Episode #111 "Freefall"

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 minute ago, Tom said:

It´s not about where the show geographically began and I think you know well how that "nod" was meant. The pilot was about Calderone who was from South America and South America esp. Colombia was the origin of Miami´s drug problem and the reason the VICE department existed at all. Calderone flew often into Miami and left in the end of the pilot, didn´t he? So, it´s just logical that the finale had strong ties to that and C&T try to tackle the issue at its core, as they did in Smuggler´s blues by the way, which is deemed by many fans as one of the best and quintessential VICE episodes and has much more foreign country share than the finale.

And the finale itself started and ended in Miami and it played around 75% of its time in Miami. So I see no argument here either that the finale would not meet by your own standards defined above...

Exactly, it ties in with the facts of the real-life national drug smuggling problem, while bringing the viewer back to how it all began (even with law enforcement/government not allowing Crockett & Tubbs to really fulfill the intended object of law enforcement). Good point about 'Smuggler's Blues' as well!

[ViceFanMan]

12 minutes ago, Tom said:

It´s not about where the show geographically began and I think you know well how that "nod" was meant. The pilot was about Calderone who was from South America and South America esp. Colombia was the origin of Miami´s drug problem and the reason the VICE department existed at all. Calderone flew often into Miami and left in the end of the pilot for Colombia, didn´t he? So, it´s just logical that the finale had strong ties to that and C&T try to tackle the issue at its core, as they did in Smuggler´s blues by the way, which is deemed by many fans as one of the best and quintessential VICE episodes and has much more foreign country share than the finale.

And the finale itself ended in Miami and it played around 75% of its time in Miami. So I see no argument here either that the finale would not meet by your own standards defined above...

 Actually, it is about where the show geographically began and was mainly or primarily focused...Miami. Just because one of the drug dealers himself was from out of the country, and or was bringing some of his drugs from out of the country, doesn’t mean that’s a huge nod to where the show  was focused or was about. The drugs and/or drug wars usually ended up in Miami.  That’s where the show began, that’s where the show took place and what it was about, and I feel that’s where it should’ve ended. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 minute ago, ViceFanMan said:

True, Calderone himself was originally from Columbia, and also had residences in the Bahamas...but the threat of the drugs & even Calderone were primarily focused in Miami. Eventually C&T went to the Bahamas to take him down...but that was stemming from what he’d done in Miami (and NYC earlier).

Over the course of the show, yes there'd be times/parts of episodes where the cast would go somewhere else other than Miami—even out of the country. But, the majority of the show, and the majority of the drug dealers/drug wars the OCB fought, were focused in or around Miami...as that’s what the “core” of the show’s premise was all about. I just felt the series began in Miami, basically exploded it on the proverbial tourist popularity map, and it should have primarily ended there.

I was thinking about this the other day when 'French Twist' was brought up, and I'm glad Vice didn't have episodes based in France or Japan like it was rumored; I think that's a little too much outside the box. I definitely understand your feelings on the matter, but I personally don't mind the visits out of country (and Miami), as to me they fit with whatever particular story was being told in that episode.

[Tom]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan:

 Actually, it is about where the show geographically began and was mainly or primarily focused...Miami. Just because one of the drug dealers himself was from out of the country, and or was bringing some of his drugs from out of the country, doesn’t mean that’s a huge nod to where the show  was focused or was about. The drugs and/or drug wars usually ended up in Miami.  That’s where the show began, that’s where the show took place and what it was about, and I feel that’s where it should’ve ended. 

All drugs and the major dealers were from South America. Miami was never the source of the drug trade, it was the entry gate. It was a big topic behind the whole show, in many episodes and in the pilot (e.g. mentioned by Corky and others).

And, sorry, and this "nod" that it was about the source of drugs and not about geography of Miami was an argument that Eillio Martin´s and I used and that was what I referred to in my response -"how this nod was meant" (namely by Eillio Martin and me). Nice that you explain my own argument to me. Even if you disagree with it, you must respect that we have it. Your opinion is as good as ours.

And i don´t know why you say "where it should have ended". The show ended in Miami. Also the finale did not play most of the time in Costa Morada as you also said earlier which I proved with the 25% percentage of Costa Morada scenes. But maybe you have seen a different finale than everybody else? 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Tom

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 minute ago, Tom said:

All drugs and the major dealers were from South America. Miami was never the source of the drug trade, it was the entry gate. It was a big topic behind the whole show, in many episodes and in the pilot (e.g. mentioned by Corky and others).

And, sorry, and this "nod" was an argument that Eillio Martin´s and I used and that was what I referred to in my response -"how this nod was meant" (namely by Eillio Martin and me). Nice that you explain my own argument to me. Even if you disagree with it, you must respect that we have it. Your opinion is as good as ours.

Yeah, what Miami was was the closest and easiest locale to smuggle drugs into the states (Kansas probably isn't the way to go, and I could only imagine how it would go with Winnipeg in Canada). "Cocaine cowboys" is a good lesson on the origins of the smuggling, and what DJ said in a Rolling Stone interview about how many of the smugglers/dealers were from war-torn countries, which explains the tendency for war-like violence.

What Corky said also brings us back to the beginning, so I like how it all adds up, makes sense, and has a real-world truth to it for sure.

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

All drugs and the major dealers were from South America. Miami was never the source of the drug trade, it was the entry gate. It was a big topic behind the whole show, in many episodes and in the pilot (e.g. mentioned by Corky and others).

And, sorry, and this "nod" was an argument that Eillio Martin´s and I used and that was what I referred to in my response -"how this nod was meant" (namely by Eillio Martin and me). Nice that you explain my own argument to me. Even if you disagree with it, you must respect that we have it. Your opinion is as good as ours.

Calm yourself, lol ...just explaining why I don’t agree that the show was about all these other out-of-the-country places. Yes, a lot of the drugs originally came from out of the country...but the show was mainly focused on & about what went on with the drugs once they were in Miami (including the Pilot that started it all). That’s all.  

[Tom]

vor 1 Minute schrieb ViceFanMan:

Calm yourself, lol ...just explaining why I don’t agree that the show was about all these other out-of-the-country places. 

Calm your fantasy, LOL  We never said that "the show was about all these out of country places". This is just your imagination. Maybe you completely misunderstood. MV was about Miami of course. Our argument was that South America was the main source of the drug problem C&T dealt with and therefore an immanent "silent enemy" of them in all drug related episodes, was often referred as such in the show and was therefore a worthy starting and ending point of the show (not necessarily as a geographical location used in the pilot, but the fact that Calderone´s origin was so often mentioned).

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Just now, Tom said:

Calm your fantasy, LOL  We never said that "the show was about all these out of country places". This is just your imagination. Maybe you completely misunderstood. MV was about Miami of course. Our argument was that South America was the main source of the drug problem C&T dealt with and therefore an immanent "silent enemy" of them in all drug related episodes, was often referred as such in the show and was therefore a worthy starting and ending point of the show (not necessarily as a geographical location used in the pilot, but the fact that Calderone´s origin was so often mentioned).

"Silent enemy"; I like that (sort of how Lombard was referenced in Season 1 episodes; he was the silent enemy at home, hanging around the margins), and find that to be very true.

[ViceFanMan]

6 minutes ago, Tom said:

Calm your fantasy, LOL  We never said that "the show was about all these out of country places". This is just your imagination. Maybe you completely misunderstood. MV was about Miami of course. Our argument was that South America was the main source of the drug problem C&T dealt with and therefore an immanent "silent enemy" of them in all drug related episodes, was often referred as such in the show and was therefore a worthy starting and ending point of the show (not necessarily as a geographical location used in the pilot, but the fact that Calderone´s origin was so often mentioned).

I have no fantasy...only acknowledge what is, or isn’t.  Most of us who are old enough to remember or know the history of it, know that South America was the main source of drugs and cocaine, especially in the 80s. This is true. Of course sometimes these places would get mentioned, and even visited during the course of the show. But, even if someone mentioned them in the Pilot, it was still all about what was going on with the drugs and the drug problems in Miami. The majority of the show was also about that. I just mean that since the majority of the finale seem to take place in South America, it took away from Miami...as that geographical location was the main focus or purpose of the show. It began there...it should have mainly come to a conclusion there. 

[Tom]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan:

I have no fantasy...only acknowledge what is, or isn’t.  

You put words in our mouths that we never said. So it´s a fantasy and I pointed it out to you. No big deal but that´s what is or was. South America was always an important part of the show. Not more and not less.

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

You put words in our mouths that we never said. So it´s a fantasy and I pointed it out to you. No big deal but that´s what is or was. South America was always an important part of the show. Not more and not less.

I put no words in anyone’s mouths. Only went with what was stated. There’s no “fantasy” of anything. South America was an aspect to the show only if a certain episode’s plot included where the drugs originally came from. But, the majority of the episodes & core of the show were about what was going on with the drugs & drug dealers/business once they were in Miami. 

[Tom]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb ViceFanMan:

I put no words in anyone’s mouths. Only went with what was stated. There’s no “fantasy” of anything. South America was an aspect to the show only if a certain episode’s plot included where the drugs originally came from. But, the majority of the episodes & core of the show were about what was going on with the drugs & drug dealers/business once they were in Miami. 

Yes, you did.

Quote "....why I don’t agree that the show was about all these other out-of-the-country places." We never said that it was and I patiently explained that you are misrepresenting us. But you repeat it and you insist on it even if you are proven otherwise.

This is a good showcase why it is not possible to have a civilized and friendly discussion with you about our favorite show. I will never do that mistake again, I promise. 

You simply cannot accept other people´s opinions and even put something in their mouth or misunderstand others on purpose just to prove your point nobody even has challenged. And you will always try to have the last word here and choke everybody else with more and more of your same answers until others give up. 

That´s either pathological need for admiration or just bad character. Or both. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

Yes, you did.

Quote "....why I don’t agree that the show was about all these other out-of-the-country places." We never said that it was and I patiently explained that you are misrepresenting us. But you repeat it and you insist on it even if you are proven otherwise.

This is a good showcase why it is not possible to have a civilized and friendly discussion with you about our favorite show. I will never do that mistake again, I promise. 

You simply cannot accept other people´s opinions and even put something in their mouth or misunderstand others on purpose just to prove your point nobody even has challenged. And you will always try to have the last word here and choke everybody else with more and more of your same answers until others give up. 

That´s either pathological need for admiration or just bad character. Or both. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lol!!!  You have taken this WAY beyond what it is. That one statement I made earlier, if that’s what you’re trying to base all this on, was just a figure-of-speech of the overall meaning of what you were saying...I never said it was a direct quote from anyone!  

I always try and have a civilized or even friendly discussion on episodes...even if some of us disagree or debate on some things. It can even be fun & interesting. But, I don’t become rude or insulting just because someone disagrees with me. I just stand by my statements or views & explain why...and continue to explain why if someone continually tries to get me to buckle under. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Tom]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb ViceFanMan:

Lol!!!  You have taken this WAY beyond what it is. That one statement I made earlier, if that’s what you’re trying to base all this on, was just a figure-of-speech of the overall meaning of what you were saying...I never said it was a direct quote from anyone!  

I always try and have a civilized or even friendly discussion on episodes...even if some of us disagree or debate on some things. It can even be fun & interesting. But, I don’t become rude or insulting just because someone disagrees with me. I just stand by my statements or views & explain why...and continue to explain why if someone continually tries to get me to buckle under. 

FYI: you are not worth my time and on my ignore list.

I received several PMs in the meantime from other fans here that have done the same with you for the same reason.

 

[ViceFanMan]

6 hours ago, Tom said:

FYI: you are not worth my time and on my ignore list.

I received several PMs in the meantime from other fans here that have done the same with you for the same reason.

 

Ditto...with both, by the way.  Now, I haven’t just bowed down or buckled under to you & it’s angered you, and you’ve lashed out with rudeness & insults...but let’s get back to the episode.  

 

[Ferrariman]

Guys, everyone is entitled to their personal opinion. That’s why we have a forum, to share “opinions” not arguements.  But once again, here we are.   Do I even have to say it again after all this time? It’s a TV show! Lighten up!

[Ferrariman]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

let’s get back to the episode.  

Great advice! 

[Robbie C.]

17 hours ago, Tom said:

You put words in our mouths that we never said. So it´s a fantasy and I pointed it out to you. No big deal but that´s what is or was. South America was always an important part of the show. Not more and not less.

Central and South America, as you point out, were both huge factors in the show's background, and came to the foreground on a regular basis. The narrative focus was in Miami (duh), but it would have looked very, very different without that element. You also can't forget the political subtext that often ran through Vice, or as Glen Fry put it "the politics of contraband." Freefall was just a heavy-handed attempt to push that back to the foreground.

[Robbie C.]

17 hours ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

"Silent enemy"; I like that (sort of how Lombard was referenced in Season 1 episodes; he was the silent enemy at home, hanging around the margins), and find that to be very true.

Very true. Starting with the pilot itself ("The Columbian") and going all the way through to the end, the presence of Central and South America played a major role. Even in the Burnett arc we have Cliff trying to set up his own deal with a corrupt officer (good old Commandante Salazar from an unnamed "South of the Border" location) to improve the supply chain and cut Burnett out of things. The number of episodes each season that touched on this idea is simply too large to ignore.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Ferrariman said:

Great advice! 

 

 

So, meanwhile back at the...‘episode’ :

I really like what @Miami Beau had stated about the last scene between Crockett & Tubbs: “Let’s take a closer look at the final scene between Crockett and Tubbs. I have studied this scene frame for frame and it’s a wonderful, beautifully shot piece with great cinematography and choice of lighting and music. Clearly a lot of attention has gone on this scene...”

It is an amazing scene, and the cinematography, lighting, background/location, colors, wardrobe, etc...were beautiful! One last little bit of true MV!  These pics are from online and don’t truly capture the scene...but they give you a good idea:

[Miami Beau]

17 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

 

 

So, meanwhile back at the...‘episode’ :

I really like what @Miami Beau had stated about the last scene between Crockett & Tubbs: “Let’s take a closer look at the final scene between Crockett and Tubbs. I have studied this scene frame for frame and it’s a wonderful, beautifully shot piece with great cinematography and choice of lighting and music. Clearly a lot of attention has gone on this scene...”

It is an amazing scene, and the cinematography, lighting, background/location, colors, wardrobe, etc...were beautiful! One last little bit of true MV!  These pics are from online and don’t truly capture the scene...but they give you a good idea:

And ultimately, after I watch this scene I get that “if only” feeling. What if more scenes like this were in Freefall. I understand time constraints and in general, time is money. But given this was the last episode I hoped more scenes would have been given room to breathe.

There are certain scenes I feel were rushed and lacked a punch. Like when Crockett and Tubbs return to Miami and meet Colonel Baker at that fancy building, that was a 1 minute scene with no cuts or close ups. Baker threatens them and a new scene begins. I wish we had Baker elaborate more or have C&T respond. It would have given more weight to the scene. 

Even as I commend the final scene which has been carefully constructed, a brief few moments with Crockett standing inside the St Vitus Dance, maybe looking at pictures of Elvis and Caitlin would of been welcomed. 

Then again, Freefall is very much a product of it’s time and definitely feels like a Season 5 episode that carries on the same tone/visual style from the previous episodes. It feels like a glorified season 5 episode with some minor modified improvements.
 

But hey, as @Tom has mentioned, we should count ourselves lucky we got closure on this amazing show with the finale. I’m a very big Crime Story fan too and the fact there was never no closure to that shows end was a real shame for me. 

[RedDragon86]

The finale should have been about a ghost from the past, I don't know what exactly.

Lao li gets released from prison through corruption and seeks revenge on Marty?/the money that went missing in "Payback" creeps back in?/Maynard returns for the third time and this time he get what he deserves?/Some sort plot involving Charlie Glide?

In would have been amazing if the finale was set in Thailand with Lao Li.

The finale that they produced had no connection to anything they did before and it serves no purpose. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

And ultimately, after I watch this scene I get that “if only” feeling. What if more scenes like this were in Freefall. I understand time constraints and in general, time is money. But given this was the last episode I hoped more scenes would have been given room to breathe.

There are certain scenes I feel were rushed and lacked a punch. Like when Crockett and Tubbs return to Miami and meet Colonel Baker at that fancy building, that was a 1 minute scene with no cuts or close ups. Baker threatens them and a new scene begins. I wish we had Baker elaborate more or have C&T respond. It would have given more weight to the scene. 

Even as I commend the final scene which has been carefully constructed, a brief few moments with Crockett standing inside the St Vitus Dance, maybe looking at pictures of Elvis and Caitlin would of been welcomed. 

Then again, Freefall is very much a product of it’s time and definitely feels like a Season 5 episode that carries on the same tone/visual style from the previous episodes. It feels like a glorified season 5 episode with some minor modified improvements.
 

But hey, as @Tom has mentioned, we should count ourselves lucky we got closure on this amazing show with the finale. I’m a very big Crime Story fan too and the fact there was never no closure to that shows end was a real shame for me. 

 

35 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

The finale should have been about a ghost from the past, I don't know what exactly.

Lao li gets released from prison through corruption and seeks revenge on Marty?/the money that went missing in "Payback" creeps back in?/Maynard returns for the third time and this time he get what he deserves?/Some sort plot involving Charlie Glide?

In would have been amazing if the finale was set in Thailand with Lao Li.

The finale that they produced had no connection to anything they did before and it serves no purpose. 

I agree...they should have done, and could have done, much more & better with the finale! It was planned & they had the time. Granted they were usually only 1hr episodes...but some shows (of course not all—and many weren’t given chances to do one if they were unexpectedly canceled) had been doing planned finale episodes, if they knew it was the end, for a while even by the 80s. 

As for plots of what could/should have been...all those sound awesome!  I also still say it maybe should have been Lombard. They should have really show-cased “World of Trouble” (after getting rid of the Knight Rider-ish HAVOC thing...although I love that show, too ) as the finale. Lombard was at the beginning...he could have ended it all. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

4 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

 

I agree...they should have done, and could have done, much more & better with the finale! It was planned & they had the time. Granted they were usually only 1hr episodes...but some shows (of course not all—and many weren’t given chances to do one if they were unexpectedly canceled) had been doing planned finale episodes, if they knew it was the end, for a while even by the 80s. 

As for plots of what could/should have been...all those sound awesome!  I also still say it maybe should have been Lombard. They should have really show-cased “World of Trouble” (after getting rid of the Knight Rider-ish HAVOC thing...although I love that show, too ) as the finale. Lombard was at the beginning...he could have ended it all. 

I do feel that both the scenery in both Costa Morada & Miami is rushed through, so there's no stopping to smell the roses (I wanted to savor the finale, but couldn't), and I wish there was. I do like the overall plot though, I think it's good, but maybe not an altogether fitting series finale. I totally understand your point of view here, ViceFanMan, wanting the finale played out entirely in Miami, scenery & all. I like what's there, but I wanted more bells and whistles to the whole thing.

How's this for a series finale: There's a small-time drug dealer, played by a woman (I choose Darlanne Fluegel, who is tied with Maria Conchita Alonso as my favorite 1980s tough gal; plus, if "To Live and Die in L.A." castmate Debra Feuer can be in Vice, so can Fluegel) who puts poison in the drug packages, killing many men (men who she isn't involved with, she just likes teasing and killing men). The OCB team (yes, everyone gets to do their part, no babysitting or disappearances) investigates and vets her, which eventually leads to a bust, but she knows the right people in the right places (a little like 'No Exit') and the charges are dropped. Right in front of the courthouse, Crockett & Tubbs drop their badges in disgust, Castillo tries to talk them out of it, and the ending plays out the same. So a little "Black Widow" (without ANY allusion to romance or acquiring wealth) mixed with contaminated drugs like 'Back in the World', and a climax like 'No Exit'.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

I do feel that both the scenery in both Costa Morada & Miami is rushed through, so there's no stopping to smell the roses (I wanted to savor the finale, but couldn't), and I wish there was. I do like the overall plot though, I think it's good, but maybe not an altogether fitting series finale. I totally understand your point of view here, ViceFanMan, wanting the finale played out entirely in Miami, scenery & all. I like what's there, but I wanted more bells and whistles to the whole thing.

How's this for a series finale: There's a small-time drug dealer, played by a woman (I choose Darlanne Fluegel, who is tied with Maria Conchita Alonso as my favorite 1980s tough gal; plus, if "To Live and Die in L.A." castmate Debra Feuer can be in Vice, so can Fluegel) who puts poison in the drug packages, killing many men (men who she isn't involved with, she just likes teasing and killing men). The OCB team (yes, everyone gets to do their part, no babysitting or disappearances) investigates and vets her, which eventually leads to a bust, but she knows the right people in the right places (a little like 'No Exit') and the charges are dropped. Right in front of the courthouse, Crockett & Tubbs drop their badges in disgust, Castillo tries to talk them out of it, and the ending plays out the same. So a little "Black Widow" (without ANY allusion to romance or acquiring wealth) mixed with contaminated drugs like 'Back in the World', and a climax like 'No Exit'.

Cool & Interesting ideas! I’ll be honest and say I never would have thought of Darlanne Fluegel as a cast choice...I think of her from the final season of the cop drama Hunter, where she was one of two females to partner with Fred Dryer, after Stepfanie Kramer left the show. She was first in that last season, but didn’t last. But, maybe she’d of been great for your proposed finale! 

Myself personally, I still wish they’d of maybe done something with Lombard...maybe having his old action (drug smuggling, deals, hits on competition, etc...) suddenly start up again & everybody thinks it’s him taking his business back over...but it’s not him. It’s someone framing him & making it look like Lombard. Come to find out it’s his son, trying to sneak into the business, but still has resentment towards his dad for betraying him earlier in the show. So he uses his father’s old mob business against him in a way, as a form of revenge. Sort of a re-working of “World of Trouble”, and it could still end with a big, shocking, dramatic shooting/death of Al, or his son...sort of like “No Exit”. I don’t necessarily have to have C&T just quit and walk off. But, that’s just me.