Miami Miscellaneous

[jpaul1]

personnally i find this great. but everyone has different tastes

[Dadrian]

It is sad that you can’t drive there anymore, but it was so crowded with pedestrians and vehicles the last few times I went that you couldn’t  enjoy driving on it anyway for trying not to have an accident, and I don’t think that was ever gonna change.

Bright side: At least you can take it all in on foot. 

[summer84]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

personnally i find this great. but everyone has different tastes

I agree. 

[miamijimf]

3 hours ago, Dadrian said:

It is sad that you can’t drive there anymore, but it was so crowded with pedestrians and vehicles the last few times I went that you couldn’t  enjoy driving on it anyway for trying not to have an accident, and I don’t think that was ever gonna change.

Bright side: At least you can take it all in on foot. 

True, for decades its taken a long time to navigate due to all the cars and pedestrians but was easier to drive on certain days and times.  It's a long walk from end to end and not everyone is up to it especially with the heat and humidity.  Actually it started to go downhill a few years ago when they authorized all those clip joint sidewalk cafes in front of the hotels with the huge umbrellas that blocked the view.

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by miamijimf

[Tom]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb miamijimf:

True, for decades its taken a long time to navigate due to all the cars and pedestrians but was easier to drive on certain days and times.  It's a long walk from end to end and not everyone is up to it especially with the heat and humidity.  Actually it started to go downhill a few years ago when they authorized all those clip joint sidewalk cafes in front of the hotels with the huge umbrellas that blocked the view.

 

It seems that politicians worldwide (due to Covid?) are not able anymore to make reasonable&well thought decisions but only extreme&short-sighted ones that lack any common sense. Yes, OD was often jammed but only at certain times and they could have introduced some timeframes where driving is allowed or prohibited instead as a trial.  Or limit traffic at times. First, they allowed cafes to expand by blocking all the sidewalks, now they block traffic which will reduce customer frequency for cafes. No American will WALK with his own feet in heat&humidity and I doubt many tourists (if there will ever be that many tourists) either. Where is the next garage to drop the car close to OD? Is there a concept for tourists and locals? I can´t see any.

Honestly, Sobe as I know it from my time in Miami in early 90s has died. Yes, it was a bit run down but colorful with life and charm. Now, the Art deco buildings are communistic-alike without any colors and sterile like hospitals and most hotels turn into condos or fancy apartments. Most stretches of Collins Ave have no shops and no real street life anymore, just condos.

If they wanted to kill the small rest of tourism in Covid times and turn Miami Beach in a boring museum, they just did the right thing and go ahead. If not, stupid mistake.

[pahonu]

I’m not familiar with the details of Ocean Drive but I have learned a lot about coastal redevelopment over the last 25 years.  I have participated in several community groups here in Long Beach as various redevelopment projects have happened.  What I do know is that these are generally pretty complex problems with far more variables than most people consider.

Probably the most important thing to understand is that, while the population using coastal resources is continually growing, the coastline itself is a fixed resource.  Models of use from decades ago simply aren’t viable with increasing use.  I can’t even count the number of times I’ve heard complaints from people about crowding and how their experiences used to be more enjoyable before.  It would be wonderful if we could turn back the clock to an era of undeveloped coastline and less usage, but it simply can’t happen.

Many of the decisions made here in Long Beach are designed to increase general access, and while it may seem that eliminating cars limits access, it can actually increase overall usage by allowing more pedestrian activities.  I believe that is likely the goal at Ocean Drive.  By way of example I am familiar with, quite a few years ago a neighborhood on the coast here called Belmont Shore, where I lived at the time, proposed reducing lanes of traffic along the main street of the business district.  This street is just a block from the beach and people were up in arms that the plan was to remove a lane of traffic in each direction and widen the sidewalks to promote pedestrian activity.  Seriously, it was a firestorm!

Fast forward about 20 years and this neighborhood has seen greatly increased pedestrian traffic which means $$$.  Business owners who once worried about fewer customers because of fewer traffic  lanes now see more people dining at sidewalk tables, listening to outside entertainment, and generally enjoying a very walkable neighborhood.  Some of the side streets with direct beach access even close completely in the summer months to encourage outdoor activity.  You see families walking, or riding, or skating up the streets, buying food from the restaurants and enjoying the beaches and other coastal resources.  
 

This sidewalk dining also proved to be a lifeline to these restaurants with Covid, and the outdoor beach activities have offered recreational activities during the quarantine.  Unfortunately, the limited coastal resources have once again become problematic with social distancing as more and more seek to use them during the pandemic.  Sorry that got long, but it is a topic I am passionate about and hope to help people understand what is, after all, a very complex issue. 

[airtommy]

Some moron looked at this and said, "Pedestrians just don't have enough space here.  The beach, Lummus Park, and the three wide sidewalks isn't enough.  Let's take that narrow pink strip away from cars."

 

 

 

 

[airtommy]

14 hours ago, Dadrian said:

it was so crowded with pedestrians and vehicles the last few times I went that you couldn’t  enjoy driving on it anyway for trying not to have an accident

That's the funniest thing about this.  The occasional overcrowding on Ocean Drive doesn't affect pedestrians, it is the drivers who are inconvenienced.  This is like killing the patient to cure his ailment.

This whole situation reeks of a city planner having a solution in mind and then hunting for a place to apply it.

[Tom]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb airtommy:

That's the funniest thing about this.  The occasional overcrowding on Ocean Drive doesn't affect pedestrians, it is the drivers who are inconvenienced.  This is like killing the patient to cure his ailment.

This whole situation reeks of a city planner having a solution in mind and then hunting for a place to apply it.

Yes. In other words the hammer and nail story. Someone wanted to apply his personal dogma on others at all costs.
In IT we call that „Reverse Engineering“.

[Matt5]

21 hours ago, miamijimf said:

True, for decades its taken a long time to navigate due to all the cars and pedestrians but was easier to drive on certain days and times.  It's a long walk from end to end and not everyone is up to it especially with the heat and humidity.  Actually it started to go downhill a few years ago when they authorized all those clip joint sidewalk cafes in front of the hotels with the huge umbrellas that blocked the view.

 

Yes I really dislike that when the umbrellas block the beautiful Art Deco buildings behind them. 
I’ve seen no cars or parked cars in effect on Ocean Drive during the Art Deco weekends usually in mid January each year and the umbrellas and cafes come even further out to the edge of the sidewalk so pedestrians can only walk on the road itself. 
With these new regulations in place I’m sure it will be more like that now.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Matt5

[jpaul1]

if you consider the thing on a global warming point of view, this can't be bad. this is what is actually happening in Paris too. they closed (or are planning) lot of roads in Paris. they even planned to close Paris center to automobiles. on a health point of view, i don't see how this is bad

[pahonu]

I didn’t get into this in my previous post because it was getting too long, but traffic was the number one complaint in all the projects I was a part of.  More specifically, the complaints were largely about the inconvenience to drivers because of removal of traffic lanes in favor of more pedestrian space.  Our data showed us some interesting trends.  
 

The residents in the neighborhood were largely supportive of the plans.  The largest number of complaints about slowing traffic came from people outside of the immediate neighborhood.  This seems to indicate that these concerns were about increased commute time.  A several month study showed that traffic through the area would be slowed at peak hours by less than one minute over the approximately half-mile stretch.  I think the number was about 45 seconds.

The decision was made to prioritize the neighborhood resident’s concerns and I fully agree.  These traffic complaints were largely from people using the street in their commute.  In my opinion, if you’re are only passing through, then you don’t get the same say in the matter as the people living there.  Again, I don’t know the details of Ocean Drive but these changes don’t typically just happen by fiat of a local official.  In my experience, residents have major input in these kinds of decisions and certainly voice their opinions.

[Tom]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb pahonu:

I didn’t get into this in my previous post because it was getting too long, but traffic was the number one complaint in all the projects I was a part of.  More specifically, the complaints were largely about the inconvenience to drivers because of removal of traffic lanes in favor of more pedestrian space.  Our data showed us some interesting trends.  
 

The residents in the neighborhood were largely supportive of the plans.  The largest number of complaints about slowing traffic came from people outside of the immediate neighborhood.  This seems to indicate that these concerns were about increased commute time.  A several month study showed that traffic through the area would be slowed at peak hours by less than one minute over the approximately half-mile stretch.  I think the number was about 45 seconds.

The decision was made to prioritize the neighborhood resident’s concerns and I fully agree.  These traffic complaints were largely from people using the street in their commute.  In my opinion, if you’re are only passing through, then you don’t get the same say in the matter as the people living there.  Again, I don’t know the details of Ocean Drive but these changes don’t typically just happen by fiat of a local official.  In my experience, residents have major input in these kinds of decisions and certainly voice their opinions.

Generally true but very unlikely in case of OD. There are no real residents there on OD. Just hotels and cafes. In last years, some hotels have been converted to apartment hotels that include also some people actually living in these apartments instead of just being normal hotel guests for a few days, but I doubt these few had the influcence on such a measure.

I am working in analytics and my experience with such measures without a supporting concept to go along with it (e.g. parking garages and guiding systems for people where to park and where to go, impact analysis of traffic closure, ...) is very bad. In case of OD, the closure will just prevent many "running" potential customer traffic and shift the OD traffic to Collins Ave and other surrounding areas. US and Miami especially is a private transport area with less capable public mass transport systems than lets say European metropolitan areas. People will never drop the car and come to South Beach with the bus or by foot. They go by car (private or Uber) and if they cannot drive on OD they will drive elsewhere in South Beach instead and not leave their car in a garage 3 blocks away and walk over.

And for the global warming aspect brought up above: closing OD for cars has as much impact on global warming as buying one yogurt less in order to sabotage Walmart.  Miami certainly has a huge risk of flooding due to global warming but risk reduction would require much more & severe comprehensive measures and, as said, US in general has a very low share of non-fossile, environmental friendly public transport but a huge share of gasoline based private traffic plus a president who denies global warming at all.

As a funny illustration of my point here: I was once stopped by US police in San Diego for walking by foot from my hotel to a supermarket 400 yards away, as a lonely pedestrian on a sidewalk was too suspicious for the cops. They asked what I was doing, I told them and they  asked "By foot?". I replied: "I am supposed to rent a car for that distance?". LOL!

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tom

[pahonu]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

Generally true but very unlikely in case of OD. There are no real residents there on OD. Just hotels and cafes. In last years, some hotels have been converted to apartment hotels that include also some people actually living in these apartments instead of just being normal hotel guests for a few days, but I doubt these few had the influcence on such a measure.

I am working in analytics and my experience with such measures without a supporting concept to go along with it (e.g. parking garages and guiding systems for people where to park and where to go, impact analysis of traffic closure, ...) is very bad. In case of OD, the closure will just prevent many "running" potential customer traffic and shift the OD traffic to Collins Ave and other surrounding areas. US and Miami especially is a private transport area with less capable public mass transport systems than lets say European metropolitan areas. People will never drop the car and come to South Beach with the bus or by foot. They go by car (private or Uber) and if they cannot drive on OD they will drive elsewhere in South Beach instead and not leave their car in a garage 3 blocks away and walk over.

And for the global warming aspect brought up above: closing OD for cars has as much impact on global warming as buying one yogurt less in order to sabotage Walmart.  Miami certainly has a huge risk of flooding due to global warming but risk reduction would require much more & severe comprehensive measures and, as said, US in general has a very low share of non-fossile, environmental friendly public transport but a huge share of gasoline based private traffic plus a president who denies global warming at all.

As a funny illustration of my point here: I was once stopped by US police in San Diego for walking by foot from my hotel to a supermarket 400 yards away, as a lonely pedestrian on a sidewalk was too suspicious for the cops. They asked what I was doing, I told them and they  asked "By foot?". I replied: "I am supposed to rent a car for that distance?". LOL!

 

That’s interesting you work in analytics.  We worked with a firm in a couple of the committees I was on.  I don’t know the details about Ocean Drive’s process of making the change.  Do you have any details?  I would suspect that business owners probably played a major role in that decision, absent residents.  My initial response was to comments that it was probably done by some incompetent local politician looking for something to do.  It’s just not likely it happened that way.  

With Covid, businesses, particularly restaurants, are searching desperately for outdoor space.  I think that may have played a role.  The particular business district I used as an example has actually created more seating in front of some restaurants by using parking spaces.  In another example, of a restaurant that has been there since the 50’s, the bus stop was moved about a block to give them some outdoor space during the pandemic. 

That’s a funny story about San Diego.  Walking in Southern California is highly dependent on the neighborhood.  My wife and I actually considered walkability when we bought our home, and that was in the 90’s when I don’t think walkability was even used as a word!  Beach communities here, with their highly impacted parking often see residents walking.  People who drive into the area have to find parking and generally walk to their destination too.  It’s quite typical of beach communities but people want to come visit and that’s great.  
 

We personally walk or ride our bikes or, yes, occasionally even use the bus, to get around.  The bus usually happens on days with big events in town like the Grand Prix or the marathon, etc...  Long Beach has many of those kind of events, but it also has a really good transit system which is a bit unusual in the area.  Our kids used it all the time growing up.  Every place is different and I’m sure Miami has it’s own special qualities.  I know we don’t have the level of heat and humidity like South Florida that might discourage walking.  It’s a pleasant Mediterranean climate here, which is itself a great asset. 
 

I added some pics of what I was explaining.

Edited September 26, 2020 by pahonu

[Tom]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb pahonu:

That’s interesting you work in analytics.  We worked with a firm in a couple of the committees I was on.  I don’t know the details about Ocean Drive’s process of making the change.  Do you have any details?  I would suspect that business owners probably played a major role in that decision, absent residents.  My initial response was to comments that it was probably done by some incompetent local politician looking for something to do.  It’s just not likely it happened that way.  

With Covid, businesses, particularly restaurants, are searching desperately for outdoor space.  I think that may have played a role.  The particular business district I used as an example has actually created more seating in front of some restaurants by using parking spaces.  In another example, of a restaurant that has been there since the 50’s, the bus stop was moved about a block to give them some outdoor space during the pandemic. 

I don´t have any details for Ocean Drive. I work in the analytics space but I have to admit that we are not specialized on traffic analysis, but deal with analytical assignments in various industries and sometimes (topic "smart cities"!) traffic including behaviour or movement of car or cellphone users is a big part of data work.

My experience with traffic measures is that impacts can be quite well forecasted, as you normally collect traffic flow data of surrounding areas upfront or you have traffic statistics in many cities already, thus you can well simulate what is means closing a street or turning it into a one-way street. In most cases, closure simply causes displacement of current traffic to other areas, especially when there is no good public transport is available. In case of OD you mostly deal with tourist or leisure time car traffic, not with delivery or commuter traffic. But, it´s just a fact that tourism in US cities is based on private cars and Miami also has the weather issue. It simply too hot and too humid for longer walks by foot.

I lived once in Miami Beach, so I know the city quite well. OD is THE tourist spot in MB and (slow) car traffic there was always part of the game; many people drove specifically to Ocean Drive just to look around and increased business of all OD shops and cafes. If you close that drive, this clientele will not come to OD by foot instead, but rather stop in other areas where they can park better or closer, like Lincoln Road Mall, Collins Ave, etc. 

Of course, COVID could be a justification of such traffic measures, but in this case the crowded sidewalks were caused by the extended seating areas and umbrellas that the city has allowed in recent years. When I lived in MB, sidewalks were free for pedestrians and people could sit in front of the cafes as well. Since then, seating areas on the sidewalk have exploded, so it´s mostly not possible to use the sidewalk anymore. So, if car traffic closure was due to crowded sidewalks and Corona then they have created the problem themselves in the first place.

 

[pahonu]

17 minutes ago, Tom said:

I don´t have any details for Ocean Drive. I work in the analytics space but I have to admit that we are not specialized on traffic analysis, but deal with analytical assignments in various industries and sometimes (topic "smart cities"!) traffic including behaviour or movement of car or cellphone users is a big part of data work.

My experience with traffic measures is that impacts can be quite well forecasted, as you normally collect traffic flow data of surrounding areas upfront or you have traffic statistics in many cities already, thus you can well simulate what is means closing a street or turning it into a one-way street. In most cases, closure simply causes displacement of current traffic to other areas, especially when there is no good public transport is available. In case of OD you mostly deal with tourist or leisure time car traffic, not with delivery or commuter traffic. But, it´s just a fact that tourism in US cities is based on private cars and Miami also has the weather issue. It simply too hot and too humid for longer walks by foot.

I lived once in Miami Beach, so I know the city quite well. OD is THE tourist spot in MB and (slow) car traffic there was always part of the game; many people drove specifically to Ocean Drive just to look around and increased business of all OD shops and cafes. If you close that drive, this clientele will not come to OD by foot instead, but rather stop in other areas where they can park better or closer, like Lincoln Road Mall, Collins Ave, etc. 

Of course, COVID could be a justification of such traffic measures, but in this case the crowded sidewalks were caused by the extended seating areas and umbrellas that the city has allowed in recent years. When I lived in MB, sidewalks were free for pedestrians and people could sit in front of the cafes as well. Since then, seating areas on the sidewalk have exploded, so it´s mostly not possible to use the sidewalk anymore. So, if car traffic closure was due to crowded sidewalks and Corona then they have created the problem themselves in the first place.

 

Lots of changes that wouldn’t otherwise be considered are being made for Covid right now.  With traffic and tourism  generally way down, I think perhaps some of these decisions aren’t weighing traffic considerations as highly.  I’ve only been there once, in the early 90’s, but isn’t Collins just one block over from Ocean Drive?  Also, haven’t large parts of Lincoln Road been closed to vehicles and entirely pedestrian for the last decade or so?  It used to be just Lincoln Road and now it’s Lincoln Road Mall.  Foot traffic has been underestimated by many municipalities over the last several decades but many have made changes and seen success.  Probably no where more than Southern California and it’s car culture, but it is changing, and with Covid, perhaps more quickly in some cases.

One if the firms we worked with specialized in pedestrian analytics and I learned quite a bit.  They showed data from previous projects, I think San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara if I remember correctly.   It showed foot traffic increased overall sales in both business districts that had reduced parking on the main street in front of the businesses,  but added additional parking in various lots and parking structures behind the main street.  Essentially, when people went to the area for a particular store, they had to walk by many others on the way and often stopped  in at other stores.  Street front parking allowed customers to pull up, walk right in, and pull out, never stopping anywhere else.  
 

Now this may be considered less convenient for any individual shopper, and business owner at the time voiced serious concerns about losing parking spaces in front of their stores, but overall foot traffic and sales increased.  They haven’t reversed course and this was in the 90’s.  Like Ocean Drive, the main street in Santa Barbara, State Street, has closed a multi—block section to just pedestrians in the last few months.  It’s proving very popular from what I’ve read.  Some of these changes seem counterintuitive to many, but the data for increased revenue holds up.

[miamijimf]

Especially like these comments by Tom: "And for the global warming aspect brought up above: closing OD for cars has as much impact on global warming as buying one yogurt less in order to sabotage Walmart.  It simply too hot and too humid for longer walks by foot. and  So, if car traffic closure was due to crowded sidewalks and Corona then they have created the problem themselves in the first place."  

[Tom]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb pahonu:

Lots of changes that wouldn’t otherwise be considered are being made for Covid right now.  With traffic and tourism  generally way down, I think perhaps some of these decisions aren’t weighing traffic considerations as highly.  I’ve only been there once, in the early 90’s, but isn’t Collins just one block over from Ocean Drive?  Also, haven’t large parts of Lincoln Road been closed to vehicles and entirely pedestrian for the last decade or so?  It used to be just Lincoln Road and now it’s Lincoln Road Mall.  Foot traffic has been underestimated by many municipalities over the last several decades but many have made changes and seen success.  Probably no where more than Southern California and it’s car culture, but it is changing, and with Covid, perhaps more quickly in some cases.

One if the firms we worked with specialized in pedestrian analytics and I learned quite a bit.  They showed data from previous projects, I think San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara if I remember correctly.   It showed foot traffic increased overall sales in both business districts that had reduced parking on the main street in front of the businesses,  but added additional parking in various lots and parking structures behind the main street.  Essentially, when people went to the area for a particular store, they had to walk by many others on the way and often stopped  in at other stores.  Street front parking allowed customers to pull up, walk right in, and pull out, never stopping anywhere else.  
 

Now this may be considered less convenient for any individual shopper, and business owner at the time voiced serious concerns about losing parking spaces in front of their stores, but overall foot traffic and sales increased.  They haven’t reversed course and this was in the 90’s.  Like Ocean Drive, the main street in Santa Barbara, State Street, has closed a multi—block section to just pedestrians in the last few months.  It’s proving very popular from what I’ve read.  Some of these changes seem counterintuitive to many, but the data for increased revenue holds up.

Lincoln Road Mall is a pedestrian zone with no cars. But it is one of the tourist magnets in MB due to many shops and restaurants. 

OD has mostly hotels and cafes, hardly an shops. Collins Ave and Washington Ave have most shops and pedestrian traffic close to OD which is one block off Collins.

I agree with your comments. Generally it is desirable to have more foot traffic than cars. But: MB has very few inhabitants in relation to visitor numbers. They need tourists otherwise they are broke and Corona will work against tourism anyway.

MB overall have closed most shops on stretches like Collins Ave in the last 30 years, especially between 15-25th street and replaced it with condos. Condo owners park in garages. So with less shops but more condos they "chocked" off a lot of foot traffic including good street life in MB. And with remaining shops all centered around less space in South Beach you force many people use their cars to buy food or other products. 

My theory is: closing OD for cars should be supported by 1) garage concept ("park and walk") for day visitors and 2) having more small shops & street life to attract foot traffic which will only work with lots of shops and not with condos. Otherwise, it will just reduce business for OD cafes and hotels and ultimately kick OD/South Beach back where it was before VICE: a deserted place only inhabited by the elderly, but this time with white clinical Art Deco walk instead of a colorful one.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tom

[pahonu]

1 minute ago, Tom said:

Lincoln Road Mall is a pedestrian zone with no cars. But it is one of the tourist magnets in MB due to many shops and restaurants. 

OD has mostly hotels and cafes, hardly an shops. Collins Ave and Washington Ave have most shops and pedestrian traffic close to OD which is one block off Collins.

I agree with your comments. Generally it is desirable to have more foot traffic than cars. But: MB overall have closed most shops on stretches like Collins Ave in the last 30 years, especially between 15-25th street and replaced it with condos. Condo owners park in garages. So with less shops but more condos they "chocked" off a lot of foot traffic including good street life in MB. And with remaining shops all centered around less space in South Beach you force many people use their cars to buy food or other products. 

My theory is: closing OD for cars should be supported by 1) garage concept ("park and walk") for day visitors and 2) having more small shops & street life to attract foot traffic which will only work with lots of shops and not with condos. Otherwise, it will just reduce business for OD cafes and hotels.

That’s too bad about so many shops closing on OD.  Your theory is exactly what was done in the two examples I explained, and it proved successful.  Here’s hoping that OD will see some success as well.  One of the newer things I’ve seen in terms of improving street life here in Long Beach is actually the very old concept of mixed use, which all but disappeared.  Several new condo complexes in the downtown have commercial space at street level.  There are several cranes active there now and I’ve been following some of the projects.  We need more housing badly so the construction is good to see in general, but it’s really good to see they are considering the street level in a more community friendly way. 
 

Miami Beach is it’s own municipality, correct?  Perhaps, this is all part of a broader plan?  Long Beach is actually quite a large city and most people don’t realize it, being in the shadow of LA.  It has almost half a million people.  Fortunately it has a pretty good plan in place for future development, at least compared to others I’ve compared it to, which in many cases is little to no plan at all.  I also think most residents have no idea about all these kinds of planning considerations.

I have to say that I’m really enjoying this discussion.  I want to go back to Miami now.  It’s been so long!

[jpaul1]

(responding to before last post)

yeah but there was lot of show in OD (Rolls, Lambos..). this contributed to the gentrification of the area. and this is why now you have expensive condos there. by removing  this you get a chance to get that old Miami back, the one whose streets smelt fried food. and where you can get a great coffee for cheap. as on foot there is no show anymore

i don't say it will work, but why not, dreaming of seing the prices getting lower there. and then see what you say restaurants, coffee sellers. i'm convinced that lot of people don't care of Miami, but buy there just to be seen in their fancy cars. and contributing to the prices explosion we witnessed there. with MV there had been a kinda hype about Miami. while most don't even know what the old Miami looked to. old Miami was a communities city, a big village, so far from the Ferrari, and Lambos show we are witnessing today

you have electricity assisted bicycles today, that are more or less equal to cars in term of range, and effort. i mean with these bicycles you can easily do 20 km in a day without any effort. then it's also a state of mind. i don't know enough about Americans to tell their dependency to cars. but i know Americans are humans, so if a European can do it why not them

 

14 minutes ago, pahonu said:

... it’s really good to see they are considering the street level in a more community friendly way.

this is exactly what i was trying to say. a 'degentrification'

Edited September 26, 2020 by jpaul1

[Tom]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb pahonu:

 One of the newer things I’ve seen in terms of improving street life here in Long Beach is actually the very old concept of mixed use, which all but disappeared.  Several new condo complexes in the downtown have commercial space at street level.  

Miami Beach is it’s own municipality, correct?  Perhaps, this is all part of a broader plan?  Long Beach is actually quite a large city and most people don’t realize it, being in the shadow of LA.  It has almost half a million people.  Fortunately it has a pretty good plan in place for future development, at least compared to others I’ve compared it to, which in many cases is little to no plan at all.  I also think most residents have no idea about all these kinds of planning considerations.

I have to say that I’m really enjoying this discussion.  I want to go back to Miami now.  It’s been so long!

No mixed use in MB in these condo areas. A good example is the 20-22 street stretch with Wolfie´s and the Gayety Burlesque fronts we all know from the series. Vis a vis were lots of hotels (The Sasson) and tourist shops. On 22nd there was a hotel complex as well with lots of shops vis a vis and clubs (Club Nu) and a pharmacy. 

Look what there is today. The Setai (expensive condo) replaced the Sasson and another condo complex the 22nd street hotel (was a good mid class hotel with 3-4*). All the shops and clubs are gone. Only condos all these 3 blocks on Collins. As a consequence, there is no foot traffic there anymore.Just cars driving through.

If MB ever had a concept than it was one for replacing normal residential areas with expensive condos and this concept will prove to be a killer for the city with Corona and all its consequences (less jobs, less income, less tourism). Now they need to shift into reverse gear. Build up residential areas where also non-millionaires can live and shop if tourism is in free fall.

[pahonu]

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

No mixed use in MB in these condo areas. A good example is the 20-22 street stretch with Wolfie´s and the Gayety Burlesque fronts we all know from the series. Vis a vis were lots of hotels (The Sasson) and tourist shops. On 22nd there was a hotel complex as well with lots of shops vis a vis and clubs (Club Nu) and a pharmacy. 

Look what there is today. The Setai (expensive condo) replaced the Sasson and another condo complex the 22nd street hotel (was a good mid class hotel with 3-4*). All the shops and clubs are gone. Only condos all these 3 blocks on Collins. As a consequence, there is no foot traffic there anymore.Just cars driving through.

If MB ever had a concept than it was one for replacing normal residential areas with expensive condos and this concept will prove to be a killer for the city with Corona and all its consequences (less jobs, less income, less tourism). Now they need to shift into reverse gear. Build up residential areas where also non-millionaires can live and shop if tourism is in free fall.

Perhaps you’re right.  Covid could be the push Miami Beach needs to go in a different direction.  There are so many examples in history of tragic events fundamentally altering cities.  I’m thinking historically of fires, floods, earthquakes, etc... but who knows what lasting changes this pandemic might bring?  It’s hard to imagine everything will just return to what it was.  Of course, slow moving crises, like rising sea level don’t seem to elicit the same response, so maybe the pandemic won’t either.

Where are you writing from?  If you don’t mind me asking.

[Tom]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb pahonu:

Perhaps you’re right.  Covid could be the push Miami Beach needs to go in a different direction.  There are so many examples in history of tragic events fundamentally altering cities.  I’m thinking historically of fires, floods, earthquakes, etc... but who knows what lasting changes this pandemic might bring?  It’s hard to imagine everything will just return to what it was.  Of course, slow moving crises, like rising sea level don’t seem to elicit the same response, so maybe the pandemic won’t either.

Where are you writing from?  If you don’t mind me asking.

Currently writing from Vienna, Austria. Long way from Miami 

2 mio people in city, 3 mio in metro area, fastest growing EU city. But car traffic down to 35% (still lots of traffic), public transport more than 50% of all traffic (unlimited pass full year 365 bucks - 1 buck per day), rest is bicycles. 50% of city space is parks and woods. Here we also have huge discussions with traffic displacement and what it means to open bike lanes instead of car lanes.

Example here: One main street with car traffic and subway underneath was converted into a ped/bike/limited car zone. Result: much less customers for shops with high end/bigger merchandise that subsequently closed. Now lots of street life with bikes and foot traffic and cafes but most shops with cellphone and lower end stuff that is less attractive and attracts less spending audience. Shop-owners complain. No real shopping street anymore. That exactly was my prediction as there was no concept for this most likely outcome. "Green politicians" saw it otherwise. They want to live in the middle of a city without car traffic but buy their organic high end groceries in supermarkets that need truck delivery. Both things do not go together.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tom

[pahonu]

19 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

(responding to before last post)

yeah but there was lot of show in OD (Rolls, Lambos..). this contributed to the gentrification of the area. and this is why now you have expensive condos there. by removing  this you get a chance to get that old Miami back, the one whose streets smelt fried food. and where you can get a great coffee for cheap. as on foot there is no show anymore

i don't say it will work, but why not, dreaming of seing the prices getting lower there. and then see what you say restaurants, coffee sellers. i'm convinced that lot of people don't care of Miami, but buy there just to be seen in their fancy cars. and contributing to the prices explosion we witnessed there. with MV there had been a kinda hype about Miami. while most don't even know what the old Miami looked to. old Miami was a communities city, a big village, so far from the Ferrari, and Lambos show we are witnessing today

you have electricity assisted bicycles today, that are more or less equal to cars in term of range, and effort. i mean with these bycicles you can easily do 20 km in a day without any effort. then it's also a state of mind. i don't know enough about Americans to tell their dependency to cars. but i know Americans are humans, so if a European can do it why not them

 

this is exactly what i was trying to say. a 'degentrification'

Many cities in the US have been quite progressive in this respect, others not so much.   US cities are much more car-centric than in Europe because of their relatively young age by comparison.  Many of these cities grew to prominence in the era of the automobile, particularly those in the west and south.  Theshe cities were built in fundamentally different ways than older US cities and certainly those of Europe. They are far less compact so transit proves more complex and costly and the automobile reigns.  My wife and I personally value walkability and chose our place of residence with that it mind.  I have no regrets about this decision after over 20 years, but many Americans never consider this.

[pahonu]

4 minutes ago, Tom said:

Currently writing from Vienna, Austria. Long way from Miami 

2 mio people in city, 3 mio in metro area, fastest growing EU city. But car traffic down to 35% (still lots of traffic), public transport more than 50% of all traffic (unlimited pass full year 365 bucks - 1 buck per day), rest is bicycles. 50% of city space is parks and woods. Here we also have huge discussions with traffic displacement and what it means to open bike lanes instead of car lanes.

Wow, that’s awesome! ... and you are certainly a long way from Miami.  Long Beach has set a goal of becoming the most bike-friendly city in the US and has added many miles of bike lanes in the last few years.  I’m seeing more and more riders too, so it can happen in the US.  It also has one of the best transit systems in Southern California, as I mentioned before, and we won a national award for best parks and recreation system a few years back.  So I’m not complaining.  I’m also not complaining about the weather or the beach either.  
 

There are so many architectural landmarks I want to see in Vienna!