He turned to Crockett (more than Tubbs) in a hope he'd relate and understand why he did what he did.

Crockett sympathized, but still couldn't bring himself to condone Weldon's actions.  Later on, when he was faced with the decision to kill Hackman, he understood.

So many clues to what Crockett would have to face in the future. 

 

[Robbie C.]

Except Hank had his break before he killed Arcaro. And I don’t think we know enough about him to make a direct Crockett comparison. Personally I think it’s easier to draw parallels between Sonny and Artie Rollins. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Robbie C.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

I agree that seeing Arcaro walk pushed Weldon over the edge, but killing Arcaro went against everything he stood for. Just like it did for Crockett when he killed Hackman in cold blood-for those of us who believed that he did.

But I think Weldon's conscience got the better of him and he was tortured by what he had done. He turned to Crockett (more than Tubbs) in a hope he'd relate and understand why he did what he did.

Crockett sympathized, but still couldn't bring himself to condone Weldon's actions.  Later on, when he was faced with the decision to kill Hackman, he understood.

So many clues to what Crockett would have to face in the future. 

 

First...Sonny did not kill Hackman in cold blood! He initially set out to—but unlike Hank with Arcaro, he ultimately did/could not do it. It’s only after he sees Hackman hiding a gun & trying to shoot him first, did Crockett finally feel & know he was justified in killing him. Sonny and Hank were not the same, and I don’t think this really had anything to do with Sonny and his future altercation with Frank Hackman.

Hank Weldon snapped and killed Arcaro...how, we don’t exactly know?? He could have shot him, or he could have knocked him out someway—or tortured him & then imprisoned him in the wall. The mummified body of Arcaro doesn’t really give a definite indication for exact cause of death. Whatever the case, Weldon and his partner chose to wall Arcaro up in the old abandoned building, rather than trying to dispose of the body some other way. 

I think Hank knew what he’d done was wrong, and against everything he’d stood for...he basically lowered himself to Arcaro’s level, and his mind couldn’t handle that. He then created an “alternate reality” to be able to cope with what he’d done...where Arcaro wasn’t really dead & was secretly still alive. But, ultimately he ends up exposing what had really happened.

Whether Hank finally realized what he’d truly done & the finale was his own whacked-out way of surrendering himself...or if he was still caught up in his bizarre, fantasy hero-world & thought Arcaro was still alive and he’d actually finally caught him...not really sure?

Whatever the case...superb, amazing episode!! It was listed in a 1996 TVGuide’s top 100 episodes of television, and I believe this was based on a real-life case! 

Edited October 9, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[jpaul1]

the paper means nothing. Weldon wasn't a good cop, he was an exceptionnal cop according to Crockett. so i really don't see him going hitman. i don't remember Weldon was already facing psycological issues when the thing happened. but i still think that even with that, he couldn't have done a cold blooded murder. because the two accomplices simply don't react like murderers. murderers would be much more disturbed. especially when it was good cops. they would be sad, or anxious of being caught. which is not the case at all. Weldon partner is always very calm, not to say serene. this is not the behavior, or a person accomplice of a cold blooded murder. same for Weldon, at the end he isn't anxious, nor even sad. he knows he did something wrong, but he's not panicked. he is just happy that all this comes to an end

Edited October 9, 2019 by jpaul1

[Bren10]

A little off-topic but just want to reiterate-there's no way Sonny leaves the island with Hackman still alive. Gun or no gun. Plant or no plant. He sure as hell didn't go there to arrest him. Make of that what you will...

[mjcmmv]

6 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

First...Sonny did not kill Hackman in cold blood! He initially set out to—but unlike Hank with Arcaro, he ultimately did/could not do it. It’s only after he sees Hackman hiding a gun & trying to shoot him first, did Crockett finally feel & know he was justified in killing him. Sonny and Hank were not the same, and I don’t think this really had anything to do with Sonny and his future altercation with Frank Hackman.

 

Well, like I said, "Some of us thought Sonny killed Hackman in cold blood". That controversy has been discussed to death and I can see both points of view. For me, Sonny was pushed to the edge. He was crazy with grief over Caitlin and blamed himself for getting Hackman pardoned. Now, Hackman can't be touched and Sonny knows it.  I do believe he was justified somewhat, but like Hank, his conscience haunts him.

Sonny and Hank were two burned out cops who were broken by the system. Hank's murder of Arcaro didn't influence Sonny. I was just comparing the reasons for the paths they both took. 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

7 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Except Hank had his break before he killed Arcaro. And I don’t think we know enough about him to make a direct Crockett comparison. Personally I think it’s easier to draw parallels between Sonny and Artie Rollins. 

I agree, we don't know enough about Hank's background to compare them as individuals. But they were both undercover cops who were in despair, regardless of when their mental breakdowns took place.

I think mental breakdown and  'cowboy justice' was an ongoing theme in the show: undercover cops, breaking under the pressure of constant danger and realizing their efforts were all for nothing. Then, taking the law into their own hands, or committing suicide. It happened with Artie, Hank, Evan, Valerie, Gina to some extent, Bobby Diaz in Red Tape, the vigilante cops in Over the Line,  Marty in Borrasca, and finally, Sonny. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

1 hour ago, Bren10 said:

A little off-topic but just want to reiterate-there's no way Sonny leaves the island with Hackman still alive. Gun or no gun. Plant or no plant. He sure as hell didn't go there to arrest him. Make of that what you will...

Amen! 

[mjcmmv]

5 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

 

Hank Weldon snapped and killed Arcaro...how, we don’t exactly know?? He could have shot him, or he could have knocked him out someway—or tortured him & then imprisoned him in the wall. The mummified body of Arcaro doesn’t really give a definite indication for exact cause of death. Whatever the case, Weldon and his partner chose to wall Arcaro up in the old abandoned building, rather than trying to dispose of the body some other way. 

 

Maybe it was a memorial. "See what I did", "I took care of this scum".

If Hank didn't expose the body to Crockett and Tubbs, some day, the house would be knocked down and the body discovered. Hank just sped up the process.

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

the paper means nothing. Weldon wasn't a good cop, he was an exceptionnal cop according to Crockett. so i really don't see him going hitman. i don't remember Weldon was already facing psycological issues when the thing happened. but i still think that even with that, he couldn't have done a cold blooded murder. because the two accomplices simply don't react like murderers. murderers would be much more disturbed. especially when it was good cops. they would be sad, or anxious of being caught. which is not the case at all. Weldon partner is always very calm, not to say serene. this is not the behavior, or a person accomplice of a cold blooded murder. same for Weldon, at the end he isn't anxious, nor even sad. he knows he did something wrong, but he's not panicked. he is just happy that all this comes to an end

Wrong. The paper means everything. Especially because it was added to the scene and isn’t mentioned in the draft script at all. It frames the final scene as an act of retribution and not an accident. And Crockett’s judgement about good cops isn’t beyond question. How many of them went nuts after he said they were good cops? And he only knew Weldon by reputation. 

[mjcmmv]

2 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

Well, like I said, "Some of us thought Sonny killed Hackman in cold blood". That controversy has been discussed to death and I can see both points of view. For me, Sonny was pushed to the edge. He was crazy with grief over Caitlin and blamed himself for getting Hackman pardoned. Now, Hackman can't be touched and Sonny knows it.  I do believe he was justified somewhat, but like Hank, his conscience haunts him.

Sonny and Hank were two burned out cops who were broken by the system. Hank's murder of Arcaro didn't influence Sonny. I was just comparing the reasons for the paths they both took. 

 

I'd like to add that Sonny may have felt justified in killing Hackman because he was just carrying out an execution that was delayed because he interfered. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by mjcmmv

[ViceFanMan]

9 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

Well, like I said, "Some of us thought Sonny killed Hackman in cold blood". That controversy has been discussed to death and I can see both points of view. For me, Sonny was pushed to the edge. He was crazy with grief over Caitlin and blamed himself for getting Hackman pardoned. Now, Hackman can't be touched and Sonny knows it.  I do believe he was justified somewhat, but like Hank, his conscience haunts him.

Sonny and Hank were two burned out cops who were broken by the system. Hank's murder of Arcaro didn't influence Sonny. I was just comparing the reasons for the paths they both took. 

 

I know some like to “theorize” or more-or-less create “what-if” ideas of Crockett killing Hackman in cold blood...but that just didn’t happen. That’s not what was shown or portrayed in the episode. I think Sonny went there initially to kill Hackman...but until he saw the gun in Hackman’s hand (which clearly shows it was not done in revenge cold blood), he actually could not just shoot him. Any other supposition is just that...supposition and theories that are not accurate or shown. 

I agree, Sonny and Hank were burned out. But Crockett’s “snap” happened after a head injury causing memory loss. He was burned out yes, but if he had not been injured in the boat explosion and lost his memory for a while, I don’t believe he would have done the things he did. Weldon’s snap was his own choice, after giving into anger and obsession...we understand and sympathize, but like it or not, he still made the wrong choice—and it cost him, occupationally and psychologically. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[Bren10]

Don't want to hijack the thread with this, but Sonny clearly pulls his gun, backs up and aims at Hackman before Hackman (supposedly) pulls his own gun. Remember right before that Sonny had just handed him the crucifix so Hackman didn't have his gun at that point. We don't see it but it's possible that Hackman moving to defend himself speeds up Sonny's decision to shoot him. Even so, Hackman is a dead man walking (laying?lounging? ) as soon as Sonny walks out of the sun into view. Nothing short of Hackman blowing Sonny away as he walks up the hill or wherever he came from is going to stop what is going to happen here. The man had just murdered Sonny's wife and unborn child, in front of him no less. And after he got him off death row and after he killed innocent people in a home invasion. This guy is done, pal. Dead as fried chicken, to quote Jules from Pulp Fiction. And I understand that and I think most of the audience does too. So I don't exactly consider it cold blood.

[ViceFanMan]

20 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Don't want to hijack the thread with this, but Sonny clearly pulls his gun, backs up and aims at Hackman before Hackman (supposedly) pulls his own gun. Remember right before that Sonny had just handed him the crucifix so Hackman didn't have his gun at that point. We don't see it but it's possible that Hackman moving to defend himself speeds up Sonny's decision to shoot him. Even so, Hackman is a dead man walking (laying?lounging? ) as soon as Sonny walks out of the sun into view. Nothing short of Hackman blowing Sonny away as he walks up the hill or wherever he came from is going to stop what is going to happen here. The man had just murdered Sonny's wife and unborn child, in front of him no less. And after he got him off death row and after he killed innocent people in a home invasion. This guy is done, pal. Dead as fried chicken, to quote Jules from Pulp Fiction. And I understand that and I think most of the audience does too. So I don't exactly consider it cold blood.

I do think Crockett went there to kill Hackman. After all that’d happened, he was going to take him out. He pulls his gun and aims at Hackman, yes...but doesn’t shoot...he hesitates. He ultimately stopped himself before he made the “Hank Weldon” choice. It was only after Hackman pulled his gun out that Sonny shot.

We don’t know what would have happened if Hackman hadn’t pulled a gun...any thoughts on that are just supposition & what-if ideas. What we do know is...Sonny didn’t shoot him in cold blood. That is clearly & purposely shown. 

Sadly, Weldon didn’t stop himself before killing Arcaro. He let his obsession get the better of him. Then couldn't deal with his choice, and created a “fantasy-ideal” reality in his mind to be able to approach the situation. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by ViceFanMan

[jpaul1]

if you say Crockett murdered in cold blood, then you need to accept that Crockett hero stops right there, at that particular moment. the second he kills Hackman, Crockett stops to be a cool guy. because there's no excuse., i say NONE, to such behavior. furthermore for a cop

same logic should be applied to Weldon

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

if you say Crockett murdered in cold blood, then you need to accept that Crockett hero stops right there, at that particular moment. the second he kills Hackman, Crockett stops to be a cool guy. because there's no excuse., i say NONE, to such behavior. furthermore for a cop

same logic should be applied to Weldon

I agree...even Weldon realized this, and that’s why he can’t deal with his own choice & creates his other-reality. Real-reality was too painful & destructive for him. 

Crockett didn’t kill Hackman in cold blood. He initially planned to, but ultimately did not. He stopped himself.

[Bren10]

I'll leave it with this: if Hackman doesn't pull his gun do you think Sonny'd just slap him around like he did Glantz? Or give him a sinister speech like he did evil banker J.B. Johnston? I don't think so. He sure can't arrest him being out of jurisdiction. He may as well arrest himself if he goes that route. You say it can only be supposition on this point, Vice Fan, but I counter with there can only be but a few possibilities, most of which are very unlikely except for the one we ultimately saw-Sonny killing Hackman. I don't know why people have such a problem with this when the entire point is the fact that Sonny crosses the line as a segue to the Burnett saga.

[Robbie C.]

23 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree...even Weldon realized this, and that’s why he can’t deal with his own choice & creates his other-reality. Real-reality was too painful & destructive for him. 

Crockett didn’t kill Hackman in cold blood. He initially planned to, but ultimately did not. He stopped himself.

Except Weldon was placed on medical before Arcaro was released. He was off the reservation well before he killed Arcaro. Vice was never about good and evil. Like all Noir it was about shades of gray. If you miss that point, you miss a great deal of what made Vice unique for its time. 

[jpaul1]

this is not actually just gray. i mean cops go grey all the time, we all know this. this is about red, big red line. the line that is between cops, and structured society, and chaos, and anarchy. the line can be crossed. but if so Crockett good guy dies, and disappear. by acting like this Crockett is no better, than a criminal that will cold blood kill a kid. this is a big line. up to the fans to decide if Crockett is dumb enough to go that way. but if he does this Hackman wins, a big win. and it's a major defeat for Crockett. no, i respect any point of view out there, but you won't make be swallow that a guy like crockett is a cold blood killer. no, this is N.O.T. P.O.S.S.I.B.L.E.

Edited October 9, 2019 by jpaul1

[mjcmmv]

2 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I know some like to “theorize” or more-or-less create “what-if” ideas of Crockett killing Hackman in cold blood...but that just didn’t happen. That’s not what was shown or portrayed in the episode. I think Sonny went there initially to kill Hackman...but until he saw the gun in Hackman’s hand (which clearly shows it was not done in revenge cold blood), he actually could not just shoot him. Any other supposition is just that...supposition and theories that are not accurate or shown. 

 

You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it. I just think differently.

I believe Miami Vice liked to push the envelope and having Sonny Crockett kill Hackman would have done just that. NBC didn't think fans were ready for it. That was a shame because we would have seen a hero who was human, not a cartoon superhero who can do no wrong. I am a Sonny Crockett fan, big time and I would have had more sympathy with the character knowing what this decision must have cost him.

Now, as far as him not bringing himself to shoot Hackman until he saw the gun, why didn't we see a camera shot of Hackman pointing the gun and trying to shoot Sonny? Or at least see Sonny duck down or do one of his dives and spins to avoid being shot? We didn't even get a hint Hackman was about to shoot him. Just this dumb camera shot of a gun in Hackman's hand and Sonny walking off into the sunset. Doesn't make sense to me. 

And watch Sonny while Hackman taunts him. The gun's shaking in hand. He has conflict in his eyes at first, but gradually, his eyes harden. Then, when Hackman says 'No way would you shoot an unarmed man, etc.", Sonny carefully aims, says "Wrong." and shoots. This wasn't a man who is protecting himself. He's a man who's killing a monster. 

Like Bren said, Sonny didn't go to that island to arrest Hackman. No way was Hackman leaving his hideaway alive. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by mjcmmv

[mjcmmv]

2 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Don't want to hijack the thread with this, but Sonny clearly pulls his gun, backs up and aims at Hackman before Hackman (supposedly) pulls his own gun. Remember right before that Sonny had just handed him the crucifix so Hackman didn't have his gun at that point. We don't see it but it's possible that Hackman moving to defend himself speeds up Sonny's decision to shoot him. Even so, Hackman is a dead man walking (laying?lounging? ) as soon as Sonny walks out of the sun into view. Nothing short of Hackman blowing Sonny away as he walks up the hill or wherever he came from is going to stop what is going to happen here. The man had just murdered Sonny's wife and unborn child, in front of him no less. And after he got him off death row and after he killed innocent people in a home invasion. This guy is done, pal. Dead as fried chicken, to quote Jules from Pulp Fiction. And I understand that and I think most of the audience does too. So I don't exactly consider it cold blood.

Yea!

[mjcmmv]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

if you say Crockett murdered in cold blood, then you need to accept that Crockett hero stops right there, at that particular moment. the second he kills Hackman, Crockett stops to be a cool guy. because there's no excuse., i say NONE, to such behavior. furthermore for a cop

same logic should be applied to Weldon

There's no excuse from a legal point of view, but Sonny is "human" and every human has limits. We've had heroes in literature and movies who have done terrible deeds-much worse than a justified homicide, which I think this was-and we still consider them heroes for all the good they've done.